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Peace or war, it is our choice PDF Print
Tuesday, 29 April 2008 12:29

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So anyone who perpetrates this heinous crime against humanity should fear what Allah has said about killing of human beings without justification. It is similar to the killing of one’s self and society at large.

Ikim Views
By SUZALIE MOHAMAD, THE STAR

 

Jihad with its multitude of branches has very strict rules, especially when it relates to confrontation with an enemy.

ONE cannot find words strong enough to condemn the Sept 11, 2001 tragedy. It is not human if one does not share the pain and suffering that the affected families are going through and will endure for a long, long time to come.

Those who choose to define this violent act as jihad or “holy war” need to know that Islam is such a structured and comprehensive guidance that even the procedure to attend to the call of nature is explicitly taught to us by the Messenger of Allah. If one follows those rules while going to the bathroom, it becomes an act of worship.

Islam had nothing to do with this action (Sept 11), even if, after a thorough investigation, those that perpetrated it turned out to have Muslim names or had come from Muslim lands.

Islam does not permit violence. Unfortunately many ignorant Muslims and non-Muslims are not fully aware of this fact, or choose not to acknowledge it.

Jihad with its multitude of branches has very strict rules, especially when it relates to confrontation with an enemy. Indiscriminate killing or harming of women, children, old men, people who take refuge in their houses, animals and even plants, especially those of economic value, is forbidden at all cost.

War is permitted in Islam, just as it is permitted in many other religions, provided it is a pure act of defending the religion, life and state.

The act of waging a war is bound with condition and responsibility. Waging war must be justified with ample evidence that allows defensive actions to be initiated. No war without valid evidence will be engaged since war means killing people.

On this basis, Islam clearly stipulates to only fight (defending oneself) in the cause of Allah against those who fight you, but do not transgress limits as we all know that Allah does not love transgressors.

The war must be immediately ceased if the enemy seeks peace, and we are obliged to enter into a peaceful deal. War is the last resort, and is subject to the rigorous conditions laid down by the syariah.

So anyone who perpetrates this heinous crime against humanity should fear what Allah has said about killing of human beings without justification. It is similar to the killing of one’s self and society at large.

The verse referred to (al Ma’idah 5:32): “We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone slew a person, unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land, it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if anyone saved a life it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear Signs yet even after that many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.”

The fundamental teaching of Islam is to respect and help each other, no other than to seek His blessing so that we can live harmoniously and fully benefit in the life before death on this earth.

The so call Muslim fundamentalists who fully adhere to the fundamentalist teaching of Islam will definitely abide by this rule and bring prosperity to their neighbours and society. It is thus absurd to associate what terrorists have done with Islam.

If one looks at history, especially since the rise of Europe, and of the United States now, and what has been the effect of this rise on the Muslims, one can easily see why there is so much resentment against this domination.

The Crusades, the super-holocaust in Spain and many other parts of Europe, oppressive demolition of the Khilafat, more than two centuries of colonial oppression, and more recently 50 years of oppression and bloodshed in Palestine and Kashmir, more than 50,000 children dead in Iraq, and innumerable other unjustifiable massacres and oppressive wars, have driven many impatient Muslims to desperation.

It is human nature that in a situation of desperation people commit insane deeds.

In this case, many misled Muslims, victims of situation, have taken the law into their own hands to solve problems.

Despite wrong images having been painted of Islam around the globe, people want to know more about Islam. Why its followers react as such, emotionally? What makes the noble content of Islam misinterpreted? To the fact that Islam is growing all over the world, especially in the Western hemisphere.

Why is this happening? Because they know that Islam can provide them with peace and tranquillity, turning them into dignified persons.

The least religious leaders of society therefore are advised not to sensationalise or distort Christian-Muslim relations into a confrontation issue by rallying people to continue with the “Crusade”.

This is unwise thinking and behaviour. It not only provides justification for the crimes of the terrorists and may provoke them further, but also makes the work of those who wish to bring about a change in the world through peaceful means harder.

We, as peace lovers, must work hard to defeat the confrontational, domineering and “crusade-minded” attitude of any government through dialogue and peaceful means, to the best of our endurance, and not let those who are ignorant of Islamic law and impatient in their attitude take unjustifiable and unlawful shortcuts through terrorist attacks.

