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Babi... Ooooi Babi PDF Print
Monday, 14 April 2008 23:22

From an economic perspective it is better to rear pigs than cows or goat. It is simply more profitable. The pregnancy duration is about 112-115 days compared to goat which is about 150 days or a cow 290 days. At the end of each pregnancy the pig produces between 12- 15 piglets, the goat about 1-2 kids and the cow 1 calf.

I have been following the story of the construction of a centralized and modern pig farm in Kampung Tumbuk in Kuala Langat and how the issue of religious sensitivity and racial cards has been played by the Opposition (i.e. The BN people) in Selangor. The issue also appears to have been made worst by the lopsided reporting by the Malay newspaper which obviously is trying to incite racial sentiments. Please allow me to share my views as a Muslim on the matter.


The religion perspective of pork.

From the bible

Both the Bible and the Quran prohibit the eating of pork. Muslims are aware of this prohibition and observe it strictly. However, most readers of the Bible say they do not know where they can find this in the Bible.

In the book of Leviticus, chapter 11, v. 7, it is recorded that God declares the pig to be unclean for believers. Then, in verse 8, God says: “You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you”. This command is repeated in Deuteronomy 14:7-8. Then, in Isaiah 65:2-4, and 66:17, God issues a stern warning against those who eat pork.

Some Christians are aware of this prohibition from God, but they say that they can eat pork because St. Paul said that all food is clean in his letter to the Romans 14:20. St. Paul said this because he believed (as he wrote in his letter to the Ephesians 2:14-15) that Jesus had abolished the Law with all its commandments and regulations. He seems, however, to have misunderstood what he heard about Jesus.

In the Gospel According to Matthew 5:17-20, Jesus is reported to have said quite the contrary, as follows: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law . . . .” Jesus then went on in that passage (in verse 19) to denounce anyone who would break the smallest commandment and teach others likewise. He also praised his true followers who will practice and teach even the smallest commandment. One of the commandments, as we have seen, is to stay away from pork.

This is why the true followers of Jesus, holding on to his teachings, did not let unclean food such as pork enter their mouths, so that Peter, the chief disciple, can say, “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean” (Acts of the Apostles, ch. 10, v. 14)

Five chapters later in the Acts of the Apostles, 15:29, we find that the original disciples still differentiate between clean and unclean foods, and this time Paul is in agreement with them. Six chapters later, in ch. 21, v. 25, their decision to impose food regulations on believers is mentioned without regret, and this time Paul is challenged to prove that he is in agreement with them; and he demonstrated his full agreement with them.

What remains, then, is that Jesus, on whom be peace, upheld the prohibition against pork. His disciples also upheld it, and so must all his followers. Those who fail to uphold it need to be informed and reminded of this rule from God. For the same argument many orthodox Jews don’t eat pork.

Islamic perspective

In Islam, the eating of swine is forbidden. This is clearly demonstrated in many verses of the Quran. Among others this includes: [1] 5:3, 6:145, 16:114-115; [2] 2:168-169, 3:93-94, 6:119, 10:59; [3] 5:90-91. My research has failed to find any evidence that suggest that the religion do not allow muslims to be standing next to or to look at or to smell a pig. Maybe some people in authority can highlight further on this issue.


The Scientific perspective

Dr. E. Kazim. M.D. in his article “Medical aspects of forbidden foods in Islam” (July 1981 issue of Muslim Journal has described diseases carried or caused by the flesh of the swine.

He wrote: The pig is a scavenger. It is an omnivorous animal. It eats everything. There are many diseases carried from swine to man, particularly parasite infestations. Lately extensive research has been focused on senility-old age is characterized by hardening of inner lining of the blood vessels of the heart; brain etc. a process called atherosclerosis. When a clot forms, it results in coronary thrombosis or a heart attack, cerebral thrombosis or stroke.

Different dietary factors are responsible for atherosclerosis. Gross atheroma may be produced in rabbit by feeding it with cholesterol, but when you add lard (derived from hog fat) to the cholesterol, the incidence of atheroma is increased and thus you would produce coronary thrombosis, and myocardial infraction.

