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Headscarf Controversy PDF Print
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Monday, 19 May 2008 14:34

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Time for Clear-headed Thinking

Three years ago I gave up wearing a headscarf and joined the ranks of the "inconspicuous". It's a decision that has changed my whole perception of women wearing the veil and of those who do not very profoundly.

Emel Abidin-Algan

Emel Abidin-Algan got to know arranged marriage and the headscarf from personal experience. Here, the daughter of the founder of the Turkish Milli Görüs movement argues for an end to the Turkish government's headscarf ban

Turkish schoolgirls with headscarf (photo: AP)| Bild: Divisive issue: when controversy comes to a head |

The headscarf ban imposed at Turkish universities must be lifted immediately. Bans such as this represent an imposition on personal privacy. This makes them extreme, and one form of extremism can only succeed in begetting another. The headscarf today is increasingly falling victim to misappropriation.

For many of the wearers it represents a badge of group identity, a religious symbol that has become an expression of their political resistance to the dictates of the state. The currently fashionable trend towards exploiting its potential for flirtatiousness is something that appals me. I find it difficult to believe that the devout female adherents of the prophet would have spent their time back then in front of the mirror dolling themselves up before leaving their houses.

An atmosphere of mutual respect

I hope that once this restrictive and one-sided ban has been lifted tensions between the sides will ease, and seriousness and objectivity will be allowed their rightful places in the discussion, in an atmosphere of mutual respect. It is the refusal to engage in dialogue more than the wearing of what has become a highly symbolic article of clothing that is the real and very significant danger here, in my opinion.

I myself wore a headscarf for more than 30 years, so I know what it feels like for a woman; how she thinks. If the headscarf is connected to a sense of identity, with moral values and an instilled unnatural sense of shame, these women can hardly be expected to discard it, or to unveil themselves, just like that. A woman's right to education must not be infringed upon because of this: that is a right that must remain inviolable.

Three years ago I gave up wearing a headscarf and joined the ranks of the "inconspicuous". It's a decision that has changed my whole perception of women wearing the veil and of those who do not very profoundly. I now see things that I didn't notice when I myself wore a headscarf.

Taking a closer look at the religious sources

The setting aside of my own headscarf was not a decision that I took lightly. It grew out of a combination of my own experiences, gathered gradually while going without a headscarf in public, by my involvement in the headscarf debate, and through the opportunities presented to me in my position as chairperson of the Islamic Women's Association, to take a closer look at the oft-cited religious sources.

It was only when, following my research, and in the wake of my new experiences, I made my decision to stop wearing the headscarf that the reactions of my fellow Muslims made me aware that I had unconsciously blundered into a minefield.

(photo: Stephan Schmidt)| Bild: Only when each woman is free to decide for herself, says Emel Abidin-Algan, will the headscarf be deprived of its divisive symbolic power |

Independent research, the critical questioning of tradition or of the contemporary situation are things that Muslims are unused to, things that are not encouraged in the context of traditional hierarchical thinking. The result is a lack of viable arguments in favour of the headscarf today. The argument that a woman wearing a headscarf is less likely to be molested is ridiculous. Here in Germany at least, no man would molest a woman simply because she wasn't wearing a headscarf.

What about covering up for men?

In earlier times, covering up was seen as a way of neutralising female allurements. It created a kind of distance that enabled the continuation of communication between men and women. The covering up of the body at that time was nowhere near as restrictive for women in terms of their social mobility as it unfortunately has become in the contemporary world – where career prospects are concerned, for example.

I also believe that the argument about covering up the attractions of the female body is nonsense nowadays. Within Europe, at least, one must ask whether there is any necessity to neutralise the attractions of the female body? What are attractions anyway? Let's look at it from the other side. Are men not attractive to women also? And, if so, why shouldn't they be the ones to cover up? Do women not have erotic fantasies?

Perhaps a survey could be held to help to clear up this imaginative discrepancy.

Ill-informed on sources

I have been astonished by just how little Muslims know about the theological sources of the debate. Surely now, with the headscarf playing such a disproportionately contentious role in a struggle conducted in the name of Islam, people should be aware of the fact that what is now an iconic political symbol and rallying point was originally no more than a peripheral item in a popular folk religion. Why is such misappropriation tolerated?

It is mainly down to belief as a sense of duty, not as a conviction based on first-hand knowledge and experience. The idea of obeying God's will and observing a religious duty is still very often enough for many women who are content not to question any further.

None of the Muslims I have talked to so far, for example, have known anything of the basis in revelation (asbab an nuzul), the historical context behind the two verses of the Koran that relate to covering of the body. The fact that the regulations on which parts of their bodies it is that men and women have to cover can be traced back to a decision made by scholars after the death of the prophet doesn’t appear to interest anyone either.