It does not serve Islam well and is despised in the sight of Allah.

Comments (36)Add Comment
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written by FFT, April 29, 2008 12:34:27
Put into practice what you espouse in theory, then we'll talk.
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written by temenggong, April 29, 2008 12:51:16
This articles reminds on the 'wrath of allah' for wrongs done.

Well why care what allah thinks? It is frivolous and presumptuous. We don't do wrong or go to war because our conscience dictates otherwise. I though it was the same with other human beings.

We don't need reminders from books or 'threats from heaven'. That has never worked as history amply demonstrates. People just don't believe in hearsay. They prove it daily.

People do wrong because they have no conscience, or the voice of conscience cannot be heard. Simple.
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written by HARIMAU BIN ABDULLAH, April 29, 2008 13:06:02
What goes up must come down
High tide follow by low tide
Familiarity breeds contempt
Peace follow by war, and then peace again.
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written by slash n burn, April 29, 2008 13:07:04
Islam had nothing to do with this action (Sept 11), even if, after a thorough investigation, those that perpetrated it turned out to have Muslim names or had come from Muslim lands.

Southern Philipines..
Southern Thailand..
Chechen..
Somalia..
Palestine..
Iraq..
Pakistan..
Afganisthan..

What a coincidence.
Something seriously to be done to stop the sterotype and stop blaming others for the misery.
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written by ralverd, April 29, 2008 13:18:23
Using religion as a tool to wage war is just idiotic. Its killing for nothing. Our lives are worth much more than the writings on the Quran, Bible, Sutra etc. Nowadays, most people understand this and perhaps thats why the Muslims were condemned for terrorism in the name of their God. Its a sad thing too, since almost all Muslims are peaceful, nice people. Too bad.

Read my NEW political blog : Ralverd.********.com
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written by pkler, April 29, 2008 13:18:43
It seems to me that there needs to be a shock to the system-articles such as these which proclaim that Islam is peaceful and al-Qaeda are behaving outside the tenets of Islam are a dime a dozen. The main issue as I see it is that I cannot recall a single Muslim leader (or a Muslim head of state ) once strongly, unconditionally, and unequivocally proclaim on CNN/al-Jazeera/BBC that al-Qaeda is wrong, that Osama is a terrorist, that Wahabbism are as much to blame as Western subjugation. They seem scared to look like Western lackeys, and continue their 'softly-softly' approach. Well, its not working. Where's the hero to break the mould, go on telly and say to Muslims that we need to seriously take a look at where our religion is today and stop just blaming others all the time?

It is time that non-Muslims see everyday Muslims reclaim their religion from vested interests. Till then, all these articles continue to influence only the periphery of various debates on the issue. Talk is good, well and fine-how about some action?
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written by Batangkali, April 29, 2008 13:32:16
The Jihad in every muslim should be to prove to the kafirs that Islam cannot be stero-typed by deeds and not words alone.

There must be leadership within the Umma to speak out against injustices not only for muslims but for non muslims as well.

Muslim must ACT against accorded to muslim and non muslims as well.

Action speak louder than words.
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written by Ken Liew, April 29, 2008 14:08:02
Althought I'm no Islam, But I DO hate those morons who use religion as a tool to gain wealth.

By forcing or by cheating, USING PEOPLE BELIEVES IS JUST NOT RIGHT~!!

Ones religion should be respected. As politic should not MIX with religion.

As the Olympic are in a mess, because the people mis politic with sport.

And Malaysia is a mess, is the same cause, because our old government have politic this and politic that. same goes to Education
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written by Negarakuku, April 29, 2008 15:05:37
Her crime was to fall in love because she was born Muslim and he is now. She paid with her life.

When 17-year old Rand Abdel-Qader met a British soldier in Basra, she dreamt of romance. But five months later she was murdered in a savage attack by her father. But there will be no trial: this was an 'honour killing'.

Rand Abdel-Qader, 17, told her closest friend that she was in love from the moment she set eyes on the young British soldier working alongside her in Basra, and she dreamed of a future with him. It was an innocent infatuation but five months after Rand, a student of English at Basra University, met Paul, a 22-year-old soldier posted to southern Iraq, she was dead.

