==> Pls visit new site at http://malaysia-today.net/ <==

Do not fear of anything if your IMAN and TAQWA is strong.......why worry have you no faith my muslim brothers?

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Hello,
U r giving a wrong perception of Islam (I hope so). Where in the world can religion be enforced against one's wish. God even doesn't do that; if He does, we are all like robots! So, r u greater than God!
U quote...
"Article 160 of the Constitution states that a Malay must be a Muslim; thus, if a Malay person declares himself a non-Muslim, what race would he (legally) belong to then?"

Hey! U don't know the difference between race and religion-kah? Malay is a race. Islam is a religion. U r confused! Where in the world does one equate race with religion except Malaysia?
Leave Lina alone. The more u comment, u r putting your foot in your mouth!

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Tracking the influence of Muslims in a society, from 1% to 100%
When Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone:

United States -- Muslim 1.0%
Australia -- Muslim 1.5%
Canada -- Muslim 1.9%
China -- Muslim 1%-2%
Italy -- Muslim 1.5%
Norway -- Muslim 1.8%

At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs:

Denmark -- Muslim 2%
Germany -- Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7%
Spain -- Muslim 4%
Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%

From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population.

They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law.

France -- Muslim 8%
Philippines -- Muslim 5%
Sweden -- Muslim 5%
Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad & Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%


When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions (Paris -- car-burnings). Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats (Amsterdam -- Mohammed cartoons).

Guyana -- Muslim 10%
India -- Muslim 13.4%
Israel -- Muslim 16%
Kenya -- Muslim 10%
Russia -- Muslim 10-15%

After reaching 20% expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning:

Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8%

At 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare:

Bosnia -- Muslim 40%
Chad -- Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7%

From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels:

Albania -- Muslim 70%
Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4%
Qatar -- Muslim 77.5%
Sudan -- Muslim 70%

After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide:

Bangladesh -- Muslim 83%
Egypt -- Muslim 90%
Gaza -- Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia -- Muslim 86.1%
Iran -- Muslim 98%
Iraq -- Muslim 97%
Jordan -- Muslim 92%
Morocco -- Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan -- Muslim 97%
Palestine -- Muslim 99%
Syria -- Muslim 90%
Tajikistan -- Muslim 90%
Turkey -- Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates -- Muslim 96%

100% will usher in the peace of "Dar-es-Salaam" -- the Islamic House of Peace -- there's supposed to be peace because everybody is a Muslim:

Afghanistan -- Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100%
Somalia -- Muslim 100%
Yemen -- Muslim 99.9%

Of course, that's not the case. To satisfy their blood lust, Muslims then start killing each other for a variety of reasons.

"Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; and the tribe against the world and all of us against the infidel." -- Leon Uris, "The Haj"

It is good to remember that in many, many countries, such as France, the Muslim populations are centered around ghettos based on their ethnicity. Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. Therefore, they exercise more power than their national average would indicate.

Adapted from Dr. Peter Hammond's book: Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots

Thanks to the Youtube user "Evil Islam" for contributing this!

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Why are we still talking about policing our faith?
We may be weak and we are, but God is strong and He can sustain His people.

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Go tao fei kei urself........ i have had relatives who just converted for the unfortunate sake of falling in love ..now there is no way out ..even these so called muslims husbands, wife bashes and leave them to fend for themselves..and in the name of islam ..they say that they are doing the right thing>>>>>>>>WTF?

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Hey you !
Are you trying to create religious tensions here in Malaysia ?? Why don't you channel your energies to better use . For a start maybe you should go to Iraq and tell the Sunni Muslims there and the Shites there to stop killing and blowing each other up .
Only people like you with no strong faith resort to writing and instigating other people to protest and making all sorts of demands . Sick of people like you .

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Dear Debbie,

With reference to the Siti Fatimah Tan case, your relative can get the Mahkamah Syariah to annull their conversion to Islam.

I understand that certain Muslims marry non muslims and then left them to fend for themselves. And I do not feel they should suffer.

I also met many Muslims married to Chinese and Indians but takes good are of their family.

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Finally,it is you who will be judged if there is a God and not your religion.Be righteous and selflessness,even God will be your friend.

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God says that believing in him does not hinge on a name
Called it Muslim, Chritians, Mormon, Hindu or whatever name
Believe in God lah. Its name is GODAMM!

In this age still talking like a baby kah?

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"Unbeknownst to the masses, even ghastlier implications would have come to manifest had Lina Joy's appeal succeeded. I beg you to consider these, for instance:

Ghastly to you, but quite trivial to the rest.

* 1) The nullification of a vast array of laws - Abdul Hamid CAJ (as he then was) in Kamariah bte Ali v Kerajaan Negeri Kelantan, Malaysia opined that in allowing Article 11 to be construed so liberally would entail making invalid entire bodies of Islamic law; e.g. Zakat laws, marriage laws, et cetera. (In short, all Islamic laws would be rendered null and void.)

Are you saying that if Kamariah or Lina were allowed to apostate, then there will suddenly be no more Muslims left to be governed by such laws? Please give our Muslims more dignity.

I'm a bit confused. Early in the article you said Lina should appear before a Shariah court if she wishes to apostate. Then you said the Shariah court should never allow any apostasy as in the Kamariah case. In other words, Lina would never have been granted her application anyway. So why ask her to appeal to the Shariah court when the outcome is a no? Catch 22.

* 2) The coming to existence of a constitutional paradox - Article 160 of the Constitution states that a Malay must be a Muslim; thus, if a Malay person declares himself a non-Muslim, what race would he (legally) belong to then? As he cannot satisfy the constitutional criteria of a Malay, he would lose not only his Malay status but his Bumiputra privileges as well.

Why should that be a concern for the courts? Why does everyone have to be clearly classified with a 'race'? Use 'Others'.

* 3) The diminution of the powers of the Syariah court - Not only would our Islamic court would be deprived of its right to adjudicate on matters of apostasy involving Muslims, said right would then be conferred to the civil court, whose judicial members are comprised of Muslims and non-Muslims trained in the intricacies of civil laws but not Islamic laws.

If a person has already embraced another religion by her own volition, why should it be subjected to any courts? To follows your argument, we should also have a Christian court, a Hindu court, an Atheist court etc to prevent people from leaving their 'faiths' or sects.

* 4) Of inheritance rights - Seeing as to the fact that Muslims and non-Muslims are governed by different inheritance laws, and the fact that non-Muslims cannot inherit from Muslims, one can easily imagine then the gory court battles that would emerge from disputes on inheritance.

In life, an adult person is expected to know the implications and consequences of her own decisions. Neither the state nor anyone else should interfere in that decision. Is that too hard to comprehend?


* 5) The impossibility of religious enforcement - Consider perhaps, a man eating eating in public in the fasting month of Ramadhan who, when arrested by religious officers, professes to having left the Islamic faith. The religious officers would be unable to perform their duties if so.

That is a problem for the enforcers to resolve and has nothing to do with any case. Even today, there are problems when Ibans, Bidayuhs and other minorities mistaken for Malays penalised for eating during Ramadhan. A quick look at the IC would clear up everything instantly. What's the fuss?

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Solitaire your comment just proved JRD's stats of the violent and imposing nature of muslims. Apparently non muslims are "lucky" to live in Malaysia and they have the previleadge to pray in temples and churches even though you would like to see...

people of your likes be stoned to death

Well done for propagating hate.

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Solitaire...
Maybe you are one of those lustful PAS members who gets aroused and have rape thoughts when you see girls with lipsticks or high heels (the ones that make tapping sounds)....

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had they won the Lina Joy case, Islam will cease to exists as we know it.

Abdul Rahman, you are definitely right about Islam.

Gone were the days of tyrants and dictators. The world evolves and tyrants vanished into oblivion. Freedom and democracy vanquish over the battle with the dark ages. So is a believe or philosophy that cannot keep up with the pace of human progress. Fears loom over the advocates of their own existence, and tyranny and imprisonment of the mind are the best tools to pacify the troubled minds.

Bless you!

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What is the jurisdiction of the Syariah Courts? What cases do they handle? Is it just Divorce & Conversion matters?

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Why aren't cases such as corruption (robbing from society), molest, rape & murder deemed more sinful than khalwat (adultery), consumption of alcohol, divorce, apostasy, eating in public etc?

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I sympathise with Lina Joy and her predicament. In being true to herself and not a hypocrite she has to make a life for herself elsewhere and cannot enjoy living in her homeland where her friends and close ones are near. She has to be in self exile for her own good.

I can understand her fear of taking this matter to the syariah court as she would be considered a traitor to her race and rehabilitated in order to 'think straight'. Should she continue to build a life for herself here and have a family again she would be charged for khalwat and seperated from her child.

She therefore has no other choice but to build a life for herself elsewhere in order to be true to herself. A pity.

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I always wondered why Muslims in the world, including in Malaysia demand big recognition for the very fact that they are Muslims. Even in a country where they are such small minorities, they create so much fear and demand things that other bigger minority groups would never do.

In Malaysia, so much money is spent on the education of Islam at all levels, beginning from kindergarten to universities as well as adult classes and other Islamic functions to keep the Muslims on the track and connected with Islam. I bet most of the money spent(90%) came from Non-Muslim tax payers money. Whereas, for non-Muslims, there is no proper education on their religions, if at all a child learns his religion, that is probably due to his parents' effort to send the child to some classes, or the the church or temples or Gurdhwara. Many would agree that 60-70% of our non-Muslim children grow up not properly educated about their religions, and yet they adhere to their religious values and spiritual values so well projecting some very good and excellent tolerance towards others. The theory is simple, "I love my religion, and I am sure you love yours too, so, as much as I love and respect mine, I will also love and respect yours for I know how it feels to be insulted and disrespected."

But, I can surely say that is never the case with the Muslims. To them, all that they know is Islam and the rest, they know nothing of and never want to learn. Thus, when they impose an Islamic ruling and Islamic law, they simply cant understand why the rest cant accept Islam as it is an excellent religion in the world. What they failed to understand is the same good values are also present in other religions and thus, the Nons do not need Islam to guide their paths in life.

The Muslims here are well educated about Islam an do enjoy a lot of privileges for the fact that they are Muslims. And yet, they are the ones who create a lot of problems even the ones forbidden by Islam....raping ones own child, premarital sex, abortion, prostitution, etc.... Why do Muslims need so much protection legally and otherwise??? Why is it the others and their religions here can survive without any of such privileges and protection????

So who is stronger and who is not???

Why after all these years, they are still scared to abolish all these laws favaouring Islam???? Are Muslims not strong enough to live Islam without such strict laws??????

Why when one Muslim convert to a non-Muslim religion it is so much pain for them when we the Nons lose our sisters and brothers on a daily basis to Islam in the name of love and marriage????

To the Muslims, I am happy that you are defending your religion, but please try and feel the pain that we go through when one of us leave to Islam, we have felt it lots of times, and what is wrong if you feel it sometimes???

What goes around comes around!!!!

Peace

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Oh brother!

1.You are an embarrassment to the muslim world with your narrow views about religion and individual
2.Not all Malays are muslims. Being Malay is not equal of being a muslim. I think you can find enough example the next time you walk in KLCC during Friday prayers.
3.Not all Non Malay are Non Muslim. In China, there are 200 mill muslim!
4.Not all Arabs are muslim – some are Christian, jews and pagans

If we really wants to promote Islam, we have to start “marketing” the religion in a different manner and not the current manner where people talk about in Islam, You cannot do this and cannot do that. Learn to start talking about what Islam allows people to do and how to do it. As a Muslim, we must talk intelligently and show our intelligence. Then we show the greatness of the religion

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I really think Solitaire is a mole.

