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Between belief and reality PDF Print
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Tuesday, 15 July 2008 12:48

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As Kofi Annan said in his speech to the United Nations, “We are all children of Abraham.” Yes, if the Jews, Christians and Muslims understand this then they will also understand that our religion is the religion of Abraham.

NO HOLDS BARRED

Raja Petra Kamarudin 

My articles on Islam always produce the same results. Those not of the Islamic faith will clap and cheer and urge me on. Those of the Islamic faith will declare I am doing Islam a great injustice and disservice. Actually, what I say is not ‘news’ to most people. What I write is something they already believe. They only needed someone else to say it so that they can jump on the bandwagon and join the cheering squad. It really does not matter what I say and whether I say it or not. Their minds had already been made up long ago anyway.

Muslims will react negatively to any adverse or unfavourable comments about the way Islam is being practiced or about the deplorable conduct of Muslims as if Prophet Muhammad himself is being criticised. To Muslims there is no such as constructive criticism. Such things do not exist. Criticism is destructive, never constructive, never mind if the criticism is founded. Criticism, in fact, must be met with violence and bloodshed.

Muslims have to understand one thing. Religion is something personal between you and God. Most people are quite prepared to leave it at that. But when religion is imposed upon others, or their lives are affected by religion, then religion is no longer personal. You have just dragged religion into the public domain so it now has to suffer public scrutiny. If you want others to stay out of your religion, then your religion has to stay out of their lives as well.

Muslims have this impression that since Islam is the official religion of this country, then Islam can dominate the lives of every citizen. How would Muslims react if Christianity is declared the official religion of Australia and therefore Christianity is allowed to dominate the lives of everyone who resides in Australia? Would not Australian Muslims become outraged?

You are free to wear a headscarf if you so believe that your religion makes it mandatory to wear one. You certainly can’t force others to wear a headscarf as much as the government can’t force you to not wear one. Ironically, a ‘Christian’ country like England (or is it France?) allows the Muslim policewomen to wear a headscarf while a Muslim country like Turkey bans the use of the headscarf. You can see lovely Muslim women in police uniforms walking around in a headscarf while Muslim students in Turkey have to remove their headscarf just before they enter the gate of their university. One Muslim lady Member of Parliament was evicted from the building because she insisted on entering Turkey’s Parliament wearing a headscarf.

Watch television. All day and all night long, everyone talks about Islam. They talk about Islamic hub, Islamic food production, Islamic banking, Islamic financing, Islamic insurance, Islamic investments, Islamic laws, and whatnot. They talk about forcing people to pray five times a day, arresting Muslims who don’t fast, arresting Muslims who drink and gamble, arresting Muslims who indulge in extramarital sex, and much more. They want separate swimming pools and checkout counters for men and women. They want to ban lipstick, high heels and bareback clothes.

But that is all they talk about. They talk about form. They do not talk about substance. They talk about the Shariah of Islam. They ignore the Akidah of Islam. They talk about the Hadith saying this and that. They refuse to touch on what the Quran says. They focus on what Islam should look like. However, what Islam should be like escapes their attention.

Sure, we don’t speak Arabic, so we can’t read the Quran since it is in Arabic. And we are not allowed to read the Quran in English since it is a mere translation and we should not read translations since translations may not be accurate and may be full of errors. How do we read the Quran then? Well, we first have to learn Arabic. But 99% of Malays don’t speak Arabic. So what do we do? Well, then we go look for a guru who will explain the Quran to us.

Okay, I can buy that. But will the guru explain the Quran in its ‘correct’ language, Arabic, or will he explain it in the language we understand, English? Of course the guru will explain the Quran in English (or Bahasa Malaysia as the case may be).

Is not, then, the guru explaining a translated version of the Quran -- English or Bahasa Malaysia -- and not in its original language? What’s the difference then? Are we not receiving a translated explanation of the Quran? Since the guru is speaking to us in English or Bahasa Malaysia, is this not also a translated version of the Quran?

Okay, the guru speaks both Arabic and English (or Bahasa Malaysia), so he knows what he is talking. Hello…..the chap who translated the Quran into English (or Bahasa Malaysia) also speaks Arabic. Why is the English translation of the Quran not accurate whilst the guru who is speaking to us in a non-Arabic language accurate?

Take the Hadith as another example. The original Hadith are also in Arabic. But we are allowed to read the English or Bahasa Malaysia translation of the Hadith. That is okay. That is accurate. But not the English or Bahasa Malaysia translation of the Quran. That is not on. That is not accurate. Why are we allowed to read the Hadith in a language we understand but we can’t do the same thing when it comes to the Quran? When it comes to the Quran we must go seek the help of a guru to translate it for us. Yes, it is still a translation since the guru is not speaking to us in Arabic.

Let us now go to the word ‘Islam’. What is Islam? What is the religion of Islam? Islam merely means to submit. So what then is the religion or system or way of life that we are asked to submit to? The Quran has already made this point very clear and it is actually very simple but Muslims prefer to make it complex. The Quran says very clearly that all those who follow the religion of Abraham are the true submitters, be they followers of Moses or Jesus. Note this point. The true submitters are those of the faith of Moses and Jesus who subscribe to the religion of Abraham. Do you see Muhammad’s name mentioned anywhere in that doctrine?

Prophet Muhammad himself declared that he is not inventing a new religion but merely reminding the Arabs to revert to the correct religion before this. And this was exactly the same message brought by Moses and Jesus. Jesus, in fact, was a Jew and he died a Jew. As much as Christians may whack me for this, I have to say it because I believe this to be so and it is my duty to say what I believe, not to say what will make people love me.

Jesus did not ask his followers to invent a new religion and neither did Muhammad. And Moses before that also wanted his followers to do the same thing. And what the three great Prophets of the people of the book asked of us was exactly the same thing, to revert to the religion of Abraham.

That is the Akidah of Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. And these three great Prophets are united on this doctrine. The rest that divide us is the Shariah. Each religion has its own Shariah. And the Shariah is translated into rituals.

In fact, the Shariah has also divided the three religions to the point they are embroiled in internal conflicts. Yes, the rituals or Shariah have badly divided us -- inter- and intra-religion. And these same rituals or Shariah that have divided us have made us forget that we are united in Akidah.

Go back to the Akidah of Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. It is there in the Quran. And the Quran explains that this Akidah is the Akidah of Abraham. As Kofi Annan said in his speech to the United Nations, “We are all children of Abraham.” Yes, if the Jews, Christians and Muslims can only understand this then they will also understand that our religion is the religion of Abraham. And this is what the Quran says. And this is what Muhammad said. And Kofi Annan understood this. But the Jews, Christians and Muslims do not. And that is why we are at war with each other.

Comments (136)Add Comment
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written by ctchoolaw, July 15, 2008 12:52:57
Here's a non-Muslim clapping and cheering again! RPK forever! http://ctchoolaw.********.com/
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written by BORN FREE, July 15, 2008 12:59:44
All religions are inter-related some way or other.
All religions teaches good habits. No religion in the world is BAD. It is the one that preaches,that sends out wrong informations, instigating the followers
to their advantage. Respect each other's religion and we will live in harmony!
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written by Hakim Abdullah, July 15, 2008 13:03:05
Excellent!
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written by RFernandez, July 15, 2008 13:05:47
RPK you have been truly blessed by Allah with an open mind. If only all citizen of Malaysia had an open mind like yours, we will never see the suffering and strife that we see today. May peace be with you always.
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written by danchung, July 15, 2008 13:08:57
smilies/smiley.gifvery good one YM
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written by malaysianohope, July 15, 2008 13:09:04
Abang,
It is not that the Non Muslims are egging you on but out of concern that the laws might impinge on their rights especially in Malaysia. As far as I'm concern I speak out not so much as to cheer you on but to ask & understand & hence mitigate the implications if it is imposed on Malaysians regardless of religious beliefs. By engaging Abang & other Muslims we can get clearer pictures of Islam on the basis of knowledge & I thank you for that.
"Substance over Form"! How true especially on the ritual aspects of the religion instead of from the heart!
That Musa is a disgrace to his English name!

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written by Mik, July 15, 2008 13:12:28
"So many gods, so many creeds, so many paths that wind and wind,
while just the art of being kind is all the sad world needs"
-Ella W. Wilcox
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written by Frankfurtguy, July 15, 2008 13:17:36
Good article about a common belief among human being, bravo RPK!!

All religions teach good things
But human being, being a human being, interpret religions in their own way(s)
that's why conflicts happen

If all of us have such an open-mind thinking like RPK
The world is truly a better place..........
smilies/kiss.gif
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written by slash n burn, July 15, 2008 13:20:52
"But when religion is imposed upon others, or their lives are affected by religion, then religion is no longer personal"

Other than jihad, this is the most disturbing about Islam.
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written by omarkhayyam, July 15, 2008 13:29:26
Pete,

ur opening line kinda summarizes it all .... like the religion our politics is devoid of substance

i puke each time i hear parliamentarians debating as much as i throw up when hearing religious "guru" chant mantra that sounds like a recorded voice mail box

sure do wonder where we are taking this and the coming generation ..... probably to the route of zimbabwe

cheers
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written by lakshy, July 15, 2008 13:31:33
But the Gov't, maybe umno, does not want the muslims to have an open mind. Heck they dont even want the muslims to understand the Quran. If the muslims have an open mind, then they may be facing more RPKs. And that would be their demise.

Keeping the minds closed, they shout out about ketuanan melayu and how umno is the protector of this. And this is merely playing to the gallery to attract the most support, as Che Det is doing now. Its playing on racial sentiments. Waaay to go! Whats that going to do to us? Place us another 20 years behind our neighbours?

Hows that going to help malaysia? Hows Ketuanan Melayu going to help Malaysia? Its time for all of us to work as Malaysians and pull together, instead of have Singapore laugh at us as we pull in different directions, and let the country's wealth get plundered by the politicians.

smilies/kiss.gif
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written by Paramjothy, July 15, 2008 13:31:59
I must say your article is well written and prsented. I hope the good muslims realize what you have said.
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written by Thamipoh, July 15, 2008 13:32:33
RPK:
Greetings, Please be assured that no born again christian is going to "whack" you for saying what you have said. I believe that you are trying to tell the Malaysian rakyat that believers of the three mentioned religions actually belong to one big familly and each member of the big family relates to God in his own way and be responsible to none but God Himself. I buy all these and is willing to be "whacked" together with you (if you done mind) if the whacking comes from the christians.
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written by panca, July 15, 2008 13:36:19
Between belief and reality


What about the 'act' of swearing.....

‘He’ swear in the name of god

It is a right as a human, muslim, christian, or from any other religions to do so and must be respected. But that is also between one and his God. None will not have a say and will accept in what a person wants to do with his god. But is it going to end what a person does, that is, swearing to his god. No doubt believers will agree that a person will be subjected to whatever punishment when he/she leaves this world but let’s say if one believes in the retribution(punishment) of god, doesn’t one will also be punished for doing bad even one does NOT swear?

So what is the swearing for besides to “authenticate” a questionable incident? Will we accept while it ends right here and begins ‘repayment’ only when a life does not walk the earth? Yes, we know swearing is to prove one’s innocence? But will there be anyone using(abusing) the name of god (even he may be punished by god as believers agree upon judgment day) in order to escape the law of the land? Yes, one will be punished by god whether one swears or not. Yes, one will be deemed to be truthful upon his swearing, if not, one will be punished afterlife, that is beautiful, that is rightful, that is gracious, that is unquestionably good but that is also punishable even one does NOT swear.

Yes, by all means, one must be punished by god in the afterlife, that is also proper. But what about the full extent of the law of the land, ain’t it proper too before one comes before his god? Yes, let god deal with that person(swear or no swear), which is between god and a person and it will be punishment for one but isn’t there more should be done, for god does that in the afterlife. Does that mean a person is protected from being subjected to the law of the land while waiting for god to punish him, though, yes absolutely, god will punish him in the afterlife. The followers of Abrahamic religions will attest to this punishment and is correct they be dealt with in the afterlife, yes it must be fully supported that one must be thoroughly punished upon judgment day.

But are we doing justice in the eye of god by not deliberating it in the law of the land before the law of god? Can we have the rule of law of the land so that not only god does what god does, punish or praise, by also not shaking off our responsibilities and leaving it to god‘s role upon entering the afterlife? We certainly want god to punish them in the afterlife (swear or no swear, deny or no deny) yes, god is the greatest, god must severely punish not only one that swear or no swear but as long as one that commits a crime, in the afterlife. Are we not subject to the law of the land when a crime is committed or whether as alleged, accused, are we not subject to a full investigation (transparent and fair) so that the process of the law is served? Next is, where are the god’s servants in the rule of the law of the land?

The other most important question is, can one enter into religion, does wrong, then swears or maybe gets applauded in a gathering of believers in god, be exempted from the rule and process of the law of the land because one swears in his words? Does god want to protect the wrong people or is it human that is using(abusing) his name in vain by swearing in his name, ends there and awaits (what believers believe), “wait for god to punish that person”?

Can a human being question as to the rights of rule of the law of the land so that it be used on a person which might be of national interest(be it a political leader or otherwise), that due process of the law of the land be applied in its full extent, for if not it will affect the country, its people of all races as a whole?