Besides, lard contains 2800 units of vitamin D per 100 grams and no vitamin A at all. Lately vitamin D has been held responsible for atheroma, by causing increased absorption of calcium in the blood vessels. In human beings, serum cholesterol is not dependent on the intake of cholesterol in the diet, but depends upon the proportion of animal fats in the diet, which elevates the beta-lipo protein level in the blood. Animal fats contain saturated fatty acids and these saturated fatty acids have been found to be as one of the causes of atheroma in man.

Medium fat bacon contains 25% proteins and 55% fat.

According to medical research, the fat content in pork is more than any other meat (beef, mutton etc.) and it takes longer to digest. Dr. M Jaffer in an article in the Islamic Review (London) of January 1997 issue has listed 16 kinds of harmful germs, which have been discovered in pork in modern researches and the diseases, which could be caused by them. The number of patients suffering from tapeworm disease is the highest in the world among pork eating nations.

Other diseases attributed to pigs are caused by tri-chinelia spirates and intestinal worms occupy first place among such nations too.

Dr. Glen Shepherd wrote the following on the dangers of eating pork in Washington Post (31 May 1952). “One in six people in USA and Canada have germs in their muscles - trichinosis 8 from eating pork infected with trichina worms. Many people who are infected shows no symptoms. Most of those, who do have, recover slowly. Some die; some are reduced to permanent invalids. All were careless pork caters”.

He continued “No one is immune from the disease and there is no cure. Neither antibiotics nor drugs or vaccines affect these tiny deadly worms. Preventing infection is the real answer.”

The Babi and the narrow minded politicians who called themselves Muslims.

First of all, I am appalled at the narrow minded politicians who made the issue of building a centralized and modern pig farming an issue. It is beyond doubt that the real issue here is economy, environmental pollution and improving quality of life in the surrounding community.

The opposition (BN) are making a mockery of this just because of political mileage. I feel when something good is being done; it should promoted by all parties. I have travelled to St Louis , USA where it is also known capital pork of the world. I have visited and stand 3 feet away from a pig pen. There was no smell. It was so dam clean. It is even cleaner than public toilets in Malaysia .

How many of this politician has visited such a farm and how many are involved in goat farming in Malaysia . While goat is Halal in Malaysia , please enter many farms there is in Malaysia and you will see how dirty it is. Islam only prohibits the eating of pork. There is no prohibition of looking at eat or standing next to one. In fact I have yet to find anywhere in the Quran that prevent Muslims from rearing it. During my 15 months tour of duty with UN in Cambodia, many Malay Champa who are strong Muslims rear pigs under their house for economic reason even though they don’t eat them.

From an economic perspective it is better to rear pigs than cows or goat. It is simply more profitable. The pregnancy duration is about 112-115 days compared to goat which is about 150 days or a cow 290 days. At the end of each pregnancy the pig produces between 12- 15 piglets, the goat about 1-2 kids and the cow 1 calf.

From an environmental perspective, it is definitely better to have a central farm where small farmers join hands and run one big and clean farm. This way the cleanliness of our water way will be maintained. Waste management will become the epicentre of the operation. It is more economical to run one big farm than many small farms that is polluting. Overall it is a win win situation for everyone.

It is insulting the way some politician look at the issue. I believe from Islamic  perspective it is quite clear. It is the narrow minded politicians that played up the issue that makes it into a Muslim and non Muslim issue and trying to create a bigger racial divide among Malaysians. Sometimes I wonder, which has  the lower image , the babi or these politicians. For that aspect, I respect the position taken by PAS on this matter. It has shown that it has handled the issues properly.

I ask all level minded Malaysian and to re look at the “Babi” issue again. Study the real issue properly and make a proper judgment. Overall it will benefit Malaysian from the economic, environmental and quality of life perspective.

 

Dr Mohamed Rafick Khan bin Abdul Rahman

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written by Countach, April 14, 2008 23:27:29
St Louis, Usa, pork capital of the world.

Malaysia, corruption capital of the world. International Iso 2020 standard. Way ahead of its time, Tallest, longgest, biggest, fattest, whatever.

Courtesy of Mahathir, the Father of Corruption.
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written by singam, April 14, 2008 23:36:22
The ultimate idiocy may well have taken place in Penang where Sungai Babi got renamed Sungai Bab1. I kid you not!