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Religion - makes us feel good about ourselves and makes it ok to kill.

Kan?

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cabearth responce

Because they fall under the penal code, under the jurisidiction of the Civil Courts

I am fully aware of the Penal Code as applies to all in general. However, if the Syariah Courts handle matters related to the ill doings or sinful indulgences or anything going against the good teachings of the Quran.

Why as I have mentioned earlier these dosa misconduct not given a higher priority once found guilty by the civil courts?

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I personally believe Lina Joy's name will go down in history as the lady who gave Malaysia the freedom of religion. It is a unavoidable change when you have a multi racial & religion society.

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Would you force your spouse to live with you if you knew she doesn't love but hate you? but then again some people enjoy such things..

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Long winded article that can basically be summed up as "a person's individual civil rights are irrelevant if it threatens the overall practice and enforcement of a majority religion".

In other words, you are attempting to mask a deep-seated insecurity in your own religious beliefs by enforcing it on others. Meh...

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A Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Thai, vietnamese, Anglo-saxon is still a Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Thai, vietnamese, Anglo-saxon regardless of whether he/she is Muslim, Buddhist, Catholic, Protestent, agnostic, free-thinker, atheist. Can some Malay intellectual enlightthen me how come all Malay are Muslim? Is there not any Agnostic/Free-thinker among Malay population? A Malay would no longer be Malay if he is not Muslim? Race is about bone structure, skin color, culture, language, food, custom etc. It has nothing to do with religion.

I think Malays are pathetic people... they don't even have the basic right in religion freedom. Yes, they can 'apply' to change their religion in Syariah court. But chances is that they would be sent to rehab center....

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LIna Joy case is a failure by UMNO to educated the muslims about Islam.%0 years of UMNO rules only bring destruction to the faith of Islam among its followers.I dont blamed LIna Joy 100%.She was not truly brought in Islamic ways.How can she withstand the tribulations of the modern world? What did UMNO do during 50 years of their administrations? Body snatching maybe.bodies of non muslims who pretended to convert to Islam..Why should we too concern about them when there are lots of other priorities that needed to be handled immediately

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Dear admin,
I think this article published has done no good towards enforcing good will among our races and religions. It would be good if you could retract this article as the tension in the writings of the comments is ultimately shocking!
Comments from jrd, redtango and the rebuttals from solitaire and others is disgraceful.
I just wish for peace and equality no matter what religion we practice.
Stop religion bashing - no good comes from it.

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We shouldn't politicize Lina Joy case. If she wants to be a Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu then let her do it as long as the religion preach about how to be a better person.

In America, folks are free to choose their own religion. There are a lot of Christian that convert to Muslim and Buddhist. I never hear any condemnation about it from the politician.

Please let Lina Joy have her own life.

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Dear Cabearth,
The more I see your replies and comment, the more I feel pity on you and your religion.

Do try to understand more about your religion, the history, and the origin of it.
Simply keeping beards, wearing veils, and chanting in Arabic without understanding a single word of it doesnt make one more Muslim.

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cabearth wrote

MY REPLY: It's a matter of jurisdiction. The Shariah courts doesn't handle matters related to corruption etc. It's not within their Jurisdiction

So whose jurisdiction does Rahim Thamby Chik's case belong to?

The Syariah Courts, Judiciary, ACA, Police are just the tools for UMNO to victimize the peasants!

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with american father and malay mother, should he/she called themselves MALAY???

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Accurately, the Syariah Courts, Judiciary, ACA, Police are immunity tools of UMNO!!!

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He is trying to explain but found himself a fool and we can visibly see his narrowness.You are just plain stupid and your views of Islam is not helping it but destroys it further.

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Mister, sir. There are many brave Malays that love their race, but not the religion that they are born into. Too bad, the law of man does not apply. They may war serban or keep long beard, but no longer in the religion they were brought up.

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written by cabearth, June 26, 2008 | 21:07:36
It belongs to the Civil Courts. That's why it's so screwed up. Our civil court system is the most corrupted system in the world.

Our Shariah system, on the other hand, is the most credible.
That's why if Rahim was trialed under the Shariah court he wouldn't have been let go.

Then why didn't the Kadi's office intervene and prosecute Rahim Thamby Chik through the Syariah Courts instead of allowing the poor girl to be detained?

In fact this is constituted as statutory rape.

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As I said Cabearth.......go find a life,,,,, we have more important things to do than to harp on mans' made theory of what god really wants.....The bible , quoran and all the other religious books...man made mah..HE , THE MAKER WANTS US TO LIVE IN PEACE AND HARMONY..but with likes of your kind , I dont think Malaysia will get any where.
Shalom

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Taishin wrote

From the Hadiths :

if anyone changes his religion(Islam: my italics), kill him (cf. Bukhari vol. 9, bk. 84, no. 57).

Do refer to the Quran and for heaven's sake DO NOT quote out of context!!!

Traditional Islamic law prescribes the penalty of death for a Muslim who commits apostasy. The punishment is not stated in the Quran, but is said to be based on certain Hadith. The advocates and the opponents of the said penalty have, in their attempt to find Quranic support for their views, appealed to certain Quranic verses, but the fact is that none of the arguments offered do full justice to the Quranic context …

As noted above, the Quran does not come out and state explicitly that apostates should be killed. All of the neutral references I examined took this position. However, there are a number of Quranic verses that pertain to apostasy and various Muslim scholars found in them the justification to execute apostates.

You know what is said about education? A Little Education Can Be a Dangerous Thing
Henry Adams
Nothing in education is so astonishing as the amount of ignorance it accumulates in the form of facts.

So Taishin I think the above quote applies to you!

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Is there a God so cruel as to enforce with brutal force on you on what and how to believe? Strange isn’t it; when religion is about compassion, humanity, tenderness and love. Thus; it is men who would enforce such brutality and not God. So, this holy-than-thou mullahs elect themselves as ‘God’?! And yet, even God would most probably not construct such cruelty if we think wisely and intelligently. Religion by the “sword” only construct hatred and violence, between Muslims and with non- Muslims; disgusting that Islam is used this way by misguided, and most selfish and barbaric mullah men! These Islamist fanatics are on the same side of the coin as that disgusting Bush/Blair and their capitalist empire! And it’s true, before the Arab civilization dominated, Malays were a diverse lot; mostly pagans and Hindus/Buddhists. And the Malay Balinese are still Hindus and most Malay Filipinos are Catholics. And now in modern Malaysia, even the system of beliefs and practises within Muslims are diverse such as being liberal, feminists an so on.

And to you Cabearth, disgusting injustice that is, when religion is enforced and sealed through politicizing it, in absolute form within the Constitution when it should be from the heart and soul!

Noor Aza Othman
Women for Justice Support Group Project.
This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it

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written by taishan, June 26, 2008 | 18:43:00
From the Hadiths :

if anyone changes his religion(Islam: my italics), kill him (cf. Bukhari vol. 9, bk. 84, no. 57).

TAISHAN, YOU'RE A DISGRACE TO THE ISLAMIC CIVILIZATION! WHY DON'T YOU GO AND JOIN YOUR BROTHER OSAMA AND HIS TALIBAN CAVEMEN IN THE CAVE IN AFGHANISTAN/PAKISTAN THERE AND NEVER COME BACK! PRIMITIVE LOSER! AND IF YOU DARE TO THREATEN ME OR ANYONE ELSE, I'LL REPORT YOU TO THE POLICE! BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE - A TERRORIST AND SOCIOPATH CRIMINAL!

NOOR AZA OTHMAN,
Women for Justice Support Group Project
This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it .

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Our Shariah system, on the other hand, is the most credible.

=====================


ROTFLOL!
So it is your website - no wonder .....
And I thought of indulging in a debate here!
Have a good day RC!

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As we know more of the cosmo through science, we can all exclaim, "WOW! God IS really GREAT!". But when we go back to religious fundamentalism based on the holy books, God is made to look so small, selfish, egoistical, blood-thirsty, narrow-minded, indecisive, inconsistent, busybody, fearful, bias and irrational.

Now, please choose which God you believe in that really exist!

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Cabearth, hey, I thought you mullahs hate modernity and western way of life so much! Caught you didn't I?! Pathetic;that you want to dress women and girls in stupid burkhas whatever, and enforce female behaviour and way of thinking that belong in the Stone Age; and yet you mullah guys love all the good life that modernity and westernization have to offer you! HYPOCRITE!

NOOR AZA OTHMAN
WOMEN FOR JUSTICE SUPPORT GROUP PROJECT.

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Dear Labisman/MT Admin

MT bandwith space will be jammed and unproductively utilized if you continue to allow access to this postings crafted by cabearth/tulang besi/rahman celcom.

Just ask Farouk Peru and he will tell about his encounter with this blogger.

Let him have his space in his own website.

Don't forget he is literally a walking encyclopedia on matters relating to Islam. No one can challenge his authority and intellectual dispositions, not even the Imams, religious scholars and the like.

Insyi-Allah, may he have peace and tranquility and may wisdom of his heart shines and showers his compassion to all the ignorant and uneducated.

MT Admin - please close this topic and move on to the next higher level of operations.

Salam.

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There are LOTS of much more important things for Malaysians to debate on.

Debating about Religion? Geez. I think most adults realize that that's one of the most pointless things to spend time on.

How boring. Yawn. Goodnight people. Dont lose too much sleep on this ok?

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I can see why the editors didn't want to publish the article! It's an affront to good reason especially in the lower section on the implications if Lina Joy won her case. I have to agree with Tsunami08 on the rebuttal of points.

Cabearth, more of your hypocritical stuff? When something suits your purpose you conveniently ignore the unsound basis of it. For example, yes the Federal Constitution gave a definition on what a Malay is. It goes along the line practising Islamic faith and living a Malay lifestyle. What this does is create a paradox where this so-called race is defined by faith and culture. Why is this a paradox? Well, look up the definition of race which placed emphasis on descent and hereditary. Thus Malay is not really a race by definition. In fact, following the constitution, anyone can become a Malay if they fulfil the faith and lifestyle criteria. Thus a Chinese, Indian, Caucasian, Mongolian, etc. can be Malays.

So, what is this Malay race in the constitution then? It's a creation of convenience based on majority of the so-called Malay characteristics. You see, before the constitution, people can recognise who is a Malay but no one can really define. What the constitution did was try to define something which cannot be defined. This is a fundamental flaw narrowing the concept of what is Malay to the exclusion of those previously recognised as Malays after the constitution may find themselves not a Malay, for example previously non-Muslim Malays.

So, yes you want to protect your constitution but what if it is flawed? What does good sense or even the Quran tells you about flawed rules that burden others?

Anyway, it is not unconstitutional for Lina Joy to be declared a non-Muslim, she just would not be under the constitutional definition of a Malay. No constitutional problem as definition of Malay does not require any hereditary grounds.



Cabearth you say you pity Lina Joy's parents, sure, while many others like me pity Lina Joy more. Why is that? It's not that we do not understand the troubles her parents had to go through. The difference is in the values. Those who pity Lina Joy more over the plight of her parents place higher importance on individual rights over the concerns of the parents. Is this right? Up to you to think about it.