She was stamped on, suffocated and stabbed by her father. Several brutal knife wounds punctured her slender, bruised body - from her face to her feet. He had done it, he proclaimed to the neighbours who soon gathered round, to 'cleanse his honour'.

And as Rand was put into the ground, without ceremony, her uncles spat on her covered corpse because she had brought shame on the family. Her crime was the worst they could possibly imagine - she had fallen in love with a British soldier and dared to talk to him in public. Rand was murdered last month. That the relationship was innocent was no defence. She had been seen conversing intimately with Paul. It was enough to condemn her, because he was British, a Christian, 'the invader', and the enemy. The two met while he was helping to deliver relief aid to displaced families in the city and she was working as a volunteer. They continued to meet through their relief work in the following months. Rand last saw Paul in January, two months before her death. It was only on 16 March that her father, Abdel-Qader Ali, learned of their friendship.

He was told by a friend, who worked closely with police, that Rand had been seen with Paul at one of the places they both worked as volunteers. Enraged, he headed straight home to demand an explanation from his daughter.
'When he entered the house, his eyes were bloodshot and he was trembling,' said Rand's mother, Leila Hussein, tears streaming down her face as she recalled her daughter's murder. 'I got worried and tried to speak to him but he headed straight for our daughter's room and he started to yell at her.' 'He asked if it was true that she was having an affair with a British soldier. She started to cry. She was nervous and desperate. He got hold of her hair and started thumping her again and again. 'I screamed and called out for her two brothers so they could get their father away from her. But when he told them the reason, instead of saving her they helped him end her life,' she said.
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written by Negarakuku, April 29, 2008 15:09:26
She said Ali used his feet to press down hard on his own daughter's throat until she was suffocated. Then he called for a knife and began to cut at her body. All the time he was calling out that his honour was being cleansed.
'I just couldn't stand it. I fainted.' recalled Leila. 'I woke up in a blur later with dozens of neighbours at home and the local police.'

According to Leila, her husband was initially arrested. 'But he was released two hours later because it was an "honour killing". And, unfortunately, that is something to be proud of for any Iraqi man.' At the police station where the father was held Sergeant Ali Jabbar told The Observer last week: 'Not much can be done when we have an "honour killing" case. You are in a Muslim society and women should live under religious laws. 'The father has very good contacts inside the Basra government and it wasn't hard for him to be released and what he did to be forgotten. Sorry but I cannot say more about the case.'
Rand, considered impure, was given only a simple burial. To show their repugnance at her alleged crime, her family cancelled the traditional mourner ceremony. Two weeks after the murder, Leila left Ali. She could no longer bear to live under the same roof as her daughter's killer and asked for a divorce. 'I was beaten and had my arm broken by him,' she said. 'No man can accept being left by a woman in Iraq. But I would prefer to be killed than sleep in the same bed with a man who was able to do what he did to his own daughter, who, over the years, had only given him unconditional love.'

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written by Negarakuku, April 29, 2008 15:10:35
Now she works for a women's organisation campaigning against honour killings. 'I just want to try to stop other girls having the same fate as my beloved Rand,' said Leila who is forced to move regularly from friend to friend
A colleague of Leila's said: 'We prefer to change places each two weeks to prevent targeting. She has been threatened again by her husband's family and is very scared.' Throughout her friendship with Paul, Rand confided in only one person, her best friend Zeinab, 19. 'She used to say that her charity work had more than one meaning now. From the first time she saw him, she was helping needy families but also that Paul was helping her. With just a simple, caring smile, he was able to give her the sense of love, making her forget all about the hard and depressing life in Iraq,' said Zeinab. The two teenagers had spent hours talking about him,' she said. 'She loved to speak about his blond hair, his honey eyes, his white skin and the sweet way he had of speaking.