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written by Jan, April 14, 2008 23:38:00
I don't know if the pork contains so much germs, viruses and parasites but I do know the Germans and the Japanese are lovers of pork meat and are among the longest living people in the world.
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written by RumahPanjai, April 14, 2008 23:38:09
A very well reasoned and written piece. You nip it right on the bud. We need to diseminate this to the local folks to think outside the square that is perpetuated by UMNO. Why is it that when it comes to the innocent "BABI" politicians would jump on the bandwagon and bring up religion? Political miliage?
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written by cklife, April 14, 2008 23:49:45
Everything you do, there's a risk involve.

To me, if GOD really don't want us to eat pork.
THEN WHY HE CREATE IT?

Come on guys, nothing's safe. Not even chicken, beef, deer, mushrooms and other veges. There are risk involved in anything you consume.

So, eat well, not too much of chicken, not too much of pork,
not too much of Coke, not too much of alcohol.
Keep in balance.

Why not discuss the nutrition of pork?
It's one sided.
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written by pillars, April 14, 2008 23:52:49
My respect to you Sir for writing this eye opening article.

My opinion I think beside religion perspective on pork, these days we have to be careful on almost everything we consume. Hello ... dun forget mad cow disease, bird flu, and high level pesticides on fruits n veggies. Do you all notice most of fruit skins now are shinier and waxy (especially apples).

It is said that people only concentrate on pork.

Besides the scientific perspective of pork, junk food also dangerous for health. But then again pork is a hotter subject compare with junk food. Sad case.





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written by Uncorruptible, April 14, 2008 23:56:09
What the "researchers" don't tell you is that our nenek-moyang, ancestors, survived mainly on eating pork because pigs were plentiful everywhere. Like God send manna. If pork was so "unclean", our ancestors would have died out longer ago, and we would not be here today ! Are beef and mutton better? What about the hoof and mouth diseases that frequently strikes these animals? What about the Mad cow disease that is so lethal ? Now with the bird flu, chickens are no better? Pork at least haave never passed any such dangerous diseases to man, unlike the other animals. So actually pork is safer to consume than beef or mutton or chicken !!! smilies/cheesy.gif Hey man, be realistic. There are germs everywhere, just cook them meat well and you'll be all right. Historically, it has been PROVEN that consuming pork is okay !
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written by Krazee, April 15, 2008 00:00:36
Sigh, and argument to support specific reasons.
From the acts of the Apostles Chap 11. ‘What God has made clean, you are not to call profane.’
My friends, "what goes into the mouth is not unclean but what comes out of it is"
My understanding is that pork was prohibited due to the outbreak of swine fever that causes it to be passed to those who take them.
If you cannot take Pork for whatever reason, so be it and nobody is going to force you to do so. Just because you cannot do so does not mean that others should not and please, there's no need to justify with studies because Pork have been consumed for centuries and is proven not to be any worse than other meat.
It is precisely this holier than thou attitude of trying to prevent others that led to the collapse of a 4 Billion ringgit business.
In fact, there is no substitution for Pork...unlike other meats char siew and roasted pork is good only with pork... substitude with daging merah or chicken does not even come close....slurrrrrrp..
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written by oster, April 15, 2008 00:02:17
There are varying Christian interpretations on when the eating of previously forbidden meats were sanctioned, and I think it's a bit arbitrary for the author to come to absolute conclusions.

Many Christians would cite Matthew 15:10, "Listen and understand. What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.'" as changing the perception of previous laws and taking the old definition of foodstuff making one unclean a change in dietary laws as well. Do note that Jesus broke many laws from the Old Testament as well (the Sabbath restrictions included) and is interpreted, in talking about a new covenant and rebuilding the destroyed temple, as altering or rendering null many previous laws.

You make a very level-headed argument about the issue, it must be said. Indeed, the focus should not be on what animals are being bred, but how they are being bred.

In the US and Europe, there are pig barns where people entering must sterilise themselves for fear of actually infecting the pigs (yes, in terms of microbes, these pigs are actually cleaner). This arises due to the fact that rearing techniques can actually keep pigs very far from harmful microorganisms, at the cost of the pig's freedom.