On Lina Joy's application to the civil courts rather than to the syariah courts, I am of the opinion no one should have the power to decide what anyone should believe. Why do you even need an apostasy ruling? If someone don't believe then let them be. Why complicate matters with rules?

OK, so there's a law. Fine. So Lina Joy should apply to the syariah courts to opt out of Islam. But why didn't she do that? Because of fear. There are others before her who were forcibly taken into rehab. Unless you can guarantee that no harm will befall her, I would encourage her to make a fresh application in the syariah courts, not so much to tell her what she should or should not believe but just to comply with legal procedure so that she can get on with her life.

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Dear Asam Laksa,

Very commendable rebuttal to Cabearth. But you know what? He will not let you go on this..... and predictably, this walking encyclopedia will return and give his piece of sermon to you.

He is the legend - the true and pure defender of Islam.

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A MI, on a finer point, your comment on Taishan quoting the Quran out of context is misplaced. He wasn't even quoting the Quran but the Hadiths. I don't agree with what Taishan is trying to show but I also do not agree with your misplaced comment.

Noor Aza, Cabearth rightly chastised you concerning your outburst against Taishan's post. Want to whack, don'tlah spew more nonsense. Don't lose your cool.

Cabearth, there is no irrefutable proof that the Quran is God-made or man-made. If you believe it's God-made then so be it. Others want to call it whatever, so be it as it doesn't demean the values it teaches. Maurice Bucaille believes then good for him. Lina Joy believes something else then good for her too. Can you accept this?

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Dear Asam Laksa,

See, told you so. This walking encyclopedia will rebut every MT comments made by the readers. No one will be spared.

He is the fearless one, the true custodian and personification of the teachings of Islam as passed down by the Prophet (PBUH).

This postings will continue and continue as what had occured in the past.

This walking encyclopedia will rebut and rebut until the cows come home.

And the cows will not come because MT Admin allows the cows to roam in the dark.

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To Abdul Rahman Abdul Talib aka tulang besi,

My muslim friends tell me that there are two sets of laws in Islam.

The First and most important is in fact not laws, but a set of codes - code of living - commandments directly from Allah (if you permit me, as a non-muslim to use the term Allah).

The Second set of laws is known as Hadith and apparently, these were NOT directly from Allah.

I am not a muslim, so I cannot comment on this (which is strange, because if Islam is so merciful, then I should be allowed to comment, positively or otherwise). But I have read many essays and articles in the net. It is also my impression that the hadith is not from Allah.

Thats why some muslim scholars say that its dangerous for muslims to adhere to the hadith which, because it is not from Allah, the hadith is imperfect and is open to misinterpretations and maybe twisted by men who are evil.

Following some of the muslims scholarly discussions, it seemed to me that the commandments in the Koran are very reasonable and fair.

Whats the big deal then about the hadith?

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No wonder the Quran says that on the day of judgement the Prophet will say "O my Lord! Surely my people have forsaken this Quran". (25:30)

Yes, we are to follow the hadith of the Prophet. But does it say anywhere in the Quran that we must follow whatever is compiled by Bukhari, Muslim, Malik, etc? Did the Prophet say that after him will come Bukhari, Muslim, etc and we are to believe whatever they compile? So why are so many Muslims treating the compilations of Bukhari, Muslim, etc as if they are 100% the hadith of the Prophet, and in some cases these compilations are used to override what the Quran says?

In simple words, 2:54 says "You who have been led astray, repent! And kill those who led you astray". It does not say that those who were led astray should be killed.

The Quran states "Let there be no compulsion in religion..: (2:256)

The Quran further says:
"Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe and reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them on the way".

Believes... rejects.... believes... rejects...
Is there any death penalty or ANY punishment on earth mentioned here? And at what stage should they be killed? After rejecting faith once? or twice? or three times? And what sense does it make for the Quran to mention "Allah will not forgive them nor guide them..." if they are already given the death penalty?

By the way, the hadith about killing apostates apply only to those who leave Islam and then mislead others to follow them, just as mentioned in 2:52. If they leave Islam without bothering other Muslims, then the verse "Let there shall be no compulsion in religion" should be followed.

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Ah, religion again. Nice, ... brings in readership.

Muslims in Malaysia enjoy a false sense of security, because muslim judges are unable to discharge their duties unbiasedly, regardless of their personal faith.

IOW, they are corrupt!

However, now more and more judges have found their conscience and are willing to speak up, and exert their independence and discharge their judicial duties irrespective of religion. One has even called a prominent muslim as 'a devil incarnate'.

All Malaysian have unrestrained freedom of religion! Inferior Shariah courts have no right to decide on religious freedom; that is to be decided by High Courts only.

We have such a critical mass of such Malaysian, muslims included, who are willing to stand up and speak out on principles!

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Dear apa jadi,

You cannot equate RPK, Peru Farouk, Farish et al, with this walking encyclopedia.

He stands tall and high above the rest. Soon his name will be recognised by wikipedia as the world renown theologian on Islam, next in line with Bukhari and his contemporaries.

Alas, he has worshopped his INTELLECT as his true and the only GOD.

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I just came back from an overseas trip to Melbourne. The taxi driver was from Afghanistan. He shocked when he studied 10 years in a religious school and he curse the mullahs - he said learnt religion yes but learnt bull shit otherwise -all he taught was to make sure he kills kafirs - that is his own words. How come this guy saays this unless the mullahs are really bullshit. Shocking and the mullahs close all clinics even those for women and children. and girls above 8 are banned from going to school. babaric indeed but maybe we should do this in Malaysia too...

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Cabeath, Cars can kill you, did you know that? And if women want to wear lipstick taht can kill her, it's her free choice! That's what feminism is partly about, get it?!

And to you Taishan, you did not write like wanting to have a debate; but more like issuing a threat! Or is it that you now believe in freedom of speech and belief? THEN LET US WHO DON'T BELIEVE FANATICALLY NOR BELIEVE IN ANYTHING LIKE YOU, HAVE THAT FREEDOM; GET IT?!

NOOR AZA OTHMAN,
WOMEN FOR JUSTICE SUPPORT GROUP PROJECT.

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The Malays in Malaysia, lost their absolute independence on the 31st August 1957, when Malaya received its independence from Great Britain, because UMNO grabbed from the Malays, their independence to the choice of a religion. Today a Malay is a happy Muslim though he has lost that essence of independance to a choice. Many Malays have expressed their dissatisfaction in the quiet. If they so desire a change they have to voice it out through their clubs, associations, parties and perhaps through the websites and Blogs.

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The following is a copy of an article from one of the blogs, which copy I had saved.

Does Islam allow apostasy?
AB Sulaiman
Jul 21 2007, 04 4:16pm
I had made the observation that (Malay) Muslim apostates lived in a state of suspended animation, with Islam saying on one hand they are free to change their religion on their own volition, but on the other, the Syariah law stating they may lose their lives should they do so.
The operating principle seems to be - ‘Islam stands for the freedom of religion but if its own adherents choose to leave it, they will be punished, or even be put to death.’
I sense an inherent contradiction here.
This contradiction being pretty obvious, I had to seek clarification on Islam’s ruling on apostasy - does this great religion allow apostasy, or does it not? Within the parameters of human reasoning and logic only one rule can prevail, not both at the same time.
I had offered a possible interpretation - that Islam does allow for apostasy, but its very dogmatic adherents and sentinels have narrowly interpreted its teachings by imposing rigid conditions.
I read with bemusement Zahid Abbas’ quick response to my observation. His latest letter went along the same lines, that there is nothing wrong with Islam or with any religion for that matter. It is the adherents, the believers of religions who are wrong. I appreciate his sugar-coated explanation.
But sadly, he does not identify who these ‘believers’ are who have created a contradictory situation. Does he refer to the apostate who wishes to leave, or the narrow-minded adherent who might have created the conditions making it tough, and even impossible, for the apostate to leave? To me at least, the contradiction remains unresolved.

But I know the contradiction is still there, and it has to be resolved. It has something to do with the human mind wishing to seek truth. Truth is analogous to good health. There is only one good health but many thousands of illnesses. Similarly, there is only one truth but many speculations and approximations.
Also when ill, we need to secure medicine to come back to good health. But we resort to rationalisation, guesses, suppositions to cover the open gap between approximation and truth.
In the process of covering up, we may fall under the temptation of lies, compromises and deceits. We may become intellectually dishonest.

So, back to the quest for truth about apostasy - is there freedom of religion in Islam? I had committed myself to state: Yes, there is, on the authority of Surah 2.256 of the Quran that says very clearly, ‘Let there be no compulsion in religion’.
I had also mentioned that the Federal Court agrees to this postulation, and so does Zahid. The truth therefore is that a Muslim can be free to renounce his religion.
What about the punishment meted out to Muslim apostates?
On this point I am not prepared to commit any categorical view, for I am not a religious scholar or imam. I am a mere Encik Ordinary Man - orang biasa - and I remember my ustaz always reminding me not to make any religious comments because of this deficiency.
I had hinted, though, that the punishment could be carried out by overzealous believers who go overboard in their effort to protect the sanctity, integrity and prestige of Islam. I seek confirmation from qualified religious authorities whether or not there can be some substance or truth here.
If the answer is in the positive, I feel entitled to ask this question: are their actions not contradictory to the original postulation that Islam allows for freedom of belief, even to the extent of nullifying the principles of religious freedom?
I can see that if the answer is a yes, then Islamic scholars and spiritual leaders must acknowledge this overzealousness, and correct it.
If the answer is a no, then skeptics will tend to describe Islam as a religion with contradictions. This negative reputation will in the long-term erode the sanctity, integrity and prestige of Islam which its adherents were determined to protect in the first place.
Either way, this thorny issue should be discussed in the open. Admittedly it is not easy, given the sensitive nature of any discussion on Islam in this religion-conscious country.
But there again, nothing is easy anymore in this complex world.

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written by cabearth, June 26, 2008 | 19:53:21

written by Chaptokam, June 26, 2008 | 18:41:38
Hey you !
For a start maybe you should go to Iraq and tell the Sunni Muslims there and the Shites there to stop killing and blowing each other up .
Only people like you with no strong faith resort to writing and instigating other people to protest and making all sorts of demands . Sick of people like you .


Well, before the Occupation of Airaq, there was no Sunni-Syiah tension. They were living side by side as neighbors and they've done so for the last 700 years. There wasn't even a trace of sectarian tension.

BUT, after the occupation, we see tension rising out of no where.

So, maybe u need to ask the Americans that. It's mostly their fault.

cabearth, pls get your facts right. Read the facts below:

The Shia suffered indirect and direct persecution under post-colonial Iraqi governments since 1932, especially that of Saddam Hussein. Under Saddam public Shia festivals such as Ashoura were banned. It is said that every Shia clerical family of note in Iraq had tales of torture and murder to recount.[46] In 1969 the son of Iraq's highest Shia Ayatollah Muhsin al-Hakim was arrested and allegedly tortured. From 1979-1983 Saddam's regime executed 48 major Shia clerics in Iraq.[47] They included Shia leader Mohammad Baqir al-Sadr and his sister. Tens of thousands of Iranians and Arabs of Iranian origin were expelled in 1979 and 1980 and a further 75,000 in 1989.[48] Shia opposition to the government following the first Gulf War was reportedly suppressed.

Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...tions#Iraq

Do you actually think msian are that easily fooled?

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Malaysian Muslims are stupid F**ks who have been fatihfully following UMNO's version of Race based Religion...