'He was very different from the local men who usually are tough and illiterate. I was in heaven when she was speaking about him. Everything looked so beautiful.
'But, I always had to remind Rand that she was a Muslim and her family was never going to accept her marrying a Christian, British soldier'.
'Unfortunately she never wanted to hear me. Her mind was very far from reality, but closer to an impossible dream.' Paul gave Rand gifts. She kept them - and him - secret from her family and asked Zeinab to take care of these small tokens of his affection for her. He gave her a charming cuddly animal. 'She couldn't take it home so she asked me to keep it for her,' said Zeinab. 'It's hard to look at it every day,' she said. Rand told Zeinab she and Paul had met only four times, though Zeinab doubts this. Their meetings were always in public and through the voluntary work that Paul carried out as part of his regiment's peacekeeping duties. Rand had an excellent command of English and spoke it fluently and that, said Zeinab, allowed them to communicate freely without others around understanding what they were saying. 'She was the only one who could speak English and it made it easier for her to get closer "through words" to him,' she said. Soon Rand began giving different and elaborate excuses to her family to enable her to continue her voluntary work. She persuaded her father that her work was vital in helping families. And she began paying daily visits to displacement camps, local aid agencies and hospitals in the hope of bumping into Paul. 'He used to tell her all about England. She told me his father had died from a disease and that it was a really sad story,' said Zeinab.

'She liked to speak about how couples could live together in his country. He told her that flowers could be found on every corner and he promised to take her one day to buy some in the streets of London. She was a fan of London and he told her about all the tourists attractions there.'
'But the thing she used to like talking about best was how he praised her beauty and her intelligence. She told me he called her "princess".'
Despite knowing how dangerous the consequences of her actions could be, and the punishment she faced if caught, her passion for Paul grew stronger, said Zeinab. 'She never did anything more than talk to him. She was proud to be a virgin and had a dream to give herself to the man she loved only after her marriage. But she was seen as an animal,' said Zeinab.

'What they did to her was ugly and pathetic. Rand was just a young girl with romantic dreams. She always kept her religion close to her heart. She would never even hurt a petal on a rose.'
Last year 133 women were killed in Basra - 47 of them for so-called 'honour killings', according to the Basra Security Committee. Out of those 47 cases there have been only three convictions for murder.
Since January this year, 36 women have been killed.

Killing seems a way of life in Islam. If this is wrong in Islam, what will the Islamic scholars and religious leaders do about it?
ACT NOW for the future of human race !!!!!! smilies/angry.gif smilies/sad.gif smilies/shocked.gif smilies/cry.gif
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written by Negarakuku, April 29, 2008 15:14:43
*Typo. It should be written...

Her crime was to fall in love because she was born Muslim and he is NOT. smilies/angry.gif smilies/sad.gif smilies/shocked.gif smilies/cry.gif smilies/cool.gif smilies/shocked.gif smilies/sad.gif smilies/angry.gif

Maybe this will happen in Malaysia boleh too or maybe it has already happened which we are not aware of???!!!
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written by Don Corleone, April 29, 2008 15:45:21
What was Altantuya's crime then ?
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written by Remo, April 29, 2008 15:54:23
This is a very sensitive issue to talk about. Hope no one will be hurt when discussing about this topic. I will say that every religion has it's own good thing. Teaches most good things but there are also certain things are not really logical. I mean certain points cannot be accepted. No religion is 100% perfect in their teaching. There are also some foolish thing has been taught. We have to think rationally.

I wonder why most of us don't want to accept any weak points in one's religion. No religion is above one religion. When talk about it we start to get emotional and angry.

Jihad is something not applicable or relevant anymore. It was taught may be 1000s of years ago. WHEN MOST OF THE MANKIND ARE STUPID

We are all mankind with education. Why must we mankind fight over religion. Fight over one another. We must learn how to respect other religion and then only we call ourself matured. We don't know about other religion but we keep saying ours is the best. Don't you think that this is stupidity?

I respect all religions. They are all good and they all teaches good things. Guide us and show us the way to live our life.

Forget about 'JIHAD' ALREADY OUT DATED smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif
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written by cillipepper, April 29, 2008 16:06:33
Dear negarakuku,

Honour in Malaysia, I can recall 2 incidences.

1. Murder of Muslim coverts in a cabin by their Hindu relatives in the vacinity of Old Klang Road in late '80s/early'90s. No one has been charged. Murderer(s) still free sipping tea tarik.

2. Murder of Muslims students in Kerling temple. Charges were brought against several Hindus who waited in ambush at the temple but can't remember the verdict and sentence.

Anybody would like to add?
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written by 98PercentPrimate, April 29, 2008 16:12:39
War is permitted in Islam, just as it is permitted in many other religions, provided it is a pure act of defending the religion, life and state.
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Which many other religion?
As far as i know, Buddhism had never condone war nor it's holy texts has any verses which are vulnerable to be misinterpretated for violence. Christianity had been defanged by the new OT. War in Hinduism is only metaphorical.

