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It takes two hands to clap PDF Print
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Wednesday, 25 June 2008 13:43

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The Muslims can regard the non-Muslims as brothers and sisters fighting for a common cause -- a better Malaysia for the future generations -- or they can continue shouting that non-Muslims should never be taken as friends.

NO HOLDS BARRED

Raja Petra Kamarudin

A couple of years ago I wrote about how Islam spreads hate. I do not mean, of course, Islam the religion. I am talking about the Islam practiced by the majority of the Muslims. Understandably, this article of mine met with negative responses from most Muslims -- and silence from the non-Muslims who knew better than to engage in what might be viewed as anti-Islamic rhetoric.

Let us imagine this scenario. A Muslim walks past a church or temple and he or she hears the blaring PA system and the priest inside screaming that Islam is a fake religion, that Prophet Muhammad had been deceived by Satan into believing that God is sending down a new religion from heaven, that the Quran is man-made and not from God and a creation of deviants years after Muhammad had died, that Muslims are mistakenly following the religion of the devil, that Muhammad in fact never existed, that Islam is part-Hindu and part-Zoroastrian and that all the rituals and beliefs are borrowed from these two religions, and so on and so forth.

Yes, I know what the critics say about Islam and the above is but some of what they say. But let us say that a Muslim walks past a church or temple and this is what he or she hears. Can you imagine the backlash? Would Muslims remain quiet and tolerate what they would view as insulting and slanderous to Islam? Certainly not and be prepared for blood on the streets, the result of the most brutal retaliation you can ever imagine.

But no, no church or temple would dare do such a thing. No priest would dare declare the Muslims as enemies who must be exterminated. No priest would even consider asking his congregation to declare war on Islam and Muslims. It is just not on. And the people of the other faiths just can’t understand why this same thing is not taboo to the Muslims.

We talk about multi-culturalism. We talk about racial harmony. We talk about inter-faith tolerance. But that’s all we do. We talk. We do not demonstrate that we really mean what we say. We do not walk the talk. Instead, Muslims would not hesitate to declare that those not of the Muslim faith can never be taken as friends of the Muslims. If they are not friends then what are they? The opposite of friend is enemy. Sure, we do not quite say that they should be regarded as the enemy. This is a crime under Malaysia’s Sedition Act. We just say that they should not be taken as friends. This is not seditious.

Then we talk about wanting a new opposition coalition called Pakatan Rakyat. We talk about seeing a strong opposition finally emerging in Malaysia. We talk about our dream of a two-party system in Malaysia. We aspire for check and balances in the way this country is run. And we know that this can only be achieved if and when all the races in Malaysia unite. So we call for all the races to unite. But we look down on the other races and declare that non-Muslims can’t be taken as friends.

Muslims are beginning to look like hypocrites. To the non-Muslims we say, “Let us unite for a better Malaysia.” Amongst fellow Muslims we say. “The non-Muslims can’t be taken as friends.” We think that the non-Muslims do not know this. The truth is, the non-Muslims do know but they are hoping that in time the first statement will override the second statement and that Malaysia will eventually become a true multi-racial country.

8 March 2008 was just the beginning of the wide chasm between Muslims and non-Muslims becoming closer. It is closer. But it is not closed. And the ‘closeness’ is only temporary. It is only for the next four or five years until the next general election. It can get closer still and eventually the chasm is removed totally or it can revert to what it used to be before 8 March 2008.

The choice is not really with the non-Muslims. They are the minority and minorities do not have too many choices. The choice is with the Muslims. The Muslims can regard the non-Muslims as brothers and sisters fighting for a common cause -- a better Malaysia for the future generations -- or they can continue shouting that non-Muslims should never be taken as friends. And the choice the Muslims make will determine the outcome of the 13th General Election, whenever that is going to be held.

This is our last chance. We can either move forward in the spirit of a New Malaysia and with all Malaysians united. Or we can revert to what it used to be -- a Malaysia divided by race and religion. No, the non-Muslims would never say nasty things about Islam, the Quran, Prophet Muhammad or the Muslims. They know it is suicidal to do so, as time and time again that has been proven. It is time that the Muslims too mature and look at the reality of the world today. It takes two hands to clap. And unless the Muslims too raise their hands there will be no clap. That is the long and short of the whole thing.

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The sermons of hate from my childhood have been silenced

Dr Khalid Salem Al-Yabhouni

One of my earliest memories from boyhood is being taken to the mosque by my father to attend Friday prayers and hear the sermon. Friday, to the Islamic faith, is of great importance for it's symbolic significance - the first mosque was built on Friday - and for the Quranic injunction that instructs Muslims to attend the mosque and heed their prayers:

"O ye who believe! When the call is proclaimed to prayer on Friday (the Day of Assembly), hasten earnestly to the Remembrance of Allah, and leave off business (and traffic): That is best for you if ye but knew," - Holy Quran 62:9

The Friday sermons, so I was taught in my Islamic studies classes at school, should be a kind of forum where an informed Muslim can enlighten the people from the pulpit about the concerns of life and the afterlife. The issues that the sermons address could be religious, political, social, economic or personal if need be. And they should follow the Prophet's example and last from 15 to 20 minutes.

That's what we were taught at school, certainly. But what I remember from attending those mosque sermons with my father was very different. The sermons we used to listen to then almost always dealt with political issues, and only very rarely with others matters such as religious rites, or moral issues. I suppose it is true that all the political sermons we heard led children like myself to begin thinking about political affairs early on in life - which in itself is no bad thing. No, the problem was not the subject matter but the tone that the imams invariably used: they were always angry.

The usual style of delivery would be for the imam to begin quietly and then progress, getting louder and louder until he was screaming into the microphone. The blaring voice of the imam would shake not just the foundations of the mosque but the foundations of all the listeners, too. At the very top of his voice, he would invariably threaten fire and brimstone, impending punishment and distant reward for all the worshippers. Finally, his voice hoarse from the shouting, the imam would conclude by cursing the enemies of Islam - as defined by his own personal criteria. It was impossible for anyone, young or old, not to be deeply affected by such a performance.

For the first 20 or so years of my life, sermons of this type were my weekly religious staple, until I left Abu Dhabi to study abroad. My first stop was Kalamazoo, a small town in the state of Michigan in the United States, where I went to study at Western Michigan University. My subjects were comparative politics and comparative religions - which gave me the opportunity to understand my own religion and the religions of the world in a more academic manner.

I began visiting churches and other religious centres, and went to services to learn about the different faiths at first hand. In none of them, regardless of denomination, did I hear the preacher cursing others and praying for their destruction. In none of them did I hear the preacher shouting at the top of his voice into a heavily-amplified microphone. The religious ceremonies that I attended were quiet and peaceful, the priests and preachers serious but calm in their demeanour - and all were most welcoming.

I did find, however, that the mosque in Kalamazoo was just like those I had left behind in Abu Dhabi. The imam would curse and scream and promise punishment and impending doom. My most embarrassing experience was when some American students wanted to come with me to listen to the sermon at Friday prayers. The imam, in his usual manner, cursed them roundly in Arabic and I had to translate what was being said to my fellow students.

After completing the introductory courses on the major religions of the world, such as Hinduism, Christianity, Buddhism and Judaism, I began an intensive study of the Islamic faith in all its subdivisions so that I could begin to understand my own religion more fully. Eight years have passed since then and my studies continue, but I now believe that the manner in which the sermons were made when I was a boy and in America does not conform to what the Islamic faith preaches.

Ever since the September 11 attacks of 2001, the mosques in the United Arab Emirates have been brought under the direct supervision of the Ministry of Islamic Endowments and Religious Affairs and under the direction of enlightened religious leaders. Now, the sermons are considerably more humane and deal with issues that are of immediate concern to the worshippers. Where, in the past, politics took precedence in the mosque, today, religious, social, and humanitarian matters have a significantly greater importance. Political issues are still discussed, but only if there is religious clarification needed on them. Today, the ending of the sermons are also vastly different. Now, they always finish with prayers for the well-being of all mankind and to ease the hardships of all.

I am happy that my sons and the sons of my sisters and brothers living in the more enlightened UAE of today will not be exposed to the angry, vengeful face of the imams I remember from my childhood. Instead, they will discover the humane and tender face of the Islamic ideal that was lost but has now found its place again.

Dr Khalid Salem Al-Yabhouni is a political analyst and researcher
http://1426.blogspot.com/2008/06/sermons-of-hate-from-my-childhood-have.html

Comments (285)Add Comment
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written by Ken Liew, June 25, 2008 13:55:30
Well, i do remember you said, The enemy of Islam are Muslims.... to be more accurate, Muslim like the Lah-Lah Old guy.


Since he sub a hadhari. making it as a proof, That he is a common enemy of Original Islam.

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written by eeyaw, June 25, 2008 13:57:02
To my Muslims Brothers & Sisters,
Peace be with you for you & me are one and there is only one GOD the Almighty! We live in one Earth, sharing off the land and when we are done we shall all go to Heaven, one Heaven!
Amen!!!!
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written by ilovepakatan, June 25, 2008 14:00:26
Islam, Christian, Buddha, Hindu, etc - all the same. As long as you are good and you treat others well, that is all it matters.
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written by middlepath, June 25, 2008 14:02:20
Dear all Loving Malaysians,
we must support our RPK, he is the real human being that is down to earth, he dont have to do all these, he dont have to .... whatever RPK done all are pointing to the selfless, (not selfish like the Umno BN politician,= CAG = Corruption, Arrogant, Greedy), He show us Humanity, Humility, human right, multiracial, unversal value system, human right, integrity, fairness, multicultural,
the high level of human being, characteristic.

We must make sure we support the RPK cause for better and bangsa Malaysia.
If not due to RPK, we will be worse than today, we must change, change, change,
support the universal value of RPK preach,
we must vote for change, change, change, we must educate those weak and not brave, those confuse, we must all move forward to the bangsa malaysia new frontier, where no human being are treated differently due to the skin color,

This is ultimate in life, we must throw the seeds of humanity to all malaysian, so that we all live in peaceful and fruitful environment, get rid of those Umno and BN politician that is very corrupt, arrogant and greedy, we must
vote for change, change to pakatan rakyat government, give them a chance to show us what is good governance,
we must not live in fear or "may 13th" we must not fall into the trap of Dr M,
Umno, that only good and benefits the few umno cronies,
all of us are suffering of the
High petrol price (highest petrol price in the net oil exporting country)
high toll in the highway, pay, pay, pay,
high car prices due to excise duty and AP, only benefit a few Umno cronies,
high price for income tax, higher than Singapore , HK,
high price for everything we do......
we must vote for change
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written by ahmadneil, June 25, 2008 14:05:25
The best way to conquer an enemy is with the weapon of love.God's teaching may not always make sense,but it's always senseless to think we know better.
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written by Democrats, June 25, 2008 14:07:33
Religion has been taken advantage of since the existence of mankind to spread hatred, fear, justification to will power, colonize and kill one another, because most religion practices exclusivity and a action and reaction/reward concept.

Live well, and be rewarded a better future in the afterlife, Do evil things, prepare to be reborn as a mosquito etc.... sacrifice my body to uphold my religion, be rewarded with 72 virgins in the afterlife, commit suicide and offer your body their god, a UFO will come and collect you to your afterlife, etc...

Mankind has exploited religion and use it to wield power against others. If only people can truly see what religion stands, to lead a good life, and accept other for what they are not and live harmoniously among one another, rather than trying to change others, by force or by intimidation.

Take away the contradicting historical and mystical events of religion, you will see that what they do are merely a message to lead a good life....
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written by semut, June 25, 2008 14:09:01
agree with ilovepakatan.. taking care of each other is most important.. not telling lies on national tv and make malaysian suffer!

http://semutmalaysia.********.com
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written by Flex65, June 25, 2008 14:09:02
I will always remember what a monk told me when I met him many years ago. He told me that I can believe in which ever religion I want but do not be a fanatic. All religion teaches us to be good. If you believe in god, you must be able to tell HIM that you have done nothing wrong in your life when you have the opportunity to meet HIM. How many of us actually able to say that when we finally meet GOD.
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written by mikewang, June 25, 2008 14:09:56
Most non-Muslims will never read the Koran.
But they read Muslims.

It's the same with all religions.
Remember, it's only the followers who can bring shame or glory to their God.
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written by wakeupcall, June 25, 2008 14:10:35
I believe Dr Khalid Salem Al-Yabhouni is an enlightened muslim. He has done his observation well and I, as a buddhist, agree with him that when temples conduct religious talks, the speaker (a monk or a layman) normally touches on topics to improve our livelihood, to teach followers to show compassions towards all beings and to share spiritual experiences and never condemning others at all.

The speakers must behave and show good examples as they have great influences on the followers.

This is a good article for all Malaysians to learn. Learn it from Raja Petra and Dr Khalid Salem Al-Yabhouni and we shall have a great nation called Malaysia.


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written by Malaysia Digest, June 25, 2008 14:23:15
There are just too many narrow-minded Malaysian be it the Malay and the Chinese. The Malay with their "sama kaum" priority and the Chinese with their "kaki-lang" priority. No one really bother about "sama bangsa Malaysia".

Malaysia Digest
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written by ahmadneil, June 25, 2008 14:25:25
'm a catholic and I always bring my children to church to sing hymn and read bible,to hear the priest read sermon.This is the place that I find solace.Let us all be humble and hold our faith close to our hearts.'God forgive them for they did not know what they are doing' is the last words of Christ asking God to forgive the Jews who crucified Him.Let us all repent and ask for forgiveness.
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written by MalaysiaBaru, June 25, 2008 14:25:36
My fellow Malaysians,

The Malays, Chinese, Indians, Kadazans and Ibans used to live in peace and harmony. We used to cherish our multi-culturalism and enjoy each other's festivities.

However, ever since the MM took over the reign of Malaysia, he has inculcated a deep resentment among the various races towards each other. He unscrupulously manipulated the people so that he can divide and rule over the country and plunder the nation for all its worth.

It is high time that we put aside our petty differences now and come together to build a New Malaysia under Pakatan Rakyat. We need to work hand in hand to realise the full potential of our beloved country. It won't be easy. We will not see the results over night. It may even take another generation to change the But we must be willing to make a change now, and let the next generation enjoy the fruits of our sacrifices!
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written by slash n burn, June 25, 2008 14:27:25
I couldn't agree more with you RPK. Your articles are always enlighten and 'rescue' from the sermons.
I was exposed to this kind of sermon in my college years. It was total shock in disbelief at first. God can't be uttering such words nor He has negative characteristics. Those are belong of the devil alone.
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written by wongnoball, June 25, 2008 14:29:58
So when we can reach the state like UAE ??????? When, when, when ............
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written by Ann Meng Sim, June 25, 2008 14:30:28
My father reminds me all the time that no religion teaches us to do bad things. All religion teaches good.

I believe that no matter how many times a person prays, if he has bad intentions, no amount of prayers can help him.

I believe that there are many people out there who actually go to places of worship to pray just for show.

I believe that some people use religion as an excuse to be violent.

I believe that nobody should ever force their religion on others.

I believe that it is pointless to embrace a religion that one does not believe in.

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written by Surind Raj, June 25, 2008 14:30:58

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written by densemy, June 25, 2008 14:38:09
"Muslims are beginning to look like hypocrites"

To my independent eye they have always been hypocrites. Especially your so called Islamic Government which have used religion to manipulate the muslims of this country while at the same time behaving in a most Un-Islamic manner
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written by Naha, June 25, 2008 14:38:36
Dr Khalid Salem Al-Yabhouni's observation is such a truism. The screaming hate preacher is an unfortunate consequence of the Islamist politicizing of many sunni theological seminaries especially in Egypt, Jordan, Pakistan and Saudi Wahhabi Arabia throughout the last decade and getting worse. I don't know about Universiti Malaya's Islamic department, but then most imams are trained in Al-Azhar or its branches. Sure, I expect spiteful ire from those who wish to deny this, but I am recalling my life experience and it is not academic whitewash.

The only country I have visited that does not display sunni hate preaching is Syria, but I attribute that to the history of a strong tradition of practical Tasawwuf (sufism or spiritual esoterism), the co-existence of all five schools of sunni and shi'ite jurisprudence in one country despite the country carrying the historical stigma of the greatest tyrants of Islam's history in the persons of Mu'awiyah bin Abu Sufyan and his son Yazid bin Mu'awiyah who slaughtered the prophet's grandson Husayn and his father the prophet's cousin 'Ali. There is also the fact that the Syrian Ba'ath party's muhabarat (secret police) is everywhere observing the peace after current president Bashir's father brutally quelled an Islamist rebellion way back when.

It is as bad in the UK. I used to desperately search for a London mosque where the preaching is not vitriolic, but gave up even on the most moderate of the Moroccan-Algerian communities clearly mirroring the rise of Wahhabi takfirism in their home countries, and decided that it is best to go to ones where the Friday sermon is in Arabic, Urdu or Bengali only (without English translation) to spare my ears the hatred.

The most enjoyable sermons I hear are from shi'ite mosques be it run by Iranian, Iraqi, east African or Pakistani immigrants, with preachers usually trained in the shi'te seminaries of Qom, Iran or Najaf, Iraq. Now that is a contradiction when compared to the evil image that both sunni extremists and western media paint about the shi'ite community.

RPK, it is very unlikely that the hardcore conservative Malays will be willing to become more matured and escape the racism and pedantic literalism of Malay sunnism. If the visions of hell from Zimbabwe and old Yugoslavia are not enough for us Malays to change, then we are destined for the dustbin of history.
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written by TwilightYears, June 25, 2008 14:41:51
RPK is a true practising Muslim who understands Islam better than many Muslims and who has explained so many principles of good Islamic practice since the time of the Holy Prophet SAW.

One of the most misunderstood practice is the Muslim's call for prayer or Azan. From the Non Muslim pint of view, the sudden blast from the amplifier of a nearby surau or a masjid in the early morning (between 5.50 am to 6.10 am - depending on the time of the year) would give a severe headache to the light sleepers and would give a fright to the sleeping babies or children. This isssue has been raised to the Govt and to date, there is no solution. This issue calls for a much deeper understanding between the Muslims and the non Muslim. While the call for prayer sounds sweet to the Muslim, and most diligent Muslims would give thanks and proceed to perform his/her ablution and prayer. It is the opposite reaction from the non Muslims. I would advise that when the surau/masjid began their azan, they should adjust their amplifier to a softer tone and proceed to increase it's sound louder by degrees so as not to frighten the children/babies. It only takes some common sense to realise that one cannot just turn on the amplifier at full blast suddenly without causing a sonic boom.

The best example of tolerance I found was in the heart of Taiping town. I was staying in a cheap hotel at the busy traffic light junction before one enters into the Taiping Town or left to the Railway station. In this junction there is a big masjid built next to a equally big Indian temple. While the Azan is loud, the striking of the Indian Prayers "bells" is equally deafening. And yet, both these holy places have been there for ages. I must say that I am both intrigued by the sounds of these two entirely different practice. I remember that before the call for Azan was adopted, there have been suggestions to the Holy Prophet SAW that drums or gong be used to call Muslim to prayer. Bilal, the constant companion of the Prophet was the first to stand up and initiated the Azan. It has since been the practice. But then, there was no microphone nor loudspeaker during that time.

I sincerely hope that I have not raise for argument, but just an observation on my part that, like RPK mention, it takes two hands to clap.
May All beings be Well, May all beings be Happy.
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written by SamYap, June 25, 2008 14:48:30
I am not a muslim, but I know for sure that religion is truly a "personal covenant between the believer and his Allah/God". Think of it this way:

When you die and you are judged before God, would you say that you did not do wrong, but it was because your parents and teachers did not teach you morality?

Its almost like saying: "I did not blow up Altantuya, I merely asked that the woman be removed from my life".

See what I mean?

At least the Muslims and Christians have a chance to repent - asking Allah/God for forgiveness, but for a Buddhist like me, there is no salvation; we reap what we sow.
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written by crayon, June 25, 2008 14:51:52
actually, to be really honest... why is RELIGION linked to politics at all?. It's absurd.
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written by simply_say, June 25, 2008 14:55:12
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good." - Thomas Paine 1737-1809, Anglo-American Political Theorist, Writer

All religion has this simple but hard to practice principle.

Easily insert quotes and jokes into your writing at http://www.xlpert.com/quotes.htm
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written by nocrid, June 25, 2008 14:59:13
When I watch National Geographic or Discovery Channel, some of the show depicted the Islamic countries and when they showed the clip with prayer, the sound of the prayer "berkumandang" from the tellie sooth me. But strangely enough, this never happen here. Maybe it got to do with the pitch. Hehehehe... I am buddhist though.
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written by Thian, June 25, 2008 15:05:51
The more I read his article, I more I admire this guy. For speaking truth with NO HOLDS BARRED

Thank you once again for raising the consciousness of Malaysia.
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written by malsia1206, June 25, 2008 15:07:09
Looking back the past 50 years since Merdeka, you find the non-Muslims and non-Malays very accomodating. Now that they start to be a little vocal to ask for some fairness and equitable tratment, you get some cynical politicians who play the racial card and all those 'special position and privileges' in the Federal Constitution to marginalise them. The statistics are there for all to see. The NEP is glaringly abused. APs, civil service, places of worship, education and scholarships, registered contractors, licences and permits, the list goes on. Can we expect Malaysia to go through another 50 more years of the same? Believe me, if the Muslims and Malays expect the same favoured historical treatment in all these segments, all hell is likely to break loose. And noboby would come out as any winner. If Barak Obama had gone so far at this time in the US Presidential elections, it shows times are achanging. Even Nelson Mandela was elevated and duly recognised in South Africa during the late stage of his time. Can we speak of the same in Malaysia? It's our own call.
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written by gundam, June 25, 2008 15:18:46
when religious extremists committed crime, they did not realize wat they were doing was wrong.

some humans like to manipulate and some can easily be manipulated.

we do not know wat we are doing.
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written by mgeo, June 25, 2008 15:25:26
YM RPK calling a spade a spage as usual. Bravo! I wonder whether this will attract yet another Sedition charge. Remember the writer who was charged on the same day as RPK recently?

The other religions may not preach hatred overtly (nowadays) but the mental blocks definitely exist. As seen from my attempts to raise idiosyncracies, injustices etc., the response is always that the actual correct injunction is somewhat different. This flip-flop allows them to continue with double-think. Pressing the issue will produce (a) withdrawal or (b) a burst of anger.
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written by johnT, June 25, 2008 15:28:39
I would like to recall the history of how muslim come to Malaysia. During 1400 ac The Melaka King is Parameswara. He is a non muslim and all the malay that time is non muslim but hindu. So come the Arab Muslim to do bussiness with Melaka, When they arrive in Melaka, They show the love of Muslim to the non Muslim Malay. By showing thier true love and brotherhood they have an opportunity to convert the Melaka King to become Muslim than follow by the rakyat without force at all. Now we see the diffrent of muslim before and muslim today. Muslim people before is full with love to thier non muslim brothers, But why today Muslim people insult and call the non muslim kafir? Chinese in Malaysia been treaten as second class citizen just because they are non muslim, I am sure if all chinese in Malaysia add a Bin in the middle of thier name they will enjoy the same prioty as the Malay do. I wonder why today Muslim people mix religion with racist? I would like to question any Mufti who read this article izzt a sin or dosa to practice racist in the quran?
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written by kennyeu, June 25, 2008 15:31:32
...that Islam is a fake religion, that Prophet Muhammad had been deceived by Satan...


It's amazing because I have heard all of these things said at some point in the past too. At the time I didn't think that many people have heard of these thoughts but it seems that it is more prevalent than I had imagined.

As a non religious person living in Malaysia, I have definitely come to feel a coldness and a distance from muslims in general that I did not feel ten years ago. Something has changed and it is a very unsettling feeling when suspicion and animosity is heavy in the air. May be it's the media, may be it's the education but whatever the source, I feel that there is a real divide in Malaysians. In my mind, I have never done anything wrong to deserve this scorn and I don't understand this feeling of hate for one another.
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written by benjo, June 25, 2008 15:40:15
It is a very timely lesson to TDM who knows not what he is doing.
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written by SocratesI, June 25, 2008 15:43:45

RPK is an enlightened Muslim, as is Dr.Khaled Salem, obviously !

Let us stand way back and take a long hard look at RELIGION per se ... Almost all the time each and every religion is written by God through his chosen vassals or by "Perfect Enlightened" human beings (for those who are atheists and do not believe in God).

We must be aware that RELIGION as professed by us mere mortals are "PERFECT", and us mere mortals are definitely "imperfect" or far less than perfect !! So we end up with "An Imperfect People practising a PERFECT RELIGION", and the fact that communication between speaker and listener is never 100%, this opens up a whole horde of different interpretations of the same religion - Catholic, Methodist, Protestant, etc. etc. and Muslims Sunni, Shi'ite etc. etc., and Mahayana Buddhists, Zen, Tibetan, etc. etc. and so on ...

Of course there are those of us who have given up and just choose to be either Agnostic (believe in God, but see religion as man's attempt to interpret God's Will, so do NOT believe in religion), or atheists - Buddhists are atheists as they do not believe in God.

I SAY - TO EACH HIS/ HER OWN !! I would much sooner be friends with a GOOD person of a different Faith than a BAD perosn who espouses my religion !! Hopefully, Malaysians as a whole are mature enough to be like that instead of letting religion, etc. to dictate who we can befriend. That would be a dark day in Hell, if that were to happen !!

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written by tino_chan1988, June 25, 2008 15:46:08
I would like to believe that all mainstream religion preaches peace, tolerence and harmony among its followers, regardless whether its Islam, Christianity or Buddhism.

The root problem of religion today is that the interpretation of the religion itself. An interpretation performed by MAN himself. With different upbringing, education and environmental exposure, people develop different perceptions on how they perceive their religion. A fanatical individual, cultured by years of distorted upbringing percieved sacrificing their very own lives as the ultimatum for their beliefs.

Dr Khalid Salem Al-Yabhouni's and RPK's statement does indeed reflects the actual truth of what is happening in the world today. Unless the people in the world understand the true practice and teaching of their respective religion, religious conflicts will continue to happen and peace will not prevail.
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written by Jitra Boy, June 25, 2008 15:54:24
I agree with you Socrates. 100 votes for you......most of the time its the followers that is protecting the listeners and not the other way round....and since every religion is protecting their own god, why don't they let god settle it among them? i beleive in god. As a born muslim, i beleive in Qada & Qadar which means cause and effect. And due to that and due to what happen to the world ecspecially the last 20 years, i think god do not interfere with our daily life...let it be let it be.....and i beleive a man do not have to be a muslim or a christian or a Hindu to be a GOOD HUMAN BEING in this 21st century....and man is not judge by what they beleive. Not even by what they say. But what they do!
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written by SeriousLy, June 25, 2008 16:02:33
UMNO is the cause of racial and religious tension in this country! Actually all the initial Islamization concept was planted by UMNO and it is difficult to be washed or taken away! It has grown and well fed into many fundamental brains of Muslims in Malaysia! It has spread to PAS! If UMNO was not born then Malaysia is a different country by now! Probably we are like Singapore! smilies/grin.gif
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written by SeriousLy, June 25, 2008 16:07:47
All the business and financial communities are fearful of UMNO creating riots if Opposition Party takes over the Parliament! They are the cause of the Stock Market/Bursa Malaysia to fall! Not that they fear of the Opposition! smilies/grin.gif
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written by Milo, June 25, 2008 16:12:20
There are much wisdom shared in this thread on religious matters. Will the leaders of PAS get the point? The answer will determine if we have leaders who use their God-given wisdom or their narrow-minded interpretations based on a rigid ego-driven brain.
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written by Jitra Boy, June 25, 2008 16:35:07
Interpretation? of the teachings? of the book you mean mr tino? if it is from god than it shoud be easily inteprated or it should come together with a guide to interpret it or it should be multi linggual isn't it? And not with words and sentences that have seven meanings thus created seven groups that kills each other......and yet beleive in the same god....and god does nothing...The truth is, what is said or written thousands of years ago is meant for the peiople who lives thousands of years ago and it is meant to be improved from time to time....and what is written thousands of years ago not all can be used as an undisputed rule or law of today......and for that thousands of years that have passed, god never appear to solve all the conflicts. FULL STOP. May someone enlighten me please.
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written by Rajen Bumiputra, June 25, 2008 17:18:54
YM RPK,

The latest case, Elangeswaran anak Hindu (Parit Buntar, Perak) dead body is claimed by Anak-Anak pengganas (sons of Terrorist/ Taliban) from Jabatan Agama Islam Perak. refer to Malaysiaindru.com (Tamil version of Malaysiakini)

How to build unity among race & religion in Malaysis. When Government servant busy disturbing Hindus and others.

Islamic terrorist of Perak refer to these statement by Sultan of Perak:

"The Sultan of Perak, Sultan Azlan Shah, today reminded the people not to test or challenge religious issues to the extent of creating uneasiness among society." BERNAMA Tuesday 24 Jun 2008

Taliban of Perak dont tarnish name of Islam and Sultan Azlan Shah as head of Perak Islam Religion.
Did Sultan ask you to take away or hold mayat Anak Hindu (Hindu dead Body). Dont you have any other work.
What is the difference between AlMaunah, JI, KMM and you. Go to Afghanistan, you anak terrorist of jabatan Agama Islam Perak. Ustaz Fairuz anak terrorist go to Hell.

Dont try to play with Sultan (Perak king). Sultan is for everybody. Sultan is protector for/of all race and religion of rakyat perak (all Perakian).
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written by JFR, June 25, 2008 17:23:51
"RPK is an enlightened Muslim, as is Dr.Khaled Salem, obviously ! "
Enlightenment apparently does have a lot of attraction among Muslims.They appear to prefer something from the Quran or the Hadith.It seems that appealing to enlightenment or political correctness does not strike as strong a resonant chord in them as telling them their scriptures say so. Therefore, to effect a change in mindset,attitude and behaviour, it would be seem that people learned and 'qualified' in the study of the scriptures should come forward and lend weight to RPK's and the doctor's words.

"We talk about inter-faith tolerance"

Instead of 'tolerance',which to me has a somewhat negative,longsuffering connotation,why don't we talk acceptance of each other although we may not agree with the 'other's' convictions.
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written by SotPlug, June 25, 2008 17:25:41
No need to say anything bad about Islam. Just try putting the Buddhist and Christian prayers through kilometer-range loudspeakers and we'll have bloodshed everywhere. Don't even need to be 5 in the morning. Anytime will do.
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written by JFR, June 25, 2008 17:26:15
Oops sorry,typo,the above should read :Enlightenment apparently does NOT have a lot of attraction among Muslims.They appear to prefer something from the Quran or the Hadith.It seems that appealing to enlightenment or political correctness does not strike as strong a resonant chord in them as telling them their scriptures say so. Therefore, to effect a change in mindset,attitude and behaviour, it would be seem that people learned and 'qualified' in the study of the scriptures should come forward and lend weight to RPK's and the doctor's words.
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written by unomalaysia, June 25, 2008 17:29:04
I believe no religion teaches people to be bad and evil. Many of us, when we are troubled often find peace of mind in religion. I have friends from all religions and also from no religion and to me what you believe is between you and god and not the business of anyone especially bloody politicians. To me the Quran is a book that teaches a person to be good, humane and fight evil. It may have jihad but jihad is the fight against all evil (not those as defined by politicians, racist or extremists) and not necessary has to be war. To me jihad is also a fight by one self against prejudice, racism, bigotry and all evil thoughts i.e. it is ones struggle against all evil that aims to seduces man, the intelligent yet extremely stupid being.
Today I teaches my kids to respect all Malaysians be they Muslim, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, free thinker/atheist, Malay, Chinese, Indians, etc. and to respect their beliefs. I hope my kids will grow up enlightened and useful. By the way I am Buddhist but if invited I will go to a mosque, church, Hindu or sikh temple.

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written by Amy Chan, June 25, 2008 17:29:27
As far as I know Buddhism does not force others to believe in it. It all boils down to a person's readiness whether he is ready to accept Buddhism or not. Buddhism never condemns other religions.
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written by cheekhiaw, June 25, 2008 17:47:10
The mix of extreme ignorance and supreme arrogance backed by the self righteous believe that one's deity is the one and only true deity, and that the very act of adopting that belief represents the end of ignorance is not just conveniently easy.

It is also dangerous.

On the dimension of entire civilisations, such beliefs meant the end of progress of the Syriac, Persian and Hellenic civilisations at places it touches.

It may take 2 hands to clap, or 1 hand to slap, or 1 hand to kill.

An arrogant idea needs no hands but only foolish minds to be destructive....

xxx
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written by fireduck, June 25, 2008 17:52:54
Religion is a personal thing. It's between your God and you. I believe that there is an intrinsic goodness is each of us. I believe that we can see, and know what is good and what is bad. We have a natural affinity for good, as it brings joy and happiness. I believe that everyone has a soft spot for someone else.

But along the way in our growing up, we get brainwashed. Our goodness gets hijacked - by our parents, our teachers, our priests, pastors and imams, our leaders, our bosses, our friends, and most importantly by our peer groupsand society at large. Growing up is not an easy task. We are constantly bombarded with prejudices and bias, the constant stereotyping, etc. And soon without us even realising it, we imbibe a whole lot of these 'ungood' values through sheer unconscious osmosis.

Of course, religion is one of the areas where prejudices run strong. To be fair, even Christians are known to show such prejudices, especially towards the practices of non-Christians eg. the Taoists. And they would not hold the joss-sticks even in paying respects to a dearly departed whose last rites follow the Taoists' way. Even if his close family members may gripe about it, the Christian will not touch the joss-stick for fear of displaying 'pagan worship', perhaps. But does God really care? Does that gain you extra points when you meet St. Peter? I don't know.

If we can stand back from the daily madness and think a while we will find that ultimately it's you and your own God. You may get offended if someone puts down your religion, but if you react in such manner that contravenes our basic goodness, then it's between you and your God to settle whether you have been justified in doing what you did. And if you just let it pass, the issue gets diminished in significance. And you find that there are more important and practical issues that you need to worry about. Like your family and your health, for example.