Therefore, people DO have the right to complain about the pig project, but ONLY if they find faults in its implementation, not because of its existence alone.

cheers
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written by noyawns, April 15, 2008 00:05:33
Oink, Oink - Writer here is basically showing that pib farming done properly should not be made into an issue. All who wanna eat pork, go ahead - why club this writer? Wanna eat what also go ahead la...Constitution allows it smilies/wink.gif smilies/grin.gif

Thanks for clearing the Stink on this issue, Doc. I shall forever love my bacon! smilies/cheesy.gif smilies/tongue.gif
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written by Negarakuku, April 15, 2008 00:16:54
I urged Muslims not to eat pork because the price will go up when the demand is higher. smilies/grin.gif smilies/cheesy.gif smilies/wink.gif smilies/smiley.gif
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written by Areka, April 15, 2008 00:18:13
Hi, Dr Rafick,

Firstly, allow me and accept my sincere apologies for my previous comments on your previous articles. I have read your blogs and I respect your opinions (although not all I agreed with your opinions and comments).

You have written this article well and I agree with you that we have many narrow-minded politicians who played up this "Babi" issue.

Whether to consume pork, I am of opinion that it is up to each individual and let us all respect their rights.

There are many types of animals which cannot be eaten, be they in religious or health perspective, but there are still people who consume them. We have no right to stop them (from consuming), just respect their right.

To consume the meat of an animal and to rear it are different matters. You are right and I agree with you fully that it is a good move of the Selangor Government to build a centralized modern pig farm.

To those " NARROWED MINDED POLITICIANS " , allow me to ask all of you, " WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM TO THIS CENTRALIZED MODERN PIG FARM ? "
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written by k loon, April 15, 2008 00:33:06
Thank to the writer

It's a proven fact that pig carry lot's of disease that possible to infect human. It's also a proven fact that pig helped a lot in medical science due to it's similarity to human organ and muscle texture (do you know that b4 crash dummy was created, pig and human corpse are used for car crash and other experiment?)

It's also a proven fact that non-muslim around the world love pork.

Back to Malaysia, it's true pig farming its a issue here. Even the name "babi" have to call "khinzir" and in public seminar/talk, words/examples regarding "babi" are seldom used if there's muslim around.

I have to agree to our fellow muslim, the standard pig farming in Malaysia really bad. Very bad. Even I won't stay near a pig farm, so cant I blame the muslim for banning pig farming in the own backyard?

Tolerance is what keep us Malaysia so unique and this words are long gone (misused) under the opposition(BN) govern. Remember the Melaka pig farm that was closed down by the "MB" for no apparent reason (well, the MB said the farm was closed for new development but nothing was done after the farm closed).

You can't just shutdown a family long time business just to make certain group happy. You need to find a solution, and this is what the government are trying to do (PK).

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written by marcusg, April 15, 2008 00:35:27
Excellent article, especially regarding Christianity and the unclean pork (must dig up my dusty bible to check back those verses!)

Unfortunately, the THREAT of the parasite Trichinella spiralis is grossly exaggerated in your article, which quotes a 1952 (more than 5 decade!) source which says "no cure". Untrue.

Trichenellosis can be treated with combination of steroids and any modern-day anti-parasitic medication, e.g. albendazole (you can buy this at Guardian's or Watson, otherwise know as Zentel. Primary school children in Malaysia are routinely given this for hookworm infestation)

CDC article regarding this 'pig worm':
http://www.dpd.cdc.gov/dpdx/HTML/Trichinosis.htm

This parasite is much commonly found in Europe and USA, where it is transmitted by eating improperly cooked meat (usually game like bear, dear, or any other carnivore or omnivore, not just piggies alone) Besides, i have not come across any malaysian eating RAW pork, except maybe at Korean BBQs
smilies/tongue.gif

However, you don't need a medical degree to tell you the link between animal fat and heart disease, haha.. thats just common sense.
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written by ismhakim, April 15, 2008 00:39:16
Dr Mohamed Rafick Khan

What you said about the economics of pig rearing vs goat or cow rearing is absolutely correct. In fact many UN agencies involved in poverty alleviation work in developing countries (subject to religious constraints) recommend pig rearing as a quick source of income in the rural areas - the advantage of integrated farming system, with the recycling or farm and animal wastes and pig manure for production of methane gas for energy andelectrification supply in rural households. Those who do not know this should read the World Bank, Asian Dev Bank, UNDP reports on the economic advantage of the pig production industry.