As humans evolve and progress, religions texts should never deal or associated with war at all. Leave war to the politicians and political animals.
Religions should be confined to provide spiritual food and development for the mind and spirit of humans (including the politicians) towards peace.

Politics and war should be independent of religion to enable a check and balance for the progress of humanity.
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written by cillipepper, April 29, 2008 16:13:19
Dear Remo,

Jihad is applicable and relevant till Doomsday.

Jihad is not outdated.

Every true Muslim wishes to be martyred in Jihad.

The Martyred are not "dead". They request the Lord to allow them to come down to earth to be martyred. However their wishes were not granted.

The Lord knows better.

SubhanAllah!

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written by cillipepper, April 29, 2008 16:14:39
....correction...

Honour killing in Malaysia, ....
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written by cillipepper, April 29, 2008 16:19:20
Dear Don Corleone,

Altatuya crime:

The trial is not over yet.
I leave it to Najib, Abd Razak & the 2 utk fellas to answer.

They are renegades who brought shame to Muslims.
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written by Malaysiaputra, April 29, 2008 16:24:55

According to Leila, her husband was initially arrested. 'But he was released two hours later because it was an "honour killing".

======

Honour killing ?. What a "beautiful" term for murderers to escape persecution. What type of love has the father for her child. None here I would say. It is killing in a fit of rage which under normal circumstances would have one charged for murder or manslaughter. In this case by claiming honour killing, he goes scott free. He is the judge , jury and executioner , and without a fair trial.

How come the father is playing God ?. He will have to answer for it when he dies. I am sure this holier than thou father has his own buckets full of sins, yet he wants to play God. Real sickening in deed.
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written by 98PercentPrimate, April 29, 2008 16:53:46
It is human nature that in a situation of desperation people commit insane deeds.
In this case, many misled Muslims, victims of situation, have taken the law into their own hands to solve problems.
-----------------------------

The critical point is not to blame, but to recognize reality to prevent violence arising from the above situation.

It is unavoidable that a certain % of any population are likely to be insane or mentally unstable. If it is 10% in any population, we would have 130! millions mentally unstable muslims around the world. It only take a few to influence the majority of gullibles to create havoc. That is the reality.

It is a reality that misled muslim commit violence by 'mis-interpretating' certain verses in the Quran or hadiths.
The situation to these sensitive muslim minority is that, any comments on the Quran, Allah and his messenger could be construed as 'war', 5:33, and they take action into their own hands to kill, maim or threaten violence. Note, Theo Van Gogh, Danish Cartoons, Wilders, Salman Rusdie, etc.
In fact, there are minority muslims who condemn moderates who compromise the Quranic verses and do not follow them literally. Who is suppose to be right or wrong?

Thus the presence of the minority incurable mentally unstable % of the muslim community and the vulnerable verses would be a permanent recipe for continual violence on Earth.

It is this reality that non-muslim are wary of the concept of islamic state as it can go any direction should extremists hijack the government.

One solution is to get rid of all verses that are vulnerable to wrong interpretation so that there is no opportunity for the misled muslims to use the holy text as an excuse for violence.

I can anticipate the majority will say, but Allah's holy book is final and cannot be changed. So we are in a catch-22 situation and the linkage of violence by misled muslims mis-interpretating certain verses from the Quran will continue.

Come on, deal with reality not NATO.
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written by seek justice, April 29, 2008 17:44:30
Please everyone, Muslims and non-Muslims, fellow Malaysian. Plese read RPK's piece in rebuttal to this stupid, myopic IKIM article.

We cannot let religion come between us, not now, not ever. We all came from the same, ONE source and HE is the only ONE we are going back to.

As far as I'm concerned, IKIM is a shit-stirrer! Let's move on.
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written by Remo, April 29, 2008 17:56:04
Dear Cillipeper, as I mentioned earlier, I don't mean to hurt or look down on any religion. If it would have hurt you, I am sorry.

It is very sensitive to discuss unless we are willing to look at it rationally.

Your version Jihad is a believe. I absolutely agree with you. You have all the right to believe the teaching.