It is this basis in revelation, but also my own experience, which has shown me that the recommendations on covering up found in the Koran have a practical intention, that has been completely superseded nowadays due to changes in the self-perceptions of men and women.

In those early times there was a straightforward, practical need for the covering of the body. Women found themselves being molested by men who mistook them for slaves, while the male predilection for female cleavage meant that such men were likely to find themselves on the receiving end. Since the people at that time were unable to help themselves, it was left to God to intervene on their behalf with two revelations.

Self-sufficient arrogance

I am very much opposed to this phenomenon today whereby a group can make use of externals such as the headscarf or the covering of the body to dictate what religion and religiousness are, or, worse still, what decency is. This is discriminating against all those who choose not to make use of such externals as the headscarf but who, like me, consider themselves very religious nevertheless. Most non-Muslims in Germany, however, associate the headscarf with Islam, without feeling any need to question any further.

It is the starkness, the unnatural look of some women with headscarves that has struck me most strongly since my change of perspective: they look to me almost as if they had just been discharged from hospital, their head wounds swathed in bandages. I also very often come across a self-sufficient arrogance. Like "wrapped-up sweets" was the perception of young Muslim women given to me by one non-Muslim man whose opinion I once asked.

That's why I tend to find it very humiliating that the outsider, the non-Muslim, associates the headscarf with Islam and believes that women who wear headscarves are more religious than those who do not.

What does the headscarf have to do with religion?

I now believe it to be very dangerous to have such a close association between an article of clothing and a religion. It means that if I decide that the piece of clothing is no longer necessary it is almost as if I were deciding to reject the religion itself. Today, without my headscarf, I feel much more religious than I ever did before. I have become closer to people and find myself wondering all the more what the headscarf has to do with religion.

But prohibition is not the proper way to achieve dialogue. What we need is to develop comprehensible reasoning that will finally allow us to engage in differentiated discussions and give women the courage to make genuine changes to their lives, enable them to decide things for themselves.

Therefore there are political reasons for rejecting bans: the liberation of Muslim women, the freeing of men from their image as harassers of women, and the need to effect lasting change to some of the lingering archaic attitudes to men and women in Muslim societies.

Muslims and non-Muslims in Germany could work together to set the ball rolling, give impetus to the initiating of a proper dialogue that would help women both in Germany and Turkey. The very traditional social structures that persist in Turkey make the question of social relations there considerably more difficult. It just means that we in Germany need to be even more aware both of our opportunities and of our shared responsibility.

This article first appeared in Die Welt newspaper.


The writer works as a communications manager in Berlin. Daughter of the founder of the controversial Islamic organisation Milli Görüs, she went through an arranged marriage and is mother to six children. She was for many years chairperson of the Islamic Women’s Association. She decided to stop wearing a headscarf three years ago. In 2007 she was the first German Muslim to be awarded the Protestant prize “Das unerschrockene Wort” (the fearless word – presented to those unafraid to speak their minds).

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written by freedom lover, May 19, 2008 14:49:20
One thing is sure, Muslim women will win the Miss Universe and Miss World pageants throughout, if all of them are allowed to participate without fear of any religious wrong doings!
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written by PASOK, May 19, 2008 14:51:18

What a person wears is an individual choice. Best always to let people wear what they want to wear within limits of safety and security.

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written by donplay, May 19, 2008 14:56:27
As a non-Muslim, I have never felt threatened by Muslim ladies wearing the scarf. That is their fundamental inalienable human right.

What I don't understand is that why is this scarf issue deemed so important that it commands higher priority than other problems that nations like Turkey dace - education, health, welfare, foo, oil, inflation etc etc etc. Surely, an incoming new Govt (albeit an Islamic one) has more pressing issues to attend to?
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written by chanatak, May 19, 2008 15:01:11
GET THE POINT RIGHT

There is nothing wrong with a headscarf. My sisters used to put on headscarves when they were young. And they are not Malays.

But the issue is that the headscarf is being touted around as a religious thing. It becomes offensive not because it is a religious thing. But it is touted as a religious right that over-rules the requirements of others. To object to it being in certain places becomes an issue of religious persecution. That right overrules company regulations even on religious grounds. It is the WAY that it is touted that makes it offensive.

On the other hand, we have UMNO fools who say that the symbol of the cross on missionary school walls is offensive to muslims. Get the point right

Pasok's closing statement is right.
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written by ttsan, May 19, 2008 15:03:15
Again deleted comments.why?? Sedition act in force,super admin...
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written by ttsan, May 19, 2008 15:07:41
If we can't comment then why the need to have MT
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written by chanatak, May 19, 2008 15:29:18
What was wrong with my comment?