I do not know why people get so hung up on religion until they are easily swayed into a mob frenzy. Or they get so pliant when it comes to religion that just anyone can fire him up into taking actions for the 'defence' of the relgion. And usually those that fire them up are the politicians, who have some other motives, and are just 'borrowing the knife', or using proxies to obtain their political interests.

But what do I know? I am after all, a free-thinker bordering on atheism. smilies/wink.gif
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written by cheekhiaw, June 25, 2008 18:10:58
Many a fool had done the most barbaric as prove that his favorite idea is right...

xxx
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written by Amy Chan, June 25, 2008 18:11:40
The following website shows a former Muslim speaks about Islam :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WLoasfOLpQ
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written by panca, June 25, 2008 18:16:26
Pete, Thank you very much for sharing with all of Malaysia, "Malaysians".

Religion is a personal thing that in one way or another we grow up with or around us, with the hope that more people we become better people to all.

Only humans has religion but has not learnt to be less harmful to one another and the environment. Anger and hatred in the religion is the same as what we all will end up with - our SELF worst No 1 ENEMY!
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written by cheekhiaw, June 25, 2008 18:54:48
They talk of whacking Iran precisely because muslims think all muslims are brothers (and thereby others are not) no matter what...

xxx
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written by amoker, June 25, 2008 19:08:47
Yalor, we are not good enough until we become Muslims. If not, we are just infidels / Kafir that is class 2 citizens as per Islamic nation function. Assimilation is towards creating a single plural majority nation. At least that is what my lecturer tell us.

TO me, my standards are not beyond the world. Refrain from taking bribes and earn what you work for. So simple.
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written by apasalahku, June 25, 2008 19:32:10
Is it really because of a few deviant followers or there is something wrong with the essence of the religion itself?
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written by Kyle, June 25, 2008 20:06:57
Raja Petra,

I only wish to say "Thank you."
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written by Arrow, June 25, 2008 20:47:09
YM, you are a great guy.

Just to share a secret - there is no God - only a force of nature that ensures that what goes around comes around - so we don't have to do anything to the thieves and murderers that run the government because this force will rip them apart, when the time is right.

We just have to do the right thing so that our life gets better and better.
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written by cruzeiro, June 25, 2008 20:59:39
Hi RPK,
While I may agree with what you say, I do believe that it is unfair to imply that such "venom spouting" sermons are restricted to the Muslim preachers.
You do see extremes in the other two "abrahamic faiths" as well.
I say this becos I've witnessed the very same "hysteria" myself in some "venture-capitalist" institutions I call "mushroom churches" that compete for souls, being start-ups and all .....
Yes, mate - "souls" mean money, influence and power!
They not only preach hatred for "infidels" of other religions, but also other denominations.
But of course they don't really blare it out on the mic, lest they get whacked!
These churches are however a small minority.

The Muslims aren't alone in this, but this phenomenon is definitely more "popular" among the "less educated", insecure and frustrated "Muslims" - fear & hatred are powerful uniting forces when it evokes a seige mentality.
In fact it somehow appears to me that many preachers (Mulim, Jewcompete for popularity in the platform of hatred.
Many "vulnerable" sheep seek refuge in them becos they fear to think - they prefer to let leaders think for them.
A vulnerable and insecure person is always a sucker for a "pat on the back", love & brotherhood .... and being told what to think.
Life is so much easier and certain that way.

The sad part of it all is when intelligent people use it as a means to manipulate politics and seek power. Demonizing an "enemy" is often the most potent tool to prevent loss of your "flock".
When there are no more enemies to demonize, they pick on the most vulnerable in society - women.

It is usually politicization of religion that renders "faith" vulnerable to corruption.
===========================

SOS - "Saviour Of Souls" is in Town!!
http://cruzinthots.********.co...-town.html
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written by cruzeiro, June 25, 2008 21:11:05
C'mon guys - stop this argument about a former this talking about that,
or a former that talking about this,
or a miracle of god here & there,
or a child speaking in alien tongues.

These phenomena are seen in all communities - I even have a kid (who is no genius, mind you) staying nearby, who knows all the sankrit mantras by heart, even though his parents know nuts about all these stuff.
Get over it guys - enough of this one-upmanship!
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written by chaimah, June 25, 2008 21:26:36
I don’t belong to any religious faith and I am not against or condemn anyone who has a faith in any religion. In fact, up till now the concept of God eludes me. Putting it very crudely I am not a believer in God, any God. Similarly I do not expect God fearing people to be critical of me for not being a believer in God. ( I just don’t have a relationship with God yet, it may happen one day)

As it has already been said by many that Religion is a personal thing, it is between you and your God. So why are there so many God fearing people from all religious faith that are dishonest, selfish, lie, cheat, steal etc ect.

Saying that you are a muslim does not make you a muslim, Allah will be the judge of that. Saying that you are a Christian does not make you a Christian, God will be the judge of that.

I am inclined to believe that all religions have a fundamental objective of developing their followers to be simply good human beings. Not all God fearing persons are good human beings and not all good people are God fearing. Not all God fearing persons are fully developed, some are more developed than others. Some are plain underdeveloped

Good human beings come from all walks of life and from all religious faith. Good human beings will always respect other good human beings irrespective of race, religion or ethnicity.

To me race and religion are two different things. You have no choice in your race but you certainly can have a choice in your religion. You don’t have to be a Malay to be a muslim and not all Malays are muslims. ( I stand corrected )

So we must be very clear in our understanding with regards to our politicians, are they talking about race or are they talking about religion. It would be nice if all Malaysian Citizens are one race – Malaysians., eventhough we may have different ethnic backgrounds. So we are actually not a multiracial country we are a multi ethnic country.

I presume all our Malay politicians claim to be muslims. The question is are they undeveloped muslims, developing muslims or developed muslims. This applies equally to politicians from other religious backgrounds.

Pete, I very much agree with you that our politicians need to come to grips with their own stage of religious development before they can hope for a better Malaysia for the future generation.
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written by Daryl, June 25, 2008 21:37:17
Finally, an article that points to the root of the Islam fundamentalism problem. If Islam is about love why do they preach hate in not only in mosque but also in the class room. That is what I heard when I was in the secondary school in form 1. Muslims students were taught about apostacy and what they should do to those who dare to do it. In addtion, sex topic is always describe in detail about how wonderful it is and you are wondering why all the problem especially it was being taught to 13 years old kid.

Not trying to put Islam down but just those that are suppose to lead Islam to the new world and leave behind their "crusader" mentality. The Christians has move on to todays topic like abortion, gay marriages, modern life is a Christian and others in the modern world but Muslims is dealing with crusaders mind set of which religion is better and they are my enemy if you are not muslim. People like RPK and Dr Khalid Salem Al-Yabhouni hopefully will be the majority for muslims and also leaders of ISlam not the fundamentalist types.
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written by DontPlayGod, June 25, 2008 21:58:56
Quote from article:

"The usual style of delivery would be for the imam to begin quietly and then progress, getting louder and louder until he was screaming into the microphone."

You take the words from my mouth directly, so to speak. I have passed many mosques and have heard how they deliver their Friday sermons. I always wonder why and how things about God and spiritual things can be delivered in such a manner, as if the speaker is inciting the audience to war or rebel against some force! As if the speaker is inciting the listeners to go rebel and run amok, or to incite them to kill! Sorry my Muslim brethrens, that is just the impression one gets if one listens to how the Imams or Mullahs deliver their sermons.

As RPK said, they will be screaming and shouting, like haranguing the listeners to go to war and kill!

My own personal feeling is that sermons on God should be delivered in a mild and gentle tone and filled with love for mankind!! Maybe my views on giving sermons is outdated.
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written by ricky, June 25, 2008 22:45:29
Truth about Islam:
Sheikh Sharifuddin Khalifa,The five-years-old speaks in five languages - English, French, Italian, Swahili and Arabic - even though he is completely uneducated.

At one year old he was able to recite the Quran and went on to be able to preach in Arabic, Swahili and French without any learning.
The boy's first words - "You people repent and you will be accepted by God" were in Arabic.

He was also reported to be Hafiz Al Quran (memorised whole Quran) at the age of one and a half years and was also praying 5 times a day at that age.

This boy was born into a christian family and they later became muslim...

So what? That Islam is greater than other religion? Or that he is God-sent? Hey, how bout the lion in captivity whose roar sounded like "Arrrrrlllaaah" that got many Muslims upbeat and all!

...go ****** for much much more.
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written by nanakassim, June 25, 2008 23:03:33
written by taishan, June 25, 2008 | 15:20:11
Want two hands to clap.....read the following verses :-

8:39 Fight them until there is no dissension and the religion is entirely Allah's.


This is a classic illustration of manipulation in quoting words from the Quran to suit one's needs. Taishan relies on one single verse to display his knowledge or understanding of Islam. Try reading the wider context by starting with verse 8:38 which says: Say to those who disbelieve, if they desist, that which is past shall be forgiven to them; and if they return, then what happened to the ancients has already passed.

Then read verse 8:39 And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.

When read in the proper context, one will understand that Islam does not condone killing nor tell its followers to kill disbelievers. However, when faced with persecution by the disbelievers, a Muslim has a right to defend himself.
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written by cheekhiaw, June 25, 2008 23:10:07
Yah, you should have been there when Caliph Omar's people were running havoc all over the Middle East.

They conquered those lands by preaching...

xxx
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written by cheekhiaw, June 25, 2008 23:18:19
SIMPLISTIC 5-YEAR WONDER

If that 5 year old can talk about string theory in 5 languages we would be more impressed.

Otherwise, that could be prove of just how simplistic the book is...

xxx
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written by cheekhiaw, June 25, 2008 23:25:02
People had Sony Handycams recording the history of Caliph Omar. What is Nokia E90.

You should have asked your god's messenger how come he did not leave you with his personal recordings and had to leave it to men 100 years later to do his hadiths for him and that only after the Chinese had taught them how to make paper and write on it.

That's why fools like you don't have any history of even your caliphs...

xxx
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written by cheekhiaw, June 25, 2008 23:38:58
And the muslim fellas that bumped your caliph Uthman or those that bumped your caliph Ali all had nothing to do with their favorite belief, of course...

xxx
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written by Taiping60, June 25, 2008 23:39:09
Thank you Raja Petra for doing the right thing right. You are a true muslim and so is Dr Khalid Salem Al-Yabhouni. Thanks to both of you to share your knowledge of islam and to enlighten both muslims and non muslims alike.

All religions are good and none of them teach their followers to be bad. Only bad people preached bad things.

As I have said before religion is a very personal thing and it should remain that way. Politics is something else and please do not mix these two. I am bless to know so many muslims who are moderate, kind and helpful. There are only a few bad hats and as a result of that it created so much problems. We pray the moderates will eventually prevail. Similar among Taoist, Buddhist and Chirstians are also bad people. Fortunately, like muslims there are more good than bad.

So let us pray the majority moderate will prevail.
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written by temanmu, June 25, 2008 23:58:56
Even in Saudi Arabia:
"Saudi king calls for dialogue among different religions"

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/03/25/africa/ME-GEN-Saudi-Interfaith-Dialogue.php

UMNO - Malaysia is on reverse gear ... maybe they think that will save petrol!

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written by temanmu, June 26, 2008 00:00:37
Where is Malaysia inter-faith dialogue?

Now we are better than the Arabs!...
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written by cheekhiaw, June 26, 2008 00:08:19
LEANING FROM THE ARABS

Malaysia learnt its ways from their Kaaba.

That place used to house all the religions of the traders that passed that place, and was respected and visited by people of all religions.

After they adopted the Jewish idea of 'my deity is the only true deity and all others are crap', they turned that place into one that represents all that is evil deserving of their annual pebble throwing.

So you believe all religions are good?

xxx
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written by Frankfurtguy, June 26, 2008 00:21:23
To Me, there is only ONE GOD
We pray and praise HIM in a different ways, that is called religion

We are all human, same flesh, same red cells and white cells
We are dust and ashes when we die, SAME, dust and ashes, nothing more than this
I will consider all human beings are my family,
ONE race, ONE Malaysia

Religious fanatic is not our choice, our culture
Religious matters should not be the factor that breaking Pakatan Rakyat

RPK is true friend
I don't even care if RPK is muslim, christian or buddhist
ALL I know is, RPK is a human with blood and flesh like me, and he is a real hero with true human dignity and integrity


People in Pakatan Rakyat, please open your eyes, your ears
and pray for wisdom in this critical moment
ALL of US, One human race, united and pray to ONE GOD, that HE will grant you all wisdom to create a Better MALAYSIA!!

smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif
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written by cheekhiaw, June 26, 2008 00:44:13
SIMPLE REFLECTION

Did they had that much appreciation of oil when they had their crusades 800 years ago?

May be if those muslim countries had chosen to surrender to the same god as the ones wanting to whack Iran today, there would not be such trouble.

Since you make your own choice may be you shouldn't blame those other people for wanting to put down the Muslim countries.

Their choice god look more powerful...

xxx
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written by mhwang, June 26, 2008 01:47:18
shamsul, just ignore that cheekhi fellow. totally a waste of our time. a bigot and full of s@@t.
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written by cheekhiaw, June 26, 2008 02:02:32
Welcome to the world of divinely shrouded bigotry.

You were born yesterday?

xxx
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written by mhwang, June 26, 2008 02:12:28
nice command of multi syllable words. Do u actually know their meanings?

DO u have a religion young man? don't tell me u r a buddhist coz shame on u! Buddhists don't go around insulting other religions. Pls present your arguments in a sane manner. Don't go butting ppl down with your senseless tirades. If u r really frustrated about how this country is run then do something about it..don't rant like a spoilt brat.

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written by Thian, June 26, 2008 02:50:21
Cheekhiaw, Shamsul Siahan, Kelana, Taishan.

Some Malaysian has become more Aware and have cultivated Interdependent Inclusive Consciousness. I think you should read more what RPK means. It is good for you all.

Do not mean to insult anyone. Just read what you guys write, So much Negativity. Try Positive it works just as well. I know it is very difficult. But when you learn that you will be so much happier.

Best regards
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written by mhwang, June 26, 2008 03:00:45
Much obliged Thian.
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written by madtrix, June 26, 2008 03:00:53
aiyah, again we are back to the ad infinitum my religion vs your religion. If we really want to make any progress, it's time that we realize that we are born as human beings first before we discover religion. For many, we didn't even get the chance to discover it. Our parents decided for us. Unfortunately, the laws in Malaysia have added another layer of complication for Malays.

Be that as it may, let's try to clear the deck and level the playing field in our minds. I know it's not as easy as it sounds because for many of us, we've been born into it and are constraint by family ties and politics. But folks, if we are truly honest, we must be willing to dig deep within us and questions our assumptions, even the sub-conscious ones, if we can reach them. That should be our starting point. I repeat it's only a starting point but it's essential. Now can we all agree to do that, muslim and non-muslim?
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written by Zul Kahar, June 26, 2008 05:09:11

Islam????
Do you submit to His Will???
Who knows what are His Will???
Furthermore, who really knows Him well as how our forefathers, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Ismael, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad? In order to be on the same Straight Path as how they were Graced by Him of the earlier people before us.

Who can really guide you in witnessing Him, the Unseen GOD, the One and Only in order to ensure that your syahadah or oath is an ABSOLUTE TRUTH and not LIES? Seeing is Believing, Man!

Anyway, what I've seen is that in most of the people, no matter they are the Leaders, Commons or even Lower Kastas, always wished that everybody must bow to their's will instead of His Will. In other words, they wished to be God themselves. So, stubborn just as how the devils acted towards God. Therefore, to me, those who wished to be gods, are leaded by the Devil or Satan, who always in arrogance, stubborn since Adam's time.

To Whom the Devils came down to? To the LIARS who are making a lot of sins/ evil/ bad. Even HE delacred that the Devils are a VERY GOOD LIARS! Even our First Father, Phophet Adam, was managed to be cheated by him (devil). How about us?

Further, most of people who claimed themselves as Islam, they like themselves to be praise by people while their lips are saying 'Alhamdulillah' (All Praises are for God Alone) either in pray or after meals or after burps. This is what we Malay called as 'Cakap tak serupa bikin'. Prove that they are liars. So, 'who' leaded these?

I wonders why many people are so eager and greedy in this 1st life?
Why forget about the 2nd life which will be the REAL one? And you're all are pushing and racing in your maximum capacity for this worldly life which is clearly temporary for everyone who can see, who can think, who can count?

Doctors always give us percentages in the illness for each of us in our medical record. Does any really think and count, how many percentage are death for everone of us if nothing else but 100%? Is there anyway out? And worst, do we all know the arrival of our death in time, where and when?

Who has ever got a dream that in his dream, he was rich in wealth, families or womans or discovering a golden treasure in that dreams? Perhaps most of you got it. How would be your feeling then whenever you woke up from the sleep and all the golden dreams was gone and the real one/ reality? Please care about this matter seriously because, that is how exactly you will feel when you woke up from death. 'He Who taketh the souls during death and during sleeps'. What would be left in our past life if not a memories? Can’t you see that you are living in this world just for a while? Like bubbles that will be gone in time. Isn’t it a Huge Loss for those who can count?

Does any of you have an Absolute Truth of Confirmation to Ensure your Prosperity in the Real Eternal Life in the Hereafter (2nd Life)?
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written by Thian, June 26, 2008 08:13:37
I enjoyed reading AssamLaksa’s argument in the Pakatan Rakyat is losing the plot; and admire his patience to present to someone that have obviously lack both the consciousness and raison d'être of being a Human Being and the intimate relationship with God.

Malaysia needs more real Muslim like RPK who walk the talk; than those so called Muslims who are hypocrites.

Malaysia needs more real Muslim to stand up and defend the evils that is going on rampant perpetrated under the banner of Islam.

Dont talk, show me. Walk the talk. Dont Talk and talk.

I salute you, RPK, for raising the consciousness of Malaysia
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written by James Loh, June 26, 2008 08:52:12
If found this interesting story from Sufism website. Sufism is another branch of Islam. As a non-Muslim, I've never being interested to learn about Islam. The reason is because of my personal experience with Islam in Malaysia. Fortunately, I managed to learn from Sufism/Islam from the internet. Below is a story that you might learn one thing or two from it too.

The Arrogance of the Puffed-Up Frogs
My love you, my grandchildren, my brothers and sisters, my sons and daughters. It is twilight now, and the sun is low in the sky. Shall we go out for some fresh air? Come with me. This park is a very nice place. Everybody comes here to breathe in the fresh air and feel healthy. Do you see the well over there? People can draw water from it when they are thirsty. Let's go closer and look inside the well.

Oh, look at all the frogs down there! They eat the germs and bacteria in the water, making it cleaner for drinking. Look at them jumping up and down, leaping here and there, and pulling on each other. They seem to be fighting. But why? Are they fighting over food? Are they competing for insects? Let's watch some more and see if we can discover why they are fighting.

Ah, there is the cause! It's not food they are fighting over. The two biggest frogs are both claiming that they are the greatest. Each one thinks he should be the leader. All the other frogs are frightened by their size and are diving deeper into the well to escape. But the two big frogs are challenging each other. They are full of pride and the qualities of the I. Look, my grandchildren, they are trying to swallow each other! But both of them are the same size. What do you think will happen? Let's watch and see. Don't chase them away. If we break up the fight now, they will only start another fight later. Let them finish their quarrel, or they will never have any peace.

Look, the first one has a good hold on his opponent and has swallowed his front legs. Do you see how his stomach is beginning to swell. But the second one has also swallowed the hind legs of the first and he too is puffing himself up. Now both of them have lost all the strength in their free legs, which are tiny and useless in comparison to their inflated bodies. Neither of them can jump any more. Each frog has swallowed half of the other, and they can't breathe.

Oh, no! Both frogs have died! They tried to swallow each other, and as a result both have suffocated and are floating belly up in the water.

My grandchildren, sometimes men also try to swallow each other, like these puffed-up frogs. And just like the little frogs who dove deeper into the well, good people become afraid and try to escape when they meet a man who is puffed up with pride and the arrogance of the I. It does not take long, however, until another arrogant man comes along to challenge him. They each boast, "I am the greatest!" Then, just like the big frogs, each man catches hold of the other and swallows half of him. They torture each other, and in the end they both die.

Frogs challenge each other out in the open, one on one. But men torment each other in a devious, vengeful, and jealous way. One person kills another, then a third person attacks the winner, and soon they all die, just like frogs.

My grandchildren, a female frog lays so many millions of eggs, and hundreds of thousands of them hatch. They all live together, but then, because of their arrogance, they fight with each other and die. Like this, animals and human beings have been slaughtering each other for two hundred million years. And this destruction has been growing worse all the time. You have seen this fighting, haven't you? You must be very careful not to catch this disease. Each man causes his own death by letting them grow inside himself. Eventually, someone else with the same disease will come looking for him, and soon both will die from their arrogance.

When you see arrogance, do not confront it. Why should you point out people's arrogance to them? Their time will come, and they will destroy themselves.

Those with wisdom who are devoted to God and trust Him must hide from the karma, arrogance, illusion, and pride of the world. Like the little frogs who dove into the well to escape from the big frogs, you have to hide. People with wisdom must dive in God, truth, and wisdom. They must escape by disappearing into love, peace, and tranquility.

This is what you must do in your lives, my grandchildren. Become human beings and search for the qualities of peace. Arrogance will always take on new forms, so you must be alert and do your best to escape. Hide in the truth. Hide yourselves in the qualities of the One who is unfathomable grace. Take on the natural and beautiful light form which is God's compassionate, just, and loving form. Reflect wisely and try to fill yourselves with good thoughts. You and I must try to live in God's protection.

My love you, my grandchildren. God is sufficient for us. He will protect us Amin. Amin.
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written by Su Dhanoa, June 26, 2008 09:02:27
People are crazy for power and wealth. Why kill yourself for power and wealth? In the end, only six feet or a little more shall be your lot.

The body is but a pile of dust, collected and packed together. It is a show which lasts for only a small time, and then dust return to dust.

Worship the Lord (may it by Allah or any other); meditating in remembrance on Him, trouble and pains depart. The Lord shall be revealed within your own heart and the burning fire within shall be extinguished by hi Name.
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written by Rock, June 26, 2008 09:48:29
It's high time for us to learn and understand Islam as religion, be they muslims or not if we wanna talk about it. We cant describe Islam like the blinds describing elephants. And can we explain it from those blinds description as the whole truth?
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written by onnetline, June 26, 2008 10:07:54
Whatever religion and in any true form does not condemn or suppress your fellow neighbours. True or False ?

If this is false, then it right for the corrupted 'sinners' to create or instill ill feelings or hatred among mankind.

Or are we all just too arrogant like UMNOputras to understand this ?
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written by hardworking_taxpayer, June 26, 2008 10:58:35
M'sian Muslims should be more like RPK. Put yourself in other people's shoes and feel what its like to be on the other side.

TwilightYears, agree with your comments totally! I am fine with Azan prayers but please...why the volume??!! At my place, I was woken up nearly every morning at around 5 am by the prayers and it goes on for nearly an hour!!! There are four masjid/surau in close proximity and each imam takes their turn to blare the speakers!! You can imagine how frustrating for us non-muslims. The thing is, there are as many non-muslims in my area too! Of course, there are the usual political sermons condemning us kafirs to hell. Is that fair?!

But then, what is the point in telling those fanatics? Its like talking to a tape recorder or something. They get totally out of topic and claim that we are condemning the religion when what we are trying to do is to ask them to turn down the volume.
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written by yatchee, June 26, 2008 11:28:10
Dear Raja Petra, You are really our respected person. You always tell out the truth to all malaysians . LONG LIVE ...RAJA PETRA...
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written by DontPlayGod, June 26, 2008 11:55:51
taishan wrote, quote:

"O, you who believe [in the message of Muhammad], do not take Jews and Christians as friends. They are friends to one another, and the one among you who turns to them is of them."

I find it hard to believe that any messenger of God would utter those words. All mankind are from God, and it is hard to believe that God will discriminate one against another, or ask one section of the people to fight people of another race/denomination, i.e. if we believe in creation.

A kind and loving God will want all peoples to live in peace, harmony and love for one another, helping and caring for one another. Amen.

To this end, I find it hard to fathom the writings and comments of some of those bloggers here who play God.
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written by cheekhiaw, June 26, 2008 12:19:15
That is only if you presume those were words of a deity, and you know what everyone's version of his deity is like.

Playing god is one thing, playing for so many gods is another...

xxx
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written by Debbie, June 26, 2008 14:21:42
Every nation in the world has it's racial and religious issues and problems. Think we can do better? All this is the soap-opera of life or sendiwara.

If we are fed-up with a certain situation, it is better to be pro-active to come out with a solution.

KEEP RELIGION & RACISM OUT OF POLITICS!

We should be wise to the fact that both Racism and Religion CANNOT WORK. So, we should just have selfless representative to become politicians that are not fanatics in their religion. Australia has a good political scenario and players.
People who can poke fun at themselves and the world are super cool...

www.sbs.com.au/salamcafe
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written by fandi, June 26, 2008 14:22:04
A TRUE Muslim and Halfpass six Malay.

A true Muslim has so many good thoughts like the Ten Commandments.
If you are a Malay and when you are born you are considered a Muslim likewise a Catholic, And maybe other religious group also. So in a basket of apples there are bound to be some bad apples which will more or less contaminate the neighboring apple and make them sick or bad..As they say to be a champion stick to the winners, or to catch a thief think like a thief.

In this life there are ups and downs.and it is up to us to make the best we can. Like RPK is married to Marina likewise me I am married to a Malay.I cannot buy ASB and so too Marina. I do not or get to enjoy the NEP, Marina gets zeelt in the NEP No doubt our children can buy the ASB, that is the only thing we look towards the future for. Now the Eurasians like the portugese decent can buy ASB. Now what about ASB and who is making more money out of it. It’s the Banks that is giving out the loans..How they make money, ask the bankers.Too long a process to discuss.

Islam as a religion is good but what makes the religion bad is the people. They do not practice what they preach. If every Malay is so healthy with being a true Muslim there will be no NEP as Islam does not propagate NEP. So what the gomen is doing is base on race and cronies and not Islam. It can be any race that is in power doing it, so why the big issue on NEP, get rid of it as all the opposition Malays are not getting to enjoy the NEP. Why do not the gomen put a vote on the NEP or a concensus from all the Malays whether they want the NEP to continue or not, because pretension and guilt by using the other marginalised Malays to propagate their wealth and their cronies wealth is not a true muslim.
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written by Rainbowseahorse, June 26, 2008 16:39:07
shamsul siahaan says: "...Don’t be surprised if eventually they themselves would be fighting for and on the side of Islam".

One question please. Which side of Islam would these new converts be fighting for? As it is, in some of the mostly Muslim Arab countries, Pakistan, and Afganistan, our muslim brethern are killing/blowing up each other every day.
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written by Rainbowseahorse, June 26, 2008 18:31:04
Come to think of it, daily as we watch news of people desperately trying to save lives in disaster stricken countries like Mynmar, China, and else where, in the same news we watch our Muslims brethren busy taking lives with suicide bombers. So, where is the logic in all this senselss killings of Muslims against Muslims?

If we Muslims cannot even get along with each other, how can we expect to get along with people from other faiths!
Tell me how am I supposed to defend my faith against that type of astrocities committed by my fellow Muslims against Muslims?
In the older days before wide spread TV and the multi media, it would have been easier to keep such informations from people, but these days we just cannot be ignorant of what's going on in our world. Our Islam is doomed to be perceived as what the other non Muslims will perceived it to be. No amount of Islam Hadahri can educate the world other wise.
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written by Rainbowseahorse, June 26, 2008 18:44:17
Sometime back, there were videos showing the cutting off (yes, cutting off and not chopping which would have been quicker and more humane)the heads of a Japanese tourist and U.S soldier by the Iraqies extremist.

RPK, imagine the consequences if those videos were of Christians or people of other faiths cutting off the heads of Muslims. I think our very excited Muslim brethren would have gone around cutting off the heads of ALL none Muslims around their vecinity....and then the next day to strap bombs on their bodies to blow up their fellow Muslims of a different sect.
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written by bakas, June 26, 2008 19:26:39
written by shamsul siahaan, June 25, 2008 | 18:42:25
RPK, you're just trying to be silly. You're trying to raise matters that are irrelevant, sermons in churches and temples insulting Islam and the resultant mobs by Muslims (though it's only just imaginary). But the question is why that kind of imagination? Yes, it takes two hands to clap or as the old saying goes, it takes two to tango. Both hands or the tangoing partners must fully respect each other. The stand taken by Muslims is very clear and unambiguous, as far as religion is concerned - to you is your religion, as is to mine. Surely, as a Muslim, you should very well know, it's a grave sin for Muslims to insult other religions, let alone drawing caricatures depicting Christian religious leaders kicking the statues of Jesus or depicting Hindu samis slaughtering and eating cows (remember, this is imaginary). That's on the ONE HAND. Likewise, the OTHER HAND must reciprocate on the same note. Stop all these Taliban or the suicide bomber imaginations. If the Muslims are left to themselves without outside interference like what is going on in Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan, the world would have been and would be a better place to live. But now they are talking about destroying Iran, simply because of its efforts to enrich uranium for nuclear purposes. Muslims are brothers, no matter what their races are. The pain suffered by their brethrens in those countries mentioned and elsewhere is definitely felt by the rest of the Muslims. And you get different and varying reactions from them. Are they to blame? So back to the hand clapping thing. RPK, please ensure that the hands of the non-Muslims are SINCERELY extended for clapping before putting the ONUS on the Muslims.

shamsul siahaan, you cheeky lad! Read carefully what RPK is saying and what the rest who are posting their comments here are posting. On one hand you are saying imaginative things, on the other hand saying about what should and should not have been in the world. My brother, please la…which part of what RPK is saying does not hold water? The responsibilities for a better world and eternal peace is for us to live together with our differences, religion, skin color, beliefs etc. It does not belong to the non-Muslims or Muslims alone. Everybody must start playing their role, or do you want to wait until dunia kiamat baru you nak sedar? Wake up! We will be judged by what we believe, yes, but let God be the judge. And while we are being judged on our beliefs, do not forget about our actions as well. Doing what is good is what every religion teaches us to do, not spread hate. I would bet with both my hands, that even if you know all the Qurans, the Torahs and the Bibles or all the sacred books in the world by heart, and yet you spread hate among the inhabitants of God’s green earth, your place would be the eternal fires of hell. The left hand does not need to tell the right hand to clap on 1,2,3. They just know, because they know that being together is their purpose for being created. And doesn’t the right hand protect the left as much as it protects itself? If you believe that your God is a God of peace, you would know that he desires everyone, every child on this place we call home to live in peace and harmony. That, or should I have a look whether your right hand and left hand is trying to chop each other and tried to be the Supreme Arm in the body?
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written by cheekhiaw, June 26, 2008 19:52:20
ONE DEITICAL LOGIC

What are you guys talking about?

There is only one deity, and everyone that chooses to be its followers are all nice people because that deity is a very nice deity.

And my deity is that deity.

All true followers of that one nice deity are brothers that do not kill or do anything bad.

If you read or talk about any such thing, it is because you all are bigots that take things out of context.

If those brothers really do commit such acts, then they are not true followers of the deity which is impossible given how great that nice deity is.

So, they must have justifiable reasons. If not why would such nice followers of such a nice deity do such un-nice things? It must be because the other parties made the wrong choices picking the wrong untrue deities and are not nice people.

But don't worry, the whole world will sooner or later follow that one deity and fight for it (without barbarism, of course) because that deity is the only true nice deity.

Anyone that cannot understand all this must be fools that cannot see great truths.

So simple logic also you all cannot understand...

xxx
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written by tmpeters, June 26, 2008 20:11:13
Pete, your post reminds me of Wilders’ Fitna, basically, a cut and paste of the doctrine juxtaposed with contemporary events worldwide.

The definitive feature of the movie was not 911, 117, Madrid or even the beheadings, but the little Arabian girl filled with hate towards Jews whom she labeled ‘sons of apes and pigs’. Notwithstanding that this infamous phrase is mentioned in the doctrine, it was comical at the same time terrifying to see the cute 3 year old on the telly spout her vitriol with such composure and innocence.

It is said Muslims in that part of the world are constantly exposed to Jew / Infidel bashing rhetoric but that said, this girl happens to be the daughter of a ‘moderate’ Egyptian actor. I certainly hope, in the little girl's case, it is an exception rather than norm.

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written by Thian, June 26, 2008 20:29:57
Agree to disagree. Move forward to work on those that we both agree, let agreed on how to handle the disagreements. Don’t get stuck and spiral downward in just disagreement only. Isn’t it wiser, you get to move forward and I get to move forward?

Exactly, look at some of you who are still stuck since last night till today over same issues. May I ask, have you really gained anything? None I am sure have convince each other any better.

Congratulations, perhaps you gained more hatred, disrespect and all that is bad. So I ask what your point is really to begin with. Who’s Good is the GOODEST. In fact, you have only gained BAD.

I rather be in a win win environment; then to see how much you lose more than me.

Malaysia is not the only country in the world. Those who have developed inclusive consciousness are moving forward day by day.

Look at Africa and Asia; we all have more or less the same starting point after the independence. If you go to the root of it is because those who are relatively more inclusive is shown to be the real winners.

Just open your eyes, be more aware and then cultivate God consciousness. Then what is seemingly important is actually trivial and limited by the size of your mind and your heart.

God from my experience is all about inclusiveness. By any reality, God is NOT exclusive.

Like RPK it takes two hands to clap.

It is very difficult because you have to realize we are all limited; recognizing the limitation then overcome it. Once you have, you will experience True God in his glory.

Thank you RPK for raising the consciousness of Malaysia.
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written by Angel, June 26, 2008 20:52:05
I believe that the religious barriers that seperate us is that we humans, as insignificant as the grains of the sand, want to stake a monopoly over God who is Almighty and Great.