As for me talk about my religious teaching I also think for myself whether it is acceptable or not. I don't just read and follow blindly. I don't agree with the content 100%. There are at times this is a question mark.

It is very difficult to get people who follow this teachings 100%. They adjust according to their need. No one can claim they follow the book. What is the teaching for? Write book for the sake writing?

No Christians follow the bible 100%, No Indians follow the Bagavathgeethai 100% neither No Muslims follow the Kitab 100%.

So what is so great about having all these? When Christian kills another Christian, Hindhu kills another Hindhu and Muslim kills another Muslim.

I think we have to learn how to LOVE ALL MANKIND, NOT THE THE RELIGION.
There won't be bomb blast or Assassination.
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written by chanatak, April 29, 2008 18:01:18
Despite wrong images having been painted of Islam around the globe,


Why look so far. See how Jakim is doing that here in Malaysia. See how UMNO muslims are doing that to the religion that boast so much about. See how the religious department enforcers go about their job snooping around parks and bedrooms. See how the news reports about ustazs molesting the young children.

The people who profess the religion of Islam are the ones who are destroying it.
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written by cillipepper, April 29, 2008 18:41:29
Dear Remo,

Allow me to correct the contradiction here.
"LOVE ALL MANKIND, NOT THE RELIGION."

Love all mankind is very consistent with the teaching of Islam and the practice of the Prophet pbuh.
"My Ummah"(You, me and the rest of us)was the last word uttered by the Prophet pbuh on his deathbed,not once but three times.

Islam and the Prophet pbuh is the Religion.
You can't have one and ignore the other.

You got to have both.
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written by hardworking_taxpayer, April 29, 2008 18:44:23
I just want to relate a story which happened recently to someone close to me. Let's call him "B". B forwarded an e-mail with pictures of an 8 year old kid whose hand was to be run over by a bus. This was his punishment for stealing a bread. At the top of the pic, it states "That's not what Islam is about". The e-mail further states that this actually happened in IRAN. B thought he was doing good when he forwarded this e-mail to everyone to raise awareness that this was being done to a kid in the name of Islam. THEN, someone (M) from the government office threatened B that he will report this to the authorities.
Now...you judge for yourself how tolerant are muslims in Malaysia.
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written by Negarakuku, April 29, 2008 19:06:49
written by cillipepper, April 29, 2008 | 16:13:19

Dear Remo,

Jihad is applicable and relevant till Doomsday.

Jihad is not outdated.

Every true Muslim wishes to be martyred in Jihad.

The Martyred are not "dead". They request the Lord to allow them to come down to earth to be martyred. However their wishes were not granted.

The Lord knows better.

SubhanAllah!

"The Martyred are not "dead"."

How many came back to tell you ??? I am sorry to tell you that you have been trick !!!!!!!!

Ask you Lord if killing is right? If he tells you it is, I rest my case. smilies/smiley.gif smilies/wink.gif smilies/cheesy.gif smilies/grin.gif
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written by cillipepper, April 29, 2008 19:27:05
Dear Negarakuku,

Unlawful killing is WRONG.


And I call these 2 murders unlawful killings:

"Honour Killing in Malaysia"

1. Murder of Indian Muslim converts in a cabin by their Indian Hindu relatives in the vacinity of Old Klang Road in late '80s/early'90s. No one has been charged. Murderer(s) still at large and free sipping tea tarik/toddy.

2. Murder of Muslims students in Kerling temple. Charges were brought against several Hindus who waited in ambush at the temple but can't remember the verdict and sentences.

Got it!

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written by cillipepper, April 29, 2008 19:35:24
Dear Negarakuku,

Its people like you the Martyrs would love to slay.
Please do be careful and don't belittle the Lord.

The Lord have mercy on the Believers.

Righteous will always triumph over the wrongdoers.
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written by Eskay Lim, April 29, 2008 20:07:45
During the Crusades & the holywars, fighting & killing was excusable because during those times, religious armies fought wars as each army was trying to conquer each other's country. Wars are still being fought due to political ideologies betwen countries, and even among peoples of the same country. Rebellions, military coups & take-overs also kill many people.
But calling for "jihad" or holywar, killing or assassination on individuals by another person is too ridiculous. Take the case of the Johore student who made the "darahnya halal dibunuh" call on a politician because he insulted Islam is too much.It seems like every Muslim individual can call for someone to be killed because of Islam. Isn't it time religious experts & scholars say something on this matter?
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written by hamid, April 29, 2008 21:00:16
Jihad with its multitude of branches has very strict rules, especially when it relates to confrontation with an enemy.