I say it again. There is nothing wrong with the headscarf. There is everything wrong with the way it is being touted as a religious right, which overrides the rights of others to set rules for their workplace.

My sisters used to wear headscarves, and they are not Malays. So the issue is not the headscarf, it is the way it is being touted as an inalienable right.
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written by ttsan, May 19, 2008 15:38:13
chanatak,That's the same question I have been asking.Mine was also deleted. If mt think topics like this is too sensitive to be comment then they should not have put it up.It' a waste of time.
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written by chanatak, May 19, 2008 15:49:34
Thankyou ttsan. Well .... what more can i say?
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written by Milo, May 19, 2008 15:50:33
Hi guys, have a little faith in RPK when he finds the need to censor some comments. There could be political or legal implications far more important than our freedom of speech when words are in print.
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written by alarcarte, May 19, 2008 15:52:28
Tudung or no tudung? Its up to them-lah. Whether our Muslims here wear it or not is of no significance to the rest of us. One wonders why some of them are wearing the tudung but at the same time wearing tight jeans and body hugging tee shirts. It defeats the purpose of wearing head scarf if the purpose is not to tempt the male sex maniacs, isn't it?

On the other hand we will feel strongly offended if one of the girls got raped and got blame for it on the girl for wearing sexily and not wearing tudung.
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written by ralverd, May 19, 2008 17:07:56
If you truly are devoted to your religion, it doesn't matter what you wear or how you look. Physical appearance does not define who you are. In Malaysia you get BN goons who prays 5 times a day or arrest people who eat during Puasa times, but in fact they are the ones who commit the worst sins such as corruption. Hypocrites.

Read more at http://www.ralverd.com
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written by omarkhayyam, May 19, 2008 17:29:50
well,

sikh women wears a veil, nun also wear one ..... so do many others

i guess the whole problem is actually interpretation of ones believe verses ones perspective of another.

my take is this, u can't be more holier donning all this garbs if ur thought and deeds are worst than animal,

so whether ur wearing a scarve, hijab, veil or nothing at all doesnt matter .... let God alone judge u rather than mere mortals

and try to live and accept each others ways of religion ... frankly i love nudisme if at all that ever happenssmilies/smiley.gif

cheers
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written by sambal muncha, May 19, 2008 19:37:17
Islam is what's in the heart, and one's actions; not what's worn on the head. Simple.
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written by woogie, May 19, 2008 20:43:53
This one menutup aurat or show jambul ?



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written by Bandit, May 19, 2008 20:57:17
Does wearing clothes in a certain manner make a person more religious then others? What about a certain religious teacher who spot a serban and wear the arabian attire but influences his students saying that all non muslims are "syaitans" and should be killed? I have received many video clips of muslimahs spotting a hijab involved in oral sex. Do those spotiinga hijab are more relious then the muslimah who dont?
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written by Wongfeihong, May 19, 2008 21:00:11
"Islam is what's in the heart, and one's actions; not what's worn on the head. Simple. "

One hundred percent correct. AAA
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written by pillars, May 19, 2008 21:08:05
One Sikh man mentioned that he felt naked without his turban. I think sometime cloths and accessories is just part of the ritual. One girl mentioned that she felt naked without wearing lipstick.

People must allowed to have their own choice of clothing. Most important is the heart.

One thing for sure, veil and headscarf could make Loreal bankrupt. No need make up and hair coloring smilies/smiley.gif

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written by non partisan, May 19, 2008 21:31:04
in malaysia nobody will arrest or fine you for not wearing hijab.. so suka hati la nak pakai tudung ke tidak.. why try to enforce d belief that hijab is a restriction into another people?

bunch of hypocrites.. always complain when the umnoputera try to enforce something into ur head yet nobody complains when this article does d same too..

go on, rate me down u hypocrites..
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written by mikewang, May 19, 2008 21:31:52
Faith is a covenant between a believer and his/her Almighty.
Let no other person take that freedom away from you.
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written by OBSERVER53, May 19, 2008 22:08:50
sambal muncha.
Im a Malay, and I AGREE with u.The Malays nowadays have no more freedom.All the HYPOCRIRES are playing God.Ini boleh itu taka boleh buat [haha ]
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written by temenggong, May 19, 2008 22:26:58
This one menutup aurat or show jambul?


Show jambu!
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written by penangboi, May 19, 2008 23:02:05
I can't help but recall reading Syed Ali Akbar's 'To Digress A Little' in which he questions the arabisation of the Malay culture. To dress up like Arabs does not prove how religious a Muslim is. The problem is that in the past 20 years or so there has been an enormous shift in Malay culture towards what Syed Ali called arabisation.