The problem on pigs in Malaysia is the over strict application of Islam by the religious fundamentalists so much so that the pig is seen as worse than the devil (Syaitan), with the next evil or the " untouchable" animal is the man's best friend, the dog.

It takes a huge leap of liberalisation of the mind of the Malay muslims (including the most educated) to come to terms with issues of the pig and the dog in the context of Islam. I find that the devout muslims in the middle east,eg egypt, and when come face to face with the pig or pork.

I have a different view than yours on the issue of pork and the bible.

What you have quoted is from the Old Testament. That's Jewish history and Jews don't it pork. And the arab nation is a semitic nation, coming from as biblical history says, through the first son of Abraham. Many of the culinary restrictions of Islam came through Judaism.

As for Jesus, he is Jewish rabbi, and he did not eat of course. But Jesus is NOT a Christian.

Modern day Christianity comes from Paul ie Pauline Christianity and based on the edict of Paul that the coming of Jesus replaces the Mosaic Law and the the salvation promised to the descendants of Abraham can also be obtained by the gentiles if only they believed in Jesus as the Christ.

You are right in the New Testament that Jesus did say he came not to abolish the law. But Paul who had his road to Damascus experience said otherwise and it was his word that carried.

Anyway, biblical scholars have concluded that the New Testament, ie stories about Jesus were first written down only some 50 years after the Jesus was alive on earth (as the Christians would say) and the fourth gospel came into being some 100-150 years later.

So I think quoting the old testament and quotes from Jesus are abit out of context for Malaysians, because the non muslims ( besides the hindus and buddhists ect) are Christians, not Jews. They follow the interpretation of Paul. A point to note is that modern day Jews are still pretty mad with Paul because they blame Paul for taking Christianity totally out of its Jewish roots. If not for Paul, and the fact that the Jerusalem church lost the battle with the Church in Rome, Christianity would have been a Jewish sect or cult.
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written by apa jadi, April 15, 2008 00:39:32
Since there are so much of "scientific research from Islamic perspective", how about mad cow disease from religious point of view? Anyone? (I was in UK in the 80s. Till today, I am barred from donating blood, despite avoiding beef on most know occasions.)

The question now is: is there any animal that is disease free that we can consume safely? Is there any animal that has all the vitamins safe for humans? A balanced diet from just one source of food?

So, all craps on this kind of argument will go on and on from a lopsided "perspective".


Babi....oink..babi, who are the kepala babi who created all these farce? Can't the they leave the real babi alone?

So, come Dr. Mohamed Rafick's jingle that is so refreshing in the midst of rumbles.

Sometimes I wonder, which has the lower image , the babi or these zealot politicians??? Well said DR Rafick smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif
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written by Negarakuku, April 15, 2008 00:49:28
Do you know that BABI is the holiest animal on earth. WHY?

Only the parts from BABI can be used as substitute to human body parts. In future, Scientist can even plant human organs to function properly first, as a test pilot, in the BABI body before using it on human. That is why BABI is the holiest of all animal in the world !!! smilies/kiss.gif
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written by mykantree, April 15, 2008 00:52:38
Scientifically speaking, all animals carry disease, some inherent, some acquired.So consuming any animal meat entails its share of health risk. That's why you cook them before eating them.So the reason that human should not consume pork because of possible sickness is rather ancient. That aside.

Dr Md Rafick raised many valid points why all of us should support the setting up of modern pig farms.Let's not be misled as to the true objectives of those who oppose the Selangor state goverment's inherited plan to set up one in Kg. Tumbuk.
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written by jokerman, April 15, 2008 01:36:27
On the part regarding Religious perspective of Pork - From the Bible and the Islamic perspective: It is a very sensitive issue and will often provoke the defensive nature of some people. However it is something new for me when you mentioned that the Bible actually prohibits the consumption of pork.

On the part regarding scientific and economic perspective of pork - Yes, it is more economically viable to rear pigs compared to cows or goats due to their almost universal diet and production rate. However, their diet is also their almost universal diet is also their achilie's heel, therefore modern farms should look into scientific formulation of the pig's diets to reduce the risks of diseases.