Last question is, can also God be 'JUDGING believers' awaiting his judgment on the person who commits a crime?
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written by Thian, July 15, 2008 13:37:55
Exactly, what aware conscious being aspire to.

When lesser and mundane consciouness person, who indulge with only forms and have no sense of any awakening, try to propogate their religion of forms to me is what is most repulsive.

Thank you RPK, for raising the consiousness of Malaysian.

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written by patzplaze, July 15, 2008 13:43:49
I always look forward to your articles on Islam. For I believe that it is only when we know, that we can understand each other. So thank you for this one.

As a confused and always-learning former catholic, I find that there is a common thread that binds us all - believers and non-belivers alike. And that is to do good, to love each other, and live in peace.

I also think that it is those who weild the power in religion that make things askew. And since it is so fragile, this peace we all seek, I feel that there is no place for politics in religion. And so, religion and the state should be separate.

Salam.
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written by Dominic, July 15, 2008 13:45:47
Even if people of different faith want to go their seperate way and advoid getting into direct contact, fine, why have to fight and kill one another ? There should be a world order that should ensure universal adherence . The fact is, Muslims and other believers fight because of power and greed, oil, for example. The super power can come into play if only they are serious in wanting real peace. If animals fight,we can understand. But mankind, if they fight, they are no better than animals !
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written by ellyna, July 15, 2008 13:54:46
Fantastic, YM RPK! Form over substance. If only everyone saw things from your perspective, the world would have been a beautiful, peaceful place to live in.
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written by Ann Meng Sim, July 15, 2008 14:00:28
I have many Muslim friends and I notice that those Muslims who mix with people of all races are more open-minded.

Those who only stick among themselves and their own kind .... they are the ones who run amuk the minute someone says they don't like about Islam. Note, I wrote "say something they don't like".

People should be given choices over the type of religion they choose to believe in and to embrace.

Nobody should be forced into a religion they have no faith in. And if he chooses not to have a religion, then it is his choice.

Nobody (whether a monk, a priest, an imam etc) has the right to force their religion on another human being. It is just not right.

Why can't everyone just live peacefully with each other and respect the beliefs of others?

BTW, I am a Buddhist. My parents are Christians. My brother's girlfriend is a Muslim. My other brother is also a Buddhist.

Sooner or later my brother will have to convert to Islam so that he can marry his girlfriend. There is no other way he can marry her if he does not convert. As he is not ready to convert yet, she waits patiently.

The most important thing, though, is we are one happy family. Meal times are when all of us sit together to eat and talk and joke. smilies/smiley.gif
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written by Ranulaw, July 15, 2008 14:00:34
Religion has been used as a tool to control mankind for centuries and continues as such. Luckily advanced civilizations have made it a "personal belief" & use the rule of law to govern. Perhaps they realise how much damage has been caused by it.
Just to provoke the believers, "Is it really so bad if God does not exist?" More people have been killed in the name of God than any other.
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written by shamadz72, July 15, 2008 14:01:26
"And these same rituals or Shariah that have divided us have made us forget that we are united in Akidah."

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As much as I respect you, I have to disagree with you on this matter. (I know I will be whack or voted down soon by those who don't share the same view as I am soon).

"Akidah" in Arabic means "Kepercayaan" in Malaysian language. So how can we, who believed in "the one and only god and there is no other god beside him" share the same akidah with those who believed in "Trinity"?

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written by Raja Petra, July 15, 2008 14:07:03
Dear shamadz72, AKIDAH means the rope that binds us to God. Jews, Christians and Muslims are all 'bound' by this 'rope' to believe in the same, one God.
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written by 98PercentPrimate, July 15, 2008 14:10:34
That is why we do NOT read a lot of negative comments relating to Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism. Most of the negative comments from worldwide are related to Abrahamic religions, which at present, is especially from activities of extremist Muslims (& some moderates). As I see it, it is as simply as adopting the Golden Rule to avoid all these negative comments. QED.

Muslims have to understand one thing. Religion is something personal between you and God. Most people are quite prepared to leave it at that. But when religion is imposed upon others, or their lives are affected by religion, then religion is no longer personal. You have just dragged religion into the public domain so it now has to suffer public scrutiny. If you want others to stay out of your religion, then your religion has to stay out of their lives as well.Wow.. that's a very humane statement from a very enlightened human being.

Despite Muslims insisting that Islam is a complete way of life, the spiritual/religious element of humans activities must be identified, separated and practiced independent, parallel and supporting other human activities. There are sufficient evidences from Christianity, as practiced few hundred years ago, to show that it is not efficient to mix religion into and messing with every other aspect of human life.

Brain wise, the spiritual wires inside the human brain must not be heavily entangled with other neural programs, except to inhibit primal passions and act as secondary support to other neural programs.

IMO, it is critical to understand that there is a core generic spiritual process
http://beinghuman-humannature....-path.html
common in each human which is supported by the appropriate neural programs in the brain and mind.

Thus each human being must ensure that they adopt the positive teachings from their respective religion, that would activate that generic spiritual progress to develop their level of spirituality. They avoid verses and teachings that are likely to enhance the negatives impulses the lower brain. For a start they must understand themselves, and their own human nature.
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written by Ranulaw, July 15, 2008 14:12:35
shamadz72, u are a fine example of good people led astray by ur so called understanding of ur religion.
Just because somebody else believes in the "Trinity" means he can't be share in ur "Kepercayaan"? He may not believe in exactly the same thing but can't he share a little of it? Must he be ur "enemy" then because he doesn't believe in totality with u?
Why can we realise our brothers & sisters can believe what they like as long as they don't impose nor harm us.
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written by Steven Tan, July 15, 2008 14:14:14
Dear RPK,

To be honest, RPK is the most suitable person to lead the country. Suppose if you stand for the election my vote will definitely go for you. How about you all guys????
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written by Thian, July 15, 2008 14:15:22
Ask me to move forward, I am prepared to listen and evaluate the proposal.

Ask me to move backward, because of their limited mind; then it is an assault and insult to me and mankind.

When a bunch of limited conscious 'person' who profess Islam and Ketuanan Melayu in the same breath, it is blatant and clear they are only hypocrites. That is why the country is riddle with so many wayang kulit and a laughing stock to the world.

Malaysia is governed by such people. Immoral people breads more immorality.

If the good people do not stand up from any religion or race or gender or age we are in for more gloom and doom.

Many Malaysian have already awakened to this. That is why we have great repulsion to these folly acts of primitive beings. What separates an animal from human is compassion. The less they have compassion the more primitive they are.

They will use religion to put a frontal veil to hoodwink the rest of us. For that matter any issue to separate. They beings are still in the exclusive consciousness.

I thank RPK for raising to the higher consciousness of inclusiveness for all Malaysia.
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written by usurper, July 15, 2008 14:15:34
"Muslims have to understand one thing. Religion is something personal between you and God. Most people are quite prepared to leave it at that. But when religion is imposed upon others, or their lives are affected by religion, then religion is no longer personal. You have just dragged religion into the public domain so it now has to suffer public scrutiny. If you want others to stay out of your religion, then your religion has to stay out of their lives as well."

If only the human race would see the wisdom of the above statement, world peace would be attained immediately. RPK you can write to kingdom come, but if fools aplenty do not want to see the truth, namely the substance from the form, then no amount of writing would change them. Only the whip or a firing squad would do the trick!
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written by panca, July 15, 2008 14:21:02
written by patzplaze, July 15, 2008 | 13:43:49 ...And so, religion and the state should be separate.


That's what a political analyst in the US(presidential election) on CNN said, "It is very dangerous to be based on beliefs"
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written by teo siew chin, July 15, 2008 14:23:55
"Dear shamadz72, AKIDAH means the rope that binds us to God. Jews, Christians and Muslims are all 'bound' by this 'rope' to believe in the same, one God."
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And there we are! The words of God are all in the same Book but 2 individuals might understand it differently.

We may all be the same, and yet not similar.
Essentially, we must ourselves acknowledge our own ignorance, our own inadequacies, then only can we be open-minded to constantly learn.
And in our own learning, we must do no harm.
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written by gundam, July 15, 2008 14:24:35
human survives on a purpose, and that purpose is to survive.
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written by little dragon, July 15, 2008 14:28:30
Why is the English translation of the Quran not accurate whilst the guru who is speaking to us in a non-Arabic language accurate?

this is bcoz ppls' minds r normally tuned only to wat they want to hear n can immediately b perceived to b d truth.

any contradictions wud set off alarm bells n require d person to stop, analyse n rationalize before deciding whether to accept or reject d contradiction.

zealots wud invariably stop at "stop". firm believers wud at least "analyse" while free-souls wud go thru d entire thought train.

propagandists caught on this human susceptibilty a long time ago. this is why v hv a mind-bending technique called "indoctrination".
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written by abm80, July 15, 2008 14:29:27
To add on if I may, the Hadith was written some 600 years (or there about) after the Quran, how in Gods good name does some bloke born hundreds of years after the prophet, provide an unbiased interpretation of the Quran? IMPOSSIBLE! That’s why the Hadith is gender bias vs. the Quran which is not.

A Pakistani man here in KL told my mum that she should cover her head as a form of protection from the piercing eyes of horny men (laughs!). She told him if you bastards could keep your cocks in your pants, the world will be a better place. Seriously, why the f**k does a woman have to suffer for sins of men?

I remember when my late father passed; I was a young lad at the time. The Imam and some people from the mosque dropped by to pray for him and guess what they were on about? They were talking about porno and how they would love to f**ck some lady that comes to the mosque. Yes, these are the kind of sick f**king bastards teaching children today about Islam.

The Arab leaders or super-rich buy little children (boys & girls) from Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc and use them as sex toys, sodomize them and even murder them. And Arabs are thought to be leaders of the Islamic world?! The whole Arab nation can come lick my pie hole – bunch of racist, think no end of themselves, bastards! A Chinese mate of mine saw an Arab family chomping on some what seemed to be delicious sweet and sour pork ribs – being a concerned little fellow, he walked up to the Arab family to warn them that what they were eating was pork. The guy actually got up and told my friend “F**k off Chink”!! Now that’s no way to treat another human being is it? He learnt that lesson not too long after.

The sad state of affairs is this, trying to educate / help the brainwashed Muslim population in Malaysia is like hitting your head on a brick wall. Even a brick wall would crack or crumble if your head was strong enough, these people on the other hand are oblivious to their fate.
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written by clarity, July 15, 2008 14:30:07
RPK, since I am in the minority group with a family of four, we want you to be our proxy when voting time comes. We will follow your choice implicitly.
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written by shamadz72, July 15, 2008 14:40:49
written by Ranulaw, July 15, 2008 | 14:12:35

Just because somebody else believes in the "Trinity" means he can't be share in ur "Kepercayaan"? He may not believe in exactly the same thing but can't he share a little of it? Must he be ur "enemy" then because he doesn't believe in totality with u?

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Did I in my message imply anything about threatening or considering others who don't subscribe to my belief as "enemy"?

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Why can we realise our brothers & sisters can believe what they like as long as they don't impose nor harm us.


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Feel free to believe in what ever you want to believe. I don't have any problem with that smilies/smiley.gif

I am just disputing RPK version that Islam and Christian share the same akidah. When my knowledge of Akidah in Islam is to believe that there is only '1 god and no other beside him'. Remember surah "Al-Ikhlas"?

If what RPK is trying to imply is that Islam and those who believe in the Injil (original version of cause) share the same akidah. Than I believed his statement is correct. Since those who believed in the Injil believed in 'the 1 and only god'





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written by Lembing, July 15, 2008 14:51:49
Dear RPK

I must say that not only you have incredible guts and balls (to write openly about those UMNOPUTRA's misdeeds and to publicly denounce those fake muslims) and you, in my opinion, are also extremely intelligent with a highly executed reasoning power. I imagine you are also a very compassionate guy. How's that for licking your a....
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written by TwilightYears, July 15, 2008 14:52:52
"They talk about form. They do not talk about substance".

How true! RPK, you are always right on target. Malay Muslim tends to focus on the form and ritual than on the essence of things of Muslim believes. If you do not wear baju Melayu to a masjid (especially during Tarawih sessions) you are less a Muslim than the others who do. Can one wears a Chinese headgear (very similar to a songkot but with a knob on the top of the head?) to a Masjid in Malaysia? One would invite hostile stares. It is only when one visits the great Masjid Haram will one be convinced that the outer form is unimportant so long as the "aurat" is covered. In this Makkah mosque one can see all types of national wears - and of course, the usual T shirts and long pants.

I remember how one of my friends was ridiculed by another in front of the Kaabah (of course, both are Malay) that he should not read his doa in Bahasa Melayu but should read it in Arabic. My friends replied that then he would not understand his doa. Doa is between the Master and the Seeker of His blessings. I remember how the first premier, Tunku wrote that when he prayed his 5 prayers, he said it in Arabic (eg AlFatihah and the short surah following it) and when he said his Doa, he said them in Malay.