Who are we to claim God for our own when in actual fact God is the God of all and master of the universe and we are his children? We belong to him, not he belongs to us. That being the case, why are we quarrelling among ourselves? Is it jealousy like in the case of Cain and Able? Or are we more intelligent and wiser today to grasp this fundamental truth.

There are many ways to go to Penang. Some take the train, others drive, others the bus. Ultimately, however, we do get there. Life is a journey to an ultimate goal. Let us each help each other to get to the Promised land. The choice is ours to make to hold hands and walk together or to push each other out of the way. We have the free will to choose. Choose wisely!
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written by raybeam, June 26, 2008 21:04:17
It does not take a rocket scientist to realise that the cancellation or as the Barisan government would lead us to believe that the postponement of the monorail and outer ring road projects have been made because of the lack of funds.

However, every right thinking Malaysians know only too well that this is an outright lie but rather to punish Penangnites for voting in the Pakatan Rakyat. I wonder how Lim Guan Eng and Co will react to this announcement.

From,
Alfred Ho.

Please visit my blog at http://alfredhomusic.********.com
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written by raybeam, June 26, 2008 21:10:42
Dear YB Nurul,

I sent out an email to YB last monday requesting your attention to a matter which is of grave concern to me as a blind individual but to which I have received no response from you up till now. Didn't the pakatan rakyat parties make a pledge during the run-up to the last general elections to attend to the problems of the downtrodden or has everything been conveniently forgotten. It is my fervent hope that the pakatan rakyat parties which includes PKR will live up to its promises and not follow the arrogant ways of the Barisan Nasional government. A change of heart from you to assist me would be greatly appreciated.

Yours faithfully,

Alfred Ho.

http://alfredhomusic.********.com
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written by Panca Indera, June 26, 2008 21:54:50
Thank you so much RPK for highlighting yet again where the majority of Muslims went wrong.
Here I would like to show one of the root causes and the remedy for those people that you mentioned. The truth is not difficult to see if you really want to. Please read on.
The events of Karbala reflect the collision of the good versus the evil, the virtuous versus the wicked, the collision of Imam Husain (the head of virtue) versus Yazid (the head of impiety). Al-Husain was a revolutionary person, a righteous man, the religious authority, the Imam of Muslim Ummah. As the representative of his grandfather Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), Imam Husain's main concern was to safeguard and protect Islam and guide fellow Muslims. On the other hand, the staying power of the rulers (Mu'awiya and his son Yazid) depended solely on the might of the sword. They used brute force to rule over the Muslim empire even by all possible illicit means.
Imam Husain never recognized Mu'awiya nor his followers. Before him Imam Ali (a.s.) had fought battles against Mu'awiya because Mu'awiya continuously violated the Islamic principles. Imam Al-Hasan (a.s.) had to swallow the bitter pill of making a peace agreement with Mu'awiya, in order to safeguard the security of the Ummah which was at stake. When Yazid son of Mu'awiya declared himself as a ruler over the Ummah, he demanded Imam Al-Husain's (a.s.) allegiance of loyalty. Imam Husain on his part flatly rejected Yazid's rule and behavior, for there was no way Yazid could represent Islam, it would be blasphemy. But Yazid, the tyrant ruler over the Ummah, was adamant in his demand, and tension between the two parties increased day by day.
Imam Husain understood, that giving allegiance of loyalty to Yazid would to jeopardize the survival of Islam. To safeguard and protect Islam, the Imam had to confront and collide with Yazid's rulership. irrespective of consequences. Since Yazid had ordered his commanders to seize the Imam's allegiance of loyalty at any cost, the commanders had to assemble a relatively large army, surrounding Imam Husain's camp in a desert called Karbala. There, they cut off the access to water. The camp consisted of Imam Husain, his family, friends, and companions, all of whom stood fast and firmly with him. These braves would rather face death for the noble cause of Islam, than submit to the outrageous tyranny and the un-Islamic ways of Yazid.
The Events at Karbala provided the lessons(if one wish to learned) between good and evil Islamic truths versus falsehood, right versus wrong, belief versus disbelief, the oppressed versus the oppressor, faith against brute force.
Karbala was confronting oppression, regardless off the cost. Thus, in Karbala, Al-Husain the 57 year old grandson of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), sacrificed his totality and all he had, for one goal. This goal was to let the truth triumph over falsehood eventually, and he did that brilliantly.
His goal was to foil the plan that Mu'awiya had developed for his son, Yazid, to establish a permanent Umayya rulership over the Muslim Ummah (by sacrificing the Islamic principles), but doing it in the name of Islam. Imam Husain succeeded in foiling this plan and exposed the disreputable nature of Umayya clan at the expense of his life.
Link: http://www.al-islam.org/short/Karbala.htm

Note: Looking at RPK’s SD, he is not far off from doing(in Principle) what Imam Hussain did 1400 years ago. Trust in HIM and no way will you lose, RPK.

note: let us see if PKR keeps its promise on people with special needs like Richard Ho's. At least acknowledge his e-mail please.
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written by Mag M, June 26, 2008 22:29:36
How can one not respect you RPK when you always speak with such wisdom and without fear. However, it worries me for your safety when you do so. One of my best friend is an Indian Muslim. We are very close, like sister. I am a Christian. We have no problems with each other coz we respect each others religion. She told me that it is unfortunate that man have twisted Islam and made it look ugly. She is a wonderful muslim to me. Never has hatred or any extremism against any other religion. I wish all of us can be like that. When we show love and understanding towards everyone, peace and great friendship can develop. I hope one day Malaysians will be like that.
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written by shamsul siahaan, June 26, 2008 23:14:11
written by Rainbowseahorse, June 26, 2008 | 16:39:07

shamsul siahaan says: "...Don’t be surprised if eventually they themselves would be fighting for and on the side of Islam".

One question please. Which side of Islam would these new converts be fighting for? As it is, in some of the mostly Muslim Arab countries, Pakistan, and Afganistan, our muslim brethern are killing/blowing up each other every day.

Brother Rainbowseahorse, Even during the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) there were people who claimed to be Muslims but acted contrary to Islamic practices. One even prayed regularly as makmum or follower in mass prayer right behind the Prophet but he was a "munafik", a pretender of the worst degree. The Karbala incidence (please read Panca Indera's writing above) is another demonstration of human failings, be it Muslim or non-Muslim. Hope this statement of mine would help clear some of your misconceptions.
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written by shamsul siahaan, June 26, 2008 23:35:36
Brother bakas, what I disagree with RPK's writing is the fact that he is putting the onus only upon the Muslims. Can't he on the same note also tell the non-Muslims they are equally responsible? Why do the Muslims always have to be on the defensive and explain their actions? The Americans who can be categorised as non-Muslims have been killing innocent people all over the world but nobody dared open their mouth to ask the Americans to explain their actions. That's my point of disagreement with RPK's posting.
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written by Rainbowseahorse, June 26, 2008 23:49:10
Also Saudara shamsul siahaan, I was refering to your statement:
"Their choice of god looks more powerful? That’s left to be seen. Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) and his small band of Muslims followers were chased out of Mecca but later, the very same people turned Muslims and welcomed them back. In the West, people become Muslims by the thousands every day. Don’t be surprised if eventually they themselves would be fighting for and on the side of Islam".

When these none Muslims convert to Islam, on which side of Islam (i.e which sect of Islam) would these new converts be fighting at? So, if they are in, say Iraq, who would these new converts be blowing up and killing? Wouldn't they still be considered as fighting for and on the side of Islam?
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written by akcc81, June 26, 2008 23:54:12
The best display of multi-racial harmony in the country is ONLY present in Sarawak and to a certain extent Sabah. Almost every extended family will comprise of various religious/cultural background as manifest during the different festivals. There is no hypocrisy at all, unlike in Peninsular Malaysia where it's only a display of superficial unity.

When MM ruled the country, he divided the people and hoped to conquer them by allowing the mushrooming of vernacular/religious schools and the politicising of Islam to his advantage. With that, every good thing eventually slided down the slope of corruption.

I remember my parents telling me of the beautiful old days when the Malays, Chinese and Indians could do things together genuinely. Mosques were not blaring away with the loudspeakers regardless of the people around its vicinity. Schools were not so divided like today - racially and religiously. English/missionary schools were able to successfully unite people of various races and religions. Unfortunately all these have to be done away with because they are apparently the legacy of Western Imperialism and Yellow Culture. The generation who remembers this era will eventually fade away and what's left of our country is something built by a dictatorial, insensitive leadership of the ***king BN administration.

Give the Malays/Muslims religious-schools/mosques and they are happy. Give the Chinese Chinese-schools/business opportunities and they are happy. Give the Indians Tamil-schools and they are happy. Mind you, this is the product of the BN government claiming to unite all races. Isn't this akin to how the British once ruled us??? Yet, they condemn the British for dividing and ruling. What a hypocrite!!! Judge for yourself and cast your vote wisely next time.

It's a good thing that UMNO hasn't set foot in Sarawak, unlike in Sabah. Now, the Sabahans have woken up realising that their unity has been eroded by the f***ing BN administration. Well, it's better late than never. SAPP, please save your state from further destruction and politicising of religions.

Now, some UMNO fanatics even want to copyright the word "Allah". The only thing I can say is that these are fools. If they truly treasure the truth and if only they have the mental capacity to find out the truth, they won't be challenging that the word "Allah" is exclusive for Islam. These are hypocrites, devils-in-the-making who want to dominate the lives of others, giving no regard for other races and religions. They are not practising the true Islam.

I've met the UMNO people and the PAS people. To be honest, cross my heart, I have to admit that the UMNO people are the more racist lot. The PAS people that I've met are really nice people who do not talk about ketuanan Melayu like the UMNOputras. Sadly, UMNO through its control of the mainstream media managed to tarnish the reputation of PAS. But the people are not stupid as before anymore because of RPK's constant updates.

Thanks, RPK.
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written by Rainbowseahorse, June 27, 2008 00:03:04
These are the sides of Islam that deeply and profoundly disturbe me. I believe in Allah the Great Almighty with all my heart and soul..and then I realise that my Christians (no Jews friends, so cannot say Jewish here)brothers believing in the same Almighty..the Creator of the universe & Earth and all that's in it, and all things that was, that is, and that is yet to come, and who makes all things possible, who gives and who takes...I just cannot fathom why there should be a great divide in our faith! Why do so many of our immans preach such hatred against these none Muslims brothers who believe in our same God? If we know that to be wrong, why do we chose to remain silent and in that act of silence perpetuate that wrong?

Do you know that I have been meaning to ask our learned teachers about my questions but am afraid of the consequences of radical retributions? Is it wrong in Islam to ask when in doubt and to be given logical and acceptable explainations instead of the usual and expected "Do not questions what has been given by Allah" doctrine?
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written by akcc81, June 27, 2008 00:13:04
shamsul siahaan wrote: what I disagree with RPK's writing is the fact that he is putting the onus only upon the Muslims. Can't he on the same note also tell the non-Muslims they are equally responsible?

Hello shamsul, RPK is talking in the Malaysian context la...

You asked why must Muslims always have to be defensive and explain their actions.

The answer is, you don't have to be defensive, but you (in particular you) have already put on a defensive mode the moment you read RPK's article. This is due to your faulty training from whoever - typical. You don't even want to listen and examine carefully what RPK has written. You are more concerned about your defensive comment in putting the blame on others.

In the Malaysian context, would you mind telling me how are the non-Muslims equally responsible? First of all, have you even been to a church, temple or gurdwara, if indeed you are not oblivious to the existence of such places of worship in Malaysia. Which of these "would dare declare the Muslims as enemies who must be exterminated". RPK said none and he's right because he spoke with evidence. He's obviously visited these places before. You probably haven't because it's a sin for you to set foot in such places, isn't it?

So, shamsul siahaan, before you open your gab, please get your facts right and do not think that only you as a Muslim can be sensitive. The non-Muslims can be sensitive too, but they are just oppressed (by ISA & Sedition Act) in this country to express their sensitivities.
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written by Heaven8402, June 27, 2008 00:21:00
I, a non-Muslim always believed that when it comes to friendship, you can always trust your Malay-Muslim friends. I hope the Malay-Muslims can have this type of trust to their non-Muslims friends as well.
Some Malay-Muslims like to use the word "babi" when they're scolding ie. "gila-babi" or "..babi betul la awak ni". I think this is a very inconsiderate statement! As a friend, we should not use this word "babi"(for Chinese) or "lembu"(for Malays) or "kambing"(for Indians). Parents should not instill anti-Malays, anti-Chinese, anti-Indians mentality to their childrens. Parents must teach their childrens to love all mankind irrespective of colors: black, white, brown, blue, green so on and so forth.
"Bermuafakat Membawa Berkat", are we practising it??!!
Peace to All Malaysians!!!!!! smilies/smiley.gif smilies/smiley.gif smilies/smiley.gif
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written by Rukk, June 27, 2008 00:44:43
Being a muslim has taught me how to love and care for others .. INCLUDING NON-MUSLIMS .. May Allah forgive those who misuses the faith of Islam for their own personal agenda ... I pray for a better tomorrow for all races and hope we unite as one regardless of race and religion .. Remember !!! ... United we stand .. divided we fall !!! ... I can only hope and beg with the permission and blessings from almighty Allah .. Please bless my home ... MALAYSIA !!!

Muslim-chinese
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written by Rainbowseahorse, June 27, 2008 00:59:12
Ok, to be fair, Christianity in Europe was quite brutal in the period known as the dark ages where countless were persecuted and burnt, hanged,drown, and with other beastly murders all in the name of religion. Some of these perpetrators were even make into saints. And why did these Christian leaders carried out these murderous acts? For power, wealth, and because they can. That what happens when a religion grows too strong and intertwinged with governance. Christianity came to their senses when the Christians themselves says "enough is enough".
Islam is strong now because of oil wealth that lends strength to over zealous Muslims. With ample finances, Muslims can arm and organize themselves better to literally cower none Muslims with threats of violence. I wonder what would happen then if all the none Muslims decide to unite and say "enough is enough" and come to us Muslims on a united front! Under that senario, I really do not know on which side should I be. On my religion side, I am to be on my Muslim brethren side..but in my heart, I know that war is wrong and quite senseless and most certainly not the wishes of Allah the Great Almighty. And I fear, given the present troubled world situation, that day has to come, and I can only pray to my Allah the Almighty to grant me wisdom, strength, patience, and knowledge.
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written by Rainbowseahorse, June 27, 2008 01:07:04
akcc81 you forgot or do not know one very important difference that can be found in Sarawak (Lutong, Miri to be precise)! The Mosque and Church share the same fence smack next to each other. Also along the old road into Miri town, the Chinese and Muslims cemetries face each other. That, my brothers, is indeed a very fine example of tolerance, understanding, and respect of and for each other's religion in Life and in Death!
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written by Panca Indera, June 27, 2008 02:35:51
Why the Intolerant?
Read on to understand.

An important aspect within Shi'ism is that it appears to have more tolerant toward the mystical, spiritual and philosophical aspects of religion. Although they have been persecuted by the Sunnis for centuries, research by scholars of Islam is making increasingly evident that they have made tremendously important contributions to the intellectual heritage of Islam.

When reading about Islam, you will see also names of other 'sects' or 'schools' etc. But often these are connected with political issues or intepretational issues related to Islamic law etc.

Within sunni Islam, one often sees distinctions being made between the so-called four orthodox law schools. In the course of the 8-10th centuries Muslim scholars were debating the formation of the body of Islamic law or Sharia. Eventually there were four 'schools' which were recognized as orthodox and valid interpreters of Islamic law, although there were differences in accent and severity.

The oldest is the Hanafi school, which is quite moderate and allows room for individual opinion of scholars. Then there was the Maliki school, which paid specific attention to information that could be derived from the so-called traditions of the Prophet (words and acts of Muhammad) as a source in addition to the Qur'an. These traditions were used for analogous reasoning to take decisions. The Hanbali school is rather strict and severe and holds that only a literalist adherence to Qur'an and traditions of the prophet can lead to valid intepretations. The Shafi'i school is usually recognized as very sophisticated in that it tries to find a synthesis for all these different approaches.

Wahhabis. This is a very strict Hanbali-inspired doctrine that emerged in 18th century Arabia and which has succeeded in taking political power in what is now Saudi Arabia. Backed by oil wealth it has become enormously influetial since the 1970s and 1980s, although it must be regarded as rather extremist in its severity, which makes one wonder what is the appeal it has to so many Muslims, who come from more tolerant traditions. It is probably a combination of political power, money, and clever PR that has made them so successful.
Ref: http://en.allexperts.com/q/Islam-947/sects-2.htm

Note: I’am not trying to hog or spam the blog. Just to help give a possible answer to RPK’s comments on the extremism and schism.
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written by Thian, June 27, 2008 03:06:52
Traits that distinguishes us unique is Compassion and Aware Consciousness. Lost of humanity is lost of either of the above.

Traits that distinguish Good is Inclusiveness. Lost of Goodness is lost of the above.

Lost of God is lost of all of the above.

With these deeply rooted innate in the conscience then God is always with you.

Then you transcend the need to become a Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Sikhs ... because you already all those; to be with God.

You transcend the exclusiveness; free of interpretation by those with are limited by their mind and their heart. You will be free and God is there with you and always.
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written by wYke, June 27, 2008 03:31:26
nice article by Dr. Khalid.

Actually, those sermons of hate not only affects those who are inside the enclosed area, but also to anyone within 5km radius or so.

I remembered that when I was a little kid, I had once asked my parents: Where is it from? How come from so far? Why need to be so loud? What does it means? Why 5 times a day? Why on Friday so many cars and can just double-tripple-quadraple park on roads? How come so many people still go inside when it's so loudly broadcasted, can't they stay at home to participate instead? Or is it because not many people got car to drive there to participate, so that's why so loud and so far, in order to help those people to participate inside their house?

The non-muslims has been listening to it for all their life as long as they live nearby a mosque. Yet has never questioned, never asked, never complain nor cause disturbance nor do anything at all. Anyone would give respect to anyone's religion and beliefs.

These were just quarter of my childhood questions. There were so many questions in my head, my parents did not answer me, they didn't made up any reason, they just simple don't know or rather there isn't anything to say about. Even now I don't understand too, but I've never asked my Muslim friends. If I have kids, and if one day they asked me those same questions, I'll do the same as my parent - give respect to people's religion and beliefs and ask my kids to continue with whatever they are doing.
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written by cheekhiaw, June 27, 2008 11:11:42
Loud super arrogance imposing upon others does not need explaining.

It is the basest of animal instincts...

xxx
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written by mucking fuddled, June 27, 2008 11:22:04
There is no god but man himself
Fear no god but man himself
Man created god to put fear in another man
Man created god to manipulate another man
Man created god to control another man
Man wrote the best sellers of their times and other man was sold
Man will eventually create his own destruction PLAYING GOD
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written by fandi, June 27, 2008 11:24:07
Story Time.

Hello everybody, Time we relax our mind before we start to screw up everybody or somebody. This old song is the partner to JerryLewis, can anybody guess his name. I totally forgotten his name.

Where religion is concern , this is a discussion not to be taken seriously. Is anyone aware that all the place of worship has similarities. Any idea anyone.?? The Churches, Mosques, Buddhist temples, Angkor Watt, Pyramids, Aztec, and what nots.They all merge to one point on the axis right to the top. So in one glance it all add up to one god.

Point number 2, this point of axis also indicates what??, a Rocket. Is it not possible that religion is brought about by aliens when they landed , and what is left by the rocket they had no fuel to fly back and the rockets rot to dust and the people use the rocket design as a place of worship to hope for one day to travel back homeland., the story end in a sad tale as no more rockets landed after that, only the flying saucers came and they cannot recognize it. The aliens have advance so much so that the brethren earth people cannot recognize them because of the infighting among themselves, yes infighting because of religion. Where they failed to understand the apex of the rockets. And the building they built the symbols all forgotten.

Nice story for everyone to digest
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written by sampat, June 27, 2008 11:33:20
The concept of Golden Rule is a self evident and a universal concept. All the people of the world, irrespective of their religion, agree with this principle. Muslims are the only exception. Everyone knows doing evil is bad and ends do not justify the means. Muslims are the only people who believe good and bad are relative and they can do evil if the end justifies it. This makes Muslims very dangerous and unpredictable.They are not bound by the Golden Rule. Kindness to Muslims will not be interpreted as a sign of goodness and friendship that needs to be reciprocated but rather as the sign of weakness that must be paid back with cruelty.
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written by Debbie, June 27, 2008 11:51:15
Before we do any clapping...there may be an issue of UTMOST importance. It concerns the definition (Article 160) of the Malay and the connection with Muslim/Islam.

Think Carefully ... there's a paradox that everyone missed or skips.

1. RELIGION is USED to classify status

2. Can change ethnicity by changing religion (inference)

No other nation does this!!! Religious belief should NOT, CANNOT be use to define an ethnicity or tribe or nationality. Unless of course there no freedom or choice on religion. Is there?

Hence, someone MUST correct or remove this fundamental flaw.

So, we have Chinese Malays (Kelantan is just south of China), Indian Malays, Middle Eastern Malays, Indonesian Malays and leave out the true Malays - the aborigines who don't profess Islam.

Poor Chinese and Indian (& others)immigrants who MAY be here longer than some 'Malays'. Switch religion and you can be much better off! Few generations down the road and still fighting for a place. Nonsense!

Done on purpose? By TDM? Perpetuated by the politicians who cannot be that dumb!

Reflect on this:

In Malaysia, a Parrot that barks like a dog is a Dog. It has all the legal rights of a TRUE Dog. If it dies, it will be buried as a dog.
If the Dog-Parrot stops barking like a dog, the dog community decides that it should be a Dog still.


Isn't this why a court of law is required to preside over a person's religious belief? Shouldn't the person in question know what he/she wants?

My point is this - are you sure you are a Malay? ...not a Bugis?... or a Chinese-turn-Malay of 100 years ago...

Am I suggesting a 'Witch-hunt'? No! Just hoping that this observation meets with some more enlightened Malaysian.

With awareness, comes understanding and then (with the majority votes behind you) CHANGE...

Shalom.
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written by BOB007, June 27, 2008 12:22:06
RPK i really salute ur artical.. u are truth muslim practis and undestand about islam....u teach & make clear what is reall islam to non -muslim... i as non-muslim clearly understand what is reall islam compare what is really paractis in malaysia.
what is write by RPK is truth to all my Muslim friends if u realy practis what RPK write in this artical... we as non- muslim & muslim can be know as malaysian people not divided by race!!!!!!
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written by Panca Indera, June 27, 2008 12:38:20
Salam
I copied part of Muslims First Lady, the Prophet's daughter Fatima speech at a Mosque claiming her right to the Inheritance that was denied by the caliph Abu Bakar.
This part is about duty and responsibility of a muslim. second part later Inshallah'

(Fatima now directed duties and obligation of Muslims:
SURELY YOU ARE ALLAH’S SLAVES AT HIS COMMAND AND PROHIBITION; YOU ARE THE BEARERS OF HIS RELIGION AND REVELATION; YOU ARE ALLAH’S TRUSTED ONES WITH YOURSELVES AND HIS MESSENGERS TO THE NATION;

AMONG YOU DOES HE HAVE RIGHTEOUS AUTHORITY, A COVENANT HE BROUGHT UNTO YOU, AND AN HEIR HE LEFT TO GUARD YOU; THAT IS THE ELOQUENT BOOK OF ALLAH, THE TRUTHFUL QURAN, THE BRILLIANT LIGHT, THE SHINING BEAM; IT’S INSIGHTS ARE INDISPUTABLE; IT’S SECRETS ARE REVEALED; IT’S INDICATIONS ARE MANIFEST, AND ITS FOLLOWERS ARE BLESSED BY IT (THE QURAN) WHICH LEADS IT’S ADHERENTS TO GOODWILL, AND HEARING IT LEADS TO SALVATION, WITH IT ARE THE BRIGHT DIVINE AUTHORITIES ACHIEVED, HIS MANIFEST EVIDENCE RECOGNISED; HIS SATISFYING PROOF MADE APPARENT, HIS PERMISSION GRANTED, AND HIS LAWS WRITTEN. SO ALLAH MADE BELIEF TO BE A PURIFICATION FOR YOU FROM POLYTHEISM;

HE MADE PRAYER--AN EXALTATION FOR YOU FROM DECEIT;
ALMS--A PURIFICATION OF THE SOUL AND A (CAUSE OF) GROWTH IN SUBSISTENCE;
FASTING--AN IMPLANTATION OF DEVOTION;
PILGRIMAGE--A CONSTRUCTION OF RELIGION;
JUSTICE-- A HARMONY OF THE HEARTS;
OBEY US (AHLUL-BAIT)--MANAGEMENT OF THE NATION. OUR LEADERSHIP (AHLUL BAIT)--SAFEGUARD FROM DISUNITY;
JIHAD--A STRENGTHENING OF ISLAM;
PATIENCE--A HELPING COURSE FOR DESERVING (DIVINE) REWARD;
ENJOINING GOODNESS--PUBLIC WELFARE;
KINDNESS TO THE PARENTS--A SAFEGUARD FROM WRATH;
MAINTAINING CLOSE RELATIONS WITH ONES KIN--A CAUSE FOR LONGER LIFE AND MULTIPLYING IN THE NUMBER OF DESCENDANTS;
RETRIBUTION (QASAS)--FOR SPARING BLOOD (SOULS);
FULFILMENT OF VOWS--SUBJECTING ONESELF TO MERCY;
COMPLETION OF WEIGHTS AND MEASURES--A CAUSE FOR PREVENTING THE NEGLECT OF OTHERS’ RIGHTS;
One who in inclined to under-weigh or undervalue goods in order to profit, denying others their due right will, no doubt, be inclined to perpetrate greater crimes against the rights of others. So it is necessary to maintain peoples’ rights and deal with them honestly and fairly to preserve the sanctity of the individuals and of the Islamic society we live in.
FORBIDDANCE OF DRINKING ALCOHOL--AN EXALTATION FROM ATROCITY;
AVOIDING SLANDER--A VEIL FROM CURSE;
Islam requires that the dignity of all Muslims be respected. Therefore, slandering and defaming fellow Muslims is a crime punishable in this world and the hereafter. Any person who defames and accuses an honourable man or woman of a licentious act without presenting four witnesses is liable to eighty whippings of the lash and is cursed by Allah.
ABANDONING THEFT--A REASON FOR DESERVING CHASTITY;
Chastity is often only related to that which is concerned with sexuality, whereas it can include the many other organs and limbs of our body, such as chastity of the hand which remains pure so long as it refrains from abominable acts such as stealing. The hand is a valuable asset as long as it remains trustworthy, so much so that compensation under Islamic law for an accidental or intentional cutting of the hand is five hundred gold dinars which equal about 1750 grams of gold. The value of this asset and it’s owner become worthless should the trust put into it be betrayed.
“THEREFORE, FEAR ALLAH AS HE SHOULD BE FEARED, AND DIE NOT EXCEPT IN A STATE OF ISLAM, OBEY ALLAH IN THAT WHICH HE HAS COMMANDED YOU TO DO AND THAT WHICH HE HAS FORBIDDEN, FOR SURELY THOSE WHO TRULY FEAR ALLAH AMONG HIS SERVANTS, ARE THOSE WITH KNOWLEDGE”.

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written by Panca Indera, June 27, 2008 12:49:36
Continue form the first part.
THEREFORE, THIS, BY ALLAH, IS THE GREAT AFFLICTION, AND THE GRAND CALAMITY; THERE IS NOT AN AFFLICTION, WHICH IS THE LIKE OF IT, NOR WILL THERE BE A SUDDEN MISFORTUNE (AS SURPRISING AS THIS). THE BOOK OF ALLAH--EXCELLENT IN PLEASING HIM--ANNOUNCED IN THE COURTYARDS (OF YOUR HOUSES) IN THE PLACE WHERE YOU SPEND YOUR EVENING AND MORNINGS, A CALL, A CRY, A RECITATION, AND (VERSES) IN ORDER: IT HAD PREVIOUSLY COME UPON HIS PROPHETS AND MESSENGERS; (FOR IT IS) A DECREE FINAL, AND A PREDESTINATION FULFILLED: ‘MOHAMMAD IS NOT BUT AN APOSTLE: MANY WERE THE APOSTLES THAT PASSED AWAY BEFORE HIM. IF HE DIED OR WAS SLAIN WILL YE THEN TURN BACK ON YOUR HEELS? IF ANY DID TURN BACK ON HIS HEELS - NOT THE LEAST HARM WILL HE DO TO ALLAH, BUT ALLAH (ON THE OTHER HAND) WILL SWIFTLY REWARD THOSE WHO (SERVE HIM) WITH GRATITUDE’;

O’YOU PEOPLE OF REFLECTION; WILL I BE USURPED THE INHERITANCE OF MY FATHER WHILE YOU HEAR AND SEE ME? (AND WHILE) YOU ARE SITTING AND GATHERED AROUND ME? YOU HEAR MY CALL, AND ARE INCLUDED IN THE (NEWS OF THE) AFFAIR?
(BUT) YOU ARE NUMEROUS AND WELL EQUIPPED! (YOU HAVE) THE MEANS AND THE POWER, AND THE WEAPONS AND THE SHIELDS. YET, THE CALL REACHES YOU BUT YOU DO NOT ANSWER; THE CRY COMES TO YOU BUT YOU DO NOT COME TO HELP? (THIS) WHILE YOU ARE CHARACTERISED BY STRUGGLE, KNOWN FOR GOODNESS AND WELFARE, THE SELECTED GROUP (WHICH HAS CHOSEN), AND THE BEST ONES CHOSEN BY THE MESSENGER FOR US AHLUL-BAIT;

WILL YOU NOT FIGHT PEOPLE WHO VIOLATED THEIR OATH? PLOTTED TO EXPEL THE APOSTLES AND BECAME AGGRESSIVE BY BEING THE FIRST (TO ASSAULT) YOU? DO YOU FEAR THEM? NAY IT IS ALLAH WHOM YE SHOULD MORE JUSTLY FEAR, IF YOU BELIEVE?
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written by akcc81, June 27, 2008 13:37:41
Rainbowseahorse asked:

Do you know that I have been meaning to ask our learned teachers about my questions but am afraid of the consequences of radical retributions? Is it wrong in Islam to ask when in doubt and to be given logical and acceptable explainations instead of the usual and expected "Do not questions what has been given by Allah" doctrine?

The answer to your question:
It ain't wrong to ask the questions you have been meaning to ask, but provided the person you ask the question to is one who's practising true Islam and a truly learned teacher. The way I look at it these days, there aren't many who fit this criterion anymore. Most of them are using Islam as a facade of holiness hoping to deceive the innocent, by so doing propagating their personal political agendas. A simple guide to gauge who is not upholding the genuine faith is the person who tells you "Do not question what has been given by Allah" (excuse me? given by Allah or given by you). Such a person attempts to use Islam to silence those who do not agree to his personal ideology, which he deems detrimental to those who have espoused his ideas. From such people, may I urge you to withdraw yourself.

During the caliphate era in the Middle East, what made Islam attractive to the point that it was acceptable in Europe was that Islam encouraged learning by asking of questions. That was when the Europeans came to the Middle Eastern universities to learn. Why must Muslims be afraid of asking questions today for the sake of learning? Is it because of ISA, Sedition Act or merely the screwed-up mentality of some so-called clerics.

On another matter, if truly UMNO claimed never to politicise Islam, then why if a Chinese/Indian man were to marry a Malay (Muslim) lady, HIS offsprings are considered Malay and Muslim - (half)Bumiputra??? Being considered a Muslim I can understand, but why also a Malay (FYI, the world has got more Chinese/Indian Muslims). Apart from adat perpatih, which was practised only in N.Sembilan, where else in the world does inheritance pass from a mother to a child, rather than from a father to a child? Isn't the order of the world for inheritance of a child's race to follow that of his/her father?

Alright, if that's acceptable, then how about when a Malay-Muslim man marries a Chinese/Indian lady, shouldn't the same rule also apply. The offsprings should then follow the race of the mother. My point is, if it's not already obvious, what UMNO is preaching about fairness/equality is not seen in how they practise it. There's so much inconsistencies in their ideology. This is a classical case of 1 1 not equals to 2.
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written by Panca Indera, June 27, 2008 16:31:10
To answer RPK comments on Muslims lack of full understanding on their religion is quiet simple. They do not know the full history and truth as taught by the Quran and the Ahlul bait. Rather they depend on mis-informed, prejudiced, biased, hypocritical, un-educated scholars who doesn’t know head from tail. examples.

1.How many knows the true event at Karbala where 72 people(men, women and children were murdered or captured), with their leader, the Prophet’s grandson Hussain beheaded and his head taken to Damascus to be displayed on a platter for Yazid(eternal curse to him)?
2.How many knows about the battle of Camel (first Muslim rebellion) where Aisah (wife of the prophet) lead an armed rebellion that killed more than 10,000 muslims soldiers including hundreds, of hafizes.

3.How many know that the third caliph of Islam ordered the burning of hundreds if not thousand of copies of Quran because they do not conform to the Official version. Other versions were not tolerated.
4. How many knows that at the battle of Siffin 10,000 more Muslims died fighting each other in the first civil war and hundreds more Hafizes perished.
5.How many knows that the prophets own daughter was deprived of her inheritance by the first Caliph even though it was legally hers.
6.
Five is enough for now, there are hundreds of other events that Muslims do not care for or unaware or choose to ignore for the simple reason they do not care for the real truth but rather be contented with what they presently know. It is “safer” to be with the status quo rather than change as change can bring it’s own problems. Now how do you expect Muslims to excel?
Notes: How mant knows and acknowledge the events of the "Dogs of Haw'ab"

According to sources, on the way to Basra in Iraq, the rebel army received news that Ali had come out of Madina in their pursuit. They decided to leave the main road and proceed to Basra through a different route. When they passed through the valley of Haw'ab, the dogs of the village surrounded Ayesha's camel, barking loudly. She was immediately worried and asked for the name of the place. When she was told it was Haw'ab, she was shocked and she cried, "Alas! Alas! I am the wretched woman of Haw'ab. The prophet of Allah had already warned me against this."
She was reminded of what Umm Salama had told her:
"I also remind you that you and I were with the prophet of Allah and he said to us: 'Which one of you will be the rider of the trained camel, at whom the dogs of Haw'ab will bark, and she will have deviated from the right path?' We said: 'We seek refuge from Allah and his prophet from that'. He touched your back and said: 'Don't be that one, O Humayra.'" Aisha said: "I remember that."