On the part regarding the Babi and the narrow minded politicians who called themselves Muslims - Again, it indirectly involves Islam and therefore as a non Muslim, not really my league to comment!

However in my opinion, things will get blown out of proportion when one politicizes some agenda in the name of religion. Religions are meant for the well being of the heart and soul. So should one choose to politicize it, one would need to find ways to link the political agenda one is trying to sell with the respective religion. If one manages to (politicize) and the idea sells, then fine. However, should the dots don't seem to join and yet one persists, then we would have something like the Project Babi or the Khalwat with non-Muslim issues.

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written by songkram, April 15, 2008 01:51:56
PL.
Masjid, Temple& Kuil being there since 17??,our ancestor live harmony in this Land not even yet call as Malaysia.that's why we have BABA & NYONYA.what a nice mix.But few hundred yrs. later things change.Why??? Chinese use to pray to the MOON (Chap goh Meh)they don't now after APOLLO 13.Saloma & P. Ramli well know well accepted artist even in Hong Kong during the 50s.what happen to our artist now? Don't we watch documentary movie how they search for support evidence of the earliest life form in earth.Yes we believe in god,always teaches good things,but beware to thos god messenger if they did it for god.Or else we might end up like Bosnia
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written by messrs_stieh, April 15, 2008 02:22:24
thanks, doc, for the sharing of knowledge. however, will check out your views on what is actually said in the bible. thanks. cheers!
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written by songkram, April 15, 2008 02:34:53
fellow Malaysian
After 50 yrs.Malaysians seem to get more & more holy,until forget about country
agenda, wawasan 2020.All fighting to be a Imum, monk....PIG become wawasan smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif ;
GLOBAL ISU economi negara tak sepenting berbanding BABI PORDA!!sampai bilalah anak malysia baru besar,sedar kita dah ketinggalan.KRISIS ECONOMI,KRISIS MAKANAN,IKLIM DUNIA,apalagi nak TOUR BULAN 2nd time.sedangkan sains pun tak faham.KESIAN betul kat nenek moyang kita .Tingalkan kita bumi yang begitu cantik dan kaya.CHINA,INDIA,BANGALOR pun sudah jauh menang kita.Kita masih bincang pasal kaum MALAYU,CINA dan INDIA.
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written by kinistau, April 15, 2008 02:37:11
for many hearing or seeing the word 'BABI' itself is a sin.

'Pulau Besar' was 'Pulau Babi Besar'..
So what's with Pulau Babi Besar... May be someone should take the word Babi from Kamus Dewan, coz it make the dictionary non halal.

May be 'Pulau Khinzir Besar' would do the trick.. after 20 years when people get sensitive with the word Khinzir, then we can revert it back to Pulau Babi Besar... and so on.

Better still, just call it 'Pulau the thing Besar'
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written by apasalahku, April 15, 2008 02:41:41
truth be told, the Nipah virus outbreak has exposed the pig farmers in Malaysia to be extremely unhygienic, polluting the environment, poor pen conditions; thanks to greed of the farmers and the inspectors
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written by Surind Raj, April 15, 2008 03:26:55
Not to mention the benefits of Biogas that comes from a big farm. That's another case study, but basically it is easier to hook up these modern biogas factories employing the latest technology, to one big central farm. Great for the environment! Would you prefer small farms all over the place?

Idiots are not really the msm, the real Idiots are the people whom buy the lies without doing the proper research & examining the evidence.

Dont be so emotional lah Malaysians! Please. You talk about development & growth, it starts with us!
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written by LKO, April 15, 2008 04:00:57
Dr Rafick's argument on the babi's economic status is his own. I believe that he has done research on that I respect his points on that.

However, (sheesh, not another one) his quoting from the Bible is a bit out of his league. The Bible can't be just cherry picked and strung into a Christian dogma. e.g. Acts chapter 10:14 about Peter's statement is wholly out of context. May I quote verses 11 to 16, which covers verse 14, and you can see that God is tell Peter not to make judgement on what God has made clean.

"11He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."
14"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean."

15The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."

16This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven."

In fact, some uses these verses to argue that God allows Christian to eat those animals and not the way Dr Rafick explains it! Anyway, the main context of the verses was the 1st breakthrough when Peter was asked by God to preach to the non-Jews which was considered as unclean by the Jews. The early Christian, being brought up in the Jewish traditions considered the Gentiles/non-Jews unclean. The proof is in Acts 11, when Peter explained to the Christian council on his actions:
"18When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.""