When a Non Malay marries a Malay, the whole community rises in revolt, though many do so silently. When the Malay lady insisted on her choice of life mate, the community within the kampong would ensure that the Non Malay groom be humilated on the wedding day. The Non Islamic practice of Bersanding would be imposed with all the pomp and ceremony. Instead of being "raja sehari" the groom would encounter the sneer and criticism from relatives from far and wide. He is trapped in this world di bawah tempurong. One could feel how true the Malay proverb - Biar Mati Anak, Jangan Mati adat. The saddest part of it all is that many of the Malay adats are so unIslamic.

I would blame it on the Government for not arresting such issues, but instead encouraging such unIslamic practices to trap Malay inside this narrow-mindedness. I have found that those Malay who are educated in Australia and America and learn Islam from the Universities (not MARA endorsed universities) there, came back to appreciate the true teachings more. The religion of Islam is made easy for mankind; but mankind and Malaykind has made Islam a complicated religion.
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written by mgeo, July 15, 2008 14:53:19
At the height of its influence, the greatest crime in communism was "revisionism" against this "scientific" solution to all major problems. "Reactionaries" did not last long if communists got their hands on them.
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written by rockli, July 15, 2008 15:00:42
Well said RPK,
I agree with - religion is with the self and God.
Impose it on all who are unwilling then that faith is only a pretense.
Western nations do not subject their subjects to a singular religion, why must Malaysia be different.
PAS leaders should take note.
Dress code, head gear, bottom gear do not make a believer or non believer any better.
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written by Sagaladoola, July 15, 2008 15:00:55
HIGHLIGHT :
Jesus did not ask his followers to invent a new religion and neither did Muhammad. And Moses before that also wanted his followers to do the same thing. And what the three great Prophets of the people of the book asked of us was exactly the same thing, to revert to the religion of Abraham.
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written by zandi, July 15, 2008 15:01:15
I thank God of the religion of Abraham,that there is a true Muslim in this country by the initials of RPK who understands the feelings of the non-muslim children of Abrahim. Thank you God!
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written by shamadz72, July 15, 2008 15:02:59
"If what RPK is trying to imply is that Islam and those who believe in the Injil (original version of cause)"

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Sorry. My statement should have been "the original version which the Muslim believed been delivered to Isa". No offense to the Christian. Cheers smilies/smiley.gif

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written by joeawk, July 15, 2008 15:05:10
No thanks, i am fedup with commenting about comments on Islam. I am sick of it and even though i am pissed with Islam in public domain, I shall just stay uninterested this time.
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written by Peranakan, July 15, 2008 15:15:04
I have been reading your articles on Islam,malays and religion closely. I can appreciate what you are trying to say/tell. Being born with a Malay and Chinese parentage, i can associate with what you are saying. There is so much to learn/know about Islam and it never seems to finish. In fact, the more i learn, the less i know.
Your article and its contents is a good starting point for Muslim in general, to start reevaluating what they have been taught while growing up.
I would suggest that you continue writing such articles for the benefit of enlightening the Muslim while providing understanding to the non-Muslim.
Its a step to change the mindset that has been so ingrained in the practices and beliefs of the ummah (of this country).

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written by gctham, July 15, 2008 15:21:47
There is one Buddhist teaching whose name is MASTER CHIN KUNG. Before he become a full time Buddhist teacher (monk) he studies Quran and Bible. He is the man who can understand the Quran & Bible well. He is well known and love by many and now devote all his remaining life in promoting world peace. According to him, all are equal. RPK's understanding on Quran is one of the rare one and he believe and understanding Quran as what Quran as it is.

Well done, but again, no many could understand the origin teaching of the religion in this world now, other wise as RPK say there will no be war against each other.
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written by ROBERTNGTG, July 15, 2008 15:28:16
My articles on Islam always produce the same results. Those not of the Islamic faith will clap and cheer and urge me on. Those of the Islamic faith will declare I am doing Islam a great injustice and disservice. Actually, what I say is not ‘news’ to most people. What I write is something they already believe. They only needed someone else to say it so that they can jump on the bandwagon and join the cheering squad. It really does not matter what I say and whether I say it or not. Their minds had already been made up long ago anyway.

RPK, YR WORK IS CUT OUT JUST FOR YOU. THIS IS YR MISSION. ANYONE WITH A GOOD, PURE HEART WILL HV THE WISDOM TO BE ABLE TO SEE AND APPRECIATE WHAT U ARE DOING.
HISTORY IS ABOUND WITH SUCH CASES OF UNSUNG HEROES WHO DARE TO STAND UP AGAINST AUTHORITY, OPPRESSION AND THE CORRUPTED. AND I MUST SAY U ARE A GEM OF A JEWEL SO RARE IN THIS COUNTRY
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written by Tompios, July 15, 2008 15:29:46
Brother Pete,
You are really having pearls of words to your congregation in this website. Nowadays, people are investing their time to look for the truths through many mechanisms. Believe or not, non-Moslem studying the Quran and Hadith very careful. Most of them believe that Quran should be a sources of ancient knowledge that benefiting to modern life. It is the messages that important to them and not the original language (Arab).
Knowledge seekers somehow found that the messages in the Quran are very clear but the followers of the Quran doing some contradict interests for the sake of their identity. Islam means to submit, or to surrender or to follow the will of God. By submitting ourselves mean we are in the peace direction ways. I will give full support for this kind of understanding of Abraham’s faiths.
Anyhow, those other Abrahamic’s faiths please take notice that vice versa of this statement is required you to think about Islam and Moslem as general. Not all Moslem are fanatic and religion suckers. Many of them are really tolerant and love to live harmony with other people. I only hope while praying that God will give Fikah and Hidayah for those who are really seeking God in their life. Intoxicating people (through title, money, help-aids, education, adopt-family, marriage, love and to be loved promises) to embrace one religion is really un-noble ways.
Merciful God in Heaven, please bless Brother Pete and His family. Let your protection radiant covering them from Satan and Satan’s agents. Peace be with you Brother Pete.

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written by tzarina, July 15, 2008 15:33:40
Well said RPK. I am a non-Muslim. However, I do not post my comments to "cheer" Islamic bashing. But I cheer when you bash ignorant fanatics and ritualistic Muslims, who butt into my life.

Yesterday night, in the UK, Channel 4 broadcasted one of the best shows I have seen, called The Qu'ran. It is a documentary about the holy book, and the different interpretations across the world. It was an amazing eye opener for me, because it made me see the essence of the Quran. And now I understand where you are coming from. Islam is about you and your God, with the Quran as the message, where there are no middle men, no priesthood, no hierarchy. I wish the Muslims in Malaysia are able to see such a show, but the very thought that it is a thinking man's show will cause the government to ban it.

Hopefully, it will be aired in youtube.
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written by Fairminded, July 15, 2008 15:45:06
UMNO had created a new religion - anti Islam religion.
The tenets is against God's and all the great prophets.
Tennets1: All men are not created equal by God. There is the UMNOPUTERAS
2: We are the Gods, worship us, obey us and give us offerings and
sacrifices of money, sex, drugs and rock & roll.
3: We shall steal, commit adultery, kill and use C4
4: Money for friends and cronies, never mind the rest of the poor
dumb Malays and the rest of the Malaysians.
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written by Naha, July 15, 2008 15:47:29
tzarina, nothing controversial about it if one's faith is grounded solid - only ignorant people fear hard questions. Pople can watch it on Channel 4's streaming website: http://www.channel4.com/video/...tchup.html

If you live in the UK be sure not to miss the series scheduled to air beginning tonight 20.00 GMT and continues until Saturday night, same time, called "7 Wonders of of the Muslim World, covering the rich variety of Muslim practice from followers of Ahlul-Bayt to Tasawwuf to the pilgrimage to Mecca.

Fi amanillah and Wassalam.

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written by novrising, July 15, 2008 15:52:01
Just the other day, a female Malay colleague said/convinced that non-muslims are who had converted to Islam (for the sake of getting married) but later wants to revert back, is belittling Islam and God. Inside, I was asking myself, why she never thought that leaving his/her (for the sake of getting married)own religion is belittling as well???

Peace
NovRising
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written by mymastermind79, July 15, 2008 16:08:33
Bang Petra, apapasai kasi cerita banyak panjang? Budak budak kita bukan paham pun. Darah kita yang sama color pun orang kita dah tak peduli. Orang kita cerita-cerita ini tak ada gunanya, dia orang kena belah kepala orang baru paham colornya sama. Entah bila lah lagi manusia nak hidup aman dan damai seperti binatang. Ish ish ish...
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written by alan cheong, July 15, 2008 16:28:54
John the Baptist addressing the Jewish teachers of the law:
Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Paul clarifying, just because they are or claim to be, does not make them truly:
Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Paul reiterating the need and the requisite of faith, just like Abraham:
Galatians 3:6-8 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.


John 8:39-44 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a
murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Are malaysian muslims doing the works of Abraham?

res ipsa loquitor.
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written by grandmarquis, July 15, 2008 16:41:50
Prophet Muhammad S.A.W. when propagating Islam 1400 years ago faced with severe retaliation, attack, personal insult, boycott and threat of his life. As the exemplary Muslim and the best propagator of Islam he has not able to make the non-Muslim of his time to clap hands when he said about Islam. Yet Islam spread across peninsular of Arabia and eventually all over the world.

This does not mean that when we say about Islam we must create enmity. But the reality is that truth hurts. So expect some form of retaliation. When our writings (particularly about Islam) always receive claps (particularly from the non-Muslim), there is something wrong in it.

It is easy to write something that will make the non-Muslim clapping their hand. Feed them with what they want to read. They will clap hand if you say that implementation of syariah law is bullshit. But I would be anxious to know how many will support you if you were to write that syariah law is good for the society, irrespective of Muslim or non-Muslim. Similarly, you will be applauded for saying religion (Islam) is mere personal matter so do what ever you like with it. You want to become a drinking Muslim, fornicating Muslim or non-praying Muslim it is up to you. But it will be difficult for you to say Islam commands amar makruf, nahi mungkar (enjoins the good and forbids the evil). They will applaud you for saying “Go back to the Akidah of Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, i.e. the akidah of Abraham.” period. But if you continue to say “Did Abraham believe that Jesus is the son of God? If so, how can Jesus the Son of God believe in a religion of someone else (i.e. Abraham) who believe that he (Jesus) is the son of God” wait to see the retaliation.

To say Muslims cannot accept criticisms is simply your own conjecture. You must differentiate between constructive criticism and blasphemy. Unfortunately you like to push your own conjectures as though they are the worldview of Muslim. I believe the problem it is a result of your lack of understanding of the correct teaching and interpretation on the subject matter, couple with some bad experiences with some jumud (close minded) ustaz. Let me point few of your basic errors in your writing.

You said:

Muslims have to understand one thing. Religion is something personal between you and God.


Is this your personal view on Islam or is this the worldview of Islam? If it is a worldview, then which recognized scholar holds to such view? What are the dalils (proof) from Quran or Hadith that support this view? Just because you think Islam (religion) is a personal matter you project it as though it is the worldview of Islam and you make a fool of others who differ in this matter. Non-Muslims who have preconceive idea that religion is a personal matter and always like to keep it personal will applaud you for conforming to their self-inflicted believe.

Non-Muslim who read this, please don’t get me wrong. Certainly this is a large topic to talk about. Islam is a religion as well as way of life certainly cannot be something merely personal. There are things involve the rights personal are respected in Islam. There are things that involve the rights of family are respected in Islam. There are other things that involve the rights of community are respected in Islam. There are also other things that involve the right of government are respected in Islam. In summary, Islam covers the complete sphere of human life, from personal to the highest level of human authority. What is important is that we have to put everything in the correct perspective, i.e. we do not invade what is personal and do not make personal what is public!

You said:

And we are not allowed to read the Quran in English since it is a mere translation and we should not read translations since translations may not be accurate and may be full of errors.


This is a blatant ignorance (I assume, unless you do it intentionally) from your part. I have not known of any scholar who prohibits people from reading Quran in English. Translated Qurans are sold and distributed for free in our country. There is a project called Hotel Quran Project, to put translated copies of Quran in all the hotel rooms in Malaysia. So what is the basis of your accusation? Unfortunately, your baseless accusation makes the Muslims in this country look like a fool, and you get a clap for it.

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written by grandmarquis, July 15, 2008 16:42:38
Continue...

You said:
That is the Akidah of Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. And these three great Prophets are united on this doctrine. The rest that divide us is the Shariah. Each religion has its own Shariah. And the Shariah is translated into rituals.

In fact, the Shariah has also divided the three religions to the point they are embroiled in internal conflicts. Yes, the rituals or Shariah have badly divided us -- inter- and intra-religion. And these same rituals or Shariah that have divided us have made us forget that we are united in Akidah.


What the heck are you saying that believe in Jesus as the son of God is a matter of Syariah that divides Muslims and Christians? Again, either you do not understand the word “Syariah” and “Akidah” or you intentionally give a wrong interpretation to your non-Muslim audience to receive a clap for equating the three religions into one.

I can summarize your mistakes into three points.

1.Projecting your self-inflicted definition of Islam to be the worldview of Islam.
2.Blatant ignorance on a subject matter
3.Wrong or incomplete interpretation of the meaning of Quran.