May Allah forgive or punish me if I am lying
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written by fireduck, June 27, 2008 17:24:37
Wah, after so many days, this thread still runs strong!

Arguments, arguments. But ultimately, it's still your life and between you and your 'Maker'. There is good in each and everyone, intrinsically. But it's society as a whole that inculcate the prejudices into us. And with the world growing ever smaller by the day, the 'outside' influence become chokingly strong.

Have you ever stop for a while to wonder, "Is this my own thought creation, or is this thought a reflection of someone else' bias"? If you do that, you will find that most often what first comes to your mind is actually someone else' opinion, one which we 'picked' up along the way (could be parents, teachers, friends, colleagues, or newspapers, CNN, TV dramas, movies, etc).

But is it all that important to you? Someone in Denmark drew a caricature of the Prophet, and someone over at the side of the world reacted strongly and kills or gets killed. It's not worth it, as the family will still have to go on living.

Religion is too personal a thing to be easily influenced by a third party. No disrespect to the pastors, the imams and the priests, but they are human too. What they have are just more concentrated learning in the respective religious books and practices. Yes, they can help enlighten you to a certain extend with regards to the set of beliefs and practices, but beyond the basics, most are just their personal interpretations. Ultimately, when the time comes it's YOU that has to sit down with your God.

Again, no disrespect. Just my personal opinions.
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written by JFR, June 27, 2008 17:58:09
written by shamsul siahaan,"In the West, people become Muslims by the thousands every day."

Well,let me add,the churches in Europe end up being museums and even mosques.If it is true what you say,one explanation is that there is basically a postmodern,post Christian society in the West(so,kindly refrain from equating the west with Christian)in which there is vacuum waiting to be filled. I suppose when people see the commitment of Muslims to their religion and their willingness to give so much to their faith,it will attract them instead of the wishy-washiness and insipidness of the church in response to 300 years of relentless Post-Enlightenment(not the Buddhist variety)attacks on Christianity.These so-called Christians have basically inherited their religion but not the faith of their fathers.They did not really understand or know Christianity at all. So,the hint of triumphalism in your writing is as usual,a bit of propaganda that Christianity is somewhat inferior to Islam. As usual,also it is the people and not Christ at fault.
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written by mucking fuddled, June 27, 2008 18:36:40
Good one fireduck,I agree with you abt all the arguments and arguments thing, but abt 'you and your maker thing?' Nah!

To all the scholars,laymen,clerics,historians,wiseguys and those that are trying their best to quote from this passage or that of their respective holy books,who are still trying to interpret,learn and be enlighten,i feel sad really,some of us have tried to move on to explore the outer frontiers of space,for all we know,one day we could even touch down in another planet.

1st religion that touches down gets to play god....all over again

like you said fireduck, no disrespect,just my own opinions
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written by inoi, June 27, 2008 19:33:38
Within fews day,the influx of middle east tourist will leave some mix reaction for me as they give positive and negative for the country,they spending give much money to us but they also bring negative,one arab guy talk to my friend this morning,he ask how many muslim in this country,so my friend said around 70% and non-muslim 30%.he said no good and this 30% bring problem to your country,my friend(muslim)said we live and respect each other,that's why our country progress so fast and peaceful.so i told that arab guy the islam never teach hatred,only people like you who like to instill hate among as a malaysian. smilies/smiley.gif smilies/smiley.gif smilies/smiley.gif
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written by Angel, June 27, 2008 22:01:33
I believe that ultimately there is only one God that rules the earth and we all belong to him. We, however, try to selfishly claim this God for our own. We should instead regard and consider each human, no matter of what colour or creed, as our brothers and sisters of this one God. We have no monopoly over him but he has monopoly over us.

If we can be openminded enough to grasp this fundamental truth we would treat each other with more respect and live in greater harmony. Heaven is big enough for all of us and has no expiry date. If we lead a good life and not replaced our God with false Gods of this earth like money, riches, status we will get there!!
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written by shamsul siahaan, June 27, 2008 23:18:12
written by mucking fuddled, June 27, 2008 | 18:36:40
Good one fireduck,I agree with you abt all the arguments and arguments thing, but abt 'you and your maker thing?' Nah!

To all the scholars,laymen,clerics,historians,wiseguys and those that are trying their best to quote from this passage or that of their respective holy books,who are still trying to interpret,learn and be enlighten,i feel sad really,some of us have tried to move on to explore the outer frontiers of space,for all we know,one day we could even touch down in another planet.

1st religion that touches down gets to play god....all over again

like you said fireduck, no disrespect,just my own opinions


We aren’t at all trying to play god. No, nothing of that kind. Now, just food for thought, it is everyday knowledge that the thumb print of every person, dead or alive is never the same with another human. Imagine, billions of humans now still living, no two person have identical thumb prints. That Guy who created thumb prints for human beings must be Real Great. Like to make a guess Who He is? Another simple game. Try observing sunrise for seven days consecutively. Every other day would be different. That Guy who created sunrise must be really Super! Try making a guess Who He is.
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written by franco, June 28, 2008 00:57:02
It is true that the teaching of Islam has nothing wrong. But te ractice of the some of the Muslims are wrong. In Islam there is a group of Muslims called as Munafiqun (hypocrates. These are actualy the Nuslims who are givin the bad image of Islam.These are the groups that will be severely dealt with by Allah in the next world.
These are the groups who would confused the nonmuslim about Islam.

To all my fellow Muslims brothers and sisters, I called upon all of you to be careful and not to be falled into the group of "MUNAFIQUN" and be wary of them all the time. Learn about Islam deeper so that you would recognized them and not be falled into their group.
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written by akcc81, June 28, 2008 01:58:00
Shamsul Siahaan wrote:
RPK’s comments are not necessarily correct in all aspects. I’m been reading a number of his articles on the Muslims and they are noticeably critical of the Muslims in general. My pointing out the misdeeds of the non-Muslim powerful nations is by no means a defensive act. Asking them to be more rational instead of painting Muslims as desperadoes bent on causing havoc by blowing themselves up is certainly not defensive. I have refrained from mentioning the horror of Jewish massacre of Muslims in Palestine, Syria and Lebanon. But had I done that, is it demonstrative of my being defensive? I have also refrained from mentioning the tortures inflicted by the Spanish Christian marauders upon Muslim territories, which they eventually conquered and turned them into The Philippines. Does that amount to being defensive?

My reply:
RPK was generally critical of the Muslims, yes, but CONSTRUCTIVELY. If you cannot see this, that's because you are defensive unconsciously. "painting Muslims as desperadoes bent on causing havoc by blowing themselves" HELLO??? Did anyone fabricate this or is this something we hear about in the news almost everyday? How else can one be more rational than to paint the truth verbatim? Mind you, I have also refrained from mentioning the horrible Taliban Muslims massacre of the innocent Afghanistanis. Plus, if you got your facts right, the Muslim marauders conquered the Hindu territories of SEA and turned them into Malaysia and Indonesia; and the Christian territories in the Mediterranean (FYI, Hinduism, Buddhism & Christianity came before Islam - want to refute this fact and change history as well?). Think there ain't anyone who got tortured? I doubt it.


Shamsul Siahaan wrote:
Now, let me tell you my general impressions of adherents of the above-mentioned religions, in the Malaysian context, of course. As human beings and knowing one another, our relationship is on the best of terms. But I also knew, at that point of time, we Muslims were way, way behind them in terms of economy and standard of living. For as long we are way down, they are quite willing to accept us. But now that things have changed with the Malay/Muslims having achieved some form of economic progress, they (the Malays/Muslims) are now being looked upon with suspicion. This is compounded with the fact that political power is seen to be with the Malays, at least seemingly. The non-Muslims definitely are not willing to admit this but this could be sensed, anyway

My reply:
"our relationship is on the best of terms" because one party compromised and if you care to look at the bigger picture, only one party has to compromise in our country and you very well know which party that is (I ain't talking about political party). Nobody is looking at the Malay Muslims with suspicion. This is your own perception because you are suffering from inferiority complex. As you said, the non-Muslims do no admit it, you only SENSED it. That's because ONLY you have the right to be sensitive in this country under the unwritten law, nobody else has it as it's a crime for the non-Muslims to be sensitive.
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written by akcc81, June 28, 2008 02:00:00
Shamsul Siahaan wrote:
Back to the church thing, in my nine years of schooling, the Christians have never bothered about using word Allah. It has always been God, Jesus the Son and the Holy Ghost. But now they are clamouring to use Allah! I just don’t understand it. How do we relate this to the inter-communal relationship that we insincerely have been bandying around?

My reply:
You are truly ignorant and I can't blame you cos you've never attended Cathecism classes. How would you know that they've never used the word Allah? Just go to a church in Sarawak and Sabah, and find out for yourself how they addressed God there. It's not that you don't understand, it's just that you refused to understand, thinking that if others were to use the word Allah, it's a challenge to the supremacy of Islam. BTW, there aren't many churches in the Peninsula which use Malay as a medium of instruction like in Swak and Sabah. Of course they never bothered using the word Allah. What kind of lame argument have you got? I can't believe I'm even wasting my time replying to your arguments.

Those who used the word Allah in the church has been using it since time immemorial. They didn't just start clamouring to use it NOW as you ignorantly claimed. What happened NOW was that minister's sudden decision to ban its use in the church? Why only NOW??? Before that, nobody even cared!

The word Allah (Arabic) and Eloah (Hebrew) came from the same root word and most of the Middle Eastern languages (Hebrew included) use words of almost the same pronunciation because they derived from the same root word. Christianity obviously came from the Mid-East (only fools would deny this). So what's wrong if Christians use any of these words to refer to God? The Muslims in Saudi Arabia did not copyright the word Allah, so why must UMNO??? Ain't this to incite the feelings of the less-informed Muslims against the non-Muslims to gain political mileage?

UMNO wants to create a false feeling among the Muslims that their religion is under threat, but the Constitution does not even allow the Malays to embrace other religions. I don't see how is the position of the Malays/Muslims being threatened by the simple use of the word Allah. Anwar would tell you the truth. He's no less a Muslim than the UMNO hypocrites, perhaps even a better Muslim than they.
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written by shamsul siahaan, June 28, 2008 10:06:35
written by akcc81, June 28, 2008 | 01:58:00
Mind you, I have also refrained from mentioning the horrible Taliban Muslims massacre of the innocent Afghanistanis. Plus, if you got your facts right, the Muslim marauders conquered the Hindu territories of SEA and turned them into Malaysia and Indonesia; and the Christian territories in the Mediterranean (FYI, Hinduism, Buddhism & Christianity came before Islam - want to refute this fact and change history as well?). Think there ain't anyone who got tortured? I doubt it.
======================================================= =======
I don’t want to be drawn deeply into arguments over this Taliban massacring innocent Afghans. Suffice for me to mention briefly that Afghanistan has undergone through a number of serious tribulations. Under the influence of the then powerful Soviet Union, Afghanistan was ruled by stooges of the Communist regime. America wanted to exert its influence after noticing the declining power of the Soviet Union. It was the Americans who created the Taliban movement, providing it with military and financial support as part of the plan to oust the Soviets. Once the Soviet U was chased out of Afghanistan, the sneaky Americans began to abandon the Talibans and install their puppets to protect their dubious interests. The Talibans certainly knew that they have been betrayed by the Americans and retaliated. One of the action taken was, as you say, massacring of the “innocent” Afghans The Talibans justify their actions because the “innocent Afghans” are “turn-coats” – they are “munafiks” of the worst degree.

The Hindus of Nusantara became Muslims not because of “marauding” activities such as those carried out by the Christian Spaniards. They became Muslims through the efforts of Muslims who came as traders and at the same time extended their hands to the then Hindus of Nusantara. Please don’t try to twist historical facts.

As for the expansion of Islam to Spain and other parts of Europe, it was mainly the result of oppression of the Christian kings and Emperors themselves, the breaking up of Christianity into eastern and western branches of Christianity, the struggle between popes and emperors over who had the right to make religious appointments. The local citizens who were followers of the true teachings of Jesus (not the ones corrupted by Paul) and Jews were terribly persecuted. Many were burnt alive mainly because they did not conform to the new teachings (God in three forms, the day of the “sun” became the day to listen to sermons etc etc).

So was the expansion of Islam to Persia and the Indus areas. The trouble is not many people care to read history in its entirety but prefer to read only those that appeal to them.

As for your statement, Christianity, Hinduism and Buddhism came earlier than Islam, I would not want to argue over that. But to be fair to all religions, why don’t you make a comparative study seriously. That will enable you to have a better understanding of them.
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written by Panca Indera, June 28, 2008 10:15:14
The First explanation and understanding of God by Imam Ali in Nahjul Balagha

Part of Sermon1

The foremost in religion is the acknowledgement of Him,
The perfection of acknowledging Him is to testify Him,
The perfection of testifying Him is to believe in His Oneness,
The perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure,
The perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes,

because every attribute is a proof that it is different from that to which it is attributed and everything to which something is attributed is different from the attribute. Thus whoever attaches attributes to Allah
recognises His like,
and who recognises His like regards Him two;
and who regards Him two recognises parts for Him;
and who recognises parts for Him mistook Him;
and who mistook Him pointed at Him;
and who pointed at Him admitted limitations for Him;
and who admitted limitations for Him numbered Him.

Whoever said in what is He,
held that He is contained;
and whoever said on what is He held He is not on something else.

He is a Being but not through phenomenon of coming into being.
He exists but not from non-existence.
He is with everything but not in physical nearness.
He is different from everything but not in physical separation.
He acts but without connotation of movements and instruments.
He sees even when there is none to be looked at from among His creation.
He is only One, such that there is none with whom He may keep company or whom He may miss in his absence.

Sermon100
He (Allah) is the First before every first and the Last after every last. His Firstness necessitates that there is no (other) first before Him and His Lastness necessitates that there is no other last after Him. I do stand witness that there is no god but Allah both openly as well as secretly, with heart as well as with tongue.

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written by shamsul siahaan, June 28, 2008 10:20:18
written by akcc81, June 28, 2008 | 01:58:00

Nobody is looking at the Malay Muslims with suspicion. This is your own perception because you are suffering from inferiority complex. As you said, the non-Muslims do no admit it, you only SENSED it. That's because ONLY you have the right to be sensitive in this country under the unwritten law, nobody else has it as it's a crime for the non-Muslims to be sensitive.
======================================================= =======================


Let me tell you of a formula. If you are a Malay/Muslim, learn to speak Tamil , Cantonese and Hokkien. You’ll be surprised. You’ll be learning a lot more than just languages.
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written by akcc81, June 28, 2008 13:30:28
Shamsul Siahaan wrote:

It was the Americans who created the Taliban movement, providing it with military and financial support as part of the plan to oust the Soviets. Once the Soviet U was chased out of Afghanistan, the sneaky Americans began to abandon the Talibans and install their puppets to protect their dubious interests. The Talibans certainly knew that they have been betrayed by the Americans and retaliated. One of the action taken was, as you say, massacring of the “innocent” Afghans. The Talibans justify their actions because the “innocent Afghans” are “turn-coats” – they are “munafiks” of the worst degree.


My reply:

I can't believe you actually support the Talibans justification of their diabolical acts just because the Afghans who were killed were accused of being turn-coats (munafiks of the worst degree). You truly have a Jahiliyah mindset (that which Prophet Mohammed came to abolish). If you put the blame on America for every wrong done in the world because of your freaking biased mindset, then give them glory too for the success you attain in this world (They perfercted computers,phones, etc too).

They perfected bombs, guns for the Talibans to "justifiably" kill the Afghans, so the blame goes to them. They perfected airplanes for the Al-Qaeda to ram into the WTC, so the blame goes to them. It seems like the perpetrators/abusers of good technology bears no responsibilities whatsoever for their sick actions. Going by your reasoning, we can commit any sin in the world and the blame goes to the person who created the means for us to commit our sins. If you keep tracing back the timeline of blame, then ultimately I suppose the one you would point your finger to is God because He created the world. What kind of STUPID/IDIOTIC/ASSININE reasoning that befits that of the Dark Ages!

Go ahead and justify the Holocaust, Russian pogrom, genocides by Serbia and Pol Pot. They are just similar to what the Talibans committed. The weapons used were never created by them anyway, they just bought them from the "real perpetrators".

Mind you, you can justify however you like according to your biasness, but the day will come when we all have come before that Great Judge and each one will be judged according to his deeds by the perfect judgment. I don't see how you can pass the blame on to others for your deeds however you want to justify them.
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written by akcc81, June 28, 2008 13:43:23
To Shamsul Siahaan,

As for the amount of wars fought and the number of people sacrificed during the early days of Islam when it spreaded across North Africa and the Middle East, you and I know the FACTS. We have read them in the history books as well, unless you intend to twist history now. I shall not list them here.

And please don't teach me how to read history as I definitely know history better than you. I have done probably more comparative study of various religions than you ever could imagine.

And please practise what you preach: "If you are a Malay/Muslim, learn to speak Tamil , Cantonese and Hokkien. You’ll be surprised. You’ll be learning a lot more than just languages."

I cannot agree any more with you on this and I can proudly say I know more languages than you. So, please walk your talk!
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written by akcc81, June 28, 2008 13:53:51
Shamsul Siahaan wrote:
My comment is in the Malaysian context. You know, it is a very sensitive issue, so why keep pursuing the matter. Is it meant as a test of nerves of some kind? If the word "Tuhan" is used in the Bible, it does not mean it is not "God" (English) or "Allah" (Arabic) or "Elovah" (Hebrew). Why not take the middle path? After all, this is what Christianity preaches, right?

My reply:
Be that as it may, religion is not exclusive to one nation/ethnicity. This is what UMNO wants you to espouse and you have fallen into their trap. You of all people should have known better.

So if it can be sensitive to the Muslims, it can't be sensitive to the Christians is it? Aren't you testing the nerves of the Christians? Why must others always compromise for your sensitivity? So are you suggesting that Islam doesn't teach you to take the middle path as well? How could you manipulate other religions for your selfish purposes.

Religion is something between man and God. You have no right whatsoever to restrict others from addressing God. I'm sure God wouldn't too. So please don't play judge cos you aren't God.

Why must even God be politicised? Why must such an issue be sensitive to the Malays? I already said, the constitution doesn't even allow a Malay to be preached to by any other religious teachers, so what's all the fuss about?
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written by Panca Indera, June 28, 2008 16:01:39
"Death and taking lessons from it
If you could see that has been seen by those of you who have died, you would be puzzled and troubled. Then you would have listened and obeyed; but what they have seen is yet curtained off from you. Shortly, the curtain would be thrown off. You have been shown, provided you see and you have been made to listen provided you listen, and you have been guided if you accept guidance. I spoke unto you with truth. You have been called aloud by (instructive) examples and warned through items full of warnings. After the heavenly messengers (angels), only man can convey message from Allah. (So what I am conveying is from Allah)." from nahjul Balagha
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written by cheekhiaw, June 28, 2008 16:56:54
NO NEED TO TEST THEIR NERVES

For people that suck up to some 2nd hand copies of others' ideas, it can be very sensitive to deny them their right to claim some originality in naming their deity.

One can always pretend that that name was not adopted from their pagan predecessors.

With such a history, do we really need to test nerves?

xxx
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written by teohism, June 28, 2008 17:36:42
Dear RPK,

If Islam indeed doesn't advocate or spread hate - how is it that it's founder goes to WAR? Let go kill the enemies of God with our LOVELY war!!!

The end justify the means? A killer is a killer in any society except in God's Name...?

The Meek Shall Inherit The Earth

The above statement (Biblical) is what other religion advocate and practice. Of course, ALL politician are not meek as they won't make good politicians. In the end, the meek & silent majority takes all kinds of shit hurled at them. Christians are told to turn the other cheek. Buddhist are told to reflect inwardly & find Peace...

This leaves the vocal & barbaric religion and it's followers that seems to be turning over backwards trying to justify their actions with fear tactics. How is it that a God whose Love is Unconditional goes around putting the fear of hell in believers & unbelievers? How is it that a religion that preaches peace has it's founder (& wife and family) going on holy wars?

How can such wars be holy? No better that their so called enemies...
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written by Homeyasu, June 28, 2008 19:16:12
The thought of war, is ALWAYS DIRTY.

If you believe that all beings are creations of God, why hurt God's possessions?

You have to respect people for each and everyone of us have our individual opinions.
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written by Panca Indera, June 28, 2008 19:38:38
SERMON 105
About Islam
Praise be to Allah who established Islam and made it easy for those who approach it and gave strength to its columns against any one who tries to overpower it. So Allah made it (a source of) peace for him who clings to it, safety for him who enters it, argument for him who speaks about it, witness for him who fights with its help, light for him who seeks light from it, understanding for him who provides it, sagacity for him who exerts, a sign (of guidance) for him who perceives, sight for him who resolves, lesson for him who seeks advice, salvation for him who testifies, confidence for him who trusts, pleasure for him who entrusts, and shield for him who endures.
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written by bakas, June 28, 2008 19:40:50
Let me see whether I can ask everyone to calm down and see the rational of RPK’s article above. First, when you read the article, try to understand the motive behind the writing; which in this case to educate. But educate against what? The answer is obvious: the SYSTEM. The religious system by which, all religions are spread and lay upon. The religion have no fault at all here, despite all the great research you guys have done to illustrate that Muslims are bent on destroying each other, or that the Christians are guilty of the crusades and Spanish Inquisition, the list goes on and on and on, that I can make it my toilet paper for 100 years. What you might not realize here is that, not all true Christians or true Muslims subscribe to the same thinking as those who waged those wars or atrocities. Ask any Christian about whether they agree that the Church was right in doing that, and they will say no. Even the Pope has apologized for the sins of the past on behalf of the Church. The same goes for the Muslims now. They have no part when those bloods were shed during the wars, yes, even the wars between Muslims and Muslims. I can go on and on, blaming Genghis Khan and his gods, the Nazis, the Japanese and their Shinto faith etc for all the evil deeds in the past. But the question here is, when all the religions were founded, was there a message asking all believers to wage a war towards all those who don’t believe in the same faith? The answer is NO, so stop equating past sins with the religion. It is the people whom we call teachers/gurus/enlightened ones/ministers who are guilty of misleading us. All the imams, priests, ministers, monks, those learned people; if they ever teach us the message that is contrary to the spirit of peace, then that is what we must oppose, not the religion. RPK is asking all my Muslim brethren to take heed of this words. But why the Muslims? Because RPK is a Muslim, and it is HIS responsibility to exhort all his Muslim brethren to listen to the voice of reason and truth. Because only our Muslim brothers go the khutbah every Fridays and listen to people we trusted with teaching us how to find the correct path. But does this absolves all my non-Muslim brothers and sisters from heeding the same call? No, because the call is for ALL. People, look beyond the religion that I believe, and see that I am just human like you. But when you see injustice, incitement to hatred, and something evil, OPPOSE IT! Do not dwell too much on the past histories, think of what you can do now in order to avoid making the same mistakes as in the past. And for goodness sake, stop blaming each other’s religion or beliefs and see whether you can out-live, out-wit, out-research and silence each other. You were not there, I repeat not there! Histories happened so that we might look back and say “I should not make the same mistakes, commit the same cruelty, do the same evil, maintain my silence when I see injustice in front of me. I should be able to do something for the good of all mankind”.
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written by bakas, June 28, 2008 19:42:12
Number two, this rhetoric about ‘us against them’ is so yesterday, and yet we still subscribe to it. Why? Again because of the system! We have been indoctrinated from childhood to oppose those evil infidels, those prime candidates to hell and that only we deserve to go to heaven. The rest, ah!!!…To the hell with them!!!!…And we must do whatever it takes so that everyone becomes the same. But faith is free, just like love is. You cannot force someone to love you and the same is true for God. Allah wants us to love Him with a free mind, heart and intellect, with all our soul and everything that we have, not force you to believe in something you do not want to. As for the judgment, leave it to Allah Almighty to decide, for He is just and merciful. The Western leaders who constantly push for war and the culture of death are not even worthy to call themselves Christians, because they violated the rule that Jesus taught, which is, to love your enemy and to forgive and to spread love not hate. They are playing God, simply because they have the power. But does it mean I have to wage jihad upon all the people in the West? No, because in the West, there are good Christians, good Muslims, good Buddhist, good Hindus and good people from all parts of religion in the world as well. Stop associating the West to Christianity and the Muslims as violent terrorist!!! As far as I am concerned, there are Christians, Muslims, Buddhist and all-religion-included terrorists in the world. And stop associating yourself with this people even though you belong to the same religion! They are not your brothers and sisters, anymore than an elephant is the long lost brother of the mosquito. Amar maaruf nahi munkar for the Muslims, the Golden Rule for the Christians, the attainment of perfection for nirwana for the Buddhist and the attainment of perfection to become Brahma for the Hindus (pardon me, I can’t put all religion here…). Hold all these, to attain salvation and perfection.

As to the Allah usage, my brother shamsul siahaan, Allah is the same as God, so there, I rest my case. The irresponsible people are politicizing this issue and this issue is hot like goreng pisang in Malaysia only. Not even the Indonesians ban the Christians there from using the word Allah, and they professed to be an Islamic country! But my personal belief is, Allah is not exclusive to the Muslims only, for our Christian brothers and the Jews also believe in the same God. Please do not make God exclusive to a certain group of people only. God is not a trophy to be passed around as you wish, or to be owned as you would like to.

Last one. RPK was spot-on on one thing. He wrote and I quote:

The choice is not really with the non-Muslims. They are the minority and minorities do not have too many choices. The choice is with the Muslims. The Muslims can regard the non-Muslims as brothers and sisters fighting for a common cause -- a better Malaysia for the future generations -- or they can continue shouting that non-Muslims should never be taken as friends. And the choice the Muslims make will determine the outcome of the 13th General Election, whenever that is going to be held.

Being minority makes you appreciate your faith better than those in the majority. Majority will always take their faith for granted. Minority will suffer silently, but peacefully, for they know that their faith is justified. So, listen here, to those of you who still think that being a Malay and Muslim means that you must maintain your status and privileges because you are the bumiputra of the land. You are perpetuating the notion that all men are born not equal under God’s sun and moon. I for one believe that if you are Malay, and you are poor, the help must be extended. But if you are a poor Chinese or Indian, does that make you less worthy to get help? No, you must also extend the same loving hand to the needy. Yes, by all means, that’s what RPK mean (I hope I am not wrong on this, or RPK will whack me to kingdom come) by saying that the wide chasm between us is getting closer. He means a better society, caring to each other, looking beyond skin-color, race, religion and beliefs. A country, where all the people respect each other and living in peace and harmony. Don’t you see, the choice is with you, my Malay brothers and sisters, because you have the bulk of power to decide whether to continue supporting the perpetrators of evil deeds in this country or to change the system. Again, the theme in all RPK’s article is the need for change. Change of heart for all to see that all men and women are born equal, change of mindset, that we will not be selfish and only think about ourselves only, and last but not least, change of soul, that we will see the good in every person we meet around us.
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written by bakas, June 28, 2008 19:44:13
Yes, the system manipulates the religion and politics to divide us. The same system is operating all over the world to divide all people, irrespective of religion. Muslim from Christians, Christians from Buddhists etc, but if you believe that all religions are good, then you have to know that it is possible that we can live in harmony with each other. For the place of good is with good itself. Is that a utopia? Perhaps. Am I a dreamer? Perhaps. But all dreams do come true, if you believe hard enough in it, and work hard enough to make it come true. And may God, who stands as my witness, bless all of us, for He lets the sun shines upon good people and bad people as well. By all means, if you are a Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist or whatever you are, be a good person in action and faith. For that is the true meaning of religion. Peace be upon all of you. smilies/cheesy.gif
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written by teohism, June 28, 2008 22:31:19
Dear Panca Indera,

You wrote - Don't you dare accuse Islam of being barbaric religion, NEVER. Many of its followers maybe barbaric because of wrong perception, just like you.
Remember, all God's religion teaches goodness and peace.

My response is atypical of your kind - arrogant BUT nevertheless wrong - again. I didn't perceive history... it is written in the Quran. Compare to the religion that says 'turn-the-other-cheek', yours advocate war.

Of course it's the SAME God. It's us humans that is living it (with His permission). Did he not give us free will?

Who are we (or our Article 160) to try to 'define' His Purpose.

Let's work to change it...

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written by teohism, June 28, 2008 22:37:55
Oops...Correction, - Your response...
(we are only humans)
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written by teohism, June 28, 2008 23:03:08
Relax brothers, goto http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...re=related
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written by Panca Indera, June 29, 2008 01:05:15
Mr./Ms Teochism
I could ignore your unsubstantiated comment “typical of your kind - arrogant BUT nevertheless wrong – again”, but since you have open the Pandora Box, may I asked what exactly do you mean by “typical of my kind”?

Do you know my age, my sex, my marital status, my race, my skin colour? (yes! you only know my religion and your ill feelings shows)
Arrogant! The simplest definition of it is;” overbearing pride evidenced by a superior manner toward inferiors”.
Are my comments and postings as above causing you distress?
If you care to read RPK’s topic on the subject on this particular blog, its about Muslims behavior addressed to Muslims, like what Bakas wrote.

I was addressing the issue from my perspective. While you Sir out of nowhere suddenly crashed in and make a statement like,:

“If Islam indeed doesn't advocate or spread hate - how is it that it's founder goes to WAR? Let go kill the enemies of God with our LOVELY war!!!
The end justify the means? A killer is a killer in any society except in God's Name...?

Now who is arrogant/ignorant here?

Muhammad (PBUH) is not the founder of Islam, if you are still unaware.

“Christians are told to turn the other cheek. Buddhist are told to reflect inwardly & find Peace...” Your statements do not reflect the reality that prevail.

1.Look at the Dalai Lama being feted by the West and instigating riots and disturbance , while trying to discredit the Chinese during this Olympic year in Beijing.
2.Look at the Leader of the Crusaders himself (Mr. Bush) leading the destruction of civil society in Iraq on False Pretense(weapons of mass destruction). Is that his version of Christ teaching of turning the other cheek after 9/11.

“I didn't perceive history... it is written in the Quran.”
Ahah! You read one sentence from the book and you think you know it all, That’s ARROGANCE! With a big A.

Do you know when and why the verse about “going to war” was written?
Do you the conditions and the requirement before A Muslim is required to go to war?

Reading one verse or the Quran, especially without any preparation and without any historical knowledge of the prophet’s (PBUH) mission, is inviting misconception and mis-understanding.

It is like thinking and saying all Christians priests are gays and perverts( I am not trying to insult Christians, just trying to use the same logic as Mr Teochism).
So please, Mr. Teochism, or is it a Ms Teochism, next time think very carefully before making comments that cause unnecessary hard feelings( I’m having one right now ha,ha)
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written by mucking fuddled, June 29, 2008 04:23:47
dear shamsul siahaan,
you are either more simple than Forrest Gump or thick as a plank or more confused than my namesake.....
Man is already trying to map out the human genome and here you are talking about who created the thumb print....
All the astronomers in the world,give Forrest Gump a round of applause cause he thinks 'That Guy'and i hope he means God otherwise he'll be in trouble for showing disrespect for 'That Guy'....created sunrise
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written by Panca Indera, June 29, 2008 09:33:29
Dear Mr. Teochism
Below is a list of different verses in the Quran having the word WAR. Please read and tell me where does Muhammad’s God tells him to be the aggressor and wage war. Never. Instead the words, investigate, unjust , oppressed, respect and permission comes before making war.
[4.94] O you who believe! when you go to war in Allah's way, make investigation, and do not say to any one who offers you peace: You are not a believer. Do you seek goods of this world's life! But with Allah there are abundant gains; you too were such before, then Allah conferred a benefit on you; therefore make investigation; surely Allah is aware of what you do.
[8.15] O you who believe! when you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them.
22.39] Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them;
52.42] Or do they desire a war? But those who disbelieve shall be the vanquished ones in war.
60.8] Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.
[60.9] Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.

If you care to investigate, the early battles, e.g. Badar, Uhud, the muslims were outgunned, outnumbered at more than 3:1. Who in the right mind would want to start a war at such a military disadvantage. Its was the Meccan disbelievers that started the war. He finished it off for them.
Watch my lips! Inshallah the American and their allies will retreat with their tails between their legs from Iraq and Afghanistan. Remember, they are the invaders.
The Aussies are smart, they have quit early while the going is good. smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif
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written by teohism, June 29, 2008 11:18:58
Dear PI,

I don’t have to know you or you, me.

Generally speaking, ‘typical of your kind’ mean Global Muslim mentality (& Malay Malaysian) and of my comments of course are my personal views and observations.

(It seems to me) that everywhere the reaction of global Muslims is ‘talk bad about us – we kill you’. Your above response to my comments reeks of threats. TRUE?

I’m sure there’s terrorist in every civilization or in most strained situations. I consider my baby daughter a terrorist at one time! I don’t condone ANY religious ‘followers’ who stray from their doctrine. These are obvious hypocrites.

My observation is – the followers and the founder of your religion seems VERY incline to aggression. Cannot accept my observation? Tough luck! Also, more tough on your Opposition who are meeker.

You (generally speaking!) can be the Opposition now but there’s no difference even if you are in control. My opinion is this – Badawi, Najib OR Anwar… no difference if ALL cannot accept different opinions or criticisms. Malay Malaysian has been in a state delusion for far too long that they don’t see their pitiful situation. Blame the selfish politicians.