The people who should be PANCUNG-ED KEPALA are these political Idiots...

Muslims in Malaysia, whatever the race are naive and gullible. they are current on the deffence and will go all out to defend a religion which they know just bit and pieces of...

Yes I say bits and peices.... For one, they can read but don't understand.
For another, they rely on the Imams and teachers to explain verses to them.
Yet another, their is no real desire the search out te Quran
and whatever they explaination received, they swallow it like kids. So the Imam can explain the Quran that suits his agenda or the governemtns agenda or even a terrorist agenda...

as far a i know is more than 100000 islamic sects in the world and every sect says the other is not going to heaven!!!

Islam = nonsense, why?
because i have give my wife breasts to a guest to suckle on.... oh its in the books... go read up !!

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cabearth,

As I mentioned above, 2:54 says kill those who led the people astray, not kill all apostates.

3:72 describes a similar situation, this time concerning some Jews in Medinah. Following the revelation of 3:72, and consistent with 2:54, Rasulullah ordered that anyone who converts to Islam and then shortly after becomes an apostate, should be killed. Again, the reason is, as stated by 3:72, these people were trying to mislead other Muslims, and so, in accordance with 2:54, they should be killed.

But there is no death sentence for those who become apostate without trying to influence others to follow them. There simply is nothing in the Quran to support this claim. For them, we should be looking at 2:256 and 4:137, and leave them alone. Their punishment is with God alone.

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written by Tambunan Boy, June 26, 2008 | 18:18:27

Do not fear of anything if your IMAN and TAQWA is strong.......why worry have you no faith my muslim brothers?

TYPICAL QUOTATIONS FOR BRAINWASHING FROM ROBOTS, OR A LAME EXCUSE TO JUSTIFY IMPOSING ONE'S RELIGION TO OTHERS.,..!!!!

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written by Iskandar11, June 26, 2008 | 20:50:37

Dear admin,
I think this article published has done no good towards enforcing good will among our races and religions. It would be good if you could retract this article as the tension in the writings of the comments is ultimately shocking!
Comments from jrd, redtango and the rebuttals from solitaire and others is disgraceful.
I just wish for peace and equality no matter what religion we practice.
Stop religion bashing - no good comes from it

Dear Iskandar11,

I think to allow such discussion going has its merits. We do need to provide a chance for the community here to regulate ourselves before we could learn how to regulate ourselves. The learning process is painful and unsettling, but if we actually overcome the pain, then we will emerge stronger.

The internet is the unprecented place for dissenting views be expressed and yet most people can still pause and think what they read or write. Sure some abrasive language would have been nice to be tuned down -- however it is prefered for the community to learn how to tune down abrasive language through the discourse and the casted votes, rather than having a "big brother" to censor it. We, just like the learning toddlers, need room to learn. The parental comfort is an easy way out, but resorting to the comfort zone is also a lost opportunity. I think the risk involved for such discourse in internet is tolerable.

Another thing to learn from the heated discourse is that for the time being in the nation, it is too risky for having religion discussion among politicians or some might even argue there is any benefit at all for politicians to talk about religion.

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written by jrd, June 26, 2008 | 18:29:43

Tracking the influence of Muslims in a society, from 1% to 100%
When Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone:

MR JRD..

You have written the most excellent anaylysis i ever read....

here in sabah, we have a simple description for that...

HOW TO BOIL A FROG...

If you take a from and put it into a pot full of hot water, it will do its best to jump out and survive.
Nah...instead, put the frog in a pot with cool water and cover the lid. Then slowly slowy heat the pot.....

You know what, the frog will not realise what is being done to it, in fact it might even enjoy its own soup...

THATS HOW ISLAMISATION IS DONE IN MALAZUTBOLEHLAND

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written by lembu susu, June 26, 2008 | 18:23:58

Hello,
U r giving a wrong perception of Islam (I hope so). Where in the world can religion be enforced against one's wish. God even doesn't do that; if He does, we are all like robots! So, r u greater than God!

HELLO LEMBU SUSU, OBVIOUSLY, YOU NEVER EVER HEARD OF MALAYSIA, AND THEIR SYARIAH COURTS, ETC... PLEASE GO BACK TO SCHOOL AND LEARN TO READ ...

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This is precisely why the world must unite in the War On Terror, and wipe out this scourge of humanity, this pus-filled canker sore, this abomination from the desert, called Islamic civilization.

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CARBEAT SAID
To even suggest Islam to be a religion is a lie. Islam is a comprehensive way of life which covers both private and public domains.

COMPREHENSIVE WAY OF LIFE? SO WHAT, U BELIEVE IT, U PRACTICE IT, NO ONE GONNA STOP YOU...BUT WHAT OF OTHER RELIGIONS, OR NO RELIGION, ARENT THEY WAY OF LIFE?
WHO IS QUALIFIED TO DECIDE WHAT IS AND WHAT IS NOT WAY OF LIFE? YOU USTAZ AND YOUR MULLAHS?

PUBLIC DOMAIN... AHA.. PERHAPS THIS IS THE EXCUSE YOU PEOPLE USE TO IMPOSE YOUR RELIGIOUS WAY OF LIFE TO OTHERS.. WHO CHOSE NOT TO BELIEVE IN YOUR GODS

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written by Solitaire, June 26, 2008 | 18:52:45


Dear jrd,

It seems you did a lot of homework and extracting all this information and post it here just to satisfy your lust to eliminate Islam from this country.
For your kind information, i wish Malaysia will be under the HUDUD law so i can see people of your likes be stoned to death. Better still, PANCUNG SAMPAI MATI.
But you and your fellow kafir are lucky lots.

THANKS SOLITAIRE..

YOU HAVE JUST PROVEN THE INCONSISTENCY OF ISLAMIC PREACHINGS..
U TALK ABOUT ALLAH IS GREAT AND MERCIFUL, BUT YOU JUST PROVEN THAT ALL OF YOU ARE VIOLENT, AND WOULD NOT ACCEPT ANYONE WHO DONT BOW DOWN TO YOUR KETUANAN ISLAM... IMPOSITION, IMPOSITION IMPOSITION, USING THE LAWS, POLITICS, GOVT, NGOS RELIGIOUS ORGANISATION, TO ENSLAVE OTHERS TO YOUR DICTATORSHIP. SCREW YU TOO.

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SOLITAIRE SAID

So be it, if they decided to denounce the religion and embrace another which after reaching 21 or after falling in love with another kafir, it their own bloody choice.
The government in fact cant say and do much because they are not implementing the HUDUD law here. In Islamic law, such action will be resulted in death.

SOLITAIRE, UR STATEMENT AGAIN PROVES BEYOND DOUBT THAT U MOSLEMS ARE BIG HEADED, THAT ONLY UR RELIGION CAN QUARANTEE U TO HEAVEN...

YOUR USE OF WORD "KAFIR " IS THE KEY..

Even if proven only islam can bring u to heaven, it is still my right to refuse to go to heaven.. when are you ever going to comprehendi aaah?

Me a kafir? anti god? show me your god first, anyone can talk bullshit..

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cabearth wrote..

Well, before the Occupation of Airaq, there was no Sunni-Syiah tension. They were living side by side as neighbors and they've done so for the last 700 years. There wasn't even a trace of sectarian tension.
BUT, after the occupation, we see tension rising out of no where.
So, maybe u need to ask the Americans that. It's mostly their fault.

But you forgot to mention about Saddam Hussien who a Sunni had an iron grip on the Shiites during his rule.

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written by ahmisk, June 26, 2008 | 22:15:57

There are LOTS of much more important things for Malaysians to debate on.

Debating about Religion? Geez. I think most adults realize that that's one of the most pointless things to spend time on.

How boring. Yawn. Goodnight people. Dont lose too much sleep on this ok?

AHMISH..

i am not here to debate religion, just to defend peoples right TO HAVE, OR TO HAVE NO RELIGION....

AND TO STOP MOSLEM FROM IMPOSING THE "WAY OF LIFE" CRAP ON OTHERS, JUST LIKE IN KELANTAN, NO HIGH HEEL, NO THIS , NO THAT, ALL CRAP CREATED BY CRAPPED MINDED PEOPLE

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Talk about religion, many people are sensitive.

Because of religion, people hate and kill each other and others.

Is this what God wants?????

Don´t force others or make laws to suit your religion for others to obey!

Let them think for themselve what they want and how their life be, not you and your religion decide what they want to be.

Live free and peaceful.

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written by Iskandar11, June 26, 2008 | 20:50:37

Dear admin,
I think this article published has done no good towards enforcing good will among our races and religions. It would be good if you could retract this article as the tension in the writings of the comments is ultimately shocking!
Comments from jrd, redtango and the rebuttals from solitaire and others is disgraceful.
I just wish for peace and equality no matter what religion we practice.
Stop religion bashing - no good comes from it.

YES, ISKANDAR.... WE CAN STOP RELIGIOUS BASHING IN INTERNET..MT ETC..

will not stop the bashing in the real world of malaysia as long as political parties such as UMNO and PAS continue to exist

When these type of parties cease to exist, only then can we have peace and harmony amongsts all people of the world

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Rozlan wrote: LIna Joy case is a failure by UMNO to educated the muslims about Islam.50 years of UMNO rules only bring destruction to the faith of Islam among its followers.I dont blamed LIna Joy 100%.She was not truly brought in Islamic ways.How can she withstand the tribulations of the modern world? What did UMNO do during 50 years of their administrations?

Once upon a time, long ago, Malays in Malaysia (especially kampong folks) were respected because of the culture they practiced such as gotong-royong, helpful, kind, berbudi bahasa, and so on so forth. Today, if you look at the youths, some of the Indians and the Chinese are more polite than most Malay youths. For e.g., go to any shop, you'll find Chinese shopkeepers are very polite when taking money from the customers or giving back the change, i.e. they hand the money using their right hand, while their left hands extended under their right hand. Actually this was originally practiced by the Malays of the olden days. But, today it is very difficult to find one doing so. Instead, it is the Chinese that usurped it into their culture, knowing well that, that is a very polite gesture to entertain their customer.

What happened? Were the Malays very polite since the beginning of this race? I believe the answer is no. The Malays were once without religion. They practiced animism, something similar to the Orang Asli. Everything is controlled by spirits, and dukun and bomoh have the power to chase the spirits that caused people to be sick.

Then Islam came, and the Malays embraced Islam. This religion propagates good akhlak amongst its followers. Kind hearted, helpful, polite, respectful of others, do good deeds, avoid doing harm to oneself and unto others, are some examples of good akhlak. A Muslim practices all these because he believes that Allah wants him to do so. So as long as a Muslim is truly a Muslim in the real sense, he will not harm others. This has been exemplified by Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w). There are many examples that showed his kindness to the Jews who were also residing in Madinah then.. For example, a young Jewish boy used to serve the Prophet and he became sick, and so the Prophet went to visit him.

It is reported that a funeral of a Jew passed before the Prophet (peace be upon him). As a sign of respect, the Prophet stood up. The Prophet was asked "Why did you stand up for a Jewish funeral?" The Prophet replied, "Is it not a human soul?" (Al-Bukhari).

It is reported that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) had a Jewish neighbor who used to throw garbage in his way, but when the Prophet heard one day that the neighbor was sick he went to visit him.