One should not confuse 'culture' with 'religion' although the two are very often interlinked. Unfortunately, I believe that the arabisation of the Malay culture has not made the Muslims in Malaysia more religious.

As so aptly put forward in the article, religion is a personal tie between an individual with his/her God. How a person looks on the outside is only superficial but what is in the heart is more important if not most.

I sometimes also wonder, having lived aboard for many years, why a religion a person professes need to be reflected on the attire he/she wears. In other countries, I have met people of different types of religion but until they tell me what their beliefs are I would not have guessed. My point is that these people in other countries managed to keep their cultural identities while embracing different types of religions. But in Malaysia, if you are a Muslim, you are socially forced to dress in certain manners. If not, you will be treated like a pariah and an outcast.

An example is the mamaks. Why can't an indian keep his indian culture but at the same time embraces Islam. I am not talking about religious practice but dressing as an indian instead of pretending superficially to be a Malay (or Arab).

Our visual appearance is only superficial. We should not be forced into (or brain-washed) wearing clothing which is alien to our true culture. Malay traditional costumes like the kebaya will one day go into extinction because of this folly.
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written by Joe, May 19, 2008 23:14:34
IMHO, Islam, is regressing. Its true teachings are being misconstrued and if the prophet himself was alive to see it today will be shocked at how far away it has moved when it was first brought to earth.

Everything that has a begining, has an end.

It would seem the end of Islam on earth is nearing.
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written by ChanRaj, May 20, 2008 00:33:09
Yes it is sad to see the rich Malay culture loose its identity to "Islam" or out of ignorance adopt arab culture so that they can be closer to God. Our history and culture defines who we are, loose that and you loose the soul of your race. One of the reasons why I enjoy P.Ramlee's movies, it is so rich in Malay culture.
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written by Admiral Tojo, May 20, 2008 11:45:24
There is NO wearing of TUDUNG in Quran. So how? However if you follow the Arab Religion then you must wear tudung or they will wallop you. Then again we are Malaysians. Why we want to follow the disbelieving Arabs puzzle me to no end.

What you put IN your head is more important than what you put ON your head, do you not think so? Unless of course you are under Arab hypnosis, then it is excusable that you cannot think anymore.

Oh by the way, ISLAM is NOT a RELIGION as the disbelieving Arabs have mislead you. It is a way of life devoid of dogma, rituals and all others that the Arabs tell you. Go figure.

Shalom
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written by Admiral Tojo, May 20, 2008 11:52:41
The other day I saw a father with two young girls between 3 to 5 years old and both were wearing tudung. I asked the father as to why he thinks that his 2 daughters of such a young age are SEX objects and he could not answer me. He is SICK in the head man.

Shalom
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written by mawi, May 20, 2008 13:20:13
Admiral Tojo , the great liar.The quran did not also mention that men has to wear the songkok, you stupid freak. And since you had to ask the man on her two daughter, let me ask you then , why did you dress your daughter in cloth that make them look like girls? You are such a sexist!!
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written by mawi, May 20, 2008 13:23:11
And if Islam is not a religion, then Admiral Tojo is a super pervert
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written by mawi, May 20, 2008 13:29:28
By the way Chanraj, I would bet on my last dollar that by now, you would have lost the ability to answer question in Tamil, feel ashame to talk or even behave like a "keling" and your really really proud to act like a silly "orang Putih"
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written by Hermes, May 20, 2008 14:06:39
What the hell is wrong with you Admiral Tojo? Asking questions like that to a father whose wrong according to you is only prescribing to his religion? From your statements, it is clear that you know very little about Islam. Why dont you be fair to Islam and study a little bit from the origin of the religion i.e. the Quran itself?

Why would anybody question whether someone wears tudung or not? If she decided to wear one, good for her. If she decided not to wear one, then good for her still. Does a tudung wearer agitate other people through her tudung? It is simply a personal choice.

Does not wearing a tudung make you less of a Muslim? Maybe yes maybe not. If yes, it is not for us(muslims or nonmuslims alike) to question. Let God decides. If not, then why are we talking about it?

The author sounded as if she was proud not to wear the tudung. However, she didnt mention that even though the word 'headscarf' is not mentioned in the Quran, there are other provisions to 'cover up' certain aspects of the female body. That is the basis of the argument, which she failed to mention. Btw ChanRaj, it is unfair for you to question about Malay culture and Arab culture if you didnt know anything about either or both of them to begin with. My suggestion is, spend a lot of time studying both cultures and Islam itself before making any comments.