Question: (Predominantly) Followers of which religion goes around burning embassies?

How to clap hands properly if we are under duress? Why do you have so much insecurity? Don’t deserve your special privileges?

For the situation and the position of ALL Malaysian to improve, we have to address some fundamentals. This is my suggested checklist…

1.)Census of present ethnic make-up (Does anybody trust the present data?)
2.)Census of Income of Ethnic Group (NEP should be given to right group)

I’ve heard of this conspiracy theory - that there’s more Chinese Malaysian than Malay Malaysian IF the Bumis are not clump together with the Malays. Is this one of the reason that there’s phantom voter & the ‘illegal Blue IC’? How long has this been going on?

Dear P.I. – do not try to censure me (non-Malay Malaysian) with threats, status or religion… be a more globally minded human being. Be a true brother to the rest of your status-ly inferior Malaysian.

Sorry if I’m too brash to assume from your nick that you are a Malay Malaysian* and for being disagreeable with you.

* Malay Malaysian – There are Malays in other countries and Malaysia is NOT the recognized ethnic Malay center. So, Malays are also migrants and similar to the Chinese, Indians, Arabic migrants… (ok, ok, I’ve no supportive facts on this…)

Muslims globally should learn to laugh at themselves – some of us don't want to clap hands with 'terrorist'.

If it means anything or help you understand, I'm a Chinese Malaysian, Christian Buddhist living in Australia. Most of us Overseas Malaysian (hey, I like this correct term better than Overseas Chinese...) are more liberal and vocal. Why? Far from 'Homeland Securities'!
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written by teohism, June 29, 2008 11:35:13
Pandora Box is build by Arrogant Politicians. smilies/grin.gif It should be opened - also known as being transparent.

We first have to learn to denounce Fear. Fear tactics then cannot work-lah.

Anyway, Syabas to RPK - also Bakas for a very enlightening discourse on RPK's trail. Sorry P.I., nothing personal - just that it REALLY is unfair in Malaysia when dissent is not encourage by Government System & Religion (aggressive religious followers?) smilies/grin.gif
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written by mucking fuddled, June 29, 2008 13:55:00
dear Bakas,

This is from my heart....
Guys like you and rpk are the true sons of their own religion and faith, who are rational and sees all human beings as equals regardless....if only a handful could read things like you guys, our country would be the envy of all conflict stricken nations.....
Can anyone please please tell me what do one wish to gain by claiming, his or her own religion or faith or race to be the greatest?????
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written by teohism, June 29, 2008 14:45:29
Life is boring...if not for our individually unique experiences & viewpoints. This is the proverbial - Fruit of Wisdom, Freedom of Choice that humankind has been arguing and fighting from time immemorial AND will continue to do so.

My God, Your God – will always be different because of our own unique experience. Whether they are the same or not is really immaterial to human who wants to argue…

Ask 2 food tasters their opinion on one dish – you’d probably get different response. Why? Unexpected?... exactly,… they’ll probably give a different opinion on the same dish the next day! Get it!? Even prophets ARGUE & FIGHT!!!

Life is 'Reality Program', a real-time Soap Opera. We can choose to be a part of it or choose not to be a player. Some of us are lucky (by nature) not to be affected by other's comments - some ARE affected because of indoctrination.

Some nationals can't choose because the Gov'ment is not democratic. Others don't want to support the majorities decision. Malaysia is better and more blessed than a lot of other countries - still, it's in our nature to 'do better', even in Governance and citizenry. Hence, we argue & fight about evreything!

Find your happy place...

(Mine’s sometimes in the blogs where I got chance to voice out…)
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written by malgal, June 29, 2008 16:04:19
so how about it, friends? answer the final call to hold hands or continue the duality of existence ?
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written by Zul Kahar, June 29, 2008 16:24:28
BATU

Adakah menjadi suatu kesalahan bagi manusia, jika tidak memuliakan batu dan tidak membesarkan batu, atau tidak minta ampun kepada batu, atau tidak memuja batu, atau tidak menyembah batu, atau tidak mencintai batu, atau tidak mencium dan tidak melambai batu, atau tidak mengelilingi batu, atau tidak menghadap batu, atau tidak melontar batu?

Apakah hukumnya, jika manusia itu pula, menyembah batu, menghadap batu, menangis pada batu, memuliakan batu, mencintai batu, mencium batu, melambai batu, mengelilingi batu, memuja batu, memohon doa kepada batu, membesar-besarkan batu?

Apakah hukumnya, jika Tuhan itu berumah batu, dan syaitan itu pula adalah tembok batu?

(For further updated writings from us, please ***** on ‘You’ve got mail – from prophet?’ by Dr. Azly in Republic Of Virtue’s section, or ***** to YouTube page at the following address: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OizwIgZTcrI)
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written by Zul Kahar, June 29, 2008 16:26:11
PERSOALAN

Apakah hukumnya, jika Tuhan itu lebih mempercayai Nabi Musa daripada keputusan yang telah dibuat-Nya?

Dan apakah hukumnya, jika Tuhan itu sifat dan keputusan-Nya berubah-ubah?

Dan apakah hukumnya, Tuhan itu tidak bersifat Maha Mengetahui?

Apakah hukumnya, jika Nabi Musa itu lebih mengetahui daripada Tuhan tentang umat Nabi Muhammad, dan daripada Nabi Muhammad itu sendiri?

Apakah hukumnya, jika Nabi Musa itu mempengaruhi Nabi Muhammad supaya mengubah keputusan Tuhan itu kepadanya?

Apakah hukumnya, jika Nabi Muhammad itu lebih mempercayai kata-kata Nabi Musa daripada kata-kata Tuhan dan keputusan-Nya?

Apakah hukumnya, jika seseorang itu mengatakan semula ayat-ayat Tuhan dan perintah-Nya itu kepada Tuhan?

Apakah hukumnya, jika seseorang itu mengatakan sesuatu kepada Tuhan yang tidak difahaminya?

Apakah hukumnya, jika seseorang itu berkata-kata dengan bersendirian dalam bahasa yang tidak difahaminya?

Apakah hukumnya, jika seseorang itu mempermain-mainkan atau memperolok-olokkan ayat-ayat Tuhan dan perintah-Nya kepada mereka, tanpa difahami, dan ditaati, atau diikutinya?

Apakah hukumnya, jika seseorang itu mengadakan dusta terhadap Allah dan Rasul-Rasul-Nya?

Apakah hukumnya, jika seseorang itu menjadikan ayat-ayat Tuhan dan perintah-Nya sebagai syair?

Apakah hukumnya, jika seseorang itu berkata-kata tanpa sesiapa yang melayaninya?

(For further updated writings from us, please ***** on ‘You’ve got mail – from prophet?’ by Dr. Azly in Republic Of Virtue’s section, or ***** to YouTube page at the following address: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OizwIgZTcrI)
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written by Zul Kahar, June 29, 2008 16:29:08
DOA ORANG-ORANG BERIMAN KEPADA TUHAN

FIRMAN ALLAH, Surah Ali ‘Imran, ayat 192 hingga 194;



‘Ya Tuhan kami, sesungguhnya barangsiapa yang Engkau masukkan ke dalam neraka, maka sungguh telah Engkau hinakan ia, dan tidak ada bagi orang-orang yang zalim seorang penolongpun. Ya Tuhan kami, sesungguhnya kami mendengar seruan yang menyeru kepada iman, iaitu: “Berimanlah kamu kepada Tuhanmu”, maka kami pun beriman. Ya Tuhan kami, ampunilah bagi kami dosa-dosa kami dan hapuskanlah dari kami kesalahan-kesalahan kami, dan wafatkanlah kami berserta orang-orang yang berbakti. Ya Tuhan kami, berilah kami apa yang telah Engkau janjikan kepada kami dengan perantaraan Rasul-Rasul Engkau. Dan janganlah Engkau hinakan kami di hari kiamat. Sesungguhnya Engkau tidak menyalahi janji.’


(For further updated writings from us, please ***** on ‘You’ve got mail – from prophet?’ by Dr. Azly in Republic Of Virtue’s section, or ***** to YouTube page at the following address: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OizwIgZTcrI)
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written by Zul Kahar, June 29, 2008 16:48:39
SIAPAKAH YANG LEBIH BENAR DAN SIAPAKAH YANG SESAT DI ANTARA RASUL DAN ORANG-ORANG BERIMAN DENGAN PIHAK JAIS, MAIS & MAJLIS FATWA DAN ORANG-ORANG YANG SEPENDAPAT DENGAN MEREKA

FIRMAN ALLAH, Surah Al An’aam (Binatang Ternak), ayat 116 – 117;

‘Dan jika kamu menuruti kebanyakan orang-orang yang di muka bumi ini, niscaya mereka akan menyesatkanmu dari jalan Allah. Mereka tidak lain hanyalah mengikuti persangkaan belaka, dan mereka tidak lain hanyalah berdusta. Sesungguhnya Tuhanmu, Dia-lah yang lebih mengetahui tentang orang yang tersesat dari jalan-Nya dan Dia lebih mengetahui tentang orang-orang yang mendapat petunjuk.’

Keterangan:

Berdasarkan keterangan ayat-ayat Tuhan yang di atas, kebanyakan manusia di muka bumi adalah sesat. Maka oleh sebab itulah Tuhan melarang Rasul-Rasul-Nya dan orang-orang yang beriman, mengikuti kebanyakan manusia. Dan Tuhan itulah yang lebih mengetahui siapa di antara mereka yang sesat dan siapa pula di antara mereka yang mendapat petunjuk.

Persoalannya di sini, pihak JAIS dan MAIS serta Majlis Fatwa di negara ini dan pihak-pihak atau orang-orang yang sependapat dengan mereka, membuat kenyataan pertuduhan terhadap Rasul yang diutuskan Tuhan sekarang ini dan orang-orang yang beriman yang mengikutinya pula yang sesat. Di sini terdapat percanggahan keterangan yang datang daripada Tuhan dan keterangan pertuduhan yang datang daripada pihak tersebut terhadap Rasul, dan orang-orang yang beriman itu.

Keterangan pihak manakah yang lebih benar di antara Tuhan dengan pihak JAIS, MAIS serta Majlis Fatwa negara ini, dan pihak-pihak atau orang-orang yang sependapat dengan mereka, terhadap Rasul dan orang-orang beriman tersebut?

Mengikut keterangan Tuhan yang tersebut di atas, keputusan-Nya adalah, pihak JAIS dan MAIS serta Majlis Fatwa, dan orang-orang yang sependapat dengan mereka itulah yang sesat. Dan merekalah orang yang mengikut persangkaan dan berdusta.

(For further updated writings from us, please ***** on ‘You’ve got mail – from prophet?’ by Dr. Azly in Republic Of Virtue’s section, or ***** to YouTube page at the following address: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OizwIgZTcrI)
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written by Thian, June 29, 2008 17:58:49
Islam, Christianity, Buddhist, Hinduism etc. is great but the practitioners may not be. Malaysia is great but the citizens may not be. Justice is great but people may not be. Equality is great but …..

Then it is simply the people have problem…..

We are against any discrimination, against the religion, race, sex, age or any forms of superficial barriers or labels to dehumanize us the being.

So let work to get the people near the ideal of it and that is the whole point to move forward.

Harping on the minute forms or using the books to think for us is stagnant and unproductive.

I have no doubt that the book is correct and also the truth; but are we or our interpretations.

Are we so sure we have not yet more room to grow both in the heart or the mind?

God is limitless and can never get insulted. Human get insulted. Why get insulted it is because of our ego.

Limitless ego has no room for God. Ego and God is directly inversely related. The fewer egos you have; the more Godliness you are.

Awareness with Interdependent Inclusiveness Consciousness is what Good is all about.

I am sure it is very difficult to cultivate and sometime seems impossible. Only in this reality then we are with God.

Differentiate indocrination and truth.

Only when they have really developed God consciousness then no amount of propagation is necessary. It will be self evident in the way you think, the way you do things, the way you write, the way you speak, the way you behave etc…..

Until then, may we find the truth with God speed.

_____________________

written by malgal, June 29, 2008 | 16:04:19

so how about it, friends? answer the final call to hold hands or continue the duality of existence ?
_____________________

Absolutely, unity.

Thank you RPK for raising the consciousness of Malaysia.
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written by marsyal, June 29, 2008 19:09:31
i find it difficult to achieve bangsa malaysia when our names are reflecting whether we are malay, chinese, indian, kadazan, iban etc unless we practise like what being done in indonesia. When Sukarno developed this "bangsa indonesia" all indonesians have to use indonesia names. but are we ready for that??
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written by Panca Indera, June 29, 2008 22:19:51
Dear Taisan,
refer the Quran reference you used below.
8:39 Fight them until there is no dissension and the religion is entirely Allah's.

Can you please provide the Translator name. The word he chose “ dissension is not the correct translation. The correct translations are provided below.

008.039
YUSUFALI: And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
PICKTHAL: And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.
SHAKIR: And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.

In all translations the correct word is oppression, persecution or tumult.
Dissension means entirely different.
LIARS WILL ALWAYS BE FOUND OUT, sooner or later.

Please do get the correct version and do not try to mislead. Do you hate Islam?

note: Its tough trying to fight for truth when many choose to just stand and watch while the Islamophobic are having a field day insulting and tell half truths. As God's promise, His Truth will prevail over everything. Its a win win situation. smilies/cheesy.gif smilies/cheesy.gif smilies/cheesy.gif
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written by Panca Indera, June 29, 2008 23:34:08
Dear Teochism
Your above response to my comments reeks of threats. TRUE?
UNTRUE!
My observation is – the followers and the founder of your religion seems VERY incline to aggression. Cannot accept my observation? Tough luck!
I can accept a sound analysis or logical argument, but not flawed observation without solid facts.!

Question: (Predominantly) Followers of which religion goes around burning embassies?
They burned embassies because they can’t get at the culprit who insulted their religion and Prophet(PBUH).
How would the christians feel if Muslims(God forbid!) called Jesus is a bastard and the Pope is Gay and publish in the newspaper in Italy, France and all the Catholic countries

Do you thing the Christians will just laugh it off?

How to clap hands properly if we are under duress? Why do you have so much insecurity? Don’t deserve your special privileges?
I do not feel insecure, at all, as I am at peace with my Creator and religion.

For the situation and the position of ALL Malaysian to improve, we have to address some fundamentals. This is my suggested checklist…
1.)Census of present ethnic make-up (Does anybody trust the present data?)
2.)Census of Income of Ethnic Group (NEP should be given to right group)
(we are side tracking here from the original issue)

I’ve heard of this conspiracy theory - that there’s more Chinese Malaysian than Malay Malaysian IF the Bumis are not clump together with the Malays. Is this one of the reason that there’s phantom voter & the ‘illegal Blue IC’? How long has this been going on?
(we are side tracking here from the original issue)

Dear P.I. – do not try to censure me (non-Malay Malaysian) with threats, status or religion… be a more globally minded human being. Be a true brother to the rest of your status-ly inferior Malaysian.
continue.....
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written by Panca Indera, June 29, 2008 23:37:45
continuation....
I am not threatening you, just simply stating the facts, Can you deny they did not happened?
Can you not see the point, where there will be certain groups who will seize on your comment about Islam being barbaric to point out that the Non-Muslims are Islamophobic and use it as an excuse to whip-up a frenzy. Can you deny that possibility?
As I said you can insult the Muslims for not following,like RPK does and nobody minds.
Just don’t insult their religion.



So, Malays are also migrants and similar to the Chinese, Indians, Arabic migrants… (ok, ok, I’ve no supportive facts on this…)
If you don’t have supportive facts, isn’t it called bullshit?

Muslims globally should learn to laugh at themselves – some of us don't want to clap hands with 'terrorist'.
Who says they don’t laugh?
They only don’t laugh when Islamophobics make fun of their religion and Prophet. They get very angry and go on warpath and burn embassies.


I'm a Chinese Malaysian, Christian Buddhist living in Australia. Most of us Overseas Malaysian are more liberal and vocal. Why? Far from 'Homeland Securities'!
Oh?
But are you more Intellectual and visionary than your Malaysian counterparts or is your long sojourn Down-under have made you more Australians than the Australians. Fat chance! Or Buckley”s Chance, Fair Dinkum!


Its news to me. ‘Tell me briefly what exactly does a Christian cum Buddhist beliefs or tenets of faith constitute. As far as I know, Christians generally believe in Jesus Christ as the God, the Son and the Holy Spirit(Trinity), a single god nevertheless, but in three forms.
Mahayana Buddhism is religious veneration of celestial beings, Buddhas and boddhisatvas, ceremonies, religious rituals, magical rites, and the use of icons, images, and other sacred objects.
DO you combine or you alternate?

Note: you still have not substantiate your statement “f Islam indeed doesn't advocate or spread hate - how is it that it's founder goes to WAR? “
You still have not admit to your error of calling Muhammad(PBUH) the founder of Islam. A gentleman will admit his mistake or error but there is a certain chinese proverb that says Its OK to tell a Lie as long as it is not discovered, is it not true?

Please provide facts or at least the reference, otherwise, its only fair for me to think that you are islamophobic, which if the case then you are no more , no less a flawed and prejudiced person who is slanted or biased to a certain cause Period.
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written by Panca Indera, June 30, 2008 00:16:00
[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits
[4.76] Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Shaitan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Shaitan; surely the strategy of the Shaitan is weak.

So it is a Duty of every Muslim as commanded in the Quran to fight injustice, oppression, those who fight for the evil and those who exceeded the limits.

Tell me, when a person insults another person religion or beliefs, it that exceeding the limit or not?

IS not insulting others an evil deed?

Islam gives the right to defence and retaliation in order to prevent certain people from abusing their rights. Every Rights come with responsibility and nobody has any right to oppress, be unjust or insult others, be it beliefs or color of skin or race.

Is it a normal civilized and acceptable behaviour to insult another person belief, religion, race, customs, just because you don’t agree with or have different views?

Respect must work both ways, i.e. given and shown.
Of course God is not affected by Insult. To think otherwise is pure stupidity. However read again the verses above, ALLAH loves those defend His religion against those who exceeded the limits as set by Him. And Throwing insults at His religion is one of those things that exceeded the limit.

I am never the one to start a fight, but as I say Don’t insult my Religion because I don’t insult yours.

RPK is smart enough not to insult Islam, because he understand what I mean.
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written by shamsul siahaan, June 30, 2008 00:28:40
written by akcc81, June 28, 2008 | 13:30:28


If you put the blame on America for every wrong done in the world because of your freaking biased mindset, then give them glory too for the success you attain in this world (They perfercted computers,phones, etc too).

======================================================= ==========================
I thought you’re a gentleman and would be more ethical and avoid being personal. However, I will certainly not play to your tune. When I refer to the Americans as perpetrators of trouble in every corner of the world, I thought it is perfectly understood that I’m referring to the political leadership in America. In this context, I don’t see the need to make references to Bill Gates etc. I studied in the US and still maintain good relationship with a number of Americans who were my college mates then.
======================================================= ======
They perfected airplanes for the Al-Qaeda to ram into the WTC, so the blame goes to them. It seems like the perpetrators/abusers of good technology bears no responsibilities whatsoever for their sick actions.


There are two versions of the WTC incidence. The “official” one which is spewed throughout the world put the blame on Al-Qaeda. Unfortunately, the timing and the recording of the entire drama was “too” perfectly done. Many questions have been asked but no convincing answers have been forthcoming till today. The destruction was so well executed that not a single Jew (the modern version) was killed when the WTC was reduced to rubbles.
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written by shamsul siahaan, June 30, 2008 00:34:47
written by akcc81, June 28, 2008 | 13:30:28

I can't believe you actually support the Talibans justification of their diabolical acts just because the Afghans who were killed were accused of being turn-coats (munafiks of the worst degree). You truly have a Jahiliyah mindset (that which Prophet Mohammed came to abolish). If you put the blame on America for every wrong done in the world because of your freaking biased mindset, then give them glory too for the success you attain in this world (They perfercted computers,phones, etc too).

They perfected bombs, guns for the Talibans to "justifiably" kill the Afghans, so the blame goes to them. They perfected airplanes for the Al-Qaeda to ram into the WTC, so the blame goes to them. It seems like the perpetrators/abusers of good technology bears no responsibilities whatsoever for their sick actions. Going by your reasoning, we can commit any sin in the world and the blame goes to the person who created the means for us to commit our sins. If you keep tracing back the timeline of blame, then ultimately I suppose the one you would point your finger to is God because He created the world. What kind of STUPID/IDIOTIC/ASSININE reasoning that befits that of the Dark Ages!

Go ahead and justify the Holocaust, Russian pogrom, genocides by Serbia and Pol Pot. They are just similar to what the Talibans committed. The weapons used were never created by them anyway, they just bought them from the "real perpetrators".

Mind you, you can justify however you like according to your biasness, but the day will come when we all have come before that Great Judge and each one will be judged according to his deeds by the perfect judgment. I don't see how you can pass the blame on to others for your deeds however you want to justify them.

======================================================= =======

When the Muslim armies began their operations against the oppressive regimes in Spain, Persia and elsewhere, obviously they did not have an easy. But in fighting wars, Islam has strict rules to be followed. Killing is only allowed while fighting, able-bodied against the able–bodied. Of course, there were people who died, but they died fighting.

The killing of old folk, women and children are strictly forbidden. So is the tearing down of residences and destruction of trees, crops and farmland. PoWs, at the appropriate time, would be assigned to duties according to their abilities eg teachers to teaching, engineers to engineering-related work.

This is obviously different from what is practiced by the West and other non-Muslim regimes. Remember, when America dropped the atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? There was no distinction between old folk, women, children and the fighting men in uniform. All of them suffered the same fate. That was not fair. But this is what is being practiced by the non-Muslim powerful nations right from the crusaders time until today, including Israel. That also includes the brutal Tartars led by Kublai Khan. Recent tragedies include Vietnam, Korea, a number of South American countries and Iraq.You can already make a forecast, who will be next on the unending list.

So incidences of massacre by Muslim armies, which you claimed to have taken place are NOT true at all. They are accusations without substance. They are total lies.
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written by teohism, June 30, 2008 07:46:02
Dear P.I.,
When I was growing up, the history books were different. I'm not a qualified expert on history or religion (even direct followers of prophet, fight)and rely on contemporary news and books (even heresay)which can be bias.

So, my comments is again, I emphasize - general comments.

You say that can Muslims laugh at themselves...but will not tolerate laugh when Islamophobics make fun of their religion and Prophet. They get very angry and go on warpath and burn embassies. My point exactly...

RPK points out that Malay/Muslim/Mosque propagate Fear, Anger etc...True?

Also a comment from Taishan earlier (above) :

Want two hands to clap.....read the following verses :-

Quran: 4:89
"They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

8:39 Fight them until there is no dissension and the religion is entirely Allah's.

(Your Quran advocates killing... PERIOD!!!)

Is it any wonder that there is more violence (including in-fighting) in Muslim countries? Oh, I am responding and commenting for the sake of other readers; Muslims and non-Muslims. I'm advocating that they open theirs to SEE beyond the everyday drama - don't hate others becos' they are not in your camp.

YOU should be Laughing at the Paradox... that Islam is a religion of Peace for ALL. Tulis lain, cakap lain, buat lagi lain... YOU don't have to defend Islam...Your Allah can smite me in due time if I'm non-(Shiite, Sunni...whatever you lucky Malays are born-under-becos-you-got-no-choice) Muslim.

So, in short, to end this issue that is going around in circles (so exciting!), I challenge ALL Muslims (& Christians) to reflect on this:

God is Great! He is ALL-Knowing & will punish ALL Un-Believer & Sinners!!! I am but a plain human being with limitation. I will forgive people like teohism who is a fellow human created by Allah & I will not judge him (too much) as I may be following the wrong sect (due to my ethnicity) AND ultimately, His God or whatever 'Way-of-Life' advocates Turning-the-other-Cheek (which is silly) is beneficial to me. I can shout & scream injustice and he's taught to be meek! Huh!

I (lucky me, becos' of my ethnicity) hereby leave the PUNISHMENT to YOU. From today onwards, I admit my limitations! Give me wisdom so that I don't become judge, jury & executioner (another word for terrorist?). I will learn to truly laugh at life with my fellow human being of different faith. No more BUTs...

I will share the term 'Allah' with all your other creation - especially since it is historically proven that the Muslim are not the owner.

In case YOU are testing me by making me a Malay Malaysian.

Amin
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written by Panca Indera, June 30, 2008 09:54:59
Dear Teochism
Refer
I’m not a qualified expert on history or religion So, my comments is again, I emphasize - general comments.

Thank you, for the admission, I can help you if you wish to become expert, Its not difficult and to recognize ones weakness, is the very fist fundamental step in learning.
refer your quotes below
Quran: 4:89
"They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

8:39 Fight them until there is no dissension and the religion is entirely Allah's.
(Your Quran advocates killing... PERIOD!!!)

The word dissension in(8:39) is not the accurate translation of the Arabic word. You must be sharing the same copy as Taisan. Is he from Australia too?
The correct word is persecution or mischiefs.
Muslims are required to wage war. Against people who spread 'mischief'. The positive purpose consists of establishing a state of affairs wherein all obedience is rendered to God alone. This alone is the purpose for which the believers may, rather should, fight. Fighting for any other purpose is not lawful. Nor does it behove men of faith to take part in wars for worldly purposes

I think Australian Muslims must make an effort to find out the author of this translation which is inaccurate.

As for the verse 4:89 the content of the verse was address to the hypocrites and spies that followed the migration of Muslims from Mecca to Medina at the beginning of the Muslim STATE when the Prophet (PBUH) was told to move. Those people were all out to subvert, so the command came on how to deal with them, understand now.
Reference: http://www.tafheem.net/main.html follow the link and go to the relevant chapter and verse.
You still have not answered my questions. A gentleman will debate or argue point for point.

smilies/wink.gif
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written by akcc81, June 30, 2008 15:47:48
Shamsul Siahaan wrote:
I thought you’re a gentleman and would be more ethical and avoid being personal. However, I will certainly not play to your tune. When I refer to the Americans as perpetrators of trouble in every corner of the world, I thought it is perfectly understood that I’m referring to the political leadership in America.

My reply:
You thought many things and you thought wrongly all the time. It's a shame for you to claim to have studied in the US. You were merely avoiding answering my proven "allegations" by diverting attention to the 2 versions of the WTC incident. Have you got nothing to say about the ruthless Talibans MISusing western armaments to annihilate their own people? Is it justified because the people they kill were munafiks as you very well put it?

For your info, the US is not a Christian/Jew country, neither are most European countries, Australia or New Zealand. India is not a Hindu country and China is not a Buddhist/Taosist country. These countries do not recognise a single religion as their official religion. The only countries which have official religions are the Muslim countries. You don't have to get sensitive here because this is a fact you can't deny despite how hard you try. So please don't put the blame that any western countries ever committed on a specific religion's ideology.


Shamsul Siahaan wrote:
But in fighting wars, Islam has strict rules to be followed. Killing is only allowed while fighting, able-bodied against the able–bodied.

My reply:
Guess what, in Christianity, killing cannot be justified no matter what the circumstances are. This is the true Christian teaching. And don't give me the crap that God encouraged killing in the Old Testament. Since you are not a Christian, I don't expect you to understand that the Old Testament is not binding on Christians anymore today. Only the Judaists (Jews) abide by it today. The Christians are bound by the New Testament law and no where in the New Testament does God encourage killing. Please don't give me the crap that George Bush, Tony Blair, Crusaders, etc are Christians. They are Christians by tradition, not conviction. Their actions disqualify their claims as Christians. Claiming a tail to be an extra leg doesn't make a tail a leg. Likewise, claiming to be a Christian, doesn't make one a Christian. By your works shall you be judged. If you don't understand this, so help you God.

Having said that, I cannot deny that there are moderate, fair-minded, non-chauvanistic and true Muslims in the world. I have personally met some myself. But sadly, the majority who claims to be Muslims are not so.
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written by shamsul siahaan, July 01, 2008 14:11:00
written by akcc81, June 30, 2008 | 15:47:48

For your info, the US is not a Christian/Jew country, neither are most European countries, Australia or New Zealand. India is not a Hindu country and China is not a Buddhist/Taosist country. These countries do not recognise a single religion as their official religion. The only countries which have official religions are the Muslim countries. You don't have to get sensitive here because this is a fact you can't deny despite how hard you try. So please don't put the blame that any western countries ever committed on a specific religion's ideology.

======================================================= ========================

You don’t have to tell us all that. We all very well know that the US and most European countries do not declare themselves as Christian/Jew countries. The same goes for India and China. The issue at hand is, a number of these countries, individually or as a group, are constantly acting, behaving and projecting themselves as enemies of Muslims and Islam. Take for example the US and her allies. With the skimpiest of excuse, they went into Iraq with full might and now Iraq is almost completely destroyed. It’ll take at least another 100 to rebuild it. The US and her allies are now doing their utmost to destroy Sudan and Somalia (among the major oil producers in the African continent). Had it not been for the sheer presence of China and France in Sudan (incidentally, both China and France are members of the UN Security Council), the country would have long been destroyed by the US. I have already mentioned Iran umpteen times, which will be the next target. Let me repeat, the few Islamic countries that are being spared are those which subserviently bow down to the US and the West, such as Saudi Arabia, Egypt, the Emirates, to name a few.

I am not being sensitive. But those are facts which you do not care to analyze objectively and without bias.
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written by shamsul siahaan, July 01, 2008 14:11:45
Guess what, in Christianity, killing cannot be justified no matter what the circumstances are. This is the true Christian teaching. And don't give me the crap that God encouraged killing in the Old Testament. Since you are not a Christian, I don't expect you to understand that the Old Testament is not binding on Christians anymore today. Only the Judaists (Jews) abide by it today. The Christians are bound by the New Testament law and no where in the New Testament does God encourage killing. Please don't give me the crap that George Bush, Tony Blair, Crusaders, etc are Christians. They are Christians by tradition, not conviction. Their actions disqualify their claims as Christians. Claiming a tail to be an extra leg doesn't make a tail a leg. Likewise, claiming to be a Christian, doesn't make one a Christian. By your works shall you be judged. If you don't understand this, so help you God.

Having said that, I cannot deny that there are moderate, fair-minded, non-chauvanistic and true Muslims in the world. I have personally met some myself. But sadly, the majority who claims to be Muslims are not so.
======================================================= =============
Crappish, yes, that is to you but the following references are definitely relevant and illustrative. The Crusades, as you must be aware of, were formed upon the urging of Pope Urban II to liberate Jerusalem from Islamic rule and to rid the world of as many non-Christians as possible, both Muslims and Jews. The first and second wave of Crusaders murdered, raped and plundered their way up the Rhine and down the Danube as they headed for Jerusalem. Remember what the Crusaders told the Jews, ”Christ-killers, embrace the Cross or die!" 12,000 Jews in the Rhine Valley alone were killed as the first Crusade passed through
When the crusaders reached Jerusalem and broke through the city walls, they slaughtered all the inhabitants that they could find (men, women, children, newborns). About 6,000 Jews holed up in a synagogue were burnt alive when the Crusaders set fire to the building. The Crusaders also found that about 30,000 Muslims had fled to the al Aqsa Mosque. All of the Muslims were also slaughtered without mercy.
These mass killings were repeated during each of the 8 additional crusades until the final crusade and during that period, more than 200,000 people were killed.
To the Christians, the term “crusade” is a positive term, frequently used to refer to mass rallies, campaigns to win converts and as a form of redemption. The Roman Catholic Church taught that going to war against the "Infidels" was an act of Christian penance. If a believer was killed during a crusade, he would bypass purgatory, and be taken directly to heaven.
The Jews were followers of the teachings of the Old Testaments but the crusading Christians who follow the teachings of New Testaments murdered the innocence. Did they interpret the New Testaments wrongly? What the US and the West are doing is actually just another form of the “Crusades”. Try asking them discreetly for the answer.
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written by akcc81, July 01, 2008 14:42:34
To PI,

WTF do you know about religion? Your argument cannot even withstand the wind. Go back and read what I wrote 10 times at least, for you maybe 100 times won't be sufficient. I never said UK is not a Christian country. What I said was most European countries do not claim to be Christian countries though majority of people living in it are so-called Christians. I anticipate fools like you who will use UK as an example against my argument. Guess what, I'm 100 steps ahead of you, fool.

The phrase "In God we trust" is applicable to any religion in the US cos they are so magnanimous when they coined the phrase, never wanting to hurt those of other faiths. Only sick people like you are selfish enough to mean your own God. BTW, whatever you want to believe, the truth is there is only one God and it's in Him that we trust. That was why the Americans are way smarter than you, they did not say "In the Christian God we trust". Only you people want to divide God into Christian God, Muslim God, Hindu God, etc...

You go to China and get the facts for yourself, how many Chinese are Buddhists/Taoists. I bet you, there are more free-thinkers and probably more Muslims than Buddhists/Taosists.

India's PM was once a Sikh. A Sikh ruling a Hindu country?? Wow, if that's the case this religion is definitely better than Islam cos I doubt Islam would allow a non-Muslim to lead an Islamic country. This only holds true if India is a Hindu country as you ignorantly claimed.

He who laughs last, laughs best. smilies/cheesy.gif smilies/cheesy.gif smilies/cheesy.gif

You are way stupider than I thought.
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written by Panca Indera, July 01, 2008 22:51:33
Dear akcc8
1Refer: WTF do you know about religion?
More than you do, he he!

Quoted from your own handwriting,” I never said UK is not a Christian country.” Unquote.
In other words, you say, “UK is a Christian country, right?”
So! you agree with me. One point for me, zero point for you .

NOW read YOUR OTHER PREVIOUS POSTING, Quote. “For your info, the US is not a Christian/Jew country, neither are most European countries,” unquote.

Translated into Pidgin English, “ Say, say big bird place and many many white man come from, no Jesus pray, pray people”. In French “les pays européens ne sont pas chrétiens . In german “europäische Länder sind nicht christlich “
If your statement is not stating that those “countries are not Christian”, you must be really in need of a good Christian education. ,

TWO points for me, still zero for you .