However, once Islam is only in the name, the man becomes an enemy of Islam. He claims to be a Muslim, but he behaves just the opposite. What happens to those who are not Muslims and do not understand Islam. They will fear Islam and have a lot of misgivings and misunderstanding on Islam because of his portrayal of Islam.

For the last 50 years, what has the government done to propagate the real Islam to the Muslims? Yes, a lot of money has been spent for the teaching of Islam. But what kind of Islam? A lot more money has been used to make the Muslims becoming less and less Islam, and to make the non Muslim misunderstand Islam. There is no country in the world today that can claim itself to be Islamic state yet like the first Islamic state in Madinah during Prophet Muhammad's time. Even Kelantan which is trying to has not been able to achieve much (the BN federal government is sabotaging their efforts). Still, at least I heard from my non Muslim friends from that state they are not mistreated there. Corruption are minimal hence it makes it is very easy to do business there compared to Selangor or KL where one have to bribe his way to get license to do business or to get contracts.

So why not we stop hurtling accusations against each other here, and instead try to understand Islam better, Muslims and non Muslims. Islam is a great religion. Get your examples of Islam from the real Muslims. For e.g. the MB of Kelantan. But don't read about him through the MSM, he's misquoted most of the time, or the analysis of his statements are not fair. Go and see him personally at his house. You will be at awe with his piety, humbleness, down to earth, etc. I know because I have seen him, and talked to him. Hopefully you will be better informed about how a Muslim should behave.

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even I am a non Muslim but I know there is some word in quran saying abut religion freedom, 1) There is no force in religion 2) you shall have your religion and I shall have mine. Did the muslim today practice what the quran told? Why want to force Lina Joy to believe in what she don't want?

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aiyah ! let's live in PEACE lah for human sake, 'to live & let live' lah !!

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kzai,

Cikgu to most malays in malaysia is umno..so how do you expect them to behave? If Islam is the cikgu to the malays here, that would be a different story of sort.

"An nas!! ala deen mulk qihim..." No need much headache lah to thinklah..story awredi know maa!

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Dear JRD,

You are spot on with your statistics and the resulting consequences when Muslim vermin start infesting civilized society.

Another phenomenon seen in the West, especially Europe, with rising numbers of Muslims is an increase in rapes. Somebody challenged you earlier for evidence, well, it doesn't get anymore clearer than this:

http://gandalf-reconquista.***...ghter.html

As you can see, even in Malaysia, sex crimes are disproportionately highest amongst which group? And why are Islamic leaders in PAS more obsessed with womens hemlines, lipstick, heels, etc., instead of important issues of governance?

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I am not a Muslim. I am an Atheist.

In Malaysia, Islam is the official religion and has been ever since Merdeka – this fact I trust we are all agreed. Besides this, it is also special in that, for all Muslims and Muslims only, there is a separate and distinct voluntarily accepted jurisprudence and legal court that rules and decides on personal Islamic issues. This, I believe, no Muslim will deny.

Islam has laws and practices that appear harsh or strange or unreasonable to non-Muslims and even some Muslims. These practices and laws are not secretive rules and regulations that are only known to Muslims, or are suddenly foisted upon a convert once he becomes Muslim. No, these are open and well-known facts.

In fairness to Islam, it is not the only religion that imposes peculiar requirements on its devotees and harsh punishments if they drift wayward. Other religions too have their strict rules and regulations and punishments. The Catholic Church, a long time ago, would burn you at the stake if you said that the Earth revolved around the Sun. They no longer do that, although the department of the Church that did that is still around under another name. The Hindus, also long ago, expected widows to jump into the funeral pyres of their newly dead husbands. They also do not do that anymore. I am not belittling or trying to instigate hatred for these religions. I purposely chose these extreme examples to illustrate that many religions, not just Islam, will, at one time or another, in this place or the next, have some strange practices.

Muslims generally do not go around proselytizing. In this regard, I respect Muslims, because they do not engage in the more insidious and hypocritical practices that a few other religions do. This is important to me because the practitioners of some other religions appear to regard me as a free-for-all target, to be saved from himself at all costs, the moment I declare myself an Atheist. I find that not only insulting but disgusting as well.

I trust you would agree that, in Malaysia, no one is coerced or forced to be a Muslim.

Do many converts truly and fully grasp the implications of the act when they convert?

Yes, it is the duty of the religious governing body certifying the conversion to ensure that a convert is truly and completely converted before certifying. But, how can this be done with certainty?

When you convert you will gain, no!, demand the rights and privileges that a particular religion can confer on its believers. Would it then not be right, or just, to expect that you, the voluntary convert, fully comply with the obligations and laws of that religion as well?

Muslims (born or converted) find it near impossible to officially renounce Islam when they no longer believe. I have great sympathy for these people because it is really pitiful to be yoked with the practices of a religion you no longer hold to be true. So what do they do? They run to the federal courts claiming constitutional protection to relieve them of their grief. I think this is wrong and I have no sympathy for this action.

Yes, our Constitution guarantees freedom of religion. It still does. Which is why we have so many different kinds of religions and so many different kinds of people freely practicing them. The federal courts are not, and have never been, intended to be the arbiter of what is divine or godly. They cannot judge whether a person is Buddhist, or Christian, or Muslim. They are not supposed to!

How could the federal courts, in fairness, judge you to be an apostate just simply upon your application and declaration, when they did not have the power to judge you a follower of the religion that you had wanted to be a part of in the first place? The courts cannot take away what they cannot give. The federal courts can intercede in the case where one has been duped into converting. Otherwise, they, rightly, should not. And this is not about ignoring the Constitutional guarantee. This is about exercising good judgement.

I feel very sorry for Muslims (for that is what you became when you converted and made the necessary declaration) who want to renounce but still cannot. But, they did not walk blindly into that religion. They have to face the consequences with the religious governing body which they had voluntarily embraced in the first place.

Conversion is a very serious matter with very serious and complicated consequences. Do not take it lightly or as a matter of convenience. And also, for both converts and by-births, if you find the laws and practices of your religion to be unbearable or unreasonable, by all means, take actions to change them, but from within your own religion and with your own people. Asking a secular court to decide a religious issue will only create unwanted social and legal problems. It takes time, but all religions will evolve and mellow eventually. That is your consolation.

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written by Sabahfan, June 27, 2008 | 00:33:53

written by Chaptokam, June 26, 2008 | 18:41:38

Hey you !
Are you trying to create religious tensions here in Malaysia ?? Why don't you channel your energies to better use . For a start maybe you should go to Iraq and tell the Sunni Muslims there and the Shites there to stop killing and blowing each other up .
Only people like you with no strong faith resort to writing and instigating other people to protest and making all sorts of demands . Sick of people like you .



PERHAPS MR CHEAPBULLH... EITHER YOU ARE UNABLE TO ACCEPT THE TRUTH, IN PERPETUAL DENIAL, OR A BULLHITER

Sabahfan,

Can you write proper English and can you understand proper English !!!
I dont understand what you are implying , Me cheapbullh you must be a NUT .
Secondly what truth are you saying that I am unable to accept ??? you must be an *******.
Thirdly in perpetual denial ?? What did I say to qualify this remark ? You must be a MORON

Summing Up Sabahfan ,Go lick TDM's lap dog arse .

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I share with you all bloggers a write up by a fellow Muslim:

Part 1

A Muslim's View on Lina Joy's Case

Azmi Sharom, Faculty of Law, U.M
Jun 4, 07 3:34pm

This letter is a reaction to the decision of the Federal Court in the Lina Joy case. Taking heed of the prime minister's concerns, I have two unemotional points to make. Firstly the Federal Constitution should
guarantee the rights of all Malaysians to choose their religion.
Secondly, this issue of apostasy in Islam is far more open to interpretation than what the orthodoxy claims.

Article 11 of the Federal Constitution is very clear. Every person has the right to profess and practice his religion. They can propagate it as well if they want unless the state laws say you can't propagate to Muslims.

It is also clear by Schedule 9 of the Constitution that whatever Islamic laws that we have is to be made by the state legislature (with the exception of the three Federal Territories).
These Islamic laws are to be judged by the Syariah courts, whose jurisdiction is only over persons who profess to Islam. The types of Islamic laws that the state legislature can make and that Syariah courts enforce are also listed in Schedule 9. To summaries, they cover issues of family, inheritance and the administration of Islamic institutions and charities. There is no mention at all about apostasy.

Where then does the state legislature get the authority to punish Muslims who declare that they wish to leave the religion? Where does it say in the constitution that you can fine, jail or 'rehabilitate' people who have chosen to believe differently? This 'authority' comes from a line in Schedule 9 that says states can make laws punishing Muslims who act against the 'precepts' of the religion. I must repeat here that apostasy is not expressly mentioned, therefore everything hinges on the question as to what makes up the 'precepts' of Islam.

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da' man is d problem lah...
http://malaysiancartoons.*****...hello.html

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part 2

The constitution is not any mere legal document. It is not like an ordinary contract where you can have express terms and implied terms. It is a guarantee that the government and the law will not take away our fundamental rights as a human being. As such, it is unacceptable that a right as vital as the freedom of religion can be taken away with any thing less than an express clause saying in no uncertain terms that this can be done.

Justice Ahmad Fairuz, in his judgment, made the point that one can't leave one's religion on a whim and religious bodies would naturally want to have procedures to regulate this. This may be true, especially in this country where being Malay by definition means being Muslim and if one were to renounce Islam then legally speaking one can't be Malay.
Therefore all the special Malay privileges won't apply to you any more. In that sense, I can see the logic of having some sort of system to determine whether a person is a Muslim or not.

However, that process, if it must exist, must by necessity be purely administrative and automatic. It can not and must not be punitive. Because once it is punitive as it is in this country, (after all leaving Islam can mean imprisonment) in effect you are denying a person their freedom to choose their religion as enshrined in Article 11.

The opposing argument to mine is that conversion out of Islam clearly goes against the 'precepts' of the religion. Apostasy is a crime that has to be punished. The degree of punishment ranges depending on which Islamic scholar you wish to quote, but the harshest is execution.

This is not a universally accepted view. The Koran, after all, does mention the lack of compulsion in religion. The verse does not come with explanatory notes as to the extent of this statement. There are opinions that say it means no compulsion to join the religion, but once in, there are compulsions aplenty, one of which is that you can't leave.
There are others that say that it means exactly what it says, you can't force religion on anyone and that once this is done religion can have no meaning.
Furthermore, the Koran does not prescribe any worldly punishment for apostasy. Therefore this entire issue is the result of human interpretation of the Koran. It is thus surely open for debate.

Let me provide an example of how changing times and values have affected how Muslims view the verses in our holy book. The Koran is ambivalent about slavery. It does not say that slavery is a sin. Neither does it encourage it. But there are verses that describe what one can do to one's slave. In this day and age, you would be hard pressed to find a Muslim who will say that slavery should be reintroduced. Yet it seems to be allowed in the Koran.

I am not being facetious. I do not believe that Islam, taken as a whole, encourages or even condones slavery. The verses were meant for a particular time in history when such practices did occur. But the point here is that if the values of the 'ummah' can change to the point that practices which is allowed in the divine Koran won't be accepted anymore, why then can't we do the same for what is essentially the mere opinion of human Islamic scholars on the issue of freedom of religion?