ENEMY Where in Quran stated that war is the confrontation with an enemy??? Quran strictly stated that every war is the confrontation with an nonbelievers(KAFIR). That is main reson non-muslims hate Islam so mush !

The writer of the above quote is HYPOCRITE !! smilies/angry.gif
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written by renoir, April 29, 2008 23:17:25
RPK's contention of similarities regarding religion and war is justified, not contradicted, by the statements below.

1.Christianity had been defanged by the new OT. War in Hinduism is only metaphorical.

2.But calling for "jihad" or holywar, killing or assassination on individuals by another person is too ridiculous.

In statement 1, the writer wanted to say, I think, that the OT has been defanged by Christianity. This, however, is not really the case, as most Christians would tell you that they consider both the OT and NT as part of their religion. To prove this, they would cite passages in which Christ purportedly said that he came to carry out the laws (in the OT), not to refute them.

All this shows the importance of regarding all literature, religious or otherwise, contextually. What was the situation which could've prompted Christ to assert that he came to fulfill God's laws? Could it be that he was already making too many enemies, and thus thought it wise to give some legitimacy to the OT? Or perhaps he thought that his teachings would be strengthened and accepted only when they were seen as a continuation of the OT? For all its weaknesses, the OT was also full of wise and colorful ideas and events that could shower the new religion (Christianity) with added mystic.

Whatever the case, it would take a very courageous person to claim that Christianity is a religion of peace, given the 600-year history of slaughter and extermination of native peoples by "Christian" countries. The Christians also killed each other by the millions in the Protestant-Catholic wars in Germany and other parts of Europe. Thousands upon thousands of people had been hung, decapitated, or burned at stake as heretics or "witches" - among them Joan of Arc and a slew of high caliber scientists such as Giodarno Bruno. Cromwell slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Irish people in the name of his Lord, and during the Vietnam War Cardinal Spellman said that America was fighting for Jesus against the godless Vietcong when the former bombed and dropped napalm and Agent Orange on helpless populations, killing off millions of Vietnamese peasants in the process. Not too long ago, a well-known TV evangelist even called for the assassination of Hugo Chavez. So it isn't just some Muslims who'd called for "jihad or holywar, killing or assassination on individuals by another person".

As for Hinduism, war can be very real, especially when arguments about it are taken to extreme - and hence abstract - lengths. In the Bhagavad Gita, Arjuna was troubled by all the killings, but was consoled by Krishna who told him not to overestimate himself - only he, Krishna (or God) could take lives. Arjuna, therefore, was to do his human duty and fight without worrying about the killing, etc. Quite a lot of Western commentators, with some justification, considered this passage a license for mass slaughter.

To sum up, it's rare for the religion we practise today to parallel the actual teachings of prophets or teachers. Further, too much have been added and subtracted from the actual scriptures, whether in the selections, translations or interpretations, to be fully reliable. Much depends, therefore, on our own knowledge and ingenuity. That's why every crook could claim to be religous, and every mass murderer a national hero or saint. Even the notorious gangster, Al Capone, could say that all he'd ever wanted in life was to help people.

LChuah
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written by 98PercentPrimate, April 30, 2008 09:00:06
Re: Renoir's post
Christianity had been defanged by the new OT. War in Hinduism is only metaphorical.
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New OT should be "new NT", could not edit earlier.

I agree that Christians still refer to the OT where relevant.
In the past when Christians were aggressive against non-believers and engaged in wars, they would had been more focused and influenced by the OT.
After the abolishment of the Christian states and with the present focus on the compassionate verses of the new NT, i.e. love your enemies, left & right cheeks, the golden rule, etc., it is unlikely the Christians will go to war or be violent. In that sense, Christianity is defanged.


As for the Gita, I agree that some of the verses in the early chapters could narrowly be used to reinforce professionalism for soldiers or executioners in gas chambers. That was never the intent of the Gita.