Additionally, in Acts 15:29, Dr Rafick is not quoting properly. Paul has be consistent in his teachings. There is no mention of pork specifically but of how the meat is treated.

"28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things."

Again, in Acts 21:25, the verse quoted by Dr Rafick, Paul is saying the same thing:
"25As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality"

Even originally halal or kosher food, if already offered to idols, Christians are asked to avoid this. Not so much of the intake, nutritional or spiritual value, but more so to avoid non-Christians of viewing that Christian partake of offerings to idols and thus sharing other gods.

In Christianity, it is not about geting merit or demerit points. It is your personal relationship with God.
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written by chilten, April 15, 2008 04:07:14
I'm a Malay Muslim and I know it's not a sin to stand next to a pig, smell it and even touch it. You see, in the Quran and hadith, Muslims have never been told that they are forbidden from touching a pig. The only thing that Quran and hadith tell is about the prohibition of eating swine, that's it. So in Islam's perspective, pigs are just like snake . Muslims can take a picture with a snake, touch it, have it as pets but they are forbidden from eating it. So does for pig.

There is a hadith about Muhammad's command to his followers to wash a water container seven times, including once with water soil if it has been licked by a dog. Thus, Muslims believe that dog's saliva are dirty but having dogs as pets, feeding dogs and touching them are not forbidden so it's not a sin to do it.

However, years after prophet Muhammad's death, there comes Imam Shafie who were well respected by Muslims. He used the logic that if Islam says dog's saliva is dirty, pigs must be dirtier. Thus, his followers believe that if they touch a pig, they have to wash their hands 7 times, including one with water soil (even Muhammad never tell them to do so). The weird thing is the 'logic' applies only on pigs, not on a lot of other things that are dirtier than dog's saliva like cat poo, human urine etc.

Now it been more than 1375 years since Muhammad's death and 1187 years since Imam Shafie's death. Muslims in Malaysia have their own rules about pigs and dogs despite what has been taught to them by Muhammad and Imam Shafie. They said Muslims can't eat pork, can't touch pigs, can't stand next to them, can't take a picture with them, can't let pork share the same fridge with their halal food, can't let pig farms being developed and can't let non-Muslims eat their meat. Pigs are like 'cursed animals' that anybody around them will also be cursed and thrown to hell. The same 'unwritten rules' are also applied on dogs.

Well I just feel that it's kinda funny that Malay Muslim have gone too far from the actual teaching. The more serious crime and sins like corruption, lies and riba are usually ignored but the 'false rule' about pigs and dogs are taken too seriously like the entire Islam will be a history if a single Muslim touch a dog/pig or a single Muslim let the non-Muslims develop a pig farm.
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written by hafidzmalik, April 15, 2008 04:23:51
Cows are usually knocked unconscious by applying an electric shock of 300 volts and 2 amps to the back of the head, effectively stunning the animal. If unsuccessful, secondary methods include the use of a captive bolt pistol to the front of the cows's head. Livestock are also rendered unconscious by pneumatic or cartridge-fired captive bolt stunning and CO2/inert gas stunning. (This step is prohibited under strict application of Halal and Kashrut codes.)Although some animals, mainly pigs and chickens, have their throats slit while fully conscious to be bled to death. [Slaughterhouse]

Some believe electric shock is what cause Mad Cow disease. That's why, we don't get this kind of Mad Cow disease in Malaysia.
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written by mypanida, April 15, 2008 04:26:50
HOIK.......babi tak mau....tapi char siu tarok lebih.

smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif
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written by smalluncle, April 15, 2008 05:00:12
Aiyoh, veli confuse la on these many PERSPECTIVEs.

How come, under UMNO's PERSPECTIVE, they hated Babi farming. They should sokong and encourage the pendatang to eat more pork, lard filled char kuay teow, char siew rice so all will be erased by JE. Then they can have a 99% UMNO country. (1% of Pendatang also don't eat Babi)
However, However, whats left are a population that walks around with serious flu infection that crow every now and then, some have their foot in their mouth, many mad ones moooing in the street and even on TV during News broadcast......