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part 3

Often, when the view is put forward that there is no compulsion in Islam and that if a person wants to leave they should be allowed to, there are the usual cries that such attitudes are the result of liberal, Western influenced minds. In all honesty, that is probably a fair 'criticism' of someone like me. However, Abdurrahman Wahid (Gus Dur), the Indonesian cleric and ex-president as well as the mufti of Al Azhar in
Egypt are just two examples of people who also share this view. They can't possibly be described in the same way.

At the end of the day it is simply quite cruel to not allow someone to believe what they want to believe. It is not a decision made lightly and as can be seen in Lina Joy's situation, one that can lead to misery and heartache. Just as I am sure many converts into Islam face misery and heartache from their respective community. It's hard enough to face being ostracized from family and friends without having to face legal
persecution as well. When faced with two contesting human opinions on the 'precepts' of Islam, one which is harsh and one which is merciful, I choose the latter.

Religion is one path towards personal peace and spiritual fulfillment. It is also something which depends entirely on faith. Even if the religion is a 'way of life', a term commonly used to describe Islam; it still needs belief and faith. How can one be forced to follow a 'way of life' if one simply does not believe in it? Once the element of force comes into the picture, be it in the form of fines, imprisonment or 'rehabilitation', then religion ceases to be about the spiritual and becomes instead a matter of power. I can not accept that the religion I was born into and my children are raised in is about anything as crass as power.

And it is my right to believe that.

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Thambidoorai, although I am Agnostic which is similar to an Atheist, I do not agree with your reasoning. The cases of body snatching in Malaysia are still ongoing so it is not true "converts truly and fully grasp the implications of becoming muslims". The most recent case was when they declared an indian man Muslim after they recovered his body and found a note claiming his intention to embrace Islam. Even though the note was unsigned nor bore any markings from the deceased. The family was shocked and insisted that the person was Hindu and had never mentioned wanting to be Muslim nor practiced the religion when he was alive. If you go to the Syariah detention camps, you will find many similar cases of people living with the same predicament.

Furthermore, for those born Muslim the choice of embracing the religion was never theirs to make in the first place. Many people born into Christianity, Hinduism and all other religions have, at some point in their lives made a personal decision not to continue with their religion because they had lost a spiritual connection. To be spiritually repressed is a terrible thing for the soul so personal choice is paramount if the person was to find understanding and peace in their own lives.

Even for converts who enter late into a religion, it is always possible that they too can lose a spiritual connection with their chosen religion. People make mistakes. Even in marriages you will find divorces because at some point in these people’s lives, the situation they had put themselves in, no longer makes sense to their lives. More than this, their past decision may indeed bring them suffering.

Coming from my point of view, the problem with going to the Syariah Courts to appeal to be converted out of Islam is that it will never happen. In Islam apostasy is taught to be one of the most serious sins in the religion and because Islam takes the view that the community is responsible for the individual, they will never allow a muslim to leave Islam.

This is where the only hope for Muslims who want change is to change the legal structure in Malaysia and the Federal Courts must be willing to take this lead. It seems unlikely for this to happen and it is very sad. I believe repression is one of the most damaging force on an individual and to take spiritual freedom away verges on cruelty. I don't believe it is a problem with Islam but it is a problem created by the lawmakers in this country.

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pointless to comment about those who potrayed itself as always and the only truth.. TRUTH IS IN THE EYES OF THE BEHOLDERS.. so goes to poor Lina Joy and others

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Beware Muslims, had they won the Lina Joy case, Islam will cease to exists as we know it

Conclusions drawn from reading this piece of garbage;

1. We must force Muslims to pray. If it is not done by force, Islam will not exists.
2. We must force Muslims to fast. If it is not done by force, Islam will not exists.
3. We must force Muslims to believe. If it is not done by force, Islam will not exists.

Conclusion: Islam is all about forcing people. If forcing cease to exists, Islam also cease to exists.

Raja Petra said; '..for the west, Islam is the new communism!..'

Mr Rahman is the walking proof.

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I thought there are only 5 pillars of Islam

1. Faith or belief in the Oneness of God and the finality of the prophethood of Muhammad;
2. Establishment of the daily prayers;
3. Concern for and almsgiving to the needy;
4. Self-purification through fasting; and
5. The pilgrimage to Makkah for those who are able.

Following Mr Rahman's logic, there should be 6 instead of 5.

6. All of the above should be forced upon. If it is not forced upon, all the above ceased to exists.

This is call Islam Rahmani al-Celcomni

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There are many good Moslem in this world. Unfortunetly, most of them are really untouchable. Proud to be called Moslem but live in unpeacefully life. Well, this is not my point, my point is UMNO 'religion' the cruel and inhuman 'religion' that I have ever known. UMNO destroying everything in Malaysia life's structures. Put in the list; religions, freedom, education, harmony among ehtnic groups was screwed up by UMNO. To make it worst, UMNO claim that they are protector of Islam.

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Let me tell you all one thing :-

Those who draft out the Article 160 saying "malay must be muslim..." are just retard . "because of in-breeding Malays become stupid" this is very word written by our very own TUN DR M !!!

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Let me tell you all one thing :-

Those who draft out the Article 160 saying "malay must be muslim..." are just retard . These people are just plain stupid. "because of in-breeding Malays become stupid" this is very word written by our very own TUN DR M !!! There would be no Lina Joy case if we do not have article 160.

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To all non-Muslims parents,
I have this advice to you that you must indoctrinate your children from the time they learn to speak.

Never get themselves entangled with Islam in this country.
It is an unfair and dangerous faith as practised here.

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I wonder what is the punishment from Allah SWT for those who breed fear and hate of Islam.
To Cabearth Taishin and the like:
If you can't say anything good and about how endearing Islam is just don't say anything at all.

To others here: Let us move out of this blog. It is not worth arguing with myopics.

DIVINE BE

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After all RPK has written so many points regarding Islam, still this apanama chep does not get to understand the real meaning of Islam. Survey yourself, except Islam, is they any other religion in this world enforce such? Do you feel that the Christians, Hindus, Toaist cease to exist???????

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Super Admin

I think your decision to allow this article to be published in Malaysia Today was a mistake. The writer himself admits that it was disallowed in Brunei Times. It is written by a person with very shallow faith. Instead of inviting intelligent comments, discussion and information,it has bred more ill feelings.

Why do we need to defend and fight for our religion? Isn't God the Almighty strong enough to do that? If your faith and trust in God is strong and secure, you don't have to fight, struggle and defend your religion. It is us humans who are weaklings that need defending, and God the Almighty would do that.

So, please leave out thse rhetorics about 'struggling, fighting and defending the faith'. Just learn and strengthen your faith

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Cabearth, why do I need to read the judgment from Line what a Malay is when I can read the constitution? Secondary source superior to the primary source?

Anyway, I am not contesting the authenticity of the judgment. I am questioning the reasoning used which set a dangerous precedence of shifting deference from the civil courts to the Syariah courts.

Syariah courts only apply to Muslims, no question about it. But so far the Syariah court also appear to be able to control what a person could legally believe. Wow. Why do you even need any court declaration to say you are no longer a Muslim? If a person don't believe then let them be. The most any religious body should get involved is to issue declaration of apostasy, no need any court application. No need religious rehab.

On your assertion that Lina Joy has no case, are you blind? She has been practising Christianity for more than 10 years. She did not voluntarily join Islam. She has made legal attempts to change her religious status. She has avoided further Islamic teachings for many many years. The religious body also fail to get her into further religious education. She has a much stronger case than the nullification of the Penang woman, Siti. Would be interesting to see her making a fresh application to the Syariah courts.

But that's not the real reason, is it? The real reason for her not to go to the Syariah court is a real danger to her life. She received death threats. Heck, her lawyer also received death threats. Guarantee her safety, welcome her decision to choose what she wants and then let the learned Syariah judges sort it out if you really need any judgment. To me there is no real need for any court case. Just make it a procedure, she wants out, let her out.



Conversion to any religion is a serious matter. I would be upset too if others can treat faith according to their fancy but I would never even think of preventing anyone from changing religions. My idea (may not be original) for dealing with apostasy is for the religious body to treat it in a welcoming, non-ostracising and non-judgemental manner. Open your doors to anyone who have intentions to apostate. Tell them you offer voluntary attendance counselling on their application and even allow a fixed grace period for them to change their minds to remain. Place no pressure and facilitate counselling with their family members if needed. Place no compulsion. Once the grace period is over, facilitate their application. After that offer an open door policy if they want to discuss any further issues relating with faith (such as forums, contact persons, access to publications, etc.) preferably with Islamic intellectuals whose role is not to convince them to revert back to Islam but rather facilitate further understanding of faith matters.

Why this soft approach idea? It's not to encourage apostasy, but rather care for the well being of the applicant. Regardless of faith, the religious body must place the immediate well being of the applicant at the top. With this approach you encourage openness and thus root out secret apostates. Get them to come to you and you may convince some to return to the faith and further strengthening their faith. If they still insist on converting out, then nothing you can do about it. After all, death penalty or whatever punishment, nothing can stop a person believing in what they want. You just create martyrs with religious persecution. This is just an idea as I believe in persuasion rather than punishment would strengthen the faith. This would also abide with religious freedom as enshrined in the constitution.



What are the author of the article and many Muslims afraid of if Lina Joy is allowed to leave Islam? The article has nonsensical reasons why she should not be allowed to apostate (see Tsunami08's comment above). Islam will not fall because some choose to leave it, unless it is weak to begin with.

Muslims should be confident of their faith and stand tall facing all critiques and challenges with grace. Don't tell critics to shut up, let them speak. Don't say those who don't understand have no right to criticise, explain so that they have a better idea. Drop the siege mentality, there is no Islam vs the rest of the world. The worst enemies of Islam are Muslims themselves. Why? Only Muslims can corrupt the faith of their brothers and sisters, the non-Muslims whatever they do won't cause any major dents in Islam.

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Hi All,

I think it is useless to argue/discuss in such impolite manner. Religion is a matter of faith and way of life to many, which should lead us to have high integrity in manner, rightness and all the goodness related to the heart and behavior. So to muslim sisters and brothers just as Tambunan Boy wrote "
Do not fear of anything if your IMAN and TAQWA is strong.......why worry have you no faith my muslim brothers? "

To to those whose support Lina Joy, be reminded about those muslim girls in France who were not allowed to wear hijab at school....and the teacher is the UK who was expeled from work when she covered her face........ aren't they all victim of consequence of being minority going against the mainstream.

I agree with Thambidoorai, those who want to change the system must work hard from within. And Article 160 saying "malay must be muslim..." should be changed because again religion is a matter of Faith & way of life and not race. The Arab are not all Muslim after all..... how could M'sian Malay must be Muslim.....???

Also as RPK said.......there are Muslim by practice....and there are Muslim as a believer.... as so as other religion. And there are, who are both believer and practioner. I hope Lina Joy and family will find peace to respect each other choice, and keep in the heart believing that it is God who lead us to the right path......and it is His perogative to choose who goes to heaven.

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written by inspiron, June 26, 2008 | 23:45:12

written by cabearth, June 26, 2008 | 19:53:21

written by Chaptokam, June 26, 2008 | 18:41:38
Hey you !
For a start maybe you should go to Iraq and tell the Sunni Muslims there and the Shites there to stop killing and blowing each other up .
Only people like you with no strong faith resort to writing and instigating other people to protest and making all sorts of demands . Sick of people like you .


Well, before the Occupation of Airaq, there was no Sunni-Syiah tension. They were living side by side as neighbors and they've done so for the last 700 years. There wasn't even a trace of sectarian tension.