My beloved RPK, I respect you for many of your writings on the subjects related to our country politics, people and culture. Many of your criticisms on the Muslim community are indeed correct. I do not reject 100% of your criticisms. In fact I take them constructively. But what is unacceptable is that while you are criticizing them, you are projecting your own notions of believe and definition that neither representing any truth nor projecting the correct understanding about Islam.
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written by Prakasha, July 15, 2008 17:09:37
RPK, this is easily the Best article you've written! Fair Play to you!

If you can convert One man/women's mindset with this, you've done what the whole UMNO/BN clowns have failed for the past 50 years!

We need more ppl like you!

About the useless court case you're up against :- GOLD IS TESTED FOR ITS PURITY!

Rest assured in this life or the next, you and your family will be well taken care off... God is ever patient and merciful against those who wrong HIM but NEVER against those who wrong HIS followers!
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written by doggone, July 15, 2008 17:12:10

If you live a life true and pure, even unbound onto any religion, fret not in your passing, for your Maker will welcome you with open arms for you have led a life worthy of a good man.

Dear RPK. We urge you on not only for your ability to criticize, but more for your ability to enlighten.

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written by box, July 15, 2008 17:12:48
grandmarquis wrote:

"This is a blatant ignorance (I assume, unless you do it intentionally) from your part. I have not known of any scholar who prohibits people from reading Quran in English. Translated Qurans are sold and distributed for free in our country. There is a project called Hotel Quran Project, to put translated copies of Quran in all the hotel rooms in Malaysia."

Is there a website to this Hotel Quran Project. I am kinda interested to know more. I have spoken to a few Arabs (ordinary Muslims) and they confirmed what RPK mentioned regarding prohibiting translation of the Quran. They even gave the same explanation given by RPK regarding the believe that the true meaning of the Quran will be lost after the translation.
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written by riau, July 15, 2008 17:32:31
The shallowness of many Muslims reflected by their reaction to RPK's writing on Islam is a fundamental flaw not of the religion of Islam itself - whereby RPK has made it abundantly clear that Islam itself is complete like a virtuous circle - but more as to how adherents of the Muslim religion practices and manifest their faith. The Muslims in general are not ignorant as to what are the fundamentals of Islam are but rather, their selective understanding, misunderstandings and selective practices that is giving the religion Islam a bad name in the eyes of the world. What is worst and fatal is that, the general and lay Muslims give undue attention to the ritual practices of the religion at the expense and diminishment of the universal values of Islam - the ihsan, the iman and the islam.
The reasons for these can be traced to how Islam was spread into the region through the tarekats that stressed on the ritual wirid practices. Later, the colonial masters division of the administration of the country whereby Islam and customs became the provision of the Sultans. In contemporary times, the tv and radio ulama prefer to stress the ritualistic aspects of the religion rather then the values that Islam stands for. It is an uphill battle to bring a kinder and gentler Islam into the forefront that stresses on the values of the religion. Indeed it is so much easier to be perfect in the doing of the rituals than to say no to the accepting of bribes, giving an honest day work without any slacking and so forth. Muslims should be competing with each other and the other faith adherents to do more good and prevent evil.
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written by Harpoon, July 15, 2008 17:34:44
"Religion is something personal between you and God. Most people are quite prepared to leave it at that."

Respect others the same way you want to be respected.

Enuff said.
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written by megahyper, July 15, 2008 17:41:55
"Is this your personal view on Islam or is this the worldview of Islam? If it is a worldview, then which recognized scholar holds to such view? What are the dalils (proof) from Quran or Hadith that support this view? Just because you think Islam (religion) is a personal matter you project it as though it is the worldview of Islam and you make a fool of others who differ in this matter. Non-Muslims who have preconceive idea that religion is a personal matter and always like to keep it personal will applaud you for conforming to their self-inflicted believe."


So "It's a way of life" and it encompasses everything and anything. And it's comprised of personal and public and it branches out to quite a number of version throughout history and it's the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

The problem is every sect, every branch, every scholar, everyone has its own version of truth. So what is the real truth? Who has the real authority to it beside God himself?

If i dont agree with your truth, but your truth says that its public domain and not personal, and i strongly disagreed..... would it still be public domain, even if I disagree? Are you God?

From the same argument, if religion is not only between you and god (ie: personal domain) but it can be made public (ie: be imposed by religious law), wouldnt it be like forcing untruth into my believes. Are you god?

So what is the truth? Can you get the same interpretation from Arab, Malaysia, China, Libya, Egypt, Sunni, Shite, Al-qaeda, Taliban, Turkey Scholar/Ustaz/Holy man? Wouldn’t it be best left to between you and God?

It’s God’s law, for God’s sake! Only God has the right to punish and merit. Are you sure you are 100% following God’s law? What if your truth is not God’s truth? If your imposition/truth is differing from God’s, and you try to administer it publicly on others (who may be right), wouldn’t it makes you doing the devil’s job?

Note that I haven’t yet to touch on non-muslim. If religion is not that personal, I think non-muslim will also have a say in it, because no matter what, they came from the same source/God and going back to the same source/God, whether you like it or not.
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written by temenggong, July 15, 2008 17:45:19
Don't you just love it when religion comes up!

Did it ever occur to people that one can only preach to the choir, especially if its religion. That religious arguments are only good in your own little hole on earth and no chance in an open media!

Fatwa against conversion to Islam for marriage

Posted online: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 at 01:02:46

Muzaffarnagar, July 2: An Islamic organization in Muzaffarnagar has issued a fatwa saying that conversion of a woman to Islam for the purpose of getting married with someone in the faith is illegal and against the Shariat law.

The fatwa was issued in response to a question posed before the Darululoom Deoband asking whether the conversion of a non-Muslim woman for getting married into Islam was justified.

The Deputy-in-charge of the organisation's fatwa department organisation, Mufti Ahsan Kasmi said conversion to Islam must be in good faith and not for getting something.

President of the Uttar Pradesh Imam Organisation, Mufti Zulfikar, has also come out in support of the fatwa.
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written by Alice, July 15, 2008 17:51:23
Aha this was what i was saying before ALL FORMS AND NO SUBSTANCE. Well i dont want to be too harsh but working in a 95% Malay environment I began to see that the muslims were very tied up with forms and dont give much thought to the heart. How they judge fellow muslims and condemn them who do not wish to follow forms shocked me in the beginning. However I do find the Malays to be a very simple minded people and easy to get along with compared to the nons .Somewhere they have been brainwashed. Maybe Dr Azly is right. Its the BTN crap!!
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written by matkreko, July 15, 2008 17:55:05
"We are all children of Adam..."
(Not those of monkeys who believe that they are here just by chance!)

Way to go RPK... now you are talking. Don't just bash the wrong... show what is right as well!
My concern is, when you just highlight the wrongdoing of a mislead-muslim, those who did not understand Islam will think that Islam is difficult and easily misunderstood religion, those with a bad intention will use that as a bullet to shot an innocent muslim... so on and so forth.

You accept my challenge then... but wonder why my prior comment in http://72.47.255.22/2008/content/view/9868/84/ is being doctored (???). If you want to delete my post... just DELETE the whole comment, but not MODIFY it...!!! I am beginning to loose faith in your so called FREE UNBIASED MEDIA!!!

There is nothing wrong to learn from the translation of The Qur'an... however, if one just depend on the translation without knowing the Qur'an language, one can easily be swayed into the wrong side - a common reason for those people who become the so called extremist.
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written by temenggong, July 15, 2008 17:55:07
Other religions like Buddhism, Hinduism and Taoism are not criticised because those people do not bring it into the public domain but keep it personal. Or use gods name in vain. As it should be.

It is muslims and christians that are gluttons for punishment and like to make a fool of themselves in public. They just can't have enough of it I guess! smilies/smiley.gif

Unfortunately my arms are tired today.
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written by 98PercentPrimate, July 15, 2008 18:08:04
Re grandmarquis,

From what I have read of RPK’s writings on Islam, he is a very enlightened person with a high level of spirituality. If you understand the generic spiritual process, http://beinghuman-humannature....-path.html RPK’s spiritual activities would be driven more from the higher human brain than the lower brain. This hypothesis can be verified scientifically with fMRI imaging. Somebody we will be able to assess each person’s spirituality level using fMRI imaging.

The only minus point is that RPK tend to generalize (perhaps due to no time for specifics) and do not take into account the normal distribution of human variables. http://beinghuman-humannature....ss-no.html
I would normally qualify “the majority (not all)”, even then the absence of this qualification only has a small impact on the fact. I do not have any problem of separating the wheat from the chaff in his writings.

written by grandmarquis, July 15, 2008 | 16:42:38
I can summarize your mistakes into three points.
1.Projecting your self-inflicted definition of Islam to be the worldview of Islam.
2.Blatant ignorance on a subject matter
3.Wrong or incomplete interpretation of the meaning of Quran.


Btw, what “worldview of Islam” are you expecting. At present there is no Islamic world body that is authorized to decide what the ultimate interpretation of the Quran should be. It is almost a free for all and no one or organization seem to be able to stop the violence, intolerances, injustices, infringing the human rights of others that is happening all over the world by Muslims extremists and ‘condone’ by the silence of the majority moderates.

RPK in his writings had been promoting and encouraging everyone, Muslims and non-Muslims, to respect each other, co-operate, exercise tolerance, denounce injustices, respect human rights of others and be a peaceful human being. If this is the worldview of Islam that RPK is projecting it is definitely bringing a lot of credit to Islam, Muslims and the Quran, and contributing to the progress to humanity.

Would you expect RPK to read the Quran and do the opposite of the above good deeds, as some extremists would have done.

One provision you need to take note is the meaning of ‘belief’ and ‘faith’.

Belief: Dictionary.com
1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief

Faith
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof:

From the above worldview, even if you think your faith and beliefs are 100% certain or true, fundamentally your beliefs are NOT based on proof or reason, and thus it is only sensible to take your beliefs with some reservations.

I note RPK is using that little reservation to put the Quran in the higher human_ness perspectives and that is reflected in the many human positives he had been promoting. Keep it up RPK. Salute.

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written by bumiputeri, July 15, 2008 18:58:03
I would like to share just one point here!

1. My Satguru H.H. Sri Swami Sivanandaji Maharaj (or Jagat Guru- in Malay it simply means Guru Sedunia(jagat)) loves to sing this favourite song of His to his devotees, can't remember the lines exactly, but it is something like this....

Oh Mother Mary, O Lord Jesus
O Father, Father
O My Allah, O My Buddha
O Father, Father
O My Sakthi, O Aathi Sakthi
O Mother, Mother...

All of us, Hindu devotees of Him, sing that song with so much joy, for we know, no matter what the human beings with their finite intellect argue and say, the truth is, GOD is one, and we are created by HIM with all these differences...

That is why the Hindus, and understandably, the Buddhists, never talk about what great religion theirs are, but rather look deep within in meditation, how good/bad are they spiritualy, i.e. how much good and bad karma have they earned on earth...

Man can argue and fool fellow human beings, but we know, in front of him, it is only HIS judgement, the fairest and the best judgement, that will prevail.

Look Within and not Without = RPK's Substance and not Form!!!!

Peace!
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written by MasterYoda, July 15, 2008 19:01:20
Forwarded to me.

Adapted from a book.
Part 1
Islam is not a religion, nor is it a cult. In its fullest form, it is a complete, total, 100% system of life.

Islam has religious, legal, political, economic, social, and military components. The religious component is a beard for all of the other components.

Islamization begins when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their religious privileges.

When politically correct, tolerant, and culturally diverse societies agree to Muslim demands for their religious privileges, some of the other components tend to creep in as well. Here's how it works.

As long as the Muslim population remains around or under 2% in any given country, they will be for the most part be regarded as a peace-loving minority, and not as a threat to other citizens. This is the case in:

United States -- Muslim 0.6%
Australia -- Muslim 1.5%
Canada -- Muslim 1.9%
China -- Muslim 1.8%
Italy -- Muslim 1.5%
Norway -- Muslim 1.8%

At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs. This is happening in:

Denmark -- Muslim 2%
Germany -- Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7%
Spain -- Muslim 4%
Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%

From 5% on, they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. For example, they will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature halal on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. This is occurring in:

France -- Muslim 8%
Philippines -- Muslim 5%
Sweden -- Muslim 5%
Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad & Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%

At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves (within their ghettos) under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islamists is to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

When Muslims approach 10% of the population, they tend to increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions. In Paris , we are already seeing car-burnings. Any non-Muslim action offends Islam, and results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam , with opposition to Mohammed cartoons and films about Islam. Such tensions are seen daily, particularly in Muslim sections, in:

Guyana -- Muslim 10%
India -- Muslim 13.4%
Israel -- Muslim 16%
Kenya -- Muslim 10%
Russia -- Muslim 15%

After reaching 20%, nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings, and the burnings of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues, such as in:

Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8%
At 40%, nations experience widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks, and ongoing militia warfare, such as in:

Bosnia -- Muslim 40%
Chad -- Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7%

From 60%, nations experience unfettered persecution of non-believers of all other religions (including non-conforming Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon, and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels, such as in:

Albania -- Muslim 70%
Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4%
Qatar -- Muslim 77.5%
Sudan -- Muslim 70%

After 80%, expect daily intimidation and violent jihad, some State-run ethnic cleansing, and even some genocide, as these nations drive out the infidels, and move toward 100% Muslim, such as has been experienced and in some ways is on-going in:

Bangladesh -- Muslim 83%
Egypt -- Muslim 90%
Gaza -- Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia -- Muslim 86.1%
Iran -- Muslim 98%
Iraq -- Muslim 97%
Jordan -- Muslim 92%
Morocco -- Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan -- Muslim 97%
Palestine -- Muslim 99%
Syria -- Muslim 90%
Tajikistan -- Muslim 90%
Turkey -- Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates -- Muslim 96%

100% will usher in the peace of 'Dar-es-Salaam' -- the Islamic House of Peace. Here there's supposed to be peace, because everybody is a Muslim, the Madrasses are the only schools, and the Koran is the only word, such as in:

Afghanistan -- Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100%
Somalia -- Muslim 100%
Yemen -- Muslim 100%

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written by MasterYoda, July 15, 2008 19:02:12
Part 2...