Lastly, it is not fair for any organisation to impose wearing headscarf. It should be treated as a personal choice and nothing more. Let's not question a muslim's obedience to his/her religion based on what he/she wears and none about his/her way of life. Even if you have something to say about it, dont. Unless, their actions transcend the limit of other people's liberty.
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written by RickK, May 20, 2008 14:25:23
"written by Naj Alhaj, May 19, 2008 | 17:24:04
I think those non muslims who doesnt know about this faith should stay away from
making comments about the practices of the muslim."

That's a standard comment from Muslims:non-Muslims should refrain from talking about things that only the ulema and "properly-educated" can.
To which I say the following:
We can't comment about your practices but I think Muslims should know how non-Muslims view those practices in relation to the rest of their behaviour. As a Christian,I cannot help having my words and actions coming under extra scrutiny and people expecting me to have higher standards and 'more holy' than others. Otherwise I will find myself coming under condemnation by my non Christian friends/colleagues.

Similarly, when we look at our friends wearing the tudung and emphasizing external appearances yet seeing newspaper photos of the same people wearing dark glasses desperately trying to avoid being photographed for some offence outside a court of law,we wonder. Then,there are the corrupted civil"servants" whose wives are told to wear the hijab.But it was this that really galled me: my personal encounter with a nicely 'tudunged'lady police officer who secretly got someone else to call me to offer me an early copy of a report I needed if I were to give a 'little extra'.Before that it was all aloofness and innuendo.("Wah, you must be very rich hoh?Sorrylah I cannot give you the report today")

To our untrained mind,it is simple:if you make yourself out to be externally religious should it not affect your behaviour?

We certainly do not presume to judge but it is our observation and wondering of the glaring dissonance between an obvious external profession and personal actions.

On an interesting note, in the middle east I saw a hijab replica(the Darul Arqam type) being worn by an Greek Orthodox Christian nun! So the hijab might have a Christian pedigree after all.Some food for thought:that in looking the proper Muslim woman you might also be looking like the proper Greek Christian woman!

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written by Admiral Tojo, May 20, 2008 15:34:00
I notice that those who follow the Arab Religion as in Mawi and Hermes gets really upset when a spade is called a spade. The Arab Religion has NOTHING to do with 'ISLAM - Peacefulness' as per Quran. One is a man made religion, complete with priesthood and institutionalisation and the other, a state of being, a very personal experience indeed. Do not be angry when people like me think that wearing tudung is silly. GOD never wants us to be silly and that is why we are given brains. Most however have surrendered their brains to the Arabs and their disbelieving agents in fancy garb.

Please do not get upset if I think you are silly, as it remains my opinion and as someone said before, opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one.

Mawi, if you see a beautiful woman and you get a hard on, it is the woman's fault is it. You cannot handle your hard on and you blame the woman? Maybe you should try wanking.

Shalom


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written by mawi, May 20, 2008 18:27:47
Brain, obviously god has not endowed you with one for sure!Arab Religion- sheesh!My advise to you is to keep your arsehole opinion to yourself if you cannot be sensitive to other people's religion.

By the way , a "beautiful" woman earns respect for sure but being beautiful and being a voluptuos nymphomaniacs sluts is two different thing altogether. But do wankers like you know the difference? After all , you wanks at everything that moves. Its just so sad that ever helpless tudung clad women and innocent children get victimised by those sluts who just happened to arouse sex maniacs.
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written by Admiral Tojo, May 20, 2008 18:49:28
Mawi,
suddenly you Arabist wants others to be sensitive is it???? Calling people apostates and body snatching and weekly indoctrination that everyone else in this world is going to hell is ok and others should not be sensitive? Bollocks to you Mawi. Aroused? Go wank. I do not get aroused at seeing women, hair and all.

So now it is the fault of the voluptous beautiful women if your tudung clad Mother mary wannabe gets assaulted by one of your goateed Arab wannabe, is it? Get real man and wake up from your hypnosis.

Salaam/Shalom
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written by Admiral Tojo, May 20, 2008 18:54:27
Oh by the way Mawi, there is NO wearing of Tudung in Quran. So how? Go ponder.

Salaam/Shalom
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written by chipon, May 20, 2008 19:24:43
Admiral Tojo, if you are a muslim then you are a damn stupid muslim.

Of course, we humans are given the 'nikmat' of having brains that could think!
But brains have limitations and it takes men hundreds of years of try and error to discover certain things. That is why God provides human with early revelations as a direct guide! These revelations covers certain things that could not be reached by simple logic or thinking mind alone.

Do you know that Quran (thousand years ago) has said that the moon has split before [54:1]? Only now western scientists have confirmed on this. Don't you think a muslim is being damn stupid to wait a thousand years for an info/knowledge from others whereby he could just accept that fact(God's revelation)much earlier??