Enough said, I rest my case, As I said., Go back to proper school will you. He he, he.

And I am still smiling.

“You are way stupider than I thought.”
I hope you don’t mind if I used your line, because, I am still learning, while you have stop.
smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/wink.gif
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written by Panca Indera, July 01, 2008 22:59:19
Dear Akcc81
Refer I doubt Islam would allow a non-Muslim to lead an Islamic country
LEBANON majority muslims,President Christian
Aiyah, study more, lah, You are not so stupid after all smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif
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written by Panca Indera, July 01, 2008 23:07:54
Akcc81
REFER:
You go to China and get the facts for yourself, how many Chinese are Buddhists/Taoists. I bet you, there are more free-thinkers and probably more Muslims than Buddhists/Taosists.
BEEN THERE, DONE THAT,
Guandong, Beijing, Hong Kong, Great Wall, small walls,small brains like you seen them all.
Been to France, Germany, Spain, Uk. USA, Big apple, rotten apples like you
Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi, UAE, India, Pakistan, Indonesia, Singapore,Sri Lanka Australia, New Zealand.One place I have not been to, though, Uranus, Ha, ha , ha. smilies/cheesy.gif smilies/cheesy.gif smilies/cheesy.gif
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written by Panca Indera, July 01, 2008 23:36:15
Fun,Fun, Fun!
hey Akcc81
refer:The phrase "In God we trust" is applicable to any religion in the US cos they are so magnanimous when they coined the phrase, never wanting to hurt those of other faith,

Ahem! “In God we trust" and we do this:
1.Invade Iraq
2.Iran being Threathened
3.Invade Afghanistan (who is NATO?)
4.Palestinians been blockaded and staved

“never wanting to hurt those of other faith”
Ayoyo! Refer above above.

Akcc81, you are making me angry and I’m turning green like the Hulk. Maybe, just maybe I will stick a C4 up your, you know what! (just a thought though) I’ll never do that! You are too sweet and harmless, but An UMNO Malay might
smilies/angry.gif smilies/kiss.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/cheesy.gif smilies/wink.gif
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written by Panca Indera, July 01, 2008 23:53:07
Fun, Fun, Fun!
Hey Akcc81
Refer:Only you people want to divide God into Christian God, Muslim God, Hindu God, etc...
Correction:
1.HINDU GODS (there are many, Major(shiva, Bhrama, Vishnu and minor Gods)
2.Christian God (God the father, the Son and the Holy Spirit). (Ghost is too scary). Holy Trinity. Mary Mother of God, Jesus, Father and Son and sometimes the holy spirit. Try asking any Christian to explain how the three can coexist at the same time. Its a Dogma, you accept without questioning.
3.Allah, Arabic for GOD, singular no plural like God> Gods. Unique!
4.Sure! in Middle East Christian Arabs call God Allah, but they don’t call Jesus Allah, they call Him, Isa AlMasih Ya Rab

What religious institution did you go to. Tanjung Rambutan? Ha.ha.ha
smilies/tongue.gif smilies/tongue.gif smilies/tongue.gif smilies/tongue.gif
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written by Panca Indera, July 02, 2008 00:04:17
Fun,Fun, Fun,
DearAkcc81
refer : Guess what, I'm 100 steps ahead of you, fool
Yep you are absolutely correct! you are 100 steps ahead in the WRONG direction, he, he,he.
Oh by the way, I forgot to tell you i also have been to Japan, South Africa, Canada, Ireland,Thailand, Bangladesh and somemore, but too many to remember.
Can"t remember seeing your face anywhere either. Maybe it was stuck-up between somebody's bum
I do remember this is no holds bar. so excuse the language. if there is prorule and decorum, i would surely follow.
As the Singh in mind your language would have it, " A THOUSAND APOLOGIES!!!1"
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written by RickK, July 04, 2008 17:24:34
To Panca Indera :When you mentioned that just because, the English sing'God save the Queen'they and therefore all of Europe and the USA and all western based societies are Christian, I wonder at the logic.Even if as you suppose they are Christian(which many of them would not admit or are even embarrassed to do so),they are certainly not following the teachings of Christ in which we are to forgive and love our enemies and to turn the other cheek,to pray for them.

As much as a good law-abiding practising Muslim would dissociate from extremists and suicide bombers, professing 'real' Christians would not like be included in the generalisation that all the west is Christian. To my Muslim friends,please,please, the West is secular and POST-Christian and for the record,professing Christians have more in common, as far as moral values are concerned, with Muslims than you think. If they were really followers of Christ they would have expressed more outrage when,in the name of art, they soaked a portrait of Christ in urine.

It is very distressing to Christians to see people insisting on seeing the wars in Iraq,Middle East and Afghanistan as an inter-religious conflict,Christians persecuting Muslim. I think it is naked greed more than anything else.If you really must see it as a clash of cultures, see it as between the secular and the religious.

And as for Shamsul siahaan
to your assertion that only now do Christians use the forbidden word in their worship and that even Indonesians do not use that word,my Alkitab(that's a BM Bible) printed in the 80s already uses NOT ONLY Tuhan to refer to God but that word which you feel you have a patent on.
Also please ask any Indonesian Christian maid what words they use for God.

Christians are not called to be rabble rousers and trouble makers,but to be peacemakers. If you read the words of Christ in the Bible, it's crystal clear.

To others who think that we RPK is having some unfulfilled psychological need satisfied by sycophants who sing his praise, I'd like to say, that he gives a voice we dare not raise. Put yourself in the shoes of the non-Malay/Muslim. If you had any discontent or discomfort with their state of being,could you honestly say you could be public about it?The 'majority' alrady can speak quite loudly,without too much fear of repercussions. It is therefore appropriate for someone from the majority to take up the other side' cause and vice versa. Reading thru the responses, you can't deny that non-Muslims do commend their Muslim/Malay friends too.
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written by teohism, July 04, 2008 18:18:39
Hey P.I. ! fun, fun, fun!

Don't you challenge the Christian God (whatever the denomination/sect)! Oh, NEVERMIND I said that. You can call them any names. They won't burn embassies. It seems ALL but one of Jesus' (the Christ, not to be confused with the swear word smilies/cheesy.gif ) disciples died for their faith (martyred).

I REPEAT - martyred! He, he, he, they didn't die fighting wars and marry young girls & still expect virgins in heaven.(sticking my neck out on this claim as I'm not well informed - Wikipedia is my new Bible! ).

So, in actual fact, you are just tickling the Jesus (may Allah bless Him with many 'female' virgins) followers. You can say '**** You' God! (many has)...most (many) of the believers turn the other cheek.

Yes, WE (non-Muslims) are poking fun at the Malaysian Muslims. Do something constructive! Change those ridiculous 'Articles'. YOU have the power of numbers... THAT is RPK's message.
smilies/cry.gif PS. **** you Pope! Jesus spoke of Kingdom in Heaven not down on earth. Get rid of your crown, throne, jewellery... you are setting a wrong example. **** you again!

Dear P.I. (& other Muslims) - I've thrown the gauntlet on your behalf (I know, I know, you didn't ask me). Spread this atrocity around globally. If Christian start burning embassies and mosque, then you are right/justified in your belief and opinion.

Maybe I draw some cartoons of Jesus naked!!! still more fun, fun, fun...


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written by teohism, July 04, 2008 18:42:51
To P.I. & RickK,

Itu orang yang ade power, semua Kiasu. Depa ade buku 'Art of War' - handbook for politicians and wannabees... (even Anwar!). They change the rules while they can. The rest of the ethnic Malays?... cry babies gets the milk!!!

I blame MCA (being ethnic Chinese) for not doing their jobs (although taking our money). I hope they'll become Christian converts, not the 'born-into' types.

Then, we'll have proper representation. Buddhist don't make good politicians as they have difficulty meditation in Parliment! Anyway, there's front-benchers and back-benchers, NO middle-benchers.

I DON'T blame UMNO. If eventually, they get infiltrated by dark-skin Malays, pink-skin (middle-eastern), or yellow-skin; it's that 'Article 160' AGAIN !!! Hahaha. The dark-skin UMNO very clever... must have the handbook...

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written by teohism, July 04, 2008 18:47:55
Is Pak Lah a fantastic Buddhist since he meditated so easily/much in Parliamnet?

(I can't bring myself to used any other terms of endearment (derogatory name instead of 'Pak')as he's still PM... sigh!!! But I can swear with God's name!!!)
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written by teohism, July 05, 2008 12:04:28
To ALL Malaysians,

Religious Tolerance has a homepage - http://www.religioustolerance.org/

On this site, religious tolerance means:
To extend religious freedom to people of all religious traditions, even though you may well disagree with their beliefs and/or practices. Having tolerance toward another religion does not require you to endorse that faith group's beliefs; it simply indicates your respect for its right to exist and for its membership to hold different beliefs without being oppressed.

Religious tolerance does not require you:
To accept all religions as equally true.

Religious freedom means that you can:
-Without oppression, believe, worship and witness (or practice freedom from belief, worship and witness), as you wish;
-Change your beliefs or your religion; and/or
-Associate with others to express your beliefs.

BUT THEN, there's going to be Peace on Earth. No more Fun, fun, fun.

Anyway, my message is this - God is multi-lingual & don't care whether he's called Allah or Jehovah or Ganesha but, sees our heart. For those who don't believe in Him/Her (Malaysia Today has female readers smilies/smiley.gif ) 'my' asexual God gave them Conscience. If not there's sovereign (& non-sovereign) laws.

Get this - Any human being with half intelligence (with common sense) should reflect on this - God made everyone, even your enemies. God gave them their IQ, their parents (& politicians) and their country. He made U.S., G. Bush (senior & junior) and MADE them bomb Irag. Don't believe me? Use your given intelligence and common sense. If Bush is born in Irag, he'll probably be Saddam !!! Huh!!! If he's born in Malaysia, he'll be a she - Rosmah. Kah kah kah...

Life is Suffering? End Suffering... Om Mane Padme Ommmm...

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written by Panca Indera, July 05, 2008 12:46:31
Dear Teochism

I’ve showed to you with proof, of what I said regarding the translation of verse 8.039 where the correct word is Mischief not Dissension. You have not acknowledge!

Come-on lah , give credit when credit is due. Don’t argue just for argument sake. The purpose of argument or debate is to learn from new information obtained, right?

You yourself admitted,” I'm not a qualified expert on history or religion (even direct followers of prophet, fight)and rely on contemporary news and books (even heresay) which can be bias. So, my comments is again, I emphasize - general comments.

The beauty of learning is knowledge and wisdom can come from anywhere. There is a say, “ Gold is gold even if it is mixed with shit!” So know how to separate them.

You said,” WTF do you know about religion?
I have studied Islam with respect from the different sec/schools. I have studied the Quran translation and meaning from different scholars(Maududi, Yusof Ali, Mamaluke Pickhall, hilali/Muhsin Khan and my present project by al-Sayyid Muhammad Husayn al-Tabataba'i.

I have read the Bible, Old and New Testament , King James Version 1896,authorized by Pope Leo XIII( the best), the Gideon Bible(hopeless)

I’ve read the Torah and Talmud
I have studied Buddhism( different versions)
I have studied Hinduism
I have read theMahabharata(too much and too long)
I read about Zoroastrianism
I have read Confucianism
I have read Taoism and its ancestral worship
I have read the Gospel of Barnabas
I have read Sikhism and About Guru Nanak

So tell me what have you read in your short life span.

Hey P.I. ! fun, fun, fun!
Don't you challenge the Christian God (whatever the denomination/sect)! Oh, NEVERMIND I said that.

When did I challenge the Christian God , I was merely stating facts. What I said about Jesus is in your Bible.
I did not EVER blasphemed God by say what you said, quote,” You can say '**** You' God! “
That’s where we are different.

“Yes, WE (non-Muslims) are poking fun at the Malaysian Muslims.”

No problem with me! Just Don’t poke fun at ISLAM.
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written by Panca Indera, July 05, 2008 12:49:27
Dear all,
Sayings from Imam Ali Nahjul Balagha

40. A wise man first thinks and then speaks and a fool speaks first and then thinks.
41. A fool's mind is at the mercy of his tongue and a wise man's tongue is under the control of his mind

54.There is no greater wealth than wisdom, no greater poverty than ignorance; no greater heritage than culture and no greater support than consultation. smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif
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written by akcc81, July 05, 2008 13:46:14
To PI,

From the Qur’anic point of view, the Jews are descendants of Prophet Abraham, through his son Isaac and grandson Jacob. They were chosen by God for a mission (Qur’an 44:32), and God raised among them many prophets and bestowed upon them what He had not bestowed upon many others (Qur’an 5:20). He exalted them over other nations of the earth (Qur’an 2:47, 122) and granted them many favors.

The Qur’an categorically says that good people are assured of their reward with God (Surah 3, verses 113-115). It further says in Surah 7, verses 159 and 168–170, that among the people of Moses there is a section who guide and do justice in the light of truth. Among them, there are some who are righteous and some who are the opposite. The verses also state that the Creator has tried them with both prosperity and adversity in order that they might turn [to Him]. As to those who hold fast by the Book and establish regular prayer, the verses clarify that they never shall suffer.

Thus it is clear that Muslims have no business to oppose Jewish people or Christians, as such. In fact, Muslims must give special respect to them as People of the Book. Originally, the prophets whom they consider as theirs are equally revered by Muslims.


If thou are in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee…”
Qur’an 10:94

So remember, fools like you have to consult the Jews/Christians because they are the readers of the Book before you.

You are not a true Muslim if you fail to heed the words of the Quran and give respect to the Jews/Christians. You are merely a subject of UMNOism.
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written by Panca Indera, July 05, 2008 16:27:42
Dear Akcc81
Loving it.
From the Qur’anic point of view, the Jews are descendants of Prophet Abraham, through his son Isaac and grandson Jacob. They were chosen by God for a mission (Qur’an 44:32), and God raised among them many prophets and bestowed upon them what He had not bestowed upon many others (Qur’an 5:20). He exalted them over other nations of the earth (Qur’an 2:47, 122) and granted them many favors.

Have you ever wondered why God had chosen them and , bestowed upon them what He had not bestowed upon many others and so on and so on……

Read More, if you don’t know then ask me?

The Qur’an categorically says that good people are assured of their reward with God (Surah 3, verses 113-115). It further says in Surah 7, verses 159 and 168–170, that among the people of Moses there is a section who guide and do justice in the light of truth. Among them, there are some who are righteous and some who are the opposite. The verses also state that the Creator has tried them with both prosperity and adversity in order that they might turn [to Him]. As to those who hold fast by the Book and establish regular prayer, the verses clarify that they never shall suffer.

Great! Praise be to God, you have manage to read more.

Now as to the verse,” As to those who hold fast by the Book and establish regular prayer,”

Since you already know which book that verse came from, tell me , do you know which book it is referencing to? (pissst! It means the Quran not the Bible or Torah)

Muslims have no business to oppose Jewish people or Christians, 100% correct with the provision, as long as those people do not do mischiefs on this earth.

In fact, Muslims must give special respect to them as People of the Book.100% correct again, with the provision, as long as those people do not do mischiefs on this earth.

Originally, the prophets whom they consider as theirs are equally revered by Muslims.

Those Prophets are still reveres by Muslims, don’t think that they are not. There are 25 prophets that are mentioned in the Quran and Muslims are supposed to remember them if they read the Book. There are a further 123,975 prophets and over 300 messengers of God over a period of time. who knows some went to China and India as well.
cont....
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written by Panca Indera, July 05, 2008 16:35:48
cont....
If thou are in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee…”
Qur’an 10:94


I say man
Ayah! Still wants to twist the facts don’t just read one verse 10.94 and translate. Read the previous and the one after lah. Then it make more sense.010.093
010.093
YUSUFALI: We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place, and provided for them sustenance of the best: it was after knowledge had been granted to them, that they fell into schisms. Verily Allah will judge between them as to the schisms amongst them, on the Day of Judgment.
010.094
YUSUFALI: If thou were in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.
010.095
YUSUFALI: Nor be of those who reject the signs of Allah, or thou shalt be of those who perish.

Let me educate you a little. The verse is from chapter title Yunus (the one who was swallowed by the fish) but most of the story in the chapter is about Prophet Moses, the pharaoh and the exodus of the Jews from Egypt.
The verses above is about the Jews who after being saved from the pharaoh, decided they worshipped the golden calf instead of God and still created mischief among themselves.arrogant and stubborn.
So the Verse 10:94 is directed to the Jews and Christians in Prophet Muhammad’s time who doubted the True teaching of Islam to check their own books i.e. Torah and Injil about the coming of Muhammad which is mentioned so many times.

That’s my boy, the gist of what the verse,” , then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee,” meant.

Oh Oh Iam going into a trance now.
I swear by Allah, that in King James Bible printed in 1906 that I have in my possession, in the of Gospel of John it states
"But when the Comforter comes, whom I shall send you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me". John 15.26
Muhammad Al Amin. The spirit of truth i.e the trustworthy. (there are many more but one is enough, for surely for a disbeliever, his heart is closed and he cannot see the truth)

Out of trance

Ok let me put to your simple mind, Suppose teacher said study Geography on Japan for tomorrows test. You study china instead and failed, while those who study japan passed. Who is to be blame?
You or the Teacher?

You are not a true Muslim if you fail to heed the words of the Quran and give respect to the Jews/Christians.
Sticks and stones may hurt my old bones, but words will never harm me(especially from cock a doodle do!
Try harder! Get real solid facts this time.
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written by akcc81, July 06, 2008 15:51:46
To PI,

But when the Comforter comes, whom I shall send you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me. (John 15:26)



The word Comforter means the Holy Spirit that God sent to the people, which was recorded in the book of Acts. Please don't twist the words in the Holy Bible to your advantage. The Comforter is in no way Mohammed. If you claim it to be Mohammed then the Mormons will claim it to be Joseph Smith.

That's why you did not heed the Quran. If you are not sure, don't make stupid assumptions. Ask the reader of the Book before the Quran, namely the Christians and the Jews. See what I mean, when you who claim to practise Islam do not practise according to the Quran.

You want to know whether the teacher or the student is to blame? You go ask Shamsul Siahaan. He will tell you that the teacher is to blame because the teacher held the exam. Read his previous posts about the Americans who are to blame for providing the Talibans the weapons to kill the Afghans.

FYI, you who are uneducated. The phrase is: Sticks and stones may BREAK my bones, but YOUR words will never HURT me, arsehole... don't waste my time educating you on simple English. You don't deserve to educate me on religion!
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written by akcc81, July 07, 2008 09:24:31
To PI,

The arsehole I meant, that you claimed you have, was your gab. Thank you for clarifying that you indeed have one. That's where all the waste comes out from. smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif You are right, I don't have one like yours.

If you don't know about other religion, please refrain from making stupid conclusions. I know you have an arsehole, but please keep that to yourself. And don't think because you have the majority in this country, you can say whatever you like about other races and religions.

Jesus Christ did come and was crucified on the cross for all men. It's recorded in the Bible (which your Quran claims to be credible and you should consult if you are in doubt). His crucifixion was also recorded by early historians, which I believe you will attempt to cast a doubt on their writings later on. Off the record, with you people, you think that only what's written by Muslims are credible despite being slanderous and history-twisting. Please remember that Christianity came at least 600 yrs before Islam. If there is any party that's deem incredible, it only can be Islam.

Justin Martyr wrote:
And the expression "They pierced my hands and feet," was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were fixed in His hands and feet. And after He was crucified, they cast lots upon His vesture, and they that crucified Him parted it among them. And that these things DID HAPPEN, you can ascertain from the ‘Acts of Pontius Pilate’ (First Apology 35:7-9, translation from Rev. Alexander Roberts D.D. and James Donaldson LL.D editors, The Anti Nicene Fathers, Vol 1, WM B. Eerdman Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan, p. 174-75).

Early Greek historian Thallus wrote on a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 1smilies/cool.gif.

Early historian Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of his followers.

Early historian Josephus wrote: "At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His conduct was good and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his CRUCIFIXION, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."

Early non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus), did “magic,” led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for them (Babylonian Talmud) in Judea (Tacitus), but claimed to be God and would return (Eliezar), which his followers believed - worshipping Him as God (Pliny the Younger).

In conclusion, there is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both in secular and Biblical history. Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the 12 apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ. People will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.

Remember, non-Christians confirming the facts in the Bible. That gives more credibility to the Bible and the Christian faith. What have you got for Islam?

You people lack faith that's why you could not comprehend the 3-in-1 Godhead. Well, H20 can come in 3 different forms. If you can comprehend this then your understanding of this plus a little faith will allow you to understand the Godhead. Please don't attempt to rebut me by saying I'm suggesting God is made of molecules/H2O.
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written by Panca Indera, July 07, 2008 09:49:32
Dear Teochism
Someone put this in an earlier post…….. and the same someone also put.
“THEREFORE, FEAR ALLAH AS HE SHOULD BE FEARED, AND DIE NOT EXCEPT IN A STATE OF ISLAM, ……..THOSE WHO TRULY FEAR ALLAH AMONG HIS SERVANTS, ARE THOSE WITH KNOWLEDGE”.

WILL YOU NOT FIGHT PEOPLE WHO VIOLATED THEIR OATH? PLOTTED TO EXPEL THE APOSTLES AND BECAME AGGRESSIVE BY BEING THE FIRST (TO ASSAULT) YOU? DO YOU FEAR THEM? NAY IT IS ALLAH WHOM YE SHOULD MORE JUSTLY FEAR, IF YOU BELIEVE?


Wonder who that someone was?

Why so simple Dos & Don'ts can be misinterpreted and debated?

Because, disbelievers like you refuse to acknowledge the divine truth.

MCA Jihad goes like this: All young & able bodied members & their sons ARE ENCOURAGE to marry young able bodied Malay girls (Make sure that they're not Indons first). Your off-spring from this long-term Jihad is for the sake of future non-Malay Malaysians. You must work hard so that you can afford to have 4.

No problem and most welcome. Just make sure to chop off the head! I mean circumcise the old Johnny than say the Shahada, (No God except ALLAH and Muhammad (PBUH) is His last Messenger. Off you go! Be careful, don't try to do until the swelling has gone!

(Humility has a place even in your Heaven!). 100% correct, That’s why Muslims stick their arses in the air and their foreheads to the ground 17 times everyday. Its to teach humility.
Me, humility????
I dress simple, I eat simple and I live simple, but when I hear people like you who shoots his mouth without engaging his brain, I get pissed off!
When I read article from people like you who pissed standing up and spraying all over the place, I get angry.

So my dear learned to be at peace ( not pissed )with yourself and how to control you anger.
I am at peace with myself and my Creator and people, who are at peace with me. But for the mischief makers, I will fight them when I can,where I can and whichever way I can. Right too much for your brain now?
Go and Play Play! Go!
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written by Panca Indera, July 07, 2008 11:57:01
Dear Akcc81
Please read and try to comprehend. The verses below

[2.87] And most certainly We gave Musa the Book and We sent apostles after him one after another; and We gave Isa, the son of Marium, clear arguments and strengthened him with the holy spirit, What! whenever then an apostle came to you with that which your souls did not desire, you were insolent so you called some liars and some you slew.
[3.55] And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.
• [3.59] Surely the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was.
4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
[4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.

How on Earth or by Heavens; name can Jesus be GOD, the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost.
Lets see God could spit Himself into Three.
No, No he transformed into one or the other when required to look after some matters or to impress the human as that He will bear their sins. As God laid dying on the Cross after being nailed on his palms and feet. Jesus, God the son cried to God the Father, “Why has Thou forsaken me”
So God was talking to himself in the Dual senses as I’m talking to myself.
Then God the son was put to rest in a sepulcher and four days later God the Son came out and appeared before Mary and Said Goodby as He is going to heaven to join God his father who is actually him but decided to come down in the first place to pay for the sins of Man.

Bravo!!1 really fantastic story. Paul could not do better than that, an the sad thing is Billions believe in them! Never mind we will see in the next live who will be victorious.

As far As I can see, Muslims are in a Win Win situation, i.e. even if we lose, we will win. But you guys, I don’t think so. I supposed that’s why you take Insurance policy like Chritian Buddhist or something. JUST in CASE.
WHO are YOU FOOLING?
GEE its tough carrying a fight on two fronts
Appreciate some support there!,I will continue nevertheless

note: I may say it differently, but you understand, thats the point
Sure I have an arse hole, thats where all the waste come out.
You my dear have'nt got one. So you are full it shithead!!11 smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif
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written by shamsul siahaan, July 07, 2008 12:18:28
written by RickK, July 04, 2008 | 17:24:34

And as for Shamsul siahaan
to your assertion that only now do Christians use the forbidden word in their worship and that even Indonesians do not use that word,my Alkitab(that's a BM Bible) printed in the 80s already uses NOT ONLY Tuhan to refer to God but that word which you feel you have a patent on.
Also please ask any Indonesian Christian maid what words they use for God.

There you are, if the Indonesians, with their society more open than Malaysia, started to use Allah to mean Tuhan, besides the use of the word Tuhan (to mean God) in their version of the Bible, only in the 80’s, then I’m not way off asserting that the use of Allah in Malay Bibles in Malaysia is a new development which is highly questionable. You and I and the rest out there very well know the use of Allah, is a very sensitive issue to the Muslims/Malays. So, why insist on pursuing the matter now? This is the issue. If those people involved in the production of the Malay version of the Bible can wait until only recently to use Allah instead of just Tuhan, why can’t wait further, to avoid unnecessary disputes. And this is more in accordance to the teachings of Jesus, isn’t it? I quote you,”Christians are not called to be rabble rousers and trouble makers, but to be peacemakers. If you read the words of Christ in the Bible, it's crystal clear.”

Being Malaysians, why can’t producers of the Malay version of the Bible stick to the use of Tuhan (the Malay word for Allah), just as the English version use of God (and never Allah), or the German version use of Gott, or the Greek version use of Theos, or the Latin version use of Deus, or the Aramaic/Syriac use of Alaha or the Hebrew version use of Elohim or Yahweh, to accommodate the Malaysian situation? Going to court would just be inviting more of distrust between the Christian community and the Muslims.

By the way, as I have mentioned earlier, Bibles of the various Christian denominations in Arabic language use Allah to denote God. Nobody is complaining.

======================================================= =========================
To others who think that we RPK is having some unfulfilled psychological need satisfied by sycophants who sing his praise, I'd like to say, that he gives a voice we dare not raise. Put yourself in the shoes of the non-Malay/Muslim. If you had any discontent or discomfort with their state of being,could you honestly say you could be public about it?The 'majority' alrady can speak quite loudly,without too much fear of repercussions. It is therefore appropriate for someone from the majority to take up the other side' cause and vice versa. Reading thru the responses, you can't deny that non-Muslims do commend their Muslim/Malay friends too.



The situation is relative and is applicable both ways. The Malays/Muslims admittedly also have their discontent and discomfort vis-à-vis the other Malaysian communities. But for the general benefit of everybody, we refrained ourselves from harbouring or pursuing them, with the exception of those who have only their personal/political agenda. Lest you are not familiar with this, why don’t you go to Kelantan and experience it personally.


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written by Panca Indera, July 07, 2008 12:43:11
To tell you the truth, Teochism,
You spewed so much crap to begin with, I don’t know where to start to clean it for you.
Maybe I’ll just let you wallow in the muck and be satisfied.

Your proof & truth differs from others … that’s why there’s the Quran & the Bible (many translation as it should be accessible, albeit diluted, but what the heck, it’s for commoners/public) - you proved nothing to me yet.

Diluted
means not pure or mixed with other material, not my words, yours. So your information is not reliable, comprende! You ve got to be thick as a rasher for not understanding your own logic.


2. You replied (taunt) to Akcc81:
Sticks and stones may hurt my old bones, but words will never harm me(especially from cock a doodle do!...
Muslims (You) are in denial.

You are damned right! All Muslims denied that God is three and Three is One. Great men think alike, Fools seldom differ!

Should I draw some cartoons of you & Muhammad?
You can draw cartoon of me, but I forbid you from Drawing Muhammad (PBUH) if you know what is good for you.
Is your blood boiling already?
No way man, not from Idiots and shit-heads who are Islamophobic.


My question/response (& presumably RPF’s article): - Who made you & the rest of the indoctrinated Muslim, the judge? The sermons in the mosque-of-the-world that encourages you, did!
EH! Lu Tanya sama gua, bagi can lah gua jawab, Ini sendiri jawab, bodoh punya olang!

My comments (thanks P.I. for above text): Muslims are indoctrinated in the mosque that their God is the only God
(of course! Don’t the Christians or Jews say the same)
Which monolithic religion does not claim its god is the right One, Dummy!

and that they have the rights to use aggression if the circumstances are right.

If somebody brutalized and murder your sister, mother, father or brother , do keep quiet and do nothing. You are more stupid than I think, if you do nothing!

Muslims see all other Muslims as brothers and sisters(that what the Quran says over and over)

cont.....
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written by Panca Indera, July 07, 2008 12:51:07
Because Muslims/human has different mentalities,
Of course they do. Just like other Protestants, Methodists, Lutherans, CE and so forth. Gay priests and Bishops!!!

they NATURALLY FIGHT among themselves and with others.

Fighting is a natural Human animal instinct and behavior in most living thing. Even pigs fight!No?

Why? Because the Muslim terrorist interpret the Quran to have given them PERMISSION ! Even you agree BUT haven’t found the right jihad or have the balls for it. That’s why RPK is a hero. I see your logic is: what you don't see you don't believe. Listen brother, You think this is not Jihad fending off idiots like you from insulting my Religion?

Just because You don’t see, doest not means its not happening. Oh!I forgot, you believe in Jesus Christ because you can see your God being cruxified on the cross and you carry it on your neck all the time even when you go to the toilet, which is an unclean place, no respect for your God, do you?. Tell me its not true!

My suggestion to God/Allah: Do your own dirty job! YOU ARE? Oh, I see.
You sent Hitler for the Jews and Bush for the Muslims! Oh, they didn’t know it… Hey God, since I’m chatting with You, did you send Jesus? Muhammad? YOU did! Oh, YOU made EVERYONE… I get it…

AH! I just love to argue with six years old, It make it much easier.

If I may borrow from Eleanor Roosevelt “ Great minds discuss ideas”
“ Average minds dicuss events” “ Small minds discuss people”

Teochism! You definitely falls into the “Small mind category.”

Maybe Akcc81 and your brains put together will be even steven with the chimp, I mean Champ.

I have figure out why the Malay Muslims are so uptight with Israel & the Jews. It's the indoctrination & hate messages that RPK wrote about.

All hail to RPK!!! Hoohaahh! Salute!

RPK is proposing that more Malaysian and Muslims join him in his struggle for justice.
P.I., you know this to be true. Don’t fight it… let go… let go… Peeeaaaacccceeee…. Ommmmm (Oops!, sorry-lah, you’re not a Muslim Buddhist).

Hey man! I’a all for Peace and Living together in Harmony! Just don’t insult my religion and GOD as I said before!

You can insult Muslims if they are hypocrite or corrupted or Sodomists, no problem, but if you want a fight on your hand Go head.

By the way, I don't gamble with my religion, Islam for me past, present and future.
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written by Panca Indera, July 07, 2008 14:00:49
Let me try to explain the true Christianity, for the benefit of those who wants to learn the truth.

1.Jesus (BPUH) NEVER EVER Preached THAT HE IS GOD, OR SON OF GOD!
2.He always addressed God as Thy father in heaven.
3.Jesus was sent by God (Jehovah, Yahweh , what ever you want to call God) to bring the Jews to the straight part after their priests have corrupted the religion. No different nowadays as to some of the deviation teaching nowadays.
4.He was never crucified to the cross, only criminals were crucified by the romans, And definitely the roman occupier of Jerusalem did not see Jesus as a threat or criminal. It’s the Jewish priests /Rabbis who were against Jesus for disrupting their commercial trading on religion ( and the modern day Christians are licking up to the Jews, Shishhh!). Don’t believe me, just look at Bush/Blair/ and EU co. sucking up to Israel.
5.These Priests wanted Jesus dead by hook or by crook.
6.Jesus was taken alive to to be with God until such time when he will come back with the 12th Imam or Imam Mahdi for the Ultimate Jihad.
7.The guy that was nailed to the cross was Judas the traitor, that’s why he was never heard after the crucifixion. If there were they were false.
8.They early Christians were Unitarians (believe in One God not Three.)
9.Paul the Jew wanted to sell the religion ( meaning make it acceptable to the pagan Romans) so he made some changes to the religion.

Note: If you study pagan roman religion, which is borrowed from the Greek, They have God the father (ZEUS father of men) god the son (Hercules) God the mother (HERA) and numerous minor gods and goddesses.
10So Pual invented the whole concept or Trinity which he himself was confused at times.
11It was at the council of NICEA in 325 that the Unitarian were defeated by the Trinitarians lead by Emperor Constantine
12So from that time onwards its is a Christian dogma that they must believe in the Trinity, otherwise there is no Salvation.
13Think deeply, even the other sects have done away with Confessions , because they found it to be ridiculous to tell another human of your sins and that person will pardon your sin on behalf of God. Does that make sense.
14Check the internet all the infos are there, its whether you, are brave enough to take the plunge and change, or stay in your cocoon and make believed world where you can continue doing what you always do.

You have been warned!

I have eaten the bread and drank fro the chalice and I have crossed myself and my legs several times, I have drank the holy water and spoke to Jesus in the Church, He did not reply. He just look down with sad face as if feeling pity for me. So I said good-bye smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif
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written by teohism, July 07, 2008 21:19:51
Dear P.I.,

You are warning me against what? You said - Sticks & stones can break my bones but words cannot harm me…

What are we doing here? Ballet? Fencing? It’s war with words. OBVIOUSLY, you are
missing the plot. YOU feel that YOUR GOD is threatened but agree that our God is the same.