Unfortunately, peace is never achieved, as in these 100% states the most radical Muslims intimidate and spew hatred, and satisfy their blood lust by killing less radical Muslims, for a variety of reasons.

'Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; the tribe against the world, and all of us against the infidel. -- Leon Uris, 'The Haj'

It is important to understand that in some countries, with well under 100% Muslim populations, such as France, the minority Muslim populations live in ghettos, within which they are 100% Muslim, and within which they live by Sharia Law. The national police do not even enter these ghettos. There are no national courts nor schools nor non-Muslim religious facilities. In such situations, Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. The children attend madrasses. They learn only the Koran. To even associate with an infidel is a crime punishable with death. Therefore, in some areas of certain nations, Muslim Imams and extremists exercise more power than the national average would indicate.

Today's 1.5 billion Muslims make up 22% of the world's population. But their birth rates dwarf the birth rates of Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, and Jews, and all other believers. Muslims will exceed 50% of the world's population by the end of this century.

Adapted from Dr. Peter Hammond's book: Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat
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written by OilMan, July 15, 2008 19:03:29
Why is it that when it comes to religion there will be so many comments? I think it only shows just how sensitive the topic of religion can be. Malaysians should change their mindset and be more tolerant. Fact is, Muslims should be more tolerant to other beliefs. Do not be complacent with the protection of the government and be more competitive in this world. Work hard and excel.
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written by bakas, July 15, 2008 19:19:00
To grandmarquis and shamadz72

Please get your facts right first and instead of believing them straightaway, do your research before you write in anger and risk making yourself looked like ignorant and foolish. This is a humble request from me, a brother to you both.

Shamadz72,

The Trinity concept of God in Christianity does not mean that there are THREE Gods. This is a common teaching by the people who are ignorant about what the Christians believed. Though there are THREE Persons, there is only ONE God. So, your argument fell short on this point alone. Ask any Christians, open and read any Bibles (if you are not scared and believe those things that those imams taught, when they say that it is full of lies and distorted) and you will find that the message in it is about the ONE God who saves. And ask them also (if you have the guts and open mind) whether they believe their God is THREE and they will tell you that is blasphemy. And should you asked how come THREE can become one, well, that is for God to answer, right? If He decides so, it will be as all Muslims believe. Well, the Jews don’t believe in Jesus, so we have no qualms over there. I am writing this on behalf of all the Christian people out there, because it seems like you are making it an issue here.

Grandmarquis,

What do you mean when you questioned this, and I quote:

Is this your personal view on Islam or is this the worldview of Islam? If it is a worldview, then which recognized scholar holds to such view? What are the dalils (proof) from Quran or Hadith that support this view? Just because you think Islam (religion) is a personal matter you project it as though it is the worldview of Islam and you make a fool of others who differ in this matter. Non-Muslims who have preconceive idea that religion is a personal matter and always like to keep it personal will applaud you for conforming to their self-inflicted believe.

Do you mean to say that your relationship with Allah is not personal and intimate? My, my…Tell me brother, how do you view your faith in relation to Allah? If Allah only rewards and punish (most people have this view and never go beyond that), then He becomes nothing but a merchant. Understand the faith deeper and you will see that we are called to higher levels of relationship in regards to the Creator. If God is that far and does not desire closer relationship with us, there is no meaning in us living, as we will be mere puppets. Even pets can learn to love their master, not because they fear punishment but because they know that their master nourishes them, shelter them and most of all show love to them. Shouldn’t we view our relationship to Allah as higher and nobler than animals? When religion ceased to become personal, it loses the meaning in the first place. When you have Allah in your heart, you have ‘peace’ and that my friend, is personal (you are sharing your heart to the people, izzit?) and that my friend is ISLAM.
smilies/grin.gif
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written by sammi, July 15, 2008 19:21:48
I guess most muslims didn't really understand Islam well becoz first majority couldn't understand Arabic then they have been taught since young thru religious ulama or ulamak whereby these ulamas probably using their own half past six knowledge in Quran's teaching. Same things go to Christianity when they were preached by their pastors thru his own beliefs so called being brain washed to believe what he believes. Similarity to Osama who has the ability to control his followers' belief into his....they are playing the shadow of their God. Once the belief is planted in the mindset for such a time, it's not easy to deviate it.
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written by grandmarquis, July 15, 2008 19:27:39
Hi All,

Let me just address some pertinent arising issues from my previous post.

Box

Is there a website to this Hotel Quran Project. I am kinda interested to know more. I have spoken to a few Arabs (ordinary Muslims) and they confirmed what RPK mentioned regarding prohibiting translation of the Quran. They even gave the same explanation given by RPK regarding the believe that the true meaning of the Quran will be lost after the translation.


I am not sure of any website, but this is one link related to the launching of the project.
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-82616990.html

You have to differentiate between reading translated Quran and the original content of Quran. There is no prohibition of reading translated Quran. But translated copy of Quran cannot be called the Quran as the Quran must be preserved by its original language.

To the non-Muslim readers, you have to know that Islam is a religion of science and discipline. There is a science of hadith, science of jurisprudence, science of tafsir (interpretation of Quran), etc. When I say science, I do not mean technology as understood by many. But science in the context that every aspects of Islam has a methodology in arriving at it. This will answer to the question to whose truth is the truth and what Islamic worldview is.

When someone writes a scientific paper claiming that a phenomenon can be explained by so and so, he must back his claim with scientific proof, i.e. result supported with correct scientific research methodology. Similarly when someone claims Islam is so and so, he must back his claim with correct proof based on correct methodologies. This is to make sure that Islam does not become a subject of individual whims and fancies. Muslims accept or reject opinions not by their whims and fancies as well. They have to carefully evaluate the opinions based on the correct sciences. In this case, there is no issue about whose truth is the truth and what Islamic worldview is. The truth is the opinion that conform the most to the correct sciences. The worldview is the view devised from the correct sources based on correct sciences, not simply a personal conjecture.

It is also important to note that there will be time when differences of opinions may arise. This matter Islam has its own branch of sciences to deal with the matter. In this regards, Islam takes the middle path. There are differences of opinions that are acceptable to Islam and vice versa. This opposes the extremists who do not tolerate differences of opinions and also the nonchalant who are too casual with multitude of opinions.

In conclusion, Islam is a broad subject. There are many sciences that one must mastered before he/she wants to indulge in some heavy discussion about Islam. If you do not know, don’t assume. Ask those who are in possession of the knowledge as outline by the Quran (Nahl:43).

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written by businessman, July 15, 2008 19:42:40
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RPK article is like arguing why a black cat is black. You can bombard the black cat with all the facts and figure, yet the cat will remains as black cat as ever.

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written by teohism, July 15, 2008 20:02:24
written by temenggong, July 15, 2008 | 17:45:19
Did it ever occur to people that one can only preach to the choir, especially if its religion. That religious arguments are only good in your own little hole on earth and no chance in an open media!
------------------------------------------------------------------
My thoughts: That's SO true! ... but who's to be blame?. God made us all DIFFERENT (brains, mentality) and put us in DIFFERENT countries (cultures, practices) with DIFFERENT RELIGION. I blame God! Am I allowed to blame my Maker since IT didn't ask my permission?

Thought for the day:- God made the first human-rights violation!

To bakas: Syabas (I hope 'syabas' means Fantastic!)
To grandmarquis: (& fellow humans), Islam is indeed scientific and methodical...

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=9&tid=20750

One particular sentence caught my attention - "This way, they will have no choice, but to die or embrace Islam,"

Why Muslims don't accept the Trinity: -

Sura 6, Al-An'am, 101 says:
" To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: how can he have a son when he hath no consort [wife]? He created all things and he hath full knowledge of all things."

Could the author of the above Sura be so shallow of knowledge as not to know of
any sonship other that a biological sonship? Doesn't whoever is speaking
in this sura know of legal sonship, Adoption? Doesn't he know of metaphorical sonships e.g., an Egyptian as son of the Nile, Arab as son of the desert, necessity as the mother of invention, a student as the son of knowledge, etc.?

When the Bible teaches that Christ is the Son of God, it does not mean God married a wife and begat Jesus in the usual biological process, as the Koranic Allah declares. Jesus is the unique Son of God in a spiritual sense. Trust me (an infidel) on this. It's the simplest logic for simple minds'

I AM THAT, I AM... (I'm EVERYTHING - even YOU, and I)
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written by Rhan, July 15, 2008 20:29:48
Jesus is the unique Son of God in a spiritual sense. Trust me


I do. But did the Christian have the same view as yours?

Just because you think Islam (religion) is a personal matter you project it as though it is the worldview of Islam and you make a fool of others who differ in this matter.


If religion is not a personal matter, can i says the only option Muslim have is to make use of force and war to create the so call Islam worldview? Otherwise how are you Muslim going to achieve what God want? Through election like what Pas is doing? Did God agree on this?
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written by menowok, July 15, 2008 20:33:47
I think brainwashing is quite effective in Malaysia. Eventhough a lot of them receive higher education, but their worldview is narrow like rural folks. Most Singapore folks are better than Malaysia folks.
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written by shamadz72, July 15, 2008 20:46:08
"Ask any Christians, open and read any Bibles (if you are not scared and believe those things that those imams taught, when they say that it is full of lies and distorted) and you will find that the message in it is about the ONE God who saves."

-----

Bakas,

This is an open forum. As long as we can discuss in dignity without having to resort to name calling etc, I don't have any problem to hear your view. Feel free to enlighten us and elaborate more on your Christian Trinity concept. Thanks

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written by bakas, July 15, 2008 20:54:49
Dear Shamadz72,

I am your brother in Islam. All I am asking for is some understanding of other people's faith. I don't claim to know a lot about Christianity, but I do my homework and do not bash people from other faith or simply put myself or my religion above them. Just as we ask people to respect Islam, we also must respect other people's faith. I am sorry if you feel offended, but I am so frustrated that everytime RPK writes about religion (mainly Islam), we spin into a war-zone for all people to bash each other with all their might.

And if you read my post carefully, you will understand that I never resort to name calling, to you or anyone. my apologies if you are offended.

Wassalam.
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written by teohism, July 15, 2008 20:58:51
My last sentence needs (begs) clarification for EVERY humans of DIFFERING FAITH. If you believe that your God or Allah or Whatever-ism is:

ALL KNOWING, ALL POWERFUL, and THE CREATOR of EVERYTHING!!!... then,

how does one come to terms that God/Allah made you what-you-are, then 'allow' you to do-as-you-please, then providing you with a-dime-a-dozen magicians (water into wine, walk on water, virgin Marys; did you guys know of the sex-change 'dad' that gave birth?) AND used them & the holy books (diaries) to threaten us with eternal damnation! Oh, this one attribute of God takes the cake! ALL LOVING! ...UNCONDITIONAL nonetheless. Sorry Christians.

Allah fares no better with this ALL MERCIFUL!

quran 5.51 - O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. (Friends also cannot!)

quran 4.144 - O you who believe! do not take the unbelievers for friends rather than the believers; do you desire that you should give to Allah a manifest proof against yourselves? (Fear tactics)

quran 9.123 - O ye who believe! fight such of the disbelievers as are near to you and let them find hardness in you; and know that ALLAH is with the righteous. (No wonder banyak terrorist!)

Does it scares you? This scientific and methodical indoctrination? I REALLY, REALLY do thank the Muslims in Malaysia for showing tolerance to the non-believers. Peace bro. for not being 'orthodox'. A lot of us are afraid of what you may likely do in the name of ???
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written by tehtarik, July 15, 2008 21:18:32
Aiyo with all this bashing here n there, how can bangsa malaysia progress?
most people like to proclaim "ketuanan agama sendiri". religion is betweeen u n god.many times people tend to try to convert others to accept their religion. in so doing , they gain merit n go to heaven(apply to many religions)
i, for one, dont care n dont intend to do this even my religion says so.i think most people dont understand deeply the meaning of "respect" n "diverse".
"PEACE"
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written by shamadz72, July 15, 2008 21:29:46
Bakas,

I would like to correct you that I didn't bash other religions nor do I feel offended to what others want to believe, even if that person want to worship Satan for me it is up to him. I don't have any problem with that. smilies/smiley.gif


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written by lynn, July 15, 2008 21:58:06
Thanks, RPK, for a great piece. There is only one Raja Petra K in the whole world! Why don't you read this link & tell us what you think?
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

However, these two statements are offensive to Atheists like me:-
""""Jesus Christ Loves You"""""
""""“We are all children of Abraham.” """""

Who is he? He died 2000 yrs ago apparently, I have never met him, so how could he love me? Insane. Utter rubbish. Illogical. What a bold statement. Chi Sin.