It is the same case when the Quran reveals that there are 7 layers of sky (7 lapis langit). Now only after thousand years after Quran mentioned about it did the western scientists discovered that knowledge.

The above are just very few knowledge that God has gave us directly for free. There a lot more in the Quran.

It is only the people who do not believe in God who questions the truth of the Quran!
So please, for muslims, don't be stupid! Whatever said in the Quran are nothing but the truth. We just follow them with our iman. Maybe another thousand years after this will our grandchildren find logic proves to some facts that aren't proved yet!

After all, why would God gave revelations/guidance if we could rely on our logic thinking brains alone? Think bout it!

For non-muslims, don't question the muslim faith! I don't want to start questioning the errors of trinity and the illogical indian god's that has many arms!
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written by chipon, May 20, 2008 19:29:07
Memang Allah tak sebut pasal 'tudung'. Tetapi Quran menyebut dengan terang bahawa aurat wanita iaitu keseluruhan anggota tubuhnya kecuali muka,tangan dan tapak kakinya mestilah ditutupi! hang nak tutup kepala dengan pakai tudung ka, pakai besi ka, pakai plastik ka, ikut suka hang lah asalkan hang tutup kepala/rambut tu!!!

ishh...awat bodoh sangat hang ih?
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written by chipon, May 20, 2008 19:32:04

Tak timbul issue arabists nih. Pakailah nak pakai apapun asalkan hangpa tutup aurat tu!!
Tak semestinya kena pakai jubah dan 'veils' or tudung labuh arab! Asalkan hang tutup jer aurat tu betul-betul!
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written by chipon, May 20, 2008 19:42:04
Hangpa tau tak sebab apa dunia nih dah teruk sangat??
Inilah yang terjadi bila hangpa salah ertikan 'human rights' ni. Memanglah human rights penting tapi to what extend??
Memang ada orang kata hak seseoranglah nak minum arak atau tidak or nak jadi alim atau tak? Tetapi apa pulak hang akan buat kalau anak hang sendiri yang minum arak????? hahh...tau pulak nak marah..tentu tak timbul dah lah isu 'human rights' nih kan kalau dah kena pada anak sendiri?? tak kan kita nak buat bodoh bahlul jer bila anak kita kata 'hak aku lah nak minum arak ker tak!'

So apa yang aku nak habaq kat hangpa-hangpa ni ialah kita kena selalu nasihat-menasihati antara satu sama lain..dan marah lah seseorang itu jika apa yg dibuatnya tak betul! Jangan nak tunggu kalau kena tang anak kita sendiri baru kita nak ambil tindakan..tu namanya double standard!!!

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written by faridib, May 21, 2008 15:32:54
admiral tojo seems to be so sure that there in command to wear the tudung in the Quran coz he reads (if he does!) with that 'passion' and misconceived thoughts that such obligation, including performing the hajj, etc are all arab culture. I don't know if many of you realise that this character will make his appearance only when such islamophobic issues are broached.

I'll say it again & again that the Quran stipulates for the covering of the aurat(parts of the body not permitted to be seen,except by some eg husbands, fathers,etc). Here's the proof:

Surah An Nur:30-31
"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity of them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: they should not display their ornaments except what must ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty..."

and Surah Al Ahzab:59

"Oh Prophet! Tell your wives and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks all over their body that will be better that they should be known (as free respectable Muslim women) and so as they will not be annoyed (by men)...."

So how do you propose the women to 'draw their veils over their bosoms'??? Hang some cloth from the ear?

"Islam is what's in the heart, and one's actions; not what's worn on the head", says sambal muncha. RIGHT! The action is covering the 'aurat' in accordance with God's command. And if the heart fears God, have faith in HIS divine words & loyal to the prophet's sayings & actions (as ordained in the Quran), there shouldn't be any problem in adhering to His commands.

Granted that some muslim women do not fully understand the real need or implication to don the tudung & hence involve themselves in unbecoming behaviour but that doesn't mean that they should go without the tudung; what they need is proper understanding & guidance of the Islamic principles. Their bad behaviour is one sin, but by donning the tudung they're less with one other sin.

admiral tojo is unpeculiarly obsessed with the arab religion, whatever that means, but does he know that Arabs make up less than one quarter or abt 15% of the world's 1.4 billion Muslims? In fact, there are more Muslims in Indonesia than in all Arab countries combined. There are women Talk facts & sense, pls or else just shut.