The lower emotional mind tend to dominate human behavior and that is dilemma of a normal human mind. Thus there was a need for a separation. ‘Killing’ your own relatives in war is an analogy of killing and modulating the passions of the lower brain. The Gita is not just preaching but provide instructions and practices on how to develop and activate one’s higher mind.

The ancient Hindu sages used the war scenario in the Gita to represent the set up of the human brain and mind as they were ignorant of neuroscience then. It is just unfortunate that they use war as a background to convey such important wisdom.

One cannot limit one’s thinking to the initial chapters of the Gita. One has to cover at least 6 chapters and the whole book to be a progressive human with greater empathy, conscience, and spirituality.. Note the later development in the Gita,
The best yogi is one who regards every being like oneself and who can feel the pain and pleasures of others as one’s own, O Arjuna. (6.32)
http://www.gita-society.com/section2/bhagavad-gita.htm#5
If the end result is to promote the highest degree of empathy and conscience, then the initial stages cannot be promoting killing of human beings especially relatives. Btw, I am not into Hinduism.
If the focus is war, then it would probably be along the line of Sun Tzu's Art of War and war strategies.
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written by renoir, April 30, 2008 11:43:57
98percentprimate wrote:
>After the abolishment of the Christian states]]

Not sure what you mean by that: other than small-scale experiments such as the Calvinist experiment at Geneva and the Puritans at Massachusetts, there were no Christian theocracies besides the Vatican-based Catholic Church. The relatively newer Anglican Church could be seen as a compromise between Protestants and Catholics - it was set up largely as a compromise between the two groups, though its genesis had more to do with the restlessness of Henry V111's crotch.

>love your enemies, left & right cheeks, the golden rule, etc., it is unlikely the Christians will go to war or be violent. In that sense, Christianity is defanged.]]

Christians have gone to 2 world wars in the 20th century alone, and hundreds of smaller wars besides. Earlier, there was the Age of Imperialism, when Christians exterminated the heathens on several continents in the name of the Lord. There were, of course, small groups of Christians who'd been anti-war for centuries. A good example was the Quakers - even Nixon, after Operation Rolling Thunder, was moved to sign the SALT treaty with Russia and made a trip to Beijing.

>As for the Gita .... That was never the intent of the Gita.]]

Be careful not to presume about knowing the intentions of the Gita, despite the websites you mentioned. As I said, the acts of translation, interpretation, and selection of facts often put readers many times removed from the original scriptures. St. Jerome understood this when he worked on the Vulgate (which inspired Foucault's idea of the "death" of the author).

>The lower emotional mind tend to dominate human behavior and that is dilemma of a normal human mind]]

I guess you mean the limbic zone. Actually that could be overcome by the more developed neo-cortex, as alluded to by Freud and even earlier by Socrates.

The Gita is a great book - read it during the sixties - but like all such books their meanings are often given present-day flavors. That's another problem with reading scriptures and most other ancient literary texts, even Sun Tzu's Art of War.

Have a nice day,

LChuah
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written by renoir, April 30, 2008 11:47:29
I wrote:
>The relatively newer Anglican Church could be seen as a compromise between Protestants and Catholics - it was set up largely as a compromise between the two groups, though its genesis had more to do with the restlessness of Henry V111's crotch.]]

Didn't delete some words. Should be:
"The relatively newer Anglican Church could be seen as a compromise between Protestants and Catholics - though its genesis had more to do with the restlessness of Henry V111's crotch."

And of course England wasn't and isn't a theocracy.

LChuah
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written by 98PercentPrimate, April 30, 2008 13:23:59
I guess you mean the limbic zone. Actually that could be overcome by the more developed neo-cortex, as alluded to by Freud and even earlier by Socrates.
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Yes overcome.
This is precisely the purpose of the Gita, i.e. to inhibit and modulate the impules from the limbic and brain stem by actual physical rewirings of neural connections in the brain for optimal spirituality.
The Gita is only effective with support from other systems of Hinduism.
In contrast to merely believing, these higher practices of hinduism introduces specific practices that promote the appropriate neural rewirings.

The other philosophies of Buddhism, Taoism and other mysticisms are striving towards the same goals.

Other than the mystics of Sufism and Christianity, the prevalent practices of the Abrahamic religions merely tickle the spiritual circuits of the higher brain.
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