I am no child of any Abraham. I am my parents' child. period.

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written by abdrahim_ahmad, July 15, 2008 22:23:31
I share my view with Shamadz72 regarding the belief of one God in Islam and the trinity in "Christianity". This is a principal difference so much so that Sura Al-Ikhlas in the Quran declares the declaration of tawhid, God's absolute unity. It says that God is without equal, without origin, without end, and unlike anything else that exists.

Abang Pete explains that AKIDAH means the rope that binds us to God. Jews, Christians and Muslims are all 'bound' by this 'rope' to believe in the same, one God. Yes agreed ..... the early Christians and Jews, he should mean.
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written by bakas, July 15, 2008 23:22:49
"Akidah" in Arabic means "Kepercayaan" in Malaysian language. So how can we, who believed in "the one and only god and there is no other god beside him" share the same akidah with those who believed in "Trinity"?

Bro shamadz72,

If this is not bashing, then I am not sure what is. Correct me if I am wrong, but does this not imply that the people of the Book (the Christians and Jews) do not believe in the same God? If it is not, then the akidah is the same. If not, then, either I misread the Quran and / or RPK is a great liar or these is actually not true:

4:163

We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms.



So, Christians believe in Jesus and the Prophets but their akidah is different from the Muslims? And the Jews also have different akidah because they listen to Moses? Is it the same Jesus and Moses, or do we have two sets of Moses and Jesus here? Please enlighten me on this one, as I may misinterpret what you were writing earlier. As they say, "to err is human, to forgive divine". If I misquoted you or misinterpreted you, then I offer my sincerest apology.

Peace to all smilies/grin.gif
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written by MasterYoda, July 16, 2008 00:37:49
lynn,

you are right...

at the moment you are no child of Abraham... since you are an atheist...

You are a monkey... you are parents come from monkeys....

If you atheist don't believe in a Creator, where the hell did we come from?
and most imprtant waht is purpose of our existance if we just an accident of nature...

If we evolved? from what did we ORIGINALY evolve from?
And how did this ORIGINAL Cell come into existance?

IF it we from the BIG BANG... where did the components of the BIG BANG come from?

How did matter ever come into Existance... if it were not created.

I am sure you atheists have the SOLUTION..
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written by DontPlayGod, July 16, 2008 01:06:54
RPK, 99% of the Muslim Malays in Malaysia will not agree with you. In fact they will curse you for writing so. These so-called Muslims will say that their Islam is perfect, and all other religions are false. All Gods of other religions are false! Very sad, but this is what the Muslim Malays think.
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written by miwaki, July 16, 2008 01:33:40
Very good,after understanding your own religion,please practice it and all will go to heaven but do not tell me heaven is confined to your religion.There are more people in hell than heaven and all these people are from various religion which include yours and mine.
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written by miwaki, July 16, 2008 01:36:16
Master Yoda,
Sorry I miss your comment,with due respect,if you believe in creation,please tell me who create the creator ? another creator ? then it cannot end-lah !
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written by MalaysiaBaru, July 16, 2008 02:09:02
written by shamadz72, July 15, 2008 | 14:40:49

...I am just disputing RPK's version that Islam and Christian share the same akidah. When my knowledge of Akidah in Islam is to believe that there is only '1 god and no other beside him'.


Shamadz72,

From the discussion with some of my Christian friends, I come to know that actually the Christians also believe that "there is only 1 God and no others beside Him". The Trinity is infact a single Entity. In the Injil, it is said that God created men in His Own image. Hence, men also exist as a trinity, in three distinctive forms: body, mind and spirit.

Therefore, the Akidah of Islam and Christianity are essentially the same. If only the Muslims and Christians could focus more on their similarity, lay down their weapons, help the poorer countries, channel their resources towards the betterment of mankind...the world could have been a much more harmonious and wonderful place smilies/smiley.gif smilies/smiley.gif smilies/smiley.gif
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written by MasterYoda, July 16, 2008 03:14:56
Hi Miwaki,

You have asked the right question. who created the Creator.

For us who are created cannot comprehend that there can be One Person who was never created...

The Creator is not a force or a cosmic energy but rather a Person with characteristics.

why i say this is because, it is evident, that all matter, form and living things have unique character...

Human and all things were made with purpose to serve the Creator... just like how we have createred the computer to serve us....

If we keep on looking back and back to find out about creation, it will STOP at one point... the Initial Creator. and that Creator has always been there.... Self-Existing One...

Another reason why we can't really grasp the idea is that we live in something called TIME. We measure time and season. We are born and then will die. So in our physical realm we are in a 'TIME ZONE'.

But the Creator is subject to TIME or such measurements. The Creator is outside time... called eternity, meaning without end.

So we conlcude that, the Creator has no beginning and has no ending... unlike the creation..us.

hope that helped.
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written by MasterYoda, July 16, 2008 03:16:52
sorry, ... it should read : But the Creator is NOT subject to TIME or such measurements.The Creator is outside time... called eternity, meaning without end.
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written by FFT, July 16, 2008 03:48:04
The only purpose of the "Book" is to cultivate sheep in a massive social engineering experiment.

All of you should ditch the book and live your lives as freemen.
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written by McNair, July 16, 2008 04:25:10
no steven tan, i'll have to disagree with you on this. RPK cannot lead this country. of course it may sound ideal but being a brutally honest man with no holds barred, the country would turn chaotic. one has gotta be open enough to accept his views and most malaysians surely are a bunch of narrow-minded earthlings who are driven excessively by emotions and sentiments. trust me, the situation would go haywire! ironically, he's just over-qualified to lead a country where its residents portray third-class mentality.
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written by shamadz72, July 16, 2008 05:55:29
Raja Petra and all Sultan Agong Royalty, if they have the Guts should Declare on this Blog Publically that Malay CANNOT be born a muslim. Use the Sultan Agong keepers of Islam to right the wrong of this STUPID understanding. Interpretation comes in many forms and as long as we support freedom of religion that is fine with me. That means malay can convert to other religion anytime without the need for the Redundant corrupt Syriah courts. Hundred Millions of ringgit can be saved to help the needy and poor. Why we need to pay a bunch of crooks to deliver justice when they close a blind eye to Blatant injustice, corrution? Muslim need to conduct themselves appropriately like other religion without a Religious Policing Rubbish like Syariah courts!!
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written by Surich, July 16, 2008 09:28:12
They talk about form. They do not talk about substance.

That's why the Muslin Government in Malaysia renamed the road "circular road" to "Perkeliling" to "Jln Run Razak". In Singapore, the "circular road" is still around.
nationalizing a road make you FEEL good but is does not FILL your tummy.
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written by Tornado, July 16, 2008 09:51:21
Religion is way of life, ritual & law.

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written by ohuat, July 16, 2008 10:02:47
Please separate religion from politic. Religion is for individual, politic is for a nation. When will we wake up?
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written by Somewhere I Belong, July 16, 2008 10:05:02
Lol! Reminds me during my studies year, where we have this solat hajat before the examination, which were organize by this Mahasiswa/siswi Islam Club. Apparently, I’m the only one who doesn’t wear head scarf although I wear baju kurung during that time. And boy, the President of the Club keeps on eyeing on me, an unapproving look on me! Not to mention Pak Imam or the preacher who keeps on staring at me, as if I’m making the BIGEEST sin of all! Some of my college friends who doesn’t wear head scarf, are wearing one and most of them keep asking me why I don’t wear one. Even the guys keep asking me, where is your head scarf? Or like, “tudung awak terbang ke?”. Will this give the motivation to wear head scarf?. I told them, I’m not a hypocrite. I’m still not ready and why should I wear head scarf like a biscuit chips more? Kejap ada, kejap tak ada? Wear the head scarf only in front all the men but later, going out for a date with a man, tudung terbang?

Honestly, many Muslims are like that! Hipopotamus! smilies/wink.gif
smilies/tongue.gif
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written by kawaafi, July 16, 2008 10:37:25
Dear RPK,
I agree with you that mostly people has left out the talk about akidah. As if we Muslim had the akidah thing ‘solved’ since we are borned Muslim. But not so, akidah need to be renewed all the time. So that we understand what we are believing and stop blaming or excuse ourselves of what religion our parents belongs to.

But please read verse 3 in the Maidah chapter in the Quran. I put here a translation in English, since both of us do not understand Arabic..smilies/smiley.gif
‘…Today have I perfected your religious law for you, and have bestowed upon you the full measure of My blessings, and willed that self-surrender unto Me (ISLAM) shall be your religion.’ That is why am a Muslim and stay in Islam today. Because Allah swt had specifically mention this very religion (Islam) in HIS book.

I do not know much about Christian, and I take it from you, Jesus never mention he was inventing a new religion. The word Christian was firstly uttered to Paul by King of Agrapia.. but that is of another matter.

Just as an info, Prophet Muhammad used to invite a group of Christian into the Masjid to perform their prayers. That was the good old days ya..smilies/smiley.gif He also had many peaceful dialog with many Christians, and in one occasion had accepted the challenge of ‘mubalahah’(swearing) by a group of Christian from Narjan.

I think the war with each other happen not because of the faith, but mainly because of other factor like race (Malay think Islam belongs to them, while Jews the religion had already belongs to Jew race), wealth (oil), power etc etc. Many times Religion is only used or abused for some people greed.

We have the responsibility to learn more and develop understanding on our religion to respect ourselves and be respectable in order to respect others.
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written by shamadz72, July 16, 2008 11:25:50
"So, Christians believe in Jesus and the Prophets but their akidah is different from the Muslims?"

------

Bakas,

In my humble opinion YES. smilies/smiley.gif

Do Christians believe in Muhammad S.A.W as one of the prophets? That probably should answer your question whether we (Muslim) have the same Akidah as Christian.

How about "Syahadah"? Will it be complete if we just leave the part "dan aku naik saksi bahawa Muhammad itu pesuruh Allah"?

Let me give you an example here. Let say, one day I met up with RPK at a restaurant. We end up chatting and I told him him about 1 person that I know whose name is Ali. So I describe to him how Ali looks like, where he live, working etc. RPK listened to my story with interest and suddenly he told me it seems that he also knows a person name Ali whose details is similar to what I have describe. So we continue chatting about this person knowing that we probably talking about the same person, until when RPK asked me, "did you attend his wedding last 2 years? This question makes me wonder and I started to ask RPK.. "Are you sure he got married?", RPK nodded his head and say "Yeah... he even already blessed with a 1 year old son now. Don't you know?". I replied, "Humm.... I just met him last week and he wasn't married nor have any kid, Are you sure we are talking about the same Ali here?"

So to cut the story short. Do you think Ali that I know is the same person as Ali that RPK know?

This will be my last message in this discussion and I rest my case. May we all receive guidance from Allah smilies/smiley.gif


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written by lynn, July 16, 2008 12:50:56
If human race came from adam & eve, how do you explain there are 3 blood types: A,B & O?
MasterYoda, the universe is here & will always be. All these talk of jesus coming back since the 1970s never materialise & never will. How can a dead man whose body has become dust come back to earth in his original form?

And please, stop behaving like a religious idiot, calling me a monkey. You religious zealots have no substance to lean on, so you get by by being emotional. Religion IS emotional!!!

If your god is as consistent as the sun, I will pray to your god everyday. Trouble is, I know, we know, the sun will rise tomorrow but where the hell is your almighty god when he is needed? Am not scolding your god - the problem is, he doesn't exist, that's why he didn't appear when his help is needed.
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written by 98PercentPrimate, July 16, 2008 13:33:42
Master Yoda said,
With due respect to your belief,

For us who are created cannot comprehend that there can be One Person who was never created...

‘Who created God’ is a valid question, and humans are using reason given by God (if it existed) to ask that question. When humans think, God (if it exists) should be proud that his creation is a thinker and not a zombie. When humans think and ask who created god, it becomes an endless question without answer.
The question is endless because there is no god in the first place. When we accept that there is no god, then this irrational question disappear and humans do not have to suppress their reasoning power.
Even if there is no god in actuality, I agree that the concept of god is still a critical necessity for the majority of humans to assist in their optimal spiritual development, in accordance to their current human state. Since this god concept is based on faith and beliefs (no proofs), it would be best to keep it amongst themselves and not to impose their beliefs on others or condemn others who prefer to think otherwise.
Problems start when ‘believers’ insist that others must also belief in god, worse still, the god must be the same as theirs.

For the majority of humans it is a very uncomfortable, uneasy or painful feeling if they do not believe in god. If you are not sure, try denouncing god for a second or more, you will feel it. However believing in god and getting rid of those painful and terrific feelings, also induce some believers to create a hell of problems for and impede the progress of humanity.

IMO, to get the hell out of the whirlpool of religious problems it to understand one’s own human nature ([url= http://beinghuman-humannature....-path.html ) itself and take the necessary positive steps to expedite one’s spirituality within one’s own religion or elsewhere.

The Creator is not a force or a cosmic energy but rather a Person with characteristics.