And as for those muslim women who wrote to convince that the veil is not mandatory, I suggest they do what they like... to don or not to don.... But stopmaking that propaganda that it's conservative & repressive; it's bad enough that you wish to affront God's mandate.
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written by faridib, May 21, 2008 15:36:44
Sorry for the part 'There are women'... the last sentence of the 2nd last para. It shld be deleted.
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written by Admiral Tojo, May 21, 2008 18:53:31
Dear Faridib,
thank you for putting forth all the above verses as it will prove that you have been and continue to be mislead by the disbelieving Arabs. The ulema repeat the same mistake in that they simply cannot quote a verse from the Quran properly or accurately. They want to defend what they have defined as 'Hijaab', but they reject all verses in Quran that mention 'Hijaab', instead they pick another totally unrelated word called 'khimar' and say 'khimar' is now 'hijab' or headcovering. This I call the ulema shuffle.

In An Nur 24:31, the ulema say that the word 'khumur' means head covering. 'Khumur' being the plural for 'khimaar'. Let us see what 24;31 say;
"And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their chasity; that they should not display their beauty except appears from her; that they should strike their covers upon their bossom and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brother's sons, or their sister's sons, or their women, or those whom their right hand possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of woman's nakedness (AWRAATI AL NISSAA); and that they should not strike withn their feet in order to draw attention to what is hidden from their beauty (YUKHFEENA MIN ZEENATIHINNA). And O believers, turn ye all togather towards GOD, that they may attain Bliss."

The word 'Walyadribna bikhumurihinna AAala juyoobihinna' means 'cover their bosoms with their clothes'. The above verse simply says that the women must cover their bosoms with their garments. No mention of HEAD in this verse at all. KHUMUR does not mean head covering at all. KHUMUR simply means something that covers, in this context it is the clothes that must be pulled over the bosom.

There are no mention of veils too in the above verse.
The Ulema says that 'HIJAAB" means 'VEIL'. Hijab appears in 7:46, 17:45, 19:17, 33:53, 38:32, 41:5, 42:51 and it means barrier, a curtain or divider and not 'veil'.

With regards to Al-Ahzaab 33:59 the verse say;
O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters, and the beleivig women to lenghten their garments. Thus they will be recognised and will not be insulted. God is forgiver, merciful.

Again no mention of Head, Veil or any such Arab corruption of what is a very direct verse.

So bollocks to you Faridib for lying about GOD and saying that the wearing of tudung is GOD's mandate. IT is the mandate of your disbelieving MULLAHS and we know that they are never GOD.

Salaam/Shalom
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written by Admiral Tojo, May 21, 2008 18:57:12
For reference to the Arab Religion please visit aididsafar.com and happy reading.

Salaam
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written by DontPlayGod, May 22, 2008 12:19:43
Naj Alhaj wrote:

"I think those non muslims who doesnt know about this faith should stay away from making comments about the practices of the muslim. Muslims does nt want to engage in any quarrel with worshippers of other faith. So, we, malaysian should just do our own things and focus on issues which benefits the nation!!

Tell me, friend, in this world, who can claim that he knows about any "faith", who can call himself an expert in religion? Your ayatollah, Imam, Monk, chief priest, Bishop(God's agents?) All religions were written by men, long after the prohets have passed away. The religious scriptures were never vetted or approved by any prophets, angels, or God. How accurate can these religious texts be? Please friends, just try to understand the gist or essence of what the scriptures say or hint, and use our own brains and act accoring to our conscience and human decency. And while we are on this, stop quoting this verse and that verse, as if those verses come directly from the mouth of God.

And while we are also on this topic, God created us naked(i.e. if we believe in creation). He did not supply us clothes then, as clothes were invented by men thousands and thousands of years after creation. Early mankind lived in caves, near naked, and gradually became civilized tens of thusands of years later and invented/designed clothes and other things.

So what's this about the importance of the headscarf?
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written by Rainbowseahorse, May 22, 2008 14:12:02
faridib wrote: "..In fact, there are more Muslims in Indonesia than in all Arab countries combined..."
Hmmmm, yes indeed, and also there are more Muslim prostitutes in Indonesia than any other Muslim countries.
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written by Admiral Tojo, May 22, 2008 15:23:31
>>>faridib wrote: "..In fact, there are more Muslims in Indonesia than in all Arab countries combined..."

Yes, this is the power of mass hypnosis. WTF Indonesians, with all their glorious past, in culture, song and literature succumb to wanting to be Arabs?

Quoting Einstein;
"The three phases of human evolution. First they were animists, they created GOD's to allay their fears. Then they institutionalised these pagan GOD's into what we know as popular religions of the World. The rest who progress and dropped these PAGAN GOD's, can see the STRUCTUREDNESS of the Universe that gives foundation to scientific research, most however are still PAGANs."