BUT, after the occupation, we see tension rising out of no where.

So, maybe u need to ask the Americans that. It's mostly their fault.



cabearth, pls get your facts right. Read the facts below:


The Shia suffered indirect and direct persecution under post-colonial Iraqi governments since 1932, especially that of Saddam Hussein. Under Saddam public Shia festivals such as Ashoura were banned. It is said that every Shia clerical family of note in Iraq had tales of torture and murder to recount.[46] In 1969 the son of Iraq's highest Shia Ayatollah Muhsin al-Hakim was arrested and allegedly tortured. From 1979-1983 Saddam's regime executed 48 major Shia clerics in Iraq.[47] They included Shia leader Mohammad Baqir al-Sadr and his sister. Tens of thousands of Iranians and Arabs of Iranian origin were expelled in 1979 and 1980 and a further 75,000 in 1989.[48] Shia opposition to the government following the first Gulf War was reportedly suppressed.

Dear inspiron ,
We are talkin to self proclaim walking Islamic enclycopedia who thinks he knows all but actually he's learnings are all wrapped due to too much indulgence in these wrapped ideology and learning . For me here we called it chou huei literally meaning have gone NUTS .

Well he wrote ;
Well, before the Occupation of Airaq, there was no Sunni-Syiah tension.
Is that so ?? Can you cabearth then explain to me why Saddam Hussein used chemical and biological weapons on the Iranians during the Iraq / Iranian war ??
There wasn't even a trace of sectarian tension. cabearth you are out of your mind .Saddam Hussein being a sunni muslim ruled Iraq with an iron fist and would not tolerate any infighting within Iraq and Shites were prosecuted during his reign .

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Man made - Cars, Bikes, Houses, Books, etc., etc.

GOD inspired, girlfriend inspired, boyfriend inspired... books, music, art... God didn't write the Quran, Bible, Harry Potter books.

And sometimes, the Devil made me(them)do it.

Cheerio...

Oh, btw, God made the Parrots, but if a Parrot barks like a dog... is it a Dog? If I'm born non-Malay, by being a Muslim, practice Malay custom & berbahasa, do I become a Malay (Article 160)?

Think Carefully ALL citizen of Malaysia...

So, even 'new' immigrants can become Malay...

RELIGION is USED to define ETHNICITY!!!!

Malaysians generally don't realize this MISTAKE!!! Should NOT, CANNOT be mixed!

RPK, please make RIGHT this mistake!!!

So, Malaysian politics is fundamentally wrong with it's wrong terms and definition being mixed together. Done on purpose? By TDM? Perpetuated by the politicians who cannot be that dumb! Oh, I humbly cannot be the ONLY Malaysian to have realized this!

Reflect on this:

In Malaysia, a Parrot that barks like a dog is a Dog. It has all the legal rights of a TRUE Dog. If it dies, it will be buried as a dog.
If the Dog-Parrot stops barking like a dog, the dog community decides whether it should be a Dog still. ONLY IN MALAYSIA! LONG LIVE MALAYSIA-BOLEH!

I'm not a racist. Just an observation. Shalom.

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Oh, My god (or can I say, Oh, my Allah) Both the Quran and constitutions are writen by humans. Right? Both are writen base on culture, condition and others during the time frame. Please change them according to time.......and move forward.

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"Forcing" a person to remain muslim clearly shows there's something wrong with malaysia.

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Malay must be Muslim? I though that most Malays are in Sumatran Provinces of Riau, Jambi, Palembang and the Minangkabau of West Sumatra.Mamak considered Malay if they disawow their ancestry? Who is a Malay? I know of Malays in Sumatra not being Muslim. Are not the Malays mainly from present day Indonesia some as far away as Makarsar. Are the Malays here differnt from their Indonesian cousins? Very interesting.

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Frankly I think it is just a storm in a tea cup. Faith is a personal matter. It is not for someone to tell me whether I have to continue to be a Muslim, Christian, Hindu or Buddhist etc. If I fee that I no more like to be a Christian I just stop going to church, stop reading the bibble etc and who the heck knows or can force me to? If I decided that I no more am a Muslim, I just stop going to the mosque, read the Koran and start eating pork. Who will watch over me 24 hours a day? Dont they have better things to do? If I cannot marry legally I just live common law with my spouse and will father as many children as I like. The problem is that communion with God had been politicized. Religious leaders do not practise the essence of faith - such as love, charity, kindness etc. They just use religion to exercise power over others. My advice this religious zealots is to practise the essence of religions not to practise the form only, and also, be confident enough not to force people to remain in your religion or convert to your religion, but to use examples to convince people of the greatness of your respective religion. People should be converted to any religion out of love and believe in it and not by force. Only then you can have true believers. Otherwise they are just pretenders. Do you want all this people to belong to your faith just inorder to swell the numbers?

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Obviously our Constitution is in conflict with our inalienable human rights of choice of religion and the right to change it. But the majority of M'sian Malays have accepted the situation where their race is equated with their religion. So, it is really up to them whether they want a change or not.

However, there is a system, the Syariah Law, that Lina Joy can appeal to, to change her religion. So, let her first follow that law and that system to renounce her Islam and change to a new religion.

If she does not get justice, then we'll see what the next step ought to be. Therefore, the judges are not wrong in their ruling that Lina Joy should exhaust her legal avenues first before asking them to re-look at our Constitution.

I, a non-Muslim, am not happy with the conflict in our Constitution. But, we are only 50 years old as a new Nation. Others who have had written Constitution and Bill of Rights etc for over 200 years are still daily figting various human rights issues in the Supreme Courts.

So, Malaysians. Have patience, and the rewards will surely come, as we mature together.

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In 1974, "The Handbook of Psychiatry" defined grief as "...the normal response to the loss of a loved one by death," and response to other kinds of losses were labelled "Pathological Depressive Reactions." This has become the predominant way for counsellors and professionals to approach grief, loss, tragedy and traumatic experiences.[1] Kubler-Ross also viewed the various stages as equally valid coping mechanisms, allowing an individual to work through their disease process or loss over time.

Grief of a near relative is one of the most painful natural traumatic, emotion that a human would experience in their lifetime. Normal human cannot escape from it and must one let it runs it's course to recover.

It is for this reason, that the consideration to allow family members to recover through the painful grief cycle must prevail over any other human requirements.

In this case of the slightest doubts, the religious authorities should, in the benefit of doubt, relent for humane considerations to alleviate the painful sufferings of grief that befell upon the close family.

By snatching away the body from the loved ones, to the person in grief, is like pouring acid into the wounds of a person with 5th degree burns to increase the pain.

Releative to religion, such an act is beyond humanity, I don't think we can find any words in the dictionary to describe such inhuman acts. It is @#*#@#$@$#@!

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oops posted in wrong thread..

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WHY WASTE SO MUCH ENERGY TO WRITE SO MANY THINGS??? THERES ONLY ONE WORD FOR ALL THIS "BULLSHIT"

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If Muslims leaving Islam should be killed, then, Non-Muslims leaving their religions into Islam should not be allowed and be killed as well??? How about that? Eye for an eye!!!!

No, as a Hindu, we never talk about killing, not even animals for food, thus we have a concept called vegetarianism!!!!

Love and peace to all!!

Dont do to others what you dont want to be done to you!

If Muslims dont want to lose the kinds of Lina Joy, then dont make laws that forces the others to convert and embrace Islam unwillingly!!!!

Peace

Mathave

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"Article 160 of the Constitution states that a Malay must be a Muslim; thus, if a Malay person declares himself a non-Muslim, the race he would be legally is
defined as "INVALID"...enter a new command,Press F4 to SAVE.

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Fairminded, It's more complicated than that. Nobody can watch over Lina Joy for 24/7 but when she decides to go on holiday and share the same hotel room in Msia with her boyfriend, she runs the risk of having religious enforcers knocking on the door. If she decides to eat in a non-halal eatery or do not fast during Ramadhan, she runs the risk of encounter with the religious body. If she have children, the all have to be regarded as Muslims. When the children go to public school, agama classes are compulsory for them. When the agama teacher finds out about their parents, be prepared for more religious enforcers. The children may also be taken away from the parents on grounds of faith incompatibility.

This is why it's not just about nobody can watch over her 24/7. Why must she live like a criminal in hiding?

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bukan taboo lah Datuk...hang silap!

sila bezakan PANTANG dengan PENAKUT...

Datuk et. al are taboo-nistic people. RPK is not a penakut man...period!

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"written by amjoem, June 26, 2008 | 23:28:01
The following is a copy of an article from one of the blogs, which copy I had saved.

Does Islam allow apostasy?
AB Sulaiman
Jul 21 2007, 04 4:16pm
I had made the observation that (Malay) Muslim apostates lived in a state of suspended animation, with Islam saying on one hand they are free to change their religion on their own volition, but on the other, the Syariah law stating they may lose their lives should they do so.
The operating principle seems to be - ‘Islam stands for the freedom of religion but if its own adherents choose to leave it, they will be punished, or even be put to death.’
I sense an inherent contradiction here.
This contradiction being pretty obvious, I had to seek clarification on Islam’s ruling on apostasy - does this great religion allow apostasy, or does it not? Within the parameters of human reasoning and logic only one rule can prevail, not both at the same time.
I had offered a possible interpretation - that Islam does allow for apostasy, but its very dogmatic adherents and sentinels have narrowly interpreted its teachings by imposing rigid conditions. ..."
----------------

Cabearth/tulang besi,

Since you have rebutted almost each and every post here, I'd love to get your rebuttal on the above, esp to the fact "that Islam does allow for apostasy, but its very dogmatic adherents and sentinels have narrowly interpreted its teachings by imposing rigid conditions".

I may be a kafir, but I am starting to think that every religion teaches good. And I might be attracted to Islam ...had it not been for the likes of you. You know what makes me fear Islam? It is people like you ...the "very dogmatic adherents and sentinels" who "narrowly interpreted its teachings". A religion that keeps relying on and referring back the man-made Article 160 and the syariah court SCARES THE HELL OUT OF ME! So, no thank you, you can have your religion all to yourself and keep it to yourself. I don't think I want to be part of a religion that uses Article 160, the syariah court and the police to FORCE adherents to stay faithful. A true religion should only rely on the faith and belief of its followers, and allows ppl their basic rights, eg., freedom of choice. All religion allow their adherents the freedom to change religion EXCEPT Islam, no? According to your syariah law, you'd be killed if you change religion. It is so sad that Lina Joy, through no choice of hers, is born to muslim parents. Yeah...such a tragic accident for her to be born to muslim parents in Malaysia...

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CHEAPTOAKAM SAID

Sabahfan,

Can you write proper English and can you understand proper English !!!
I dont understand what you are implying , Me cheapbullh you must be a NUT .
Secondly what truth are you saying that I am unable to accept ??? you must be an *******.
Thirdly in perpetual denial ?? What did I say to qualify this remark ? You must be a MORON

Summing Up Sabahfan ,Go lick TDM's lap dog arse .
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HEY EL CHEAPO.... if i have to lick tdms lapdog arse, THEN U MUST BE LICKER OF BODOWI, C4, NAZRI and all the stupid umno shit leaders... ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

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In Msia, a major religion has been hijacked by the politicians! Don't people realise it? Interpretation of that religion was left to a certain group of people who dictated to the masses, every aspect of their lives.