This will contradict the principle that God is omnipresent, i.e. God is everywhere without exception.
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written by The dragonheart, July 16, 2008 16:03:51
Why are we allowed to read the Hadith in a language we understand but we can’t do the same thing when it comes to the Quran? When it comes to the Quran we must go seek the help of a guru to translate it for us. Yes, it is still a translation since the guru is not speaking to us in Arabic.


I am not smart in this but If one believes that that the Quran is the word of GOD, I think it should remain as it is and read it as it is.

Translation and Interpretation is not the same. To Translate means you change the language to an understandable literal meaning and to interpret means you explain the original meaning to an understandable intended meaning.

Example:
I live in KL / I lived in KL / I am living in KL
Translation in Bahasa Malaysia: Saya tinggal di KL
Translation of live is also "hidup" "menetap" etc etc
Interpretation of "live in KL" could be "duduk di KL" "maustatin di KL" " Di besar kan di KL" etc2
Retraslated of "duduk di KL" could be "I stay in KL"

Try re-translate and re- translate the words...and at the end of the day you get totally a new meaning which was not originally meant.

A guru or a learned man is the right person to translate and to interpret the Quran and to maintain its originality..

One QURAN for ALL MUSLIM and All Muslim for one Quran
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written by bakas, July 16, 2008 18:05:35
shamadz72

I love it when we have a proper discussion like this. This shows that we can agree to disagree, even though we see things differently.

Taking cue from your example then:

So we continue chatting about this person knowing that we probably talking about the same person, until when RPK asked me, "did you attend his wedding last 2 years? This question makes me wonder and I started to ask RPK.. "Are you sure he got married?", RPK nodded his head and say "Yeah... he even already blessed with a 1 year old son now. Don't you know?". I replied, "Humm.... I just met him last week and he wasn't married nor have any kid, Are you sure we are talking about the same Ali here?"

Yes, it is the same Ali. But your knowledge of Ali (in this story) is or might be incomplete, in that you didn't know he was married and have children until RPK told you or that Ali chose not to reveal his personal life to you, etc. ...Your story alone already illustrates that certain knowledge about things might not be known to us. Now, the revelation in the Injeel might be enough for the Christians to know the Way (and be saved!), but for Muslims the complete revelation is through the Quran, via Allah's Prophet. So, can't you see here that the God that we worship is in fact, one and the same? If the same God sent down the Injeel and Torah to the Christians and the Jews, then the same God cannot be a different to the Muslims as well, and hence our akidah cannot be different. Yes, the rituals, pillars of faith and beliefs are different, but we are called to do good and spread peace to all the people of the earth. Instead all we do is we waste our time making distinction between our religion to the people of different faiths and to some, even sound condescending at times! Oh! How I wish we could see God in a broader picture. God that sustains all people; those who already believe and those yet and on their journey to believe. That way, God for me becomes meaningful and closer.

But since we are closing this topic of discussion, I want to thank you for a healthy discussion on how you see things. Insya Allah, everyone will be guided to the right path, even when they cannot see things the same way.

Salam smilies/grin.gif
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written by AsamLaksa, July 16, 2008 18:39:17
Personally I do not care what the real answer is, whether there is a creator or not. Does it matter if there really is one or isn't when you can carry on your life regardless believing one really exist or not. I do not need someone or some thing over my back keeping me in line. I have no fear of any creator. I do things because I believe they are right and these arise from values that I learnt and reasoning that I applied with the maxim do not unto others as you would not want others to do unto as the core. I do not even care if I end up in heaven or hell. My actions should not be governed by any anticipation of rewards or fear of punishment in the afterlife. If I get any reward then I deserve it and if I am in line for punishment then I face it, that's how I take my life now and will use the same stand into any afterlife if there is one.

I think any belief that directly or indirectly instils sense of fear risk exploitation by a few who could use it to control/motivate the masses. The more fear it instils the more hate will spread. Fear can come from mortal punishments and also fear of punishment in the afterlife.

Thus for any faith to ever be truly universal and truly inclusive, it will need to stop propagating fear, within itself and towards others. A faith of peace is one of substance and high principles, not forms and laws.

Islam is as it is. The words of God are few but words of men are plenty. The extraction of the substance and gems of wisdom should be the focus, not the actual meaning of the words itself. The interpretation should always conform with the high principles enshrined in the Quran. Yet men argue pointlessly over words. Whatever the language a truly universal teaching will traverse the language boundary in passing on the high principles as you will find many practitioners who have no trouble applying the principles in their daily lives without the need to learn Arabic script.

Some say the Quran is 'scientific'. That's nice. If you claim something, you have to back it up with facts and sometimes this include facts from the Quran. Similar 'scientific' principles apply in other faiths where they have a holy text. Is this really scientific in the true sense? Actually not quite so.

In true scientific sense, the primary sources could and should be scrutinised yet many religious practitioners see questioning of their primary source as blasphemy or simply no go.



Someone once said that there is no sexual discrimination in the Quran, that may be so. But take note that sex discrimination is not really a bad word, it just means that there is difference in treatment based on the sex of the person. So as long as there is anything which suggest men and women have distinctly different abilities, rights and duties, they are sexually discriminating, whether they are reasonable or not is another matter. Thus where a man can marry up to 4 wives but a woman cannot marry 4 husbands (or 4 wives if you are really that particular) it shows discrimination. Is it sex discrimination? Well, yes. Is it bad discrimination? Well, not really, depending on context and situation.
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written by AsamLaksa, July 16, 2008 18:40:51
Lastly, yes, Islam is a way of life and many non-Muslims fail to see that. I don't. I see Islam as a global community too where many would see it contained within borders or locality.

Anyway, what does this way of life mean? Is it for preparing yourself for a better life or making changes to the rest of the world in accordance to the teachings? This is a big distinction in Islam where both applies with equal emphasis whereas in Buddhism or Hinduism it's more of self development. Christianity is half and half depending on denomination but most of them have more emphasis on the internal elements than the external though there is a growing evangelical tide.

This duty to incorporate external elements of imposing the Islamic view on the world regardless if it is right or wrong is problematic as it will infringe and interfere with the lives of non-Muslims. I have no answer to this. No one has. What we have are compromises and tolerance as next best thing.

There is a large groups of people who believe religion should be personal, which on it's own is fine as it encourages non-interference for the benefit of all. But is this truly what your faith teaches? Where do you draw the line of how much religious teachings should go beyond the personal? We hate Orwell's Big Brother states that pry into our private lives and nanny states which tells us what to do and don't. How far should we let religion control the lives of the people? Should total religiosity be the creation of a uniform society lacking individual characteristics or only approve of individuality that strictly conforms to the teachings? See Taleban rule or even better, look back at the Islamic golden ages and see how far they allow freedoms. In fact, early Islam allowed many freedoms and enforce laws not so much as having strict enforcement but more of achieving consensus and attitude change. For this, look at PAS' no gambling law in Kelantan where the law was passed only after taking consideration of different views (right or wrong is another issue but the method is sound).

Anyway, let's all get some things right. Set up your boundaries or find where your teachings set them. Get your principles right and then work at it along the lines. For now, one says one thing, another says another thing, no wonder Malaysian Muslims are often seen as hypocrites. It isn't Wilders, Rushdie or some Danish cartoonist giving Islam a bad name, it's some mullah here, some Muslim there. RPK wants to give a wake up call for Muslims, he's not the only one. All of them get the same crowd cheering from non-Muslims but should anyone care about that? The thing is to catch the gist and self reflect regardless of what the non-Muslims do.
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written by Panca Indera, July 16, 2008 22:14:05
Guys ceasefire, time out or whatever, focus energy on present political situation on Anwar's arrest and how we can help Him. smilies/cool.gif
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written by Panca Indera, July 16, 2008 22:26:08
NB imam Ali SERMON 17

About those who sit for dispensation of justice among people but are not fit for it.

Among(1) all the people the most detested before Allah are two persons. One is he who is devoted to his self. So he is deviated from the true path and loves speaking about (foul) innovations and inviting towards wrong path. He is therefore a nuisance for those who are enamoured of him, is himself misled from the guidance of those preceding him, misleads those who follow him in his life or after his death, carries the weight of others' sins and is entangled in his own misdeeds.

The other man is he who has picked up ignorance. He moves among the ignorant, is senseless in the thick of mischief and is blind to the advantages of peace. Those resembling like men have named him scholar but he is not so. He goes out early morning to collect things whose deficiency is better than plenty, till when he has quenched his thirst from polluted water and acquired meaningless things.

He sits among the people as a judge responsible for solving whatever is confusing to the others. If an ambiguous problem is presented before him he manages shabby argument about it of his own accord and passes judgement on its basis. In this way he is entangled in the confusion of doubts as in the spider's web, not knowing whether he was right or wrong. If he is right he fears lest he erred, while if he is wrong he hopes he is right. He is ignorant, wandering astray in ignorance and riding on carriages aimlessly moving in darkness. He did not try to find reality of knowledge. He scatters the traditions as the wind scatters the dry leaves.

By Allah, he is not capable of solving the problems that come to him nor is fit for the position assigned to him. Whatever he does not know he does not regard it worth knowing. He does not realise that what is beyond his reach is within the reach of others. If anything is not clear to him he keeps quiet over it because he knows his own ignorance. Lost lives are crying against his unjust verdicts, and properties (that have been wrongly disposed of) are grumbling against him.

I complain to Allah about persons who live ignorant and die misguided. For them nothing is more worthless than Qur'an if it is recited as it should be recited, nor anything more valuable than the Qur'an if its verses are removed from their places, nor anything more vicious than virtue nor more virtuous than vice. smilies/angry.gif smilies/angry.gif smilies/angry.gif
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written by Panca Indera, July 16, 2008 22:37:31
[ Imam Ali (a) passed the following instructions to his family a little before his martyrdom. ]

My advice to you is that you should not consider anyone as a co-worker of the Lord, be firm in your belief that there is One and only One Allah. Do not waste the knowledge given to you by the Holy Prophet (s) and do not give up and destroy his Sunnah (traditions). Keep these two pillars of Islam (monotheism and Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (s)) aloft. If you act according to my advice then you cannot be blamed for damaging or destroying the religion.

Until yesterday I was your Amir, today I am only an object from whom you can take lesson and warnings, and tomorrow I shall part company with you. If I survive this fatal wound I shall be at liberty to decide how to treat the man who attempted to kill me. If I die then my worldly life comes to an end. If I forgive my assassin then it will be to gain the Blessings of Allah for forgiving a person who has harmed you, and it will be a good deed if you also forgive him. Do you not desire to be forgiven by the Lord? I swear by Allah that death is not coming to me suddenly and unexpectedly that I may hate or abhor, neither is it such a visitor whom I may refuse to meet. So far as death by martyrdom is concerned I always expected and desired it and I now welcome it like a thirsty person who finds water when he is extremely thirsty. I am a seeker whom martyrdom finds what he was seeking for. To the pious people the best is that which they find with Allah. smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif
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written by Kingstonian, July 16, 2008 22:59:30
Dear Grandmarquis,

Great job on exposing to RPK the problems with his private views of Islam. Yes, Islam exists at a personal level but RPK does a great injustice with a selective and incomplete description of Islam as you explained.

Nonetheless, his other writings are deserving of a standing ovation and we support him in dealing with the upcoming challenges.

As for Teohism, he too should stop his selective misinterpretation of the Qur'an. He started of with Surah Al-An'am, taking exception to the verse where Allah points out that he has no son or consort. Have you forgotten the favorite New Testament verse of John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only BEGOTTEN son...." What is the meaning of begotten in the King James Version? Evidently the Revised Standard Version has thrown it out as an interpolation (an addition that was not there in the original manuscripts). Does the Catholic creed, which is the majority of Christiandom, not call Mary the Mother of God? Did we not read in Christian history a sect called the Maryamites who worshipped Mary in this capacity? We know that the Catholics only mean it in the allergorical sense but with all these possibilities and the confusion it brings, Allah is merely asking those who believe it to question the basis of their belief.

As for son of God, there are numerous examples both in Old and New Testament. Adam is called Son of God as were numerous prophets like David (may Allah bless them). Jesus (may Allah bless him) said " Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the sons of God". But when it come to Jesus, you will make him out to be more than this. For your information, even in Christiandom, there are the Unitarians who do not accept the trinity and view Jesus as only a prophet. (I won't mention the Jehovah's Witness who think the same in case you view them as a cult)

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written by Kingstonian, July 16, 2008 23:02:03
Coming to the other quotes by Teohism implying that terrorism is condoned, he quotes Surah Al-Tawbah 9:123 about fighting unbelievers. Please give a full explanation about this Surah which talks about being attacked and at war. If you are in a state of war, you don't talk about having pizza. Let's start a little bit earlier, verse 6 " Would you not fight against those who have breached their agreements and were determined to drive out the Prophet and had attacked first? Do you fear them? Surely, it is God you should fear most, if you are true believers"

If people break their agreement and attack you first, what do you do? Please don't be irresponsible. Don't selectively judge Islam based on some Muslims. Even in war, the Prophet (s.a.w.) had rules of engagement: no killing of innocent lives, women children, the old, non-combatants unlike the acceptable "collateral damage" that we see today. Therefore, when you see terrorist attacks and it being done in the name of Islam, please understand this. I won't do the same to Christianity. We all know the Catholic and Protestant conflict in recent times in Northern Ireland. We know the IRA (Irish Republican Army) bombed pubs in the England, killing innocent lives. I, for one minute, will not equate this with Catholicism or Christianity as a whole. This also applies for other religions...if Hindus attack mosques in India, should I say the religion teaches them that? If the Buddhist monks in Tibet or Myanmar fight back, should I say their religion is teaching them to attack? No, I wouldn't.