God doesn’t need you or the rest to defend HIM! Really! Can you see now the ego that is P.I. and the bigotry that your doctrine allows you?

Because you and the rest are so uptight about Muhamad (you dare not mention his name or Jesus without a #@&???) and willing to be martyr WITHOUT REALISING that the rest of the non-Muslim don’t give a FCUK (6 yrs old & still cannot spell)

You and the global Muslim have become a global laughing stock and feel insulted!

Don’t know why?

Peace but ‘I’ll kill you IF…

GET IT!

I repeat - for all the potential terrorist especially the Malay Muslims in Malaysia. The mosque has been dishing out hate messages while the rest of the faith did not.

Seriously, I’ve read your other posting which is full of Quranic quotes. What the point? RPK suggest that the root problem is IN the global Muslim sermons. You agreed, BUT to what? I propose that it’s as fundamental as the living examples of the prophets and their followers… (original trail)

What’s your opinion on the Muhamad cartoons? What’s your stance on the Jews and Israel? On G. Bush? On Osama? Is it your own???

Shame on you. Old but not wise. Listen to the wisdom of this 6 yrs old babe -
Stop quoting others & start writing your own. I’m trying my own.
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written by Panca Indera, July 08, 2008 22:15:31
Dear Teochism and Akcc81
Sorry for the delay, its not my fault.
I have been to a Chinese temple and seen huge figurines in funny costumes. On one side the have nice white smiley faces and on the other side they have ugly black faces with fierce and angry expressions. Scare the shit out of me, to tell the truth.
So I asked the gate keeper why the angry black faces. He said ……….

To those who complaint about the call to Prayers are too loud and disturbing the peace. I am complaining about the mess by the road side that those people make when they make they offering to the hungry Ghosts. Why don’t they do in their own compound?
Typical, Its ok to mess up other peoples’ properties as long as not theirs. Shame on you!

And who not? Cannot, lah bad Fung Shui for family maaa…

Why do they have mirror at the front door of their houses.?
To scare the shit out of the ghosts who will be looking at their own reflections as they approached the front door. Kah kah kah ha, ha, he,. he. Vely clever maa..

Do you see them making offering by the roadside and messing the environment in Aussie land?
No way , the Aussie Police will barbecue them.. Are the Malays nice or not, for letting such things.

Then they burn huge and monstrous sticks (whot’s the name) that not only pollute the air, but gives out repulsive smell that’s chocking others to death.(must be a conspiracy to kill the opposition, Malays and Indians watch out!)

Then comes CNY, now it’s the noise pollution, bang, bang, bang everywhere, until past midnight, Don’t they know that there are people trying to sleep!
Now all the stupid Malays and Indians follow suit and make loud noises at every festival. Really stupid, burning monies that could be given to charities.

These people are forever making noises, even when they speak they have to shout.
Everywhere you go you are bombard by the noise and the smell and unplesentaries.

The malays ,are so quiet, that you don’t even notice they are around. The other Group,as soon as they appear all hell breaks loose.

Then, no creature under the sun is safe, Everything and everything is edible, monkey brains, turtles, snakes, frogs, monitor lizards etc etc…. Nothing is sacred . All is Halal, even selling your own mother. Theses are the people who tell Malays they are Sombong and rude and inconsiderate, while they are the good and well behave ones. Pegi-LAh
Its them who are abusing that privilege. Go fly kite.

I’am not finished yet, but I will save for later
cont....
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written by Panca Indera, July 08, 2008 22:17:08
cont.....
Just a reminder. Who started the bad mouthing, definitely not me. Sure it creates animosity. Well who started calling Islam Barbaric?
Wasn’t me. I am just retaliating. You want me to stop, you have to stop and retract your mischievous ranting.

So, stop picking on Islam the religion. We can go on or we can stop this shit and call a ceasefire,

We still can respect and tolerate, each other, even though we don’t have to like each other. That’s the beauty of tolerance. Its two ways like you said.
Show respect to my beliefs and I will show respect to yours.


Now back to WAR. You and your twisted thinking you Christian Buddhist!

1.Tell me who created ADAM and EVE and what materials were they created from?
2.Did Adam have a father since he was created from earth.
3.Jesus was conceived by Marry who was virgin. Who was Jesus father?
4.If Jesus is God, Did God went into Mary’s womb to be imbedded as a fetus than an unborn child ?
5.Who was in charge of the Creation when the Creator was in the womb?
6.What was God had for nourishment while in the Womb.
7.While God was growing up from a baby until his mission who was in charge, the one upstairs or the one on the ground?
8.How did the holy spirit inseminated Virgin Mary?
9.Jesus was baptised by John, so God was baptize to clean his sin and be admitted in the church, but then there was no church yet?
10.Jesus was a Jewish God then?
11.But the Jews have their own God. SO Whose God is Jesus?
12.Jesus is the Christian God, so is the Holy Spirit and so is God the Father who is Jesus, but then again actually His Father.

Read about Paul(Saul). He wasn’t even one of the 12 Disciples. He was a vision, probably hallucinating because of thirst on his way to Damsacus.

Anyway, I will take a break and continue, God willing?

SO what’d ya say. Stop or Continue?” by the way so some respect to the your God’s symbol lah. That the Cross oof before shitting yourselve. show some respect.

We muslims will never show disrespect to Allah, the Quran and our Prophet PBUH.

Only to people like you who showed disrespect FIRST.

Our God is not the same . Yours is three in One. Mine only One.

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written by Panca Indera, July 08, 2008 23:09:01
Teochism you Christians/Buddhist nincompoop,
Ever wonder why there is no original Bible left that can be traced to the Diciples time?
Have you ever question why there is no two same copies by different publishers at different time that have same wording?
Have you ponder, or tried to get the very original Aramaic language Bible and read its translation or exegesis?
Did you know the Muslims Quran in its Arabic text is the very same texts, word for word letter for letter and hypernations , consonants and dots also. You pick a copy of any Quran from any bookshop in the world and count the Arabic words , there are exactly 6666.(yep that’s right its from the anti-christ , kah kah, kah).

By the way More and more whities are forsaking Christianity and more and more African are becoming christians. Don’t you thing Jesus should change his skin color?

DId you know that your God jesus was Circumsized?
That makes your God a Jew or Muslim, because they are curcumsized, just like you God.
Why would God be circumsized while His believers don't?
Is it that all Christians are unclean and does not follow their own God?

I mean its down right racist isn’t it to have a WHITIE as GOD while the majority of the followers are blacks.
No wonder the Africans are forever feeling being put down by the Whities. Why?

Is the Christian God siding with the Caucasians because of the same skin tone?
Ever wonder You God choose to be a Caucasian and not a Chinaman? or an Indian or a Malay?

Be nice isn't it three in One.
For Muslims, Our God, not only he cannot be seen by those who hearts are blind but he does not go by any color. His followers picked green for the flag.

So wE have been environmentally friendly since its inception!
1.Our flag Color is GREEN( now everybody wants to be associated with green, even you). Environment friendly.
2.When we die, we bury our dead so that the circle of life can continue, All the creatures underground say thanks as they feed on the putrid flesh.
3.You guys burn, incinerate and pollute the atmosphere, no wonder global warming, kah, kah ,kah.
4.Even before goining to hell you are already roasted. Kah, kah

I know, I know I am mean!!! saying nasty things, I will stop, If you stop Insulting my religion. But you haven’t.

Fun Fun Fun!
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written by Debbie, July 09, 2008 06:49:39
Dearest P.I.,

Your indoctrination is too deep. What tolerance!

How can I insult your God? I'm not. I'm insulting MINE. Oh I get it, by insulting God, I'm insulting Allah! FCUK to Allah too. (French Connection United Kingdom).

Sorry, you are too far gone to get the simple message. By the way, I'm NOT a true Christian either! Of course Jesus is a Jew. So what!; Muslim says Jesus is a Muslim. I say Muhamad is a Christian. Would and should you feel so offended that you want to start a Jihad? I'm not joking about the cartoons. Attached a pix of yourself & I get you into a 3-some (trinity) with Jesus and Muhamad!

So, it only confirms that Muslim are either cry babies or bigots. Which? I know the politicians are intentional crying for blood! Anwar in his student days was so pro-Malay that ALL chinese Malaysian hated him.

Still don't get it? Ok. in pidgin Malay then: You cakap sama saya boleh, tapi I cakap sikit balik, you mau hentam saya!

Sound like UMNO? BN? How is it that you agree with RPK but defend and rationalise for the rest of the Muslim why it is permitted under certain circumstances to retaliate aggressively.

So I repeat myself again. Under no circumstances would a true Christian or Buddhist retaliate.

Many issue in Malaysia is based on these stance. For example, one can become a Muslim but almost impossible to get out! Catholics did this in the Spanish Inquisition.

I feel sorry for you...ummm NOT! My Malay friends have repeatedly said that we the non-Malays are the lucky ones. Trade places P.I. ? I'll be smart to get all the benefits and still eat Bakuteh.
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written by Debbie, July 09, 2008 07:16:31
Who am I?

Akcc81, or Teohism or Debbie?

In defence of the Trinity (not that it really needs defending. Correctly put: to clarify the Trinity to nincompoop 2,000 years ago):

God - the Father. God by ALL religious understanding is Great. He (It) is the Universe and everthing in it. He (It) said to Moses - I AM THAT, I AM. It is everything that the human can see or comprehend.

God - the Son.
God can talk to our human ear or thru' dreams or 'burning bush' (not the G. Bush). Some so called prophets are just suspected schizo!, maybe Muhamad becos' he cakap satu, buat lain. If God wants to come down to earth, IT requires a human body. This physical God is as human as the rest such that God can now claim to be physically human. Not touch by God. He gets erections too!

God - the Holy Spirit/Ghost.
All human has aura, chakra or whatever you call this energy in your particular faith. This Spirit descended into Jesus and left him at a later stage. Why? He wouldn't be able to be considered human if he's got super power! Hence, defeat the purpose in coming down to earth; to experience humanities.

He was able to influence a group of followers/commoners to become true martyr without resorting to violence.

No need to promise 72 virgins-lah. Heaven got sex parties-kah? Female terrorist get 72 male virgins? What about gay ones?

Muslim brothers... chill out!!!

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written by Panca Indera, July 09, 2008 09:45:40
Dear ALL and Teochism especially
Lets revisit the stupid and idiotic teochims comments over the period and recollect what he said.

1.This leaves the vocal & barbaric religion and it's followers that seems to be turning over backwards trying to justify their actions with fear tactics
2.I didn't perceive history... it is written in the Quran.(he is saying that Islam advocates War which I have proof to be negative, But he id too stubborn and arrogant to admit)
3.How is it that a religion that preaches peace has it's founder (& wife and family) going on holy wars?
Note:Another dumb statement, Muhammad was not the founder of Islam. Neither was Jesus. They were the Messengers of God AlMighty. Its just the Christian got the messages mixed –up.
4.My comments of course are my personal views and observations. (It seems to me) .. Shows that you are Uneducated because you views and observations are unsubstantiated and badly flawed due to arrogance and prejudiced. Even you explanations were without facts, just fictions when cross-checked. E.g the verses regarding wars and dissension.
5.Cannot accept my observation? Tough luck! (inability or unwillingness to learn). Another symptom of arrogance.
6. (ok, ok, I’ve no supportive facts on this… another example shooting his/her mouth with the brain disengaged. Symptom of addictive idiocy.
7.Even prophets ARGUE & FIGHT!!! Again unsubstantiated statement, unlike mind which provides rational proofs like the above.
8.Some of us are lucky (by nature) not to be affected by other's comments - some ARE affected because of indoctrination. He is using Luck (which is outside our conscious, physical and logical thought process and CONTROL) as an excuse for his superior beliefs( confused!) ando blame my reaction to comments as indoctrination( Even after providing factual details and proofs which he did not reply or counter comment)
9.I'm a Chinese Malaysian, Christian Buddhist living in Australia. Most of us Overseas Malaysian are more liberal and vocal. Why? Far from 'Homeland Securities'!
10.I'm not a qualified expert on history or religion (even direct followers of prophet, fight)and rely on contemporary news and books (even heresay)which can be bias.
11.(Your Quran advocates killing... PERIOD!!!) ISLAMOPHOBIC PERIOD.
12.I (lucky me, becos' of my ethnicity) hereby leave the PUNISHMENT to YOU. From today onwards, I admit my limitations! Again using Luck to play safe, but the choose Christian/Buddhist to play safe.
13.Still expect virgins in heaven.(sticking my neck out on this claim as I'm not well informed - Wikipedia is my new Bible! ).
14.Yes, WE (non-Muslims) are poking fun at the Malaysian Muslims. Again ISLAMOPHOBIC. Does not have the knowledge or intelligent to differentiate between Good and Hypocritical Muslims
cont....
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written by Panca Indera, July 09, 2008 09:48:06
cont....
15.Anyway, my message is this - God is multi-lingual… Teochism you are STUPID!
16.By the way, I'm NOT a true Christian either!.. Teochism dropped the CLANGER!!!. Now he admits he is not A TRUE CHRISTIAN.

IT PROOFS BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT THAT Teochism IS A HYPOCRITE WHO IS OUT TO CREATE MISCHIEFS.

So it is the duty of all Muslims who believes in the Quran as the Words of ALLAH to fight him until he stops his mischiefs.

Fissabillilah.

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written by Panca Indera, July 09, 2008 09:49:24
Debbie you are next!
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written by Panca Indera, July 09, 2008 09:53:43
So sorry Teochism for the bit about"
16.By the way, I'm NOT a true Christian either!.. Teochism dropped the CLANGER!!!. Now he admits he is not A TRUE CHRISTIAN.
it's Debbie. So Debbie is an Idiot too!
A thousand apologies. smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif
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written by shamsul siahaan, July 09, 2008 13:20:22
written by Panca Indera, July 08, 2008 | 22:17:08

Read about Paul(Saul). He wasn’t even one of the 12 Disciples. He was a vision, probably hallucinating because of thirst on his way to Damsacus.

Not only was he suffering from hallucination due to the thirst in the desert, he was also one of those breakaway Jews who have been incessantly insulting and deriding Jesus (PBUH) during his lifetime on earth.
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written by shamsul siahaan, July 09, 2008 14:49:06
written by Debbie, July 09, 2008 | 07:16:31

In defence of the Trinity (not that it really needs defending. Correctly put: to clarify the Trinity to nincompoop 2,000 years ago).
======================================================= ===========================
God does not need play games by appearing as the holy son and ghost in order to compel humans to believe in His Existence and Power. Surely, you know, God only need to command, “Be it!!” and whatever that He wanted created or done would be accomplished. God created the Universe and life in it. No need to play hide and seek.

A lot has been said about the Roman emperors’ tireless efforts to suppress the true teachings of Jesus. These included the engagement of the services of the wayward, including Saul (who later changed his name to Paul, or did he really?). Finally, they managed to change the Unitarian teachings of Jesus to the Trinitarian ideology, based on the Roman Sun-god beliefs. The coffin was finally nailed at the council of NICEA in 325.

Surely, you know, this resulted in the split among the believers of the teachings of Jesus. No need for me to go into details. But the last one that I can clearly recall is the dropping of the word “Roman” from the Roman Catholic religion. Don’t really know why, perhaps you can tell us?
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written by teohism, July 09, 2008 15:33:19
Dear P.I.,

Spot on about the Mischief!

God made me what I am. He told me to better myself and also to turn-the-other-cheek. He gave me a brain to use. Must account for something if you are still replying to me. Hahaha.

Alas, he didn't give me enough grey matter or educational opportunities like he gave to the Malay Malaysian. Yalah, he put me in Malaysia, but didn't make me a Melayu.

He gave others better status. And he gave them better (blind) followers...

Did someone wrote that God doesn't play games? Really? All He needs to do is show Himself and EVERY will believe. Someone should have ask Datuk Azhar Mansur his personal experience. God must be sarcastic with a dark streak to let us fight about Him for so long.

Maybe He showed Himself and it's in the form of Sai Baba. BTW, he claims to be a Jesus reincarnate (sort of). Luckily for the rest of us, he doesn't advocate or defend terrorism.
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written by shamsul siahaan, July 09, 2008 18:33:09
written by Debbie, July 09, 2008 | 06:49:39

Of course Jesus is a Jew. So what!; Muslim says Jesus is a Muslim. I say Muhamad is a Christian. Would and should you feel so offended that you want to start a Jihad? I'm not joking about the cartoons. Attached a pix of yourself & I get you into a 3-some (trinity) with Jesus and Muhamad!

Was Jesus a Jew? The answer is not. Jesus was an Israelite or a member of the Israel tribe. Religiously speaking, the Israelites follow the teachings of the original Torah which was sent down to Moses by God in biblical Hebrew. History was repeated. The Israelites began corrupting the teachings of the Torah. After 1,700 years, God sent the Injil to Jesus to redeem the corruption. So, Jesus was never a Jew in the truest of sense. So what is a Jew? Technically, he/she is a follower of Judaism. Now, what is Judaism? Some claim that it is the religion expounded by Judah, who was one of the 12 sons of Prophet Jacob. Did Judah really start a religion called Judaism? All these are befuddling. That was why Jesus was sent by God to prevent further corruptions of the teachings of Torah. But humans being human. The non-conformists “crucified” Jesus, at least that is what Christianity taught.

Now comes the issue. The Muslims claim that Jesus was a Muslim. Firstly, what is a Muslim? Answer: One who submits to God (the True God), not those fake ones, like the one that flip-flops from father to son to ghost or those that can be presented to look like South Asian, Far Easterners or Caucasians, some bearded and scary looking. Adam submitted himself to God, so by definition he a Muslim, so was Noah, Job, Abraham, David, Solomon, Jacob and Moses and their “true” followers. Thus was Jesus.

What if you say Muhammad is a Christian? It can never be. In the first place what is a Christian? If you say, he/she is a follower of the religion founded by Jesus, then we can argue that Jesus never founded a religion. All that Jesus did was to bring the wayward Israelites back to the right path and God sent to him the Injil (or what Christians called the New Testament). Between the ascension of Jesus to Heaven and the beginning of Islam (Islam means To Submit To God), history was repeated. The teachings of Injil were again corrupted (what with someone who consistently vilified Jesus during his life time but later claimed that he had visions of Jesus asking him to expand his (Jesus’) teachings but with modifications such as the repeal of circumcision and prohibition of pork eating). God sent Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) to again lead humans to the right path.

So, can you see the difference between being a Muslim and a Christian? There’s no way that Prophet Muhammad can be called a Christian.
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written by shamsul siahaan, July 09, 2008 18:44:57
written by teohism, July 09, 2008 | 15:33:19

Did someone wrote that God doesn't play games? Really? All He needs to do is show Himself and EVERY will believe. Someone should have ask Datuk Azhar Mansur his personal experience. God must be sarcastic with a dark streak to let us fight about Him for so long.
======================================================= =======================
If Satan could hoodwink Adam and Eve to take the Forbidden Fruit, who is Datuk Azhar Mansur? He is only a small fry in the frying fan of Satan
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written by Panca Indera, July 09, 2008 22:13:58
Teochism,
Ref: Spot on about the Mischief!
Thank you for your admission. Now the whole world knows what type of animal you are. Even most animals behave according to instincts or physical needs, but you, according to your jealousy, and envy to create enmity.

ref: God made me what I am.
Teochism,
How wrong can you be. Blaming God for your arrogance and stubbornness. Just like the Devil himself blaming God for making him envious with arrogance.

[2.34] And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam they did obeisance, but Iblis (did it not). He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers

015.039
YUSUFALI: (Iblis) said: "O my Lord! because Thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong,-

No difference between Iblis and Teochism, both blaming God, even though God gave Teochism and Iblis Intelligence. They use it in the self-destructive ways

ref: All He needs to do is show Himself and EVERY will believe.
DUMB and DUMBER that’s my Teo!

ref: God must be sarcastic with a dark streak to let us fight about Him for so long.
What was that again Teochism.?
You are Christian/Buddhist or Something!
You are a lifeform with brain but no conscience , intellect nor intelligence.

And as for the remark, “He gave me a brain to use. Must account for something if you are still replying to me. Hahaha.”

I WAS hoping that I could lift your intellect and intelligence level somewhat! But……

I will not give up hope yet, as I think there is a little streak of humanity left, not much but still there. Only Teochism himself have to learn to rediscover and discard the dark side.
May the Force be with you and let you see the light.

I tried but alas, some souls are beyond redemption. I won’t ask for an apology from an animal.
Godbye , it was fun while it last,
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written by Panca Indera, July 09, 2008 23:11:29
Hi Debbie sweetie!
as promised
I'll pick on one statement at a time.
He wouldn't be able to be considered human if he's got super power!


Wow!
1. what about when he brought the dead to life.
2. Cure the lepers
3.Walk on water.
4. Turn water into wine etc refer etc.. http://www.bcbsr.com/survey/jmrcls.html

And you said He didn't have super power, Bullshit!
So was he human?
Not according to your logic which if he had super power he was not human.

When did the spirit left exactly, after the last miracle or before the first miracle?


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written by Panca Indera, July 10, 2008 09:10:36
Dear Akcc81
AS I said, you retained all the shit in your head . that’s why it comes from your mouth. Which is full of shit.

you don't know about other religion. OH boy, look who is shitting pus! Itss…AKCC81!! (full of mischievious shits like his brother Teochism.)

And don't think because you have the majority in this country, you can say whatever you like about other races and religions.
! Hey this is not China you know!Look at the repressed Muslims over there
Whats’ good for the Goose is Good for the gander, Don’t muck about with Islam , I won’t muck with yours, Dig!

Jesus Christ did come and was crucified on the cross for all men.

Ha, ha, ha, The most stupidous(if there is such a word) ever to come from a non asrehole.
It's recorded in the Bible( so is the story about one of the prophets sleeping and having sex with his own daughter)
And I said the Bible is corrupted with so much rubbish, not only its difficult to separate the truth from the false, its also confusing. Of course not so for simpleton like you, where everything the bible says is true, right?
His crucifixion was also recorded by early historians,
Listen you Moronic Dickhead and read what I’am writing carefully.

According to twisted logic, Jesus, A god and The son of God is let to die a slow death on the cross because He is paying for the sins of all men (not just Christians)

Suppose you have a son that you dearly love. You send him to Times square and Bukit Bintang area to preach. Then you found out that they are people who want to murder your son, what would you do?
1.Save your son and catch the would be murderers and turn them to frogs.
2.Let them carry out their evil scheme because you want your son to pay for the sins of those in times square and BB so they can continue doing what they are doing/.

If your answer is I then you are a logical and thinking person.
If your answer is the second, then you are a pervert, Sadist, Masochist and plain Ignoramus who cannot differentiate between right and wrong. Also your God the Father must be in the same category for allowing his ONLY BEGGOTEN SON to be tortured to death.
Yet this is the same GOD who would not allow prophet Abraham to slaughter his own beloved son Isaac (actually it was Ismail his first born)..
What a Freaky God you have who let his own son to be sacrificed but save his human son.

By the way using your logic all human before Jesus mission will not go to heaven, yeh! Because the were not baptized nor were they confirmed not did they recognized jesus as God.
cont....
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written by Panca Indera, July 10, 2008 09:15:01
cont...
We Muslims believe and recognized all humanity as Muslims from Adam onwards as long as they believe on the oneness of GOD and follow the teaching of the prophet sent down during their times or followed any of His books applicable during their times. (DO….YOU….FOLLOW…….) not too complicated is it?

Off the record, with you people, you think that only what's written by Muslims are credible despite being slanderous and history-twisting.

Another off the cuff sweeping statement without checking (brain disengaged while mouth in overdrive)
Please remember that Christianity came at least 600 yrs before Islam.
So Whats the point?
Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism, Hiduism, Judaism came before Christianity, So???
Justin Martyr wrote: …. Blah…blah…blah
I don’t have to belief every word a man writes. I digest those words and compare them to GOD"s words in his Books, If they compliment God’s words then I will accept if not , I say that’s BULLSHIT and discard it. NOT like you who drink da piss, chase the birds and stick your ears to the cows arse-end to listen to the bullshit, ha, ha, ha.
I have no dispute about Jesus existence or ministry, Just the BULL about him being GOD.

Another arse about face. The bible is a Christian holy Book, Right?
Why in Holy Jesus name and Mother Mary’s Virginity did you guys put the JEWISH OLD Testement in it as well(maybe no anymore).
Please explain, after all Christians and Jews are miles apart in beliefs.

Christians People will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.
Seconded!
What have you got for Islam?
All of them,,,,,!!!!!! And easier and clearer better to understand. Try to read it.

You people lack faith that's why you could not comprehend the 3-in-1 Godhead.

Ahahh… Faith and Dogma(whooff!… Whofff!) are two different meaning)

Let me clarify.
Faith is a conviction on a set of beliefs based on values that are acceptable after giving due thoughts and consideration.
Dogma is a conviction on a set of beliefs WITHOUT PROOF!
If anything my faith, is stronger today then yesterday and will be stronger tomorrow then today God Willing.

Well, H20 can come in 3 different forms.
So is the Clover leaf, so is most Insects (larvae, pupae, adult).. anything else…..

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written by Panca Indera, July 10, 2008 10:06:09
Dear AKCC81 , Teochism and Debbie
Read the following seven verves of the begining of the GOSPELS and the GENESIS
JOHN Chapter 1
1.In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2.The same was in the beginning with God.
3.All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4.In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5.And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6.There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7.The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
MARK Chapter 1
1.The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2.As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3.The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4.John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5.And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
6.And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;
7.And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
8.I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
MATTHEW Chapter 1
1.The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
2.Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
3.And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
4.And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
5.And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
cont...
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written by Panca Indera, July 10, 2008 10:08:30
cont...
6.And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
7.And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
GENESIS Chapter 1
1.In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2.And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3.And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4.And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5.And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6.And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7.And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Now read the QURAN Chapter 1 The Opening
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
[1.1] All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.
[1.2] The Beneficent, the Merciful.
[1.3] Master of the Day of Judgment.
[1.4] Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help.
[1.5] Keep us on the right path.
[1.6] The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.

THERE IS NO COMPARISON... WHICH IS SUPERIOR IN CONTENT, MESSAGE AND FACTUAL INFORMATION

I say man, Tahi Kucing atas cement!
bahu busuk macam you all man.
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written by Debbie, July 10, 2008 18:37:24
guys,
I apologise, Your religion is the best..but I have to go off for a few weeks to resettle some muslim refugees from Sudan and Lebonon who are running away from the country.

This is my work at the multicultural centre. The oldand displaced people from other countries who are seeking asylum here.


So books and words are just a thing...man made.


Actions speak louder than words.

Maybe Allah just wants to hear words.......like quoting him from your holy book
.
Shalom again.
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written by Panca Indera, July 10, 2008 20:30:16
Thank you apology accepted. I will cease and desist form further actions,
Good on you for doing the Samaritan's work, Try and help the Palestinians too, they are really in need of help. Many are Christians as well. Hundreds of Millions of Dollars if not billions, have been poured to help then regardless of religious background.So don't bring the issues of Muslims only refugees in Sudan, Look at Ethiopia, where the poor and displaced are Christians and black Jews.

So books and words are just a thing...man made.
Please don't start another argument.
To Muslims the Quran is WORDS of ALLAH and not human made.

Anyway Bon voyage and have a fruitful trip try to avoid taking sides OK!
The Sudanese Muslims may not be as tolerant as Malay Muslims. smilies/smiley.gif smilies/smiley.gif smilies/smiley.gif
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written by Panca Indera, July 10, 2008 21:01:30
Debbie I just finished praying for your safe journey, God Willing we all hope to hear from you about your experiences in Sudan when you come back!
Take care and safe jurney.
Salam or Shalom! smilies/smiley.gif smilies/shocked.gif smilies/smiley.gif smilies/cool.gif
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written by akcc81, July 11, 2008 11:21:51
Shamsul Siahaan blasphemed:
Read about Paul(Saul). He wasn’t even one of the 12 Disciples. He was a vision, probably hallucinating because of thirst on his way to Damsacus.

Not only was he suffering from hallucination due to the thirst in the desert, he was also one of those breakaway Jews who have been incessantly insulting and deriding Jesus (PBUH) during his lifetime on earth.


My reply:
Mohammed, the so-called, self-proclaimed prophet was hallucinating as well when he claimed to receive inspiration from God in a cave. He was busy twisting the words in the Bible to come out with the Quran and made the fools in Arabia believe that he was from God. What a stupid, poorly-concocted story that only the Jahiliyahs would believe! The Jews are way smarter that was why they resisted Islam knowing it came from a schizo. They are indeed recognized as the smartest race in the world. The Arabs? Shame on you.
FYI, Paul did persecute the church and Jesus before he was converted, but after that, he was all out to build the church. Get your facts right. You don’t deserve to debate with someone as knowledgeable as me. Such a waste of my precious time. I’d rather launch my attack on PI.
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written by akcc81, July 11, 2008 12:01:59
PI blasphemed:
It's recorded in the Bible( so is the story about one of the prophets sleeping and having sex with his own daughter)
And I said the Bible is corrupted with so much rubbish, not only its difficult to separate the truth from the false, its also confusing. Of course not so for simpleton like you, where everything the bible says is true, right?

My reply:
The reason why the Bible recorded the good and bad things done by the people who were chosen by God simply proved beyond the shadow of doubt that it is indeed the word of God. God is impartial and therefore He will not censor the truth despite the fact that it may seem to tarnish the image of His people. This makes the Bible all the more credible compared to the Quran whereby Mohammed spent days censoring what’s in the Torah and Bible before he could come out with what seems to be perfect but only fools would believe. You mean to say that there is no bad thing committed by man? You are such a fool. That is why you find it difficult to separate the truth from the false.

I did not believe the Bible because I was born into a Christian family or my ethnicity can only embrace Christianity. I was a Taoist and Buddhist before. Unlike you, I was given a choice to choose whichever religion I believe to preach the truth. I have therefore made comparative studies on various religions not being influenced by any one religion, like you. So I can proudly say there is no bias in my choice, unlike yours. I chose Christianity because I can prove that the Bible is the word of God not because it claims to be but because of multiple supporting external evidences. Can you claim the same for the Quran? I bet you can’t because there is none. That’s why you have to take up swords and keris to make you point.

So, PI, you don’t have the right to tell me you have done enough comparative studies of various religions without a bias because you have no choice but to remain in the religion you were born into. You have never embraced another religion before, so you being a Muslim is definitely out of tradition and not out of conviction. Stepping into a church or a temple will not enable you to experience what a Christian or a Buddhist or a Hindu experience. You are just fooling yourself by thinking you could. You judge in favour of Islam because of your biased mindset from the way you were indoctrinated. You can deny this fact, but God knows that you are lying. You haven’t step outside you comfort zone to see yourself from another point of view, so until you have done so, it’s best you keep you gab shut.

Oh yeah, why would I choose Islam which teaches retaliation, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, polygamy, wife giving into husbands uncontrolled libido? It’s just so sick. One can only see HATRED, SEX and MALE-CHAUVINISM. No wonder the Talibans...

Christianity is so much more beautiful and it’s only in Christianity that one can appreciate the LOVE of God. Jesus never taught retaliation. He taught us to love our enemies and to practise tolerance - if you are slapped on one cheek, turn another cheek. He taught us against divorce and polygamy. He taught equality among genders. BTW, the USA, IRAs and Crusaders are not Christians by Jesus’ standard despite their claims, in case you think of using them against me.
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written by akcc81, July 11, 2008 12:51:38
PI blasphemed:
Please remember that Christianity came at least 600 yrs before Islam.
So Whats the point?
Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism, Hiduism, Judaism came before Christianity, So???

My reply:
So fat so... Sigh... it goes without saying that truly you are stupid. The point is your Quran has references about the Bible and therefore it matters a lot that Christianity came before Islam. And yes, the Old Testament which the Judaists hold fast to is part of the Bible. All the other religion has got not significance to the point I was trying to get into your numbskull. Who’s a simpleton here? Truly, truly, this is all a reflection of your insecurities in Islam and sensitivities that you were indoctrinated with. As such you could not think with simple logic.

So if your Quran made references to the Scriptures and if there are facts that are contradictory to the Bible, it’s only logical to infer that the Bible is right and the Quran is wrong based on the 600 hundred years of difference. There is no way that the facts in the Quran can override that which is in the Bible simply because it came later. It can only complement the Bible if indeed the Quran came from God. To go against the Bible, claiming the Bible to be wrong only proves that the Quran is wrong. This is the logic that the world accepts in history. Perhaps only Islamic history is working in the reverse order. God will never change the order of history.

Don’t you dare refute the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ just because your Quran says it did not happen. The Quran can definitely not be right in this because Jesus lived and died when the Bible was written, not the Quran.

But what the Bible predicts in the future can override what eventually happens in the future because it is a prophecy and it can only come from God. For instance, the Bible warns of false prophets who will come in sheepskin and deceive the people. And the world has witness this truth which still happens from the 1st century till now.
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written by Panca Indera, July 11, 2008 13:19:40
Dear akcc81
I'll get back to you on your points latter.