Religion is all about being controlled mindlessly, being told what you shld believe without question, abt having blind faith. I think only those who are of very strong character & possess extraordinary & independent minds can do without religion & know the right questions to ask as well!!!

Am not afraid of my non-belief in that so-called Almighty or the threats of hell because both do not exist. It is illogical that something so intangible such as a belief be allowed to be controlled by other people proclaimed "holy men".. Can't people set their minds free & believe what they truly understand rather than being told they must believe anyway?

People need not be persuaded or threatened with death to have belief in the sun which comes up every morning. You know for sure, for a fact, the sun will rise tomorrow. You can see it. That's the big difference!!!

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Cabearth, I think Lina Joy's mum and all mums of the world must learn to let go.
Yes, we can guide our children while they are growing up in the faith of our choice but when the birds leave the nest, it is their RIGHT to chose for themselves everything, from their friends, who to marry, how to lead their lives and also religion. We can hope and pray that they will be guided by the values we imparted throughout their lives, but eventually we have to respect them and their choices. Otherwise, we lose them.

We must learn to let go and trust their judgement. Islam is the ONLY religion in this country which prohibits this choice where religion is concerned. As mentioned by someone else, a person born into the religion may not have the same conviction as his parents and surely he has the right to follow his heart, otherwise he is a hypocrite and not a good example of the faith. We, non Muslims at least have this freedom to chose. I feel sorry for those who can't.

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It's all boiled down to those who put up the article 160 . Let us change the present federal govt. Let the PR govt change or abolish the article 160. Stop the argument once and for all. Everybody happy !!!!!!!!!!!!

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written by Sabahfan, June 27, 2008 | 21:22:46
CHEAPTOAKAM SAID

Sabahfan,

Can you write proper English and can you understand proper English !!!
I dont understand what you are implying , Me cheapbullh you must be a NUT .
Secondly what truth are you saying that I am unable to accept ??? you must be an *******.
Thirdly in perpetual denial ?? What did I say to qualify this remark ? You must be a MORON

Summing Up Sabahfan ,Go lick TDM's lap dog arse .
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HEY EL CHEAPO.... if i have to lick tdms lapdog arse, THEN U MUST BE LICKER OF BODOWI, C4, NAZRI and all the stupid umno shit leaders... ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

To SABAHSTINKS

Well I ain't one But I am very sure you are one hell of a licker of Asses .
Arses Stinks but to you they smell like C4 Perfumes

HAHAHA he he he he ............

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The untold story of Muslims worldwide converting to evangelical Christianity
http://joelrosenberg.********.com/
________________________________________
"I will build my church," Jesus said, "and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:1

The lead story on Drudge this past weekend was the Pope baptizing a prominent Egyptian author who converted from Islam to Catholicism. It's a huge story in Italy and the Muslim world, especially coming as it did the week that Osama bin Laden accused the Pope of waging a "crusade" against Islam. But this particular baptism is just the tip of the iceberg.

Despite unprecedented press coverage of Afghanistan, Iraq, and the Middle East since September 11, 2001, one big story is generally not being told by the mainstream media. Hundreds of thousands of Muslims are converting to evangelical Christianity and will be celebrating their first Easter this year, even amidst widespread persecution and the very real threat of death.

I first began reporting this story in 2005 after interviewing some three dozen Arab and Iranian pastors and evangelical Christian leaders in the U.S. and the Middle East. Over the last three years, however, I have had the privilege of traveling to Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, the West Bank, Turkey, and Morocco. What's more, I have had the honor of meeting with and interviewing more than 200 Arab, Iranian, Kurdish, Sudanese and other pastors and Christian leaders. With more data, the trend lines are becoming even more clear and the story is even more exciting.

The God of the Bible is moving powerfully in the Middle East to draw men, women and children to His heart and adopt them into His family in record numbers. More Muslims have come to faith in Jesus Christ over the last thirty years -- and specifically over the last seven to ten years -- than at any other time in human history. There is a revival going on among the ancient Catholic, Coptic, and Chaldean churches. Today, the Church is being truly resurrected in the lands of its birth.

Consider the latest evidence:

* AFGHANISTAN -- In Afghanistan, for example, there were only 17 known evangelical Christians in the country before al-Qaeda attacked the United States. Today, there are well over 10,000 Afghan followers of Christ and the number is growing steadily. Church leaders say Afghan Muslims are open to hearing the gospel message like never before. Dozens of baptisms occur every week. People are snatching up Bibles and other Christian books as fast as they can be printed or brought into the country. The Jesus film, a two hour docudrama on the life of Christ based on the Gospel of Luke, was even shown on television in one city before police shut down the entire TV station."God is moving so fast in Afghanistan, we're just trying to keep up," one Afghan Christian worker told me, requesting anonymity. "The greatest need now is leadership development. We need to train pastors to care for all these new believers."

* UZBEKISTAN -- There were no known Muslim converts to Christ there in 1990. Now there

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are more than 30,000.

* IRAQ -- As I shared on Fox & Friends on Easter morning, in Iraq, there were only a handful of Muslim converts to Christianity back in 1979 when Saddam Hussein took full control of that country. Yet today, there are more than 70,000 Iraqi Muslim background believers in Jesus (MBBs), approximately 50,000 who came to Christ as refugees in Jordan after the first Gulf War in 1990-91, and another 20,000 who have come to Christ since the fall of Saddam Hussein. John Moser, the executive director of The Joshua Fund, and I just returned from nine days traveling through five provinces in Iraq. We met with 19 Iraqi evangelical Christian leaders. I had the privilege of preaching in a church of more than 100 MBBs from Baghdad -- a church that didn't even exist in 2002 before liberation. We also had the privilege of meeting and interviewing numerous former Islamic jihadist terrorist who have come to Christ and are now pastors and church planters.

* KAZAKHSTAN -- In Kazakhstan, there were only three known evangelical Christian believers before the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. Today there are more than 15,000 Kazakh Christians, and more than 100,000 Christians of all ethnicities.

* EGYPT -- More than 1 million Egyptians have trusted Christ over the past decade or so, report Egyptian church leaders. The Egyptian Bible Society told me they used to sell about 3,000 copies of the Jesus film a year in the early 1990s. But in 2005 they sold 600,000 copies, plus 750,000 copies of the Bible on tape (in Arabic) and about a half million copies of the Arabic New Testament. "Egyptians are increasingly hungry for God's Word," an Egyptian Christian leader told me. Last Christmas, I had the privilege of visiting the largest Christian congregation in the Middle East, which meets in an enormous cave on the outskirts of Cairo. Some 10,000 believers worship there every weekend. A prayer conference the church held in May 2005 drew some 20,000 believers.

* IRAN -- In 1979 when the Ayatollah Khomeini led the Islamic Revolution, there were only about 500 known Muslim converts to Christianity. Today, interviews with two dozen Iranian pastors and church leaders reveals that there are well over 1 million Shia Muslim converts to Christianity.

* SUDAN -- Despite a ferocious civil war, genocide and widespread religious persecution, particularly in the Darfur region -- or perhaps because of such tragedies -- church leaders there tell me that more than 1 million Sudanese have made decisions to follow Jesus Christ just since 2001. Since the early 1990s, more than 5 million Sudanese have become followers of Jesus. Seminary classes to train desperately-needed new pastors are held mountain caves. Hundreds of churches have been planted, and thousands of small group Bible studies are being held in secret throughout the country.

In December 2001, Sheikh Ahmad al Qataani, a leading Saudi cleric, appeared on a live interview on Aljazeera satellite television to confirm that, sure enough, Muslims were turning to Jesus in alarming numbers. "In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity," Al Qataani warned. "Every day, 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Every year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity." Stunned, the interviewer interrupted the cleric. "Hold on! Let me clarify. Do we have six million converting from Islam to Christianity?" Al Qataani repeated his assertion. "Every year," the cleric confirmed, adding, "a tragedy has happened."

One of the most dramatic developments is that many Muslims throughout the Middle East and even in the United States are seeing dreams and visions of Jesus. They are coming into churches explaining that they have already converted and now need a Bible and guidance

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on how to follow Jesus. This is in fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. The Hebrew Prophet Joel told us that "in the last days, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days....And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved." (Joel 2:28-32)


Is life easy for these Muslim converts? By no means. They face ostracism from their families. They face persecution from their communities. They face being fired by their employers. They face imprisonment by their governments. They face torture and even death at the hands of Muslim extremists. But they are coming to Christ anyway. They are becoming convinced that Jesus is, in fact, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that no one comes to the Father in heaven except through faith in Jesus' death on the cross and powerful resurrection from the dead.

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Siti Fatimah Tan is a showcase when the government via Syariah Court was defending itself. Why? Becoz it have 0% of case where a convert can leave Islam. So, it was put on the backburner and paraded to show that Syariah judges can be compasionate. Ironically, her case was delayed so long that it lost any impact. Dun quote us this case cause it is just for tunjuk. Allow other 'apostates' to convert and then it is quotable.

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HELLO IDIOT! If we love you religion, want to defend your religion, its good.
But you & your people should not disturb other religion.
You uncivilised Malei or whatever, dont murtadkan HINDU, Cina
Taliban tetap Taliban

Rajen Bumiputra
Rakyat Sultan Azlan Shah
Hidup Melayu, Cina, India, Iban, Kadazan, Orang Asli
Hidup Islam, Kristian, Hindu, Budha

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Open your eyes Malaysian & Muslims! Politician &reachers can be self serving instead of serving the people.

Muslims are taught that their religion is one of Peace... but a historical fact remains...it is based on a leader and founder that goes to WAR !!!

No other religious founder does this...
None kill their enemies...

Please DO NOT DEFEND THIS RELIGION ANYMORE!!! People of the world are not as blind as you...

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Preachers...

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Oil corporation’s profits and crony capitalism provoke mass protest
People protested in Kuala Lumpur to voice their resentment over the big fuel price increases put through by the government of Abdullah Badawi. Petrol, diesel have all gone up by nearly 41%.
read more at: http://malaysianindian1.blogsp...crony.html

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Even God allows freedome of religion. What is the point forcing someone to be msulim when he or she is not a muslim? Why should a non muslim be forced to carry a muslim ID? Isn't that cheating? Once a person leaves Islam he or she should not carry a Muslim ID!

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The constitution is supreme and allows for freedom of worship. As a Christian, Lina Joy believes in the divinity of Jesus and regards Muhammed as a false prophet.

Any logical and honest person would consider it the height of stupidity to consider Lina a Muslim. But this is exactly the problem of many Muslims; they are either stupid or have no regard for the truth. Faith is not important to them just the label 'Muslim'. If truth and logic does not characterise Islam, then one can only conclude it is inspired by Syaitan.

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What's clear, to date, there is not a single evidence that ISlam is the cause of Muslim's backwardness.

In fact, on the contrary, Islam has kept Muslims respectable and Shariah has kept Muslims decent and good.

Secularism has destoryed and subjugated Muslims all over the world.

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that Islam does allow for apostasy, but its very dogmatic adherents and sentinels have narrowly interpreted its teachings by imposing rigid conditions".

THat means, that includes the entire Sahabah Generation, Tabiin, Tabit Tabiin and just about ALL THE SCHOLARS in Islam including all the Sheikhul Azhar that has ever lived.

I wonder where this AB SUlaiman gets his information from about Islam? Maybe he studied some other religion and thought it's Islam.

Hahahaahahahaa U liberals make me laugh.

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