And be fair and consistent with your use of Scripture. Are you aware in the Bible of God's instruction to kill? Look at Number 31:15 where Moses instructs "....therefore, kill every male among the little ones and every women who has known a man by sleeping with him". I have a long list, in Exodus, Leviticus, even in the New testament where Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane instructs his disciples to sell everything to buy a sword. Can I quote all this and say there you are, bankyak terrorist! Last year in Nigeria, Reverend King burnt six people because "he was instructed by the Lord Jesus". Should I just say he is crazy or say that Christianity is teaching him that? Again, be careful to use an argument from Scripture if your own doesn't stand to the same test you are applying to others. (another example, although a bit outside the subject, when the West attacks the Hadd, are they aware in Deuteronomy 22:20-24, for those who engage in illicit sex "...you shall stone them to death with stones")

You say friend pun tak boleh, please read further in chapter 5. Is it everyone or certain groups? Just go a few verses down to verse 57 " Believers, do not take as protectors those who were given the Book before you or the infidels who MOCK your religion or TINKER with it...." Should we make friends with people like these or take them as our protectors? Your quotation of Chapter 4 can be dealt with in the same manner.

Hence, with your reckless interpretation, are you really being our friend??? We must discuss and dialogue sincerely, responsibly and fairly, so that we can bridge the gap and understand each other better.
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written by OrdinaryMan, July 17, 2008 00:32:40
If there is really a God who created the universe and this same God chose to speak to a being on Earth, a mere speck of an iota amongst trillions of stars is beyond my imagination.
That religion is man-made is more comprehensible. And since man is fallible - so is religion.
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written by panca, July 17, 2008 01:26:19
written by 98PercentPrimate, July 16, 2008 | 13:33:42
Master Yoda said,
With due respect to your belief,

For us who are created cannot comprehend that there can be One Person who was never created...


Lynn, 98PercentPrimate,

The creation of this and that is but a concept and not dissimilar as what one would hear like the classification of people termed as "son of the soil"(concept) but one that realistically true of myself is.....I come from the womb and through a female organ....so factually known as "PUKIPUTRA". This is real.

Realism versus Conceptualism.
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written by Panca Indera, July 17, 2008 01:58:22
Dear Kingstonian,
ref,:We must discuss and dialogs sincerely, responsibly and fairly, so that we can bridge the gap and understand each other better.""
You are kidding right.
Teochism is so ISlamophobic and so ill educated, arrogant, ignorant, He himself admits he is full of hatred to anything ISLAM.
He makes fun of religion and called himself a Christian, Buddhist Muslim.
I called him a Donkey that brays
Remember Kingstonian,
The unbelievers are united in their effort to undermind ISLAM.We as Muslims must realised this and be united in repulsing their lies.
They called us bigots and indoctrinated wannabes or misguided, but with deep thinking and reasoning we will discover their true colors and characters and who the true bigots and mischief makers are.
I leave with a sermon from Imam ALI

This message is address to those who professed to be Muslims, leaders, especially the Friday prayer leaders who acts like sheep on the podium and brays like Donkeys to their congregations who are fast asleep to the injustices and corruptions done in the name of Islam.

SERMON 130 (Nahjul Balagha by Imam Ali)
Grounds for accepting the Caliphate and the qualities of a ruler and governor
O' (people of) differing minds and divided hearts, whose bodies are present but wits are absent. I am leading you (amicably) towards truthfulness, but you run away from it like goats and sheep running away from the howling of a lion. How hard it is for me to uncover for you the secrets of justice, or to straighten the curve of truthfulness.
O' my Allah! Thou knowest that what we did was not to seek power nor to acquire anything from the vanities of the world. We rather wanted to restore the signs of Thy religion and to usher prosperity into Thy cities so that the oppressed among Thy creatures might be safe and Thy forsaken commands might be established. O' my Allah! I am the first who leaned (towards Thee) and who heard and responded (to the call of Islam). No one preceded me in prayer (salat) except the Prophet.
You certainly know that he who is in charge of honour, life, booty, (enforcement of) legal commandments and the leadership of the Muslims should not be a miser as his greed would aim at their wealth, nor be ignorant as he would then mislead them with his ignorance, nor be of rude behaviour who would estrange them with his rudeness, nor should he deal unjustly with wealth thus preferring one group over another, nor should he accept a bribe while taking decisions, as he would forfeit (others) rights and hold them up without finality, nor should he ignore sunnah as he would ruin the people.
smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif
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written by KotaDamansara73, July 17, 2008 06:44:47
MALAYSIA NO HOPE.
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written by justinlian, July 17, 2008 09:11:54
This is what all muslim should know as christianity and islam is the same .
If malay can have a name of Eva and Adam.
So does the English name of Eve and Adam.
I wonder why they must be fight to gain who has or not superiority ?
Humans greed, jealousy , Brainless is almost everywhere.
All amends is a work of Humans, No one teaches us not to respect.
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written by megahyper, July 17, 2008 10:31:37
Grand marquis:
“To the non-Muslim readers, you have to know that Islam is a religion of science and discipline. There is a science of hadith, science of jurisprudence, science of tafsir (interpretation of Quran), etc. When I say science, I do not mean technology as understood by many. But science in the context that every aspects of Islam has a methodology in arriving at it. This will answer to the question to whose truth is the truth and what Islamic worldview is.”

Wow. Now Islam is a religion of science. Need to have ways and means or methodology to arrive at it. God commands that scientific methodology be used to understand what he means?

Grand marquis:
“In this case, there is no issue about whose truth is the truth and what Islamic worldview is. The truth is the opinion that conform the MOST to the correct sciences.”

So what you are saying Islam views “truth as the opinion that conform MOST to the correct science”. As long as it mostly conforms with the correct methodology, it is the word of God. From your understanding, its not exact science, its not exact faith either, and maybe its not exact word of God as well. From whats interpreted, who can be sure its word of God?

Grand marquis:
“It is also important to note that there will be time when differences of opinions may arise. This matter Islam has its own branch of sciences to deal with the matter. In this regards, Islam takes the middle path. There are differences of opinions that are acceptable to Islam and vice versa. This opposes the extremists who do not tolerate differences of opinions and also the nonchalant who are too casual with multitude of opinions.”

Islam takes the middle path? Consensus and middle path is accepted when there’s dispute. So is it the scientific methodology? Consensus is supposedly word of God? A group of
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written by megahyper, July 17, 2008 10:35:25
Sorry, left out the last part.

Grand marquis:
“It is also important to note that there will be time when differences of opinions may arise. This matter Islam has its own branch of sciences to deal with the matter. In this regards, Islam takes the middle path. There are differences of opinions that are acceptable to Islam and vice versa. This opposes the extremists who do not tolerate differences of opinions and also the nonchalant who are too casual with multitude of opinions.”

Islam takes the middle path? Consensus and middle path is accepted when there’s dispute. So is it the scientific methodology? Consensus is supposedly word of God? A group of
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written by megahyper, July 17, 2008 10:39:09
A group of
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written by AsamLaksa, July 17, 2008 17:52:02
Megahyper, I usually laugh when Grandmarquis uses generally acceptable terms to make Islam sound nicer and in this case it's 'science'. I am not anti-Islam per se but many of his arguments and Cabearth's are very superficial and not able to survive further scrutiny.

So what if there is a science to the Hadiths, jurisprudence, etc.? I have 'science' to the way I prepare raw fish too to minimise scales flying all over the place and to get rid of all the guts. So what? Does having science for Hadiths, jurisprudence, etc. automatically make it better? Not necessarily, it can be good, pointless, or bad depending on how you use it. Having a method just means having a method. Similarly having elections does not mean it's a real democracy, just means that you have elections (see certain Info minister's phone conversation and Zimbabwe).
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written by Panca Indera, July 17, 2008 20:46:07
Time for Action
A message to all decent, peace and justice loving Malaysians

In the last two days we have seen how Justice and fair play being trampled by the Government to suit their goals and objectives while ignoring the pleads and cries for help and assistance to reduce the peoples burdens.

WE should put aside our religious differences and personal opinions and stop saying hurtful things to each other. Instead we should reach out to other like minded Malaysians who wants to see real democray and justice restored regardless of skin color or religious beliefs.
As a start I will not say or speak about religion or religious differences, or insult any one until Anwar and RPK are free men again.

In this Testing times like now, we should join forces against a common enemy who is out to destroy our beloved country.

Long Live RPK, Long live Anwar, Long live REFORMASI and long live MALAYSIANS and MALAYSIA.
How many of us are willing to carry the flag for RPK?
smilies/sad.gif smilies/sad.gif smilies/angry.gif smilies/angry.gif
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written by Malaysia Ku, July 18, 2008 00:04:11
I don’t understand this. Why do we need to argue for the things that have happened centuries ago (i.e. Islam and Christians)? Don’t you think that our life is not complicated enough? We should be fighting for more tolerance among us. After all have to share and live in this same world. Promote the similarity rather than the different. PEACE TO THE WORLD..
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written by monstercat, July 18, 2008 01:16:46
From my experience & observations, generally Muslims are adamant that their religion is the truth. They have no qualms telling that to the non-muslims; in doing so, blatantly insinuating that other religions are false. They based their beliefs on the Quran & Hadiths I think, or could be what the ulamaks taught them. They will insist that God cannot beget a son, Jesus bcos how can God have sexual intercourse with a human? They also insisted that Jesus did not die on the cross & that the bible is no longer original. They would mostly use "the bible is corrupt, revised, edited from its original form", thus cannot be used as a basis of beliefs. But they still refer to it for comparative studies & debates; worst still, they refer to the bible for prophecies of Prophet Mohammad. So based on my beliefs & to my knowledge (as per shamadz72), the Muslim's believe that the prophecy of Prophet Mohammad in the bible, esp of him being like Moses, is not accurate. Prophet Mohammad's birth was not a threat to the king & he wasn't a Jew. That's my belief & since shamadz72 can voiced out his beliefs, so can I. Can't I?? smilies/smiley.gif
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written by Thian, July 18, 2008 08:39:37
Religion has been the source of most conflicts. Not because religion is bad but the state of consciousness of their believers.

I always enjoy reading to this subject discussion (next best to discussion about race) to observe the different state of consciousness of the participants in play.

Of course, I rather discuss our experience with God. It would bring proximity for most that love God and seekers for truth; and realized the rest are rather irrelevant and seemingly trivial; definitely not to even worth getting work-up over.

It brings me great joy that on each progressive discussions on this topic there are always traceable progress.

Although some of us still more discussions; and I am sure for some, no amount of discussion can help.

Intelligent by nature is to demarcate. Exclusives consciousness is lowest part of an intelligent development. Go beyond (transcend) that is wisdom.

Exclusive consciousness need further cultivation to inclusiveness; and is best start first by being a human and internalized by their depth in compassion. From this seed, all good will develop.

Develop to inclusive consciousness. You will find God is there waiting for you.

RPK, I thank you for raising the consciousness of Malaysia.
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written by Susu08, July 18, 2008 09:49:44
RPK,
Continue to write about Islam like this. I am a practicing Muslim and I have the same point of view as you have.Any Muslim who practices Islam by purification of their hearts will also come to realise that Islam and all religions come from God . There is no call to judge non Muslims, and Muslims should leave judgment to God and not become judgmental . Muslims and those of other faiths can have a common ground and common ideals without denigrating each other's beliefs if they all connected with the SOURCE OF ALL
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written by James Loh, July 18, 2008 09:59:39
I guess the world is now Abraham believers vs. Non-Abraham believers. Oh well, as long as we live in peace, harmony and compassionate towards all beings I don't what you believe.
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written by SUV, July 19, 2008 13:38:38
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/s...ssein.html
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written by ImranJ78, July 20, 2008 01:35:10
RPK, I agree with you on one thing - that Muslims should not step on any religious freedoms of the non-Muslims. But I must disagree with your so called view of Muslims and Islam. Yes religion is between a person and his maker. But Islam encompasses more then that.. it is a way of life.

Secondly, while I have utmost respect for my Christian friends, I must state that the only strong `bind' between Islam and Christian (and Judaism) that you suggest is the fact that we believe in one God. Yes there might be a few other things that we share but these in no way lead to us sharing the same `akidah'. There are much deeper and spiritual concepts then believing in one God that defines a religion and its followers.

As such, I tend to believe that your article primarily talks about your `personal' view of Islam rather then what most Muslims believe.
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written by gundohing, July 20, 2008 08:20:59
The problem lies when majority of the Muslims voted their leaders into power because their leaders are Muslims by birth - just like them. By allowing a Muslims to lead them they have this strange belief that they are contributing to the cause of the Islamic religion, irrespective of the fact that some non-Muslim leaders are more "Islamic" in what they put in practice.
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