Now read what the bible says(OT) about Moses and what the Quran says about Moses.
IF your are sensible, logical, unbiased and objective in your study and analysis. If you are not bigotted, mischievious and arrogantand ignorant your approach youwill notice and able to differentiate between accurate and sensible info and inaccurate and ranbling story telling. Enjoy while you can

THIS IS THE BIBLE VERSION
hemot – Exodus
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Exodus2.html
Chapter 2
1 And there went a man of the house of Levi, and took to wife a daughter of Levi.
2 And the woman conceived, and bore a son; and when she saw him that he was a goodly child, she hid him three months.
3 And when she could not longer hide him, she took for him an ark of bulrushes, and daubed it with slime and with pitch; and she put the child therein, and laid it in the flags by the river's brink.
4 And his sister stood afar off, to know what would be done to him. 5 And the daughter of Pharaoh came down to bathe in the river; and her maidens walked along by the river-side; and she saw the ark among the flags, and sent her handmaid to fetch it.
6 And she opened it, and saw it, even the child; and behold a boy that wept. And she had compassion on him, and said: 'This is one of the Hebrews' children.'
7 Then said his sister to Pharaoh's daughter: 'Shall I go and call thee a nurse of the Hebrew women, that she may nurse the child for thee?'
8 And Pharaoh's daughter said to her: 'Go.' And the maiden went and called the child's mother.
9 And Pharaoh's daughter said unto her: 'Take this child away, and nurse it for me, and I will give thee thy wages.' And the woman took the child, and nursed it.
10 And the child grew, and she brought him unto Pharaoh's daughter, and he became her son. And she called his name Moses, and said: 'Because I drew him out of the water.'
11 And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown up, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens; and he saw an Egyptian smiting a Hebrew, one of his brethren.
12 And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he smote the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand.
Note: Made to look as if Moses was murder the Egyptian on purpose.
cont.....
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written by Panca Indera, July 11, 2008 13:26:28
cont...
The Quran Version as on the same story reference http://www.tafheem.net/main.html
(28:4) The fact is that Pharaoh adopted an attitude of rebellion in the land *3 and divided its dwellers into groups *4 , one of which he debased, putting their sons to death, and letting their daughters live: *5 indeed he was one of the mischief-makers.
20:3smilies/cool.gif Recall the time when We inspired your mother with this idea by means of a Revelation:
(28:7) We *9 inspired the mother of Moses, saying, "Suckle him, and when you see any danger for him, cast him into the river, and fear not nor grieve, for We shall restore him to you and shall include him among the Messengers."
20:39) `Place this child in a box and put the box in the river; the river will cast it on to the bank and My enemy and his enemy will pick it up. I Myself made you an object of love and so arranged things that you should be brought up under My supervision.
28:smilies/cool.gif Consequently, Pharaoh's household picked him up (from the river) so that he may become their enema and cause of grief for them. *11 Really, Pharaoh and Haman and their hosts were misguided (in their scheming).
(28:9) Pharaoh's wife said (to him), "He is a comfort of the eyes for me and for you! Do not kill him: maybe that he proves useful to us, or we may adopt him as a son. " *12 And they were unaware (of the ultimate result).
(28:10) On the other hand, the heart of Moses' mother was sorely distressed. She would have disclosed his secret, had We not strengthened her heart so that she might have faith (in Our promise).
(28:11) She said to his sister, "Follow him up. " So, she watched him from a distance in a manner that (the enemies) did not notice it." *13
(28:12) And We had already forbidden the breasts of the nurses for the child. *14 (On seeing this) the girl said to them, "Shall I tell you of a house whose people will bring him up for you and look after him well?" *15
(20:40) Recall the time when your sister was walking along; then she said: `May I inform you of one, who will bring up this child in the best manner?' Thus We returned you to your mother so that her .eye might be cooled and she might not be grieved. And (also remember that) you killed a certain person and We freed you from its evil (consequences) and put you through various trials and you stayed with the people of Midian for several years. Now you have come back at the right time:
(28:13) Thus We restored Moses *16 to his mother so that her eyes might be cooled and she might not grieve and she might know that Allah's promise was true. *17 But most people do not know this.
(28:14) When Moses had reached his full maturity and become full- grown, *18 We gave him judgement and knowledge; *19 thus do We reward the righteous.
28:15) (One day) he entered the city at a time when the people were heedless. *20 There he saw two men fighting, the one of his own people, the other of his enemies. The one belonging to his own people asked his help against the one belonging to the enemy. Moses gave him a blow *21 and killed him. (On seeing what had happened) Moses said, "This is the work of Satan: he is a deadly enemy (of man) and an open misleader." *22
(28:16) Then he said, *23 "O my Lord, I have sinned against myself, so forgive me. " So, Allah forgave him: He is the All-Forgiving, the All-Merciful. *2

SO you stillthink your bible is superior to the QURAN are comparing the two readings about MOSES.

You have to be blinded in your heart and arrogance in your character not to admit the truth.
May you be roasted in HELL like the piglet you are, except you will be alive and feeling excruciating pain all the time for ever.
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written by Panca Indera, July 11, 2008 13:38:10
No way that the facts in the Quran can override that which is in the Bible simply because it came later. It can only complement the Bible if indeed the Quran came from God.

The bible says the world is F…L….A…..T….(whats what the Church taught until Galileo

The Quran taught that the world is ROUND.

YOU are truly…….. S….T…U…..P….I….D!!!!!!!!!

There is no two ways about it.
All those years of wasted Education.
Any Tom , Dick and Harry can see the difference. But you the Super dickhead
Beats them all as the MAsteR DICKHEAD. PHD.

Fun, Fun ,Fun

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written by Panca Indera, July 11, 2008 13:41:22
Oops almost forget who the MASTER DICKHEAD
Its................ Dr. Akcc81

PHD in SHItty Brains!
Kah, Kah, Kah
Go suck your Willy!!!! smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif
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written by Panca Indera, July 11, 2008 20:04:45
Akcc81
Reference: http://www.allabouttruth.org/o...le-faq.htm
This is what it has to say to Christians believers:

We have all sinned and deserve God's judgment.

Even a new born child has sinned that’s why the child has to baptized . IF a child dies before Baptism, the child will not get to Heaven.
God, the Father, sent His only Son to satisfy that judgment for those who believe in Him.

Every person born is sinful, that’s why Jesus was sent to earth to satisfy tha judgement. And he died at the cross pay for our sins.

Jesus, the creator and eternal Son of God, who lived a sinless life, loves us so much that He died for our sins, taking the punishment that we deserve, was buried, and rose from the dead according to the Bible.

Yes gentlemen, you must believe and agree to the statements even if it does not make sense.
1. Jesus the Creator? (was’nt God the Creator? Oops Jesus is God, But then who is the Father? … God)
2. Eternal Son of God (He was begotten by God the Father according to the Bible and planted in the Virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit who is also God).
Its like H20 lah… Ice, water and Vapor or like the Insects; larvae, pupae and Adult or anything that can take three different forms at three different time.

But…. That still does not explain how God the father send God the Spirit to put God the Son into Mary’s womb. What we have is three different personalities co-existing at the same time..
Simple God divide Himself into three equal or unequal parts.

If you truly believe and trust this in your heart, receiving Jesus alone as your Savior, declaring, "Jesus is Lord," you will be saved from judgment and spend eternity with God in heaven.
What about those before Jesus times?.... Where do they go? …. Heaven, hell or purgatory?

This what Islam says to Its believers.
2.136] Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Musa and Isa (JESUS), and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.
[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
[4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.
Takdak baca punya Olang!
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written by Panca Indera, July 12, 2008 01:38:30
Akcc81
Read and learn The Bible is (OT NT)
1.But OT (Old testament) for Jews
2.OT NT for Christians
3.Therefore Christians recognized Jews
4.Jews does not recognized Jesus nor Christians (Torah has no NT).
5.Jews circumcised their male born.
6.Christians do not circumcised and therefore unclean.
7.Jews only eat meat of animals that are slaughtered over G-D’s name (Kosher)
8.Christians eat meat of animals slaughtered any old ways (that’s why they get BSE??)
9.Jews forbidden to eat PIGS.(modern jews fm EU don’t care)
10.Christians eat PIGS
11.Christians recognized Jewish G-D which is Father of Jesus, but not Son of G_D.
12.Jews recognized Christians as Gentiles i.e sub-human(according to Jewish Laws(Talmud) only Jews are humans, everybody else are sub-human)
13.Christians recognizes Jews as G-D chosen people, Superior humans.
14.Jewish holiday is SATURDAY
15.Christians holiday is SUNDAY
16.The sign to a synagogue is the Magen SIX pointed star
17.The sign of the Church is the small T

SO you have two completely opposite Teachings, being shared in one book, the Bible.
No common ground at all! Only that Jesus was a Jewish tribesman.
So you can form your own logical and unbiased conclusion based on the true statements above. Please correct me If I’m wrong.

Quran

1.Anybody who submit himself/herself to obey Allah is Muslim, regardless of skin color, race or nationality or Sex. They are all brothers/sisters
2.A superior Human is the human who is greater in his performance of piety and obedience to ALLAH.
3.Muslims recognized Moses as a Prophet of Islam
4.Muslims recognized Jesus as the Prophet of Islam
5.Muslims recognized the followers of Moses and Jesus who followed the straight part and does not go astray or believing that Jesus is the Son of GOD as Muslims.
6.Allah Says on numerous occasions, that in FINALITY, He will decide who will go to Heaven and who will go to hell regardless of what they think of themselves and do.

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written by teohism, July 12, 2008 11:28:36
Hi P.I.

I've seen the light. Now, I'm a Christian Buddhist Muslim.

Why so much anger? You said that 'Sticks and stones...', yet you who studied the Quran and Bible better than most Christian (definitely better than his followers who were fishermen) are not living by example.

Your true color is showing... Pls tell the other reader that you do not represent the Muslims.

Summary: My words CAN and DID hurt you.
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written by mucking fuddled, July 12, 2008 11:59:02
Panca Indera,
Brillient, absolutely brillient,you seem to know so much abt your own GOD and the weaknesses of other religions.
Jesus said this....Allah said that....not productive, don't you agree?
Now go forth and tell your muslim breathens, the christians, the israelists, the imperialists, who are hell bent on destroying their own kind not to mention other innocent lives, and those who do not tolerate other religion, what you have been advocating......
You should be the ambassador of peace to all the trouble spots in the world.
Just tell Allah you will try ok?
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written by Panca Indera, July 12, 2008 12:29:40
Dear Teochism
The anger started when you guys Insulted my religion. I am a peace loving person, But I do believe in the right of self defence.

Don't use RPK's good will and criticisms of Un-Islamic behavior of Muslims to start a free for all condemnation of Islam. Thats all I am saying. Because I can used the same method too on these people's religion.

Tolerance means not only be be able to take criticism but knowing when to back-off and not to make fun on a person's beliefs.
As I have repeated before. I did'nt start this until aomeone said that Islam is Barbaric.
He can talk about it in this own company of like minded, but not on a public domain. there are those who does not share his opinions. Respect for religion works both ways.
As for "Your true color is showing... Pls tell the other reader that you do not represent the Muslims.

As far as religion is concerned " I AM COLOR BLIND" and yes I do not represent other Muslims.I represent myself only.
They are answerable to GOD themselves for their actions, as I am answerable for my actions.

ref: Summary: My words CAN and DID hurt you.
If that is how you see it, I let you be happy with your ignorance.

ref: I've seen the light. Now, I'm a Christian Buddhist Muslim.

There you go again with your three in One. Now I supposed, you feel triply secured. One has got to be right, right?
Nope, It does not work that way, You cannot play, play with religion,
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written by Panca Indera, July 12, 2008 13:17:22
Dear mucking fuddled,
You sure its not ****ing Muddled(sorry, No insult intended, Its just too good to miss)

refer:
Brillient, absolutely brillient,you seem to know so much abt your own GOD and the weaknesses of other religions.

Yes, I have studied them for the last 25 years of my life. How about you?

Jesus said this....Allah said that....not productive, don't you agree?
How is it not productive?

If I can convince one reader on this site by my arguments, I’ ve succeeded. Even I don’t I have refreshed my memory on all that I have read. And that's productive.!

Now go forth and tell your muslim breathens, the christians, the israelists, the imperialists, who are hell bent on destroying their own kind not to mention other innocent lives, and those who do not tolerate other religion, what you have been advocating......

I am doing that . you can help by linking this to your friends.
THE POWER OF THE INTERNET is absolutely brilliant.that you don't have to move from the seat.

Twenty years ago RPK would not be able to influence as many as he did now with the net, don’t you think?

You should be the ambassador of peace to all the trouble spots in the world.
Just tell Allah you will try ok?


Muslims don’t TELL Allah!

As a less than miniscule creature before His Awesome,Majestic Power and Beneficence, We go down on my hands and knees to beg and plead with HIM to guide us and protect us form evil at all time(even within a blink of the eye).
We are ashamed even to ask Him while standing up.
Glory to the Lord, The Magnificence and ALL Hearing
Glory to the Lord The Most Highest and All hearing

I do with what I have and what I can at the moment. God Willing I shall strive harder and better to spread His message for my own benefit not HIS.
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written by teohism, July 12, 2008 14:33:07
Thought for the Day. (P.I. - no need to study for 25 yrs-lah)

No humans, No Allah/God!

Want to start a new debate titled: Man, God. Who needs who?

Rgds, Your new convert,
teohism
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written by mucking fuddled, July 12, 2008 15:10:08
Panca Indera

the spelling was deliberate, glad you find it amusing, its meant to be...very clever of you, not alot of people can figure out why its spelled that way....
you don't have to tell me how powerful Allah is, we ALL know that, but if you keep harping on it, it gets stale, know what i mean?
i am delirious for you 25 years of your life was not wasted....
keep up the good work, but sometimes sitting behind your pc may not be as effective as being openly vocal....
Extreamist are getting all the bad press from western media, while good muslims like you are not vocal enough to stand up, condemn their despicable actions and counter islamphobia....
very proud for you to have such awesome memory but don't try to brag, it defeats the humble person you are trying to present.....
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written by Panca Indera, July 12, 2008 15:12:10
No humans, No Allah/God!
Wrong!
No humans, Allah still there. Remember EVERLASTING, INFINITE, FOREVER.
Just because your brain cannot perceived He is not there.

Want to start a new debate titled: Man, God. Who needs who?

OK, I will start.

Man needs God to improve himself from just another animal subscribing to his lusts to being capable of the highest enlightenment and be next to GOD.
How's that. whats you say.
smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif
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written by Debbie, July 12, 2008 15:35:57

dear panca indera,
thank you for your prayers( i sure do need them)...but i think you misunderstood that I will be going to Sudan. I am down under trying to resettle muslim families who have come here to seek a better life.

The work that we do here, is really exhausting,, I have to leave my family behind and go and find accommodation, education and the means for these families to go on with life. Sometimes the children stay away from the parents before they can be settled in a new home. If they have elderly people with them...We have to provide food to cater for their health. Medicare and so forth.

I must say the govt here, do really live up to their mark.

Since there will be an influx of newly arrivals soon...I shall take leave from this electronic device. Yep man made too.

Shalom
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written by mucking fuddled, July 12, 2008 16:02:38
hi debbie,

keep up the good work, i speak on behalf of all volenteers, we are proud and appreciate your commitments and sacrifices...
btw, you are not missing much here, except silly,and 'i must win' arguments...
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written by teohism, July 12, 2008 16:27:31
I will start AND close with one sentence!

If there's nobody (no humans) to 'give praise' to Allah, Allah will create/make some more man (humans).

Really, P.I. this is too 'shallow' for you?
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written by teohism, July 12, 2008 16:37:45
I *****ed on a link above and got this interesthing e-book. Short excerpt about...

Islam & the Sonship of Christ

Attributing fatherhood to God is condemned vehemently by Allah in the Koran. In fact, it is regarded as blasphemy. This is one of the reasons that Muslims believe the Bible texts have been corrupted. They are of the opinion that Jesus never addressed Himself with any title of Sonship.

This title is so repulsive to Allah that he even resorted to outright cursing
in one of the suras in the Koran:
" . . .The Christians call Christ the Son of God. That is a saying
from their mouth. [In this] they but imitate what the unbelievers
of old used to say. GodÂ’s curse be upon them . ." (Surat attaubah,
30).

If Allah is really the Rahman Rahim (i.e. the Beneficent, the Merciful) why doesn't He wish that the 'blasphemous' Christians repent? Why resort to outright cursing? Yet in the Bible, God has to bear with even Satan until the appointed time.

Why can't Allah bear with Christians? At this point, one is forced to ask: who is this Allah that has to resort to cursing those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God? Could he be the same God that spoke in the Bible? If the Bible and the Koran had the same author, would they not definitely speak the same thing?

more...

http://www.fishhouseministries.com/pdf/IslamReviewed.pdf
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written by teohism, July 12, 2008 17:16:36
If Allah can curse... then I, can question him.

In case you don't want to see my common-sense logic about - 'Man, God. Who needs who?'; let me attempt again to enlighten you by creating a simple scenario using - God and I.

God said: I made 'you' so that you WILL sing me praises! So, start singing!
Me said: Huh? YOU also make the 'woman'? Me need woman, no need 'YOU'!
God said: You MUST because I made you! I'll create hell if you don't!
Me said: If you made me, did you ask my permission? Piss-off or go make something else!
God said: Holy Shit! I NEED to make someone more agreeable!
Me said: Go ahead. Me make my own with your woman.

Summary: If there's no humans or creation to acknowlege God, then God needs man to be able to be God. Chicken and egg story-lah. Also, kind-of 'It takes two hands to clap'.
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written by akcc81, July 12, 2008 23:20:38
PI blasphemed yet another time:
The bible says the world is F…L….A…..T….(whats what the Church taught until Galileo

The Quran taught that the world is ROUND.

YOU are truly…….. S….T…U…..P….I….D!!!!!!!!!


My reply:
You are truly beyond redemption. Insya Allah, someone will help save your soul from Hell.

First of all, nowhere in the Bible says that the world is round. You allege thus you must prove, but you couldn't prove because you are lying.

The Bible in Isaiah 40:22 says "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in."

"the circle of the earth" already suggests that the earth is round. How does the writer know even before Galileo created the telescope? It can only come from God.

Job 26:7 says "He stretches out the north over empty space, He hangs the earth on nothing". This again is proven by the telescope hundreds of years later that the northern skies has no stars and that the earth is not hung on anything or on Atlas' shoulder as the Greeks believe.

This 2 verses is sufficient to prove that the knowledge back then can only be from God before the advent of modern science. Thus, the Bible is from God.

Where in Hell did the Quran say the earth is round? Don't lie! Show your prove. Whatever it is, the Quran came after the Bible and even if it has any similar references to that which I have just pointed out, it's because it's copied from the Bible. Now do you see why I said that the Bible came 600 years before the Quran, short-sighted? I told you from the start, PI, I'm hundreds of steps ahead of you. Who is the stupid one? smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif
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written by akcc81, July 12, 2008 23:21:51
The person who said the earth was flat was none other that ARISTOTLE!!!
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written by akcc81, July 12, 2008 23:28:03
PI blasphemed:
We have all sinned and deserve God's judgment.

Even a new born child has sinned that’s why the child has to baptized . IF a child dies before Baptism, the child will not get to Heaven.


My reply:
The reference you made unfortunately is a wrong teaching of the Catholics. That is why they baptize babies.

Nowhere in the Bible can you find a practice that endorse this doctrine.

Children are without sin until they reach the age of accountability whereby they can discern between good and evil. Prior to that, if they die, they will end up in heaven. This is the Bible's teaching. Go read for yourself.

You know what you are doing? You are picking on things you can use to launch your attack regardless of the truth. You have no respect for the truth whatsoever. You just want to win an argument. You are disappointing to yourself and your faith. May Allah help you.
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written by akcc81, July 12, 2008 23:37:17
PI sulked:
The anger started when you guys Insulted my religion. I am a peace loving person, But I do believe in the right of self defence.

Don't use RPK's good will and criticisms of Un-Islamic behavior of Muslims to start a free for all condemnation of Islam. Thats all I am saying. Because I can used the same method too on these people's religion.


My reply:
Wait a minute, PI. Please read back the logs of the comments in chronological order. I think it's you people (Muslims) who attempted to belittle other religions in the name of upholding your Islamic faith. Get the facts right. You people started the insult. We should be the angry one but NO, we have to abide by the teachings of Christ to love our enemies and not to retaliate. Yes we do love you and hope that you come to see the truth one day. Insya Allah! You are such a spoil-sport and sensitive person. In fact, you all are...

BTW, you have already use all methods available to you to condemn other religions. It's in your mindset that have been indoctrinated into you in this country. You people have no regard for other religions much less tolerance because you think you have the numbers. You don't even have tolerance for Muslims who want to denounce Islam, what more for people of other faiths. It's all about FORCE, FORCE and FORCE. There is no free-will. This is all I'm saying. You go and do some honest self-reflection.
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written by shamsul siahaan, July 13, 2008 16:43:43
written by akcc81, July 11, 2008 | 11:21:51

Mohammed, the so-called, self-proclaimed prophet was hallucinating as well when he claimed to receive inspiration from God in a cave. He was busy twisting the words in the Bible to come out with the Quran and made the fools in Arabia believe that he was from God. What a stupid, poorly-concocted story that only the Jahiliyahs would believe! The Jews are way smarter that was why they resisted Islam knowing it came from a schizo. The Jews are way smarter that was why they resisted Islam knowing it came from a schizo. They are indeed recognized as the smartest race in the world. The Arabs? Shame on you.
======================================================= =========================
Smart as you think you’re, you actually missed the point we’re arguing. Lest you misunderstood me, let me stress again. PI and I are talking about a misguided guy by the name of Saul (Paul, as some of you would like to call him), who concocted stories that he had visions of Jesus while traveling to Damascus, claimed that Jesus instructed him to make all kinds of abrogation in the Injil (which the Christians claimed to be New Testament), such as allowing Christians to eat pork and doing away with circumcision. His whole objective was to satisfy his true master, the Romans and to gain the support of the Gentiles (the Israelites who strictly followed the Torah and later the Injil refused to believe him).

You were unable to swallow this fact because the statement came from Muslims. How about statements from Christians like the following:


Jeremy Bentham (English Philosopher)

"If Christianity needed an Anti-Christ, they needed look no farther than Paul."


Hyam Maccoby (Talmudic Scholar)

"As we have seen, the purposes of the book of Acts is to minimize the conflict between Paul and
the leaders of the Jerusalem Church, James and Peter. Peter and Paul, in later Christian
tradition, became twin saints, brothers in faith, and the idea that they were historically bitter
opponents standing for irreconcilable religious standpoints would have been repudiated with
horror. The work of the author of Acts was well done; he rescued Christianity from the
imputation of being the individual creation of Paul, and instead gave it a respectable pedigree,
as a doctrine with the authority of the so-called Jerusalem Church, conceived as continuous in
spirit with the Pauline Gentile Church of Rome. Yet, for all his efforts, the truth of the matter is
not hard to recover, if we examine the New Testament evidence with an eye to tell-tale
inconsistencies and confusions, rather than with the determination to gloss over and harmonize all difficulties in the interests of an orthodox interpretation."

Thomas Jefferson

"Paul was the first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus."

Carl Sagan (Scientist; Author)

"My long-time view about Christianity is that it represents an amalgam of two seemingly
immiscible parts--the religion of Jesus and the religion of Paul.

Brendan E

“I was really blown away by the Petrine material (such as the Clementine Homilies) and its Ebionite associations, that there was a sort of "quiet overthrow" of the Ebionites by the Pauline mystics in the early days of the Church. And one simply can not come away without seeing the sharp and evident contrasts between the original teachings of Jesus (as revealed by contemporary biblical scholarship) and Paul's rendering of those teachings. One is left with the distinct -- and deeply unsettling -- impression that Paul and his cohorts deliberately sacrificed Jesus the man to the idea of Christ, a scandal exposed for which there is no historical comparison. In "the New Ebionite Gospel," I saw, not God or the Son of God, but rather a simple man who lived an exemplary life -- a life so rich in virtue, compassion, and the realization of human potentialities that a kind of freedom was attained that not even the cross could destroy. Perhaps "the abundant life" and "the Kingdom of God" of which Jesus purportedly spoke was precisely this moral excellence, equanimity, and unwavering life-focus achievable in mortal flesh. As such, his words and actions continue to have relevance and power for those of us who struggle to realize meaning, value, and integrity in an indifferent universe. When read as a guide for living well rather than a divine revelation or theological treatise, the Good News of Jesus can still evoke from us a resounding and joyful "Amen."

On another note, we Muslims do not insult Prophets of Allah. That included Jesus and Moses. We know the circumstances under which God communicated His Messages to them. In your case, you take pleasure in deriding Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), which in effect is identical with Saul’s behaviour.

I'll give my comment later on your other statements.
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written by Panca Indera, July 13, 2008 23:39:21
Dear Shamsul Siahaan
Alhamdulilah,
I know you are well able by yourself,but thank you My brother,
Appreciate your knowledge and points in the debate.

In the end it is .
109.001 : Say: O disbelievers!
109.002 : I worship not that which ye worship; c
109.003 : Nor worship ye that which I worship.
109.004 : And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
109.005 : Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
109.006 : Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.

They are going to close this thread soon as It is on its last leg. so Akc81, what does AKCC81 means, not like Mucking Fuddle is it? smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif
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written by Panca Indera, July 14, 2008 00:19:55
AKCC81
Papal Condemnation (Sentence) of Galileo
(June 22, 1633)
Whereas you, Galileo, son of the late Vaincenzo Galilei, Florentine, aged seventy years, were in the year 1615 denounced to this Holy Office for holding as true the false doctrine taught by some that the Sun is the center of the world and immovable and that the Earth moves, and also with a diurnal motion; for having disciples to whom you taught the same doctrine; for holding correspondence with certain mathematicians of Germany concerning the same; for having printed certain letters, entitled "On the Sunspots, wherein you developed the same doctrine as true; and for replying to the objections from the Holy Scriptures, which from time to time were urged against it, by glossing the said Scriptures according to your own meaning: and whereas there was thereupon produced the copy of a document in the form of a letter, purporting to be written by you to one formerly your disciple, and in this divers propositions are set forth, following the position of Copernicus, which are contrary to the true sense and authority of Holy Scripture:
F. Cardinal of Ascoli
B. Cardinal Gessi
G. Cardinal Bentivoglio
F. Cardinal Verospi
Fr. D. Cardinal of Cremona
M. Cardinal Ginetti
Fr. Ant. s Cardinal of. S. Onofrio

[Three judges did not sign the sentence: Francesco Barberini, Caspar Borgia, and Laudivio Zacchia.]
Source: Giorgio de Santillana, The Crime of Galileo (University of Chicago Press 1955), pp. 306-310.

OK oK I'm lying if these people were lying.

Mr Muddled, I'm not trying to win any argument, not tryng to create animosity
either. As I say respect is a two way traffic.
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written by Panca Indera, July 14, 2008 00:23:34
Dear ahcc81
you did not give proof.
this is my proof who started it
written by taishan, June 25, 2008 | 15:20:11
Want two hands to clap.....read the following verses :-

Quran: 4:89
"They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

8:39 Fight them until there is no dissension and the religion is entirely Allah's.
note: Is'nt this stirring up trouble especially the translation is wrong. and look at the number of those who reported as abused.
why don't you condemn ?

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written by akcc81, July 14, 2008 14:17:42
To Shamsul Siahaan,

Yes I am unable to swallow the "facts" you gave especially when it came from Muslims. First of all, what you have written contained no facts whatsoever. It is facts to you because it condemns other religion, but what you provided were merely rubbish.

The people you named were not even Christians to begin with. Caucasians maybe, Europeans maybe, Americans maybe, white maybe, but NOT Christian. You are working on assumption. You think just because all Malays MUST be Muslims, therefore all whites are Christians. You are severely mistaken.

So, who cares what these people have to say about Paul? The Bible speaks for itself. It admitted that Paul was once persecuting the church and the Christians. But later on, having seen Jesus on the way to Damascus, he repented and thereafter propagated Christianity throughout the region. The Bible did not deny the fact that Paul was once against the Christians. What's not written in the Bible is man's own interpretation of the situation and therefore subject to mistakes. Again, who care what these people opined?

I do not take pleasure deriding Prophet Mohammed as you claimed, if indeed he is a prophet. You people condemned other people's religions like nobody's business and expect others to tolerate with you. Who the hell do you think you are?
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written by akcc81, July 14, 2008 14:24:59
To PI,

Time and time again I have explained the difference between the Catholics (Pope and Vatican) and Christians. I'm not going to repeat myself. I shall ignore the reference you gave because it has got nothing to do with Christianity. You have to seek answers from the Catholics.

The 2 verses I pointed out to you before speaks for itself. If you are sincere to yourself, go look it up in the Bible. I know you are not sincere because you are not interested in the truth, you only want to find people's comments about Christianity to use as your ammunition against me.

You are definitely lying to not only those who are reading these comments but also to yourself. Be truthful for once if you truly value the truth.

And thank you for reiterating the very essence of Islam jihad here. Quran: 4:89
and 8:39 speak for themselves. It's crystal clear that you people started condemning and deriding other people's religions. Not only that, you even want to impose force if they cannot accept your teachings. Read the verses you provided for yourself over and over again. No other religion teaches hatred this much.
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written by shamsul siahaan, July 15, 2008 13:34:28
written by akcc81, July 14, 2008 | 14:17:42


So, who cares what these people have to say about Paul? The Bible speaks for itself. It admitted that Paul was once persecuting the church and the Christians. But later on, having seen Jesus on the way to Damascus, he repented and thereafter propagated Christianity throughout the region. The Bible did not deny the fact that Paul was once against the Christians. What's not written in the Bible is man's own interpretation of the situation and therefore subject to mistakes. Again, who care what these people opined?

The Bible was revealed to Jesus. How come Paul’s name appeared in it? Unless,it is a different kind of Bible, written and adulterated by human beings, the likes of ........
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written by shamsul siahaan, July 15, 2008 19:25:27
written by akcc81 July 14, 2008 | 14:17:42

I do not take pleasure deriding Prophet Mohammed as you claimed, if indeed he is a prophet. You people condemned other people's religions like nobody's business and expect others to tolerate with you. Who the hell do you think you are?

You missed the point again. We’ve never insulted or condemned any religion. In fact, it is against the teachings of Islam to do so. What we pointed out was simply the serious adulteration done to what were being revealed to Moses and Jesus by wayward human beings. Otherwise, how can there be varying versions of the Bible (Old and New Testaments). What was revealed to Moses and Jesus were the Words of God. How could mortals dare alter the contents of the Holy Books? Now, do you get the point?
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written by akcc81, July 16, 2008 12:43:14
Shamsul Siahaan wrote:
The Bible was revealed to Jesus. How come Paul’s name appeared in it? Unless,it is a different kind of Bible, written and adulterated by human beings, the likes of ........


My reply:
Did PI send you to the battle because he has no more ammunitions? I thought as much...

Before you make any comments, please get your facts right. None of the 66 books in the Bible were written by Jesus Christ. There were written by prophets and apostles who were witnesses of the whole counsel of God. How did they manage to write a book which has no contradiction whatsoever over a span of at least 4000 years? It is only through the inspiration of God that all these are made possible.

Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ who was appointed to minister to the Gentiles (if you even know this word). He never adulterated any part of the Bible, like what you Muslims choose to believe. Because the very teachings of Christ revealed to Paul in the New Testament will put your belief to vanity and you cannot accept that. Therefore you choose to disparage Paul. In actuality, it's the Quran that's trying to adulterate the pure message of God.
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written by akcc81, July 16, 2008 12:56:03
PI and Shamsul Siahaan:

I think you should take a look at this website: http://www.apostatesofislam.com/
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written by shamsul siahaan, July 16, 2008 13:30:33
written by akcc81 July 16, 2008
| 12:43:14

Before you make any comments, please get your facts right. None of the 66 books in the Bible were written by Jesus Christ. There were written by prophets and apostles who were witnesses of the whole counsel of God. How did they manage to write a book which has no contradiction whatsoever over a span of at least 4000 years? It is only through the inspiration of God that all these are made possible.

======================================================= ==========================

Hold it. I said what was revealed to Jesus, were God’s Words. Nothing more, nothing less. We know, at least we Muslims know, that was what exactly happened. Of course, it was only logical that what was revealed to Jesus must be taken down by trusted scribes, so that it would not be adulterated by humans who have personal interests. Who ever said the Injil (or the Gospel or what some of you describe as the New Testament) was written by Jesus? Next, please tell us, how do you ascertain that the Gospel is in its original form until today? Show us proof that the Gospel has not been tampered with by unscrupulous people who declared themselves prophets and apostles. Don’t tell us that crap, no contradiction whatsoever over a span of at least 4000 years in the Bible. It is only what most of you imagined, unfortunately.
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written by shamsul siahaan, July 16, 2008 16:16:22
written by akcc81 July 16, 2008
| 12:43:14


Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ who was appointed to minister to the Gentiles (if you even know this word). He never adulterated any part of the Bible, like what you Muslims choose to believe. Because the very teachings of Christ revealed to Paul in the New Testament will put your belief to vanity and you cannot accept that. Therefore you choose to disparage Paul. In actuality, it's the Quran that's trying to adulterate the pure message of God.


Tried as hard as he possibly could, Saul never was able to become a leader vis-à-vis religious one (let alone an apostle) among the Israelites, despite the fact a substantial number of them had strayed from the original guidance (or commandments) of the Torah. His only recourse was to try to popularize himself among the Gentiles, although he was born a Jew. Didn’t Saul adulterate the Bible? I suppose not. Reason: The Bible was written by humans, supposedly the learned disciples of Jesus. It is never the Book of Revelation to Moses and Jesus, although it is claimed that it contains the Torah and the Injil (or Gospel). And that was why, Saul’s or Paul’s name appeared in the Bible. How he elevated himself to the level of Jesus’ apostle is already common knowledge. I won’t waste my time going into it.
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written by shamsul siahaan, July 16, 2008 18:04:33
written by akcc81, July 16, 2008 | 12:56:03

PI and Shamsul Siahaan:

I think you should take a look at this website: http://www.apostatesofislam.com/

======================================================= =========================

I've not gone to the website yet but I assume it must be about the admissions of Muslim apostates. What is the big deal? God has given us human beings the capacity to think, evaluate and make our choices. After all, even the Devil was granted longevity of life till the end of the world. That, despite the fact that he refused to bow down to Adam on the instructions of God, upon Adam’s creation. Of course, the first victim of the Devil was Adam himself, the first Prophet of Allah. A lesson has to be learnt from the episode and not just teach human beings to accept a dogma whereby every human carries the so-called sins of Adam which can only be pardoned by accepting Jesus as the Christ and part of the Trinity.
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