When asked to comment on popular religions, he said they were all collections of Childish pranks. Einstein was neither a Jew nor an atheist. Go figure.

Salaam/Shalom


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written by faridib, May 23, 2008 14:41:38
The list of commands contained in verses 24:31 & 33:59.is as follows:

1) Lower the gaze (24:31)

2) Guard the private parts (24:31)

3) Not display their beauty "except what is apparent of it" (24:31)

4) Extend the khimar to cover the bosom (24:31)

5) Not display their beauty beyond "what is apparent of it" except to the people listed in 24:31

6) Not stamp their feet so as to reveal hidden beauty (24:31)

7) Draw the jilbab close around them when abroad (33:59)



What does "except what is apparent" mean? This is one of the passages in the Quran that is not clear in meaning (see Surah Ali Imran ayah 7). This is one of the passages in the Quran that the Prophet (pbuh) needs to explain. And Surah an-Nahl ayah 44 (see above) tells us that the Prophet will explain the Quran. The Prophet's explanation of "what is apparent" is the face and the hands.

If a woman must conceal all of her beauty except her face and hands, she must necessarily be concealing her hair. After all, the hair is said to be a woman's crown.. and beauty; so are the breasts.

I suggest tojo & gang do not try to interpret the Quran by just looking up in some dictionary what the meaning of the root KHAMARA means.
Each of the forms derived from this root may have a specific meaning. In order to interpret the Quran properly you need to know what the specific meaning of the particular form "khimar" was in the Arabic of the Prophet(pbuh). To dictionaries that have preserved the classical Arabic, & to the reports of the actual practice of the women of that time, the khimar is a HEADCOVERING. Scholars have agreed unanimously that the khimar is a HEADCOVERING. IImam Abu Abdullah Qurtubi describes the historical circumstances relating to the wearing of the khimar in pre-Islamic Arabia as follows, "Women in those days used to cover their heads with the khimar, throwing its ends upon their backs. This left the neck and the upper part of the chest bare, along with the ears, in the manner of the Christians. Then Allah commanded them to cover those parts with the khimar". Imam Abu'l-Fida ibn Kathir in his report, "'Draw their khumur to cover their bosoms' means that they should wear the khimar in such a way that they cover their chests so that they will be different from the women of the jahiliyyah who did not do that but would pass in front of men with their chests uncovered and with their necks, forelocks, hair and earrings uncovered". Both of these descriptions provide clear, explicit, specific explanations of what "extend their khimars to cover their bosoms" means.
But because YOU do not like the headcover, you prefer to interpret something else.

Can you present any hadiths or other Arabic writing of the time of the Prophet (pbuh)that use the word "khimar" to mean a shirt or any type of covering other than a HEADCOVERING? Can you present entries from dictionaries of classical Arabic that fail to give HEADCOVERING as a definition of "khimar"? Can you present reports of the dress of the pre-Islamic Arab women that apply the word "khimar" to other than a HEADCOVERING? Can you present opinions of the ulama that the khimar is other than a HEADCOVERING?(remember the role of ulamas mentioned above in the Quran ie 4:59).

Lets say that if someone told you to "extend your hat to cover your ears" you would know automatically that the hat is a heacovering because that is what the word "hat" means in English, and you would understand automatically that the hat is to remain on the head while being extended down to cover the ears.

I'd like to remind muslims that the major objectors to daawah are the modern Malays, the so-called 'liberal Muslims' masquerading as Champions of womens' rights and the rights of muslims of today! Many are all clamouring for media attention and besmear the ulama's and the religious institution of Malaysia whilst the authorities are trying to stop the rot that's taking place in our society!
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written by faridib, May 23, 2008 14:59:28
I forgot to mention that the essence of all adherence by muslims should also be based on the Quran. Allah SWT says repeatedly in the Quran to obey both Him and the Messenger. Surah an-Nisa:59 is clear on this:

"O you, those who have faith, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you dispute over a thing, then return it to Allah and the Messenger, if you have faith in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more beautiful of interpretation".

And sadly tojo rejects the ulamas & Islamic scholars & tries to convince us his interpretation is the right one. I would at any time prefer the former, who have done extensive studies than a layman & a religious bigot. No, thank you!
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written by Admiral Tojo, May 24, 2008 16:29:14
Wow Faridib,
so many GODs you have. Imam this and Imam that, whatever they say you take in toto. Twist and turn to justify.

Bt the way Muhammad does not exist in Quran. So whatever he said or did (according to Persians) are irrelevant.

Wearing the tudung is a symbol of subservience and signifies that you have surrendered your minds to your Mullah, thus the inability to think.
Ponder!
Shalom
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