YES, Dr Rafick, I agreed that with the new integrated farming (with stringent enforcement), the farm will be cLEANER than our public toilet. BUt current Pig farms are just tooo repelling to visit. SAD.
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written by Daryl, April 15, 2008 06:18:30
Bring up all the medical backup you want. I will still enjoy my BBQ pork ribs anytime I want and my beef rib eye steak medium well with a little bit of pink in the center.
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written by mei yen, April 15, 2008 06:46:05
Folks, in case you did'nt know.....

Pig fat is used in weed killers, chalk, cosmetics, floor wax and crayons. Pigs are a source of insulin and about 40 other medicines are made from pigs. Pigskin is used in treating massive burns and injuries. Heart valves from pigs are surgically implanted in humans to replace human heart valves that are weakened due to disease or injury. Heparin, a blood thinner that prevents the formation of blood clots in veins, arteries or lung, is made from pig intestines. Excuse me, if I am creating some heart attacks right now!!
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written by mikewang, April 15, 2008 07:17:17
It is a misunderstanding of the scriptures (yes, old testament scriptures) that many interpret that the followers of the Bible should not eat pork.

The covenant between God and the descendants of Jacob (ie. the Jewish tribe) and the covenant between God and the descendants of Noah (ie. everyone else since all mankind are supposed to be perished after the big flood) are different.

In Genesis 9:3, God told Noah "Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything."

As for God's covenant with the descendants of Jacob, go read what God told Moses .
In Exodus 19:3~5 "This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel....If you obey and keep my covenant..."
The covenant described in later pages of the Bible included what the Israelites should and should not consume.

To demand that Christians (other than Jews who are descendants of Jacob) not consume pork is against the word of God, even in the Old Testament.
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written by mei yen, April 15, 2008 07:25:38
Continuing....

Pigs do play an important role in many people's lives, they are not only good for food and also help to make a lot of people live longer. Mmmmhh! I wonder if Dr.MM ...??? smilies/shocked.gif smilies/shocked.gif
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written by Surind Raj, April 15, 2008 07:31:27
Watch this! Especially, Moderate & Liberal Muslims!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwOCUuILJIg
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written by Tompios, April 15, 2008 07:35:02

smilies/grin.gif did you know that Malaysia is also client of medical medication based on pig from China? Hehe! I think Mahathir got anesthesia based on pig during his heart surgery. It is far cheaper to buy pig medical form than any halal animal like cow's insulin.

Yes, I never ever blame people to eat his/her food based on pig/pork. It is not right to condemn people who are eating pig. Mereka punya makanan bah! So, what! I will go against those people who are only thinking about pig as unclean but do not think uncleaness decisions and behaviours among religious especially among public figure people who are acting like angels to condemn swine on this earth.
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written by dkkl, April 15, 2008 08:07:05
well, since, the goat and cow only produced 1 or 2 kids, so if every one just eat beef and mutton, I think one day WWF will categorized this animals as extinction and be protected. So what will happen next? Change flavor? Become vegetarian or pork eater?

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written by dkkl, April 15, 2008 08:08:12
I just wonder what will happen if this world is ONLY consists of pigs, will all the muslim become vegetarian or close one eye and go for it?
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written by ismhakim, April 15, 2008 08:25:41
jokerman,

You said, "However it is something new for me when you mentioned that the Bible actually prohibits the consumption of pork."

I am surprised that you are surprised.

You see, the Alquran and the Bible (both the Old and New testament) are later derivatives of the Jewish Torah (5 Books of Moses). If you study the history fo the development of Islam and Christianity, scholars take the view that Islam was developed to correct the mistreatment of the descendants of Abraham (Nabi Ibrahim)'s first son, Ishmael or Nabi Ismail,conceived with Hagar, the writers of the Torah who claimed the covenant with Abraham's God was with Abraham's second son, Isaac conceived with Sarah. The conflict now in the Middle East between Arabs and Jews had its genesis from this so-called biblical history. Ishmael became the father of the Arab nation and throuh Jacob, became the father of the Jewish nation... both had the same ancestor, Abraham, who came from Ur and in modern terms, was an Iraqi (just think what George Bush did to the homeland of the foremost ancestor of the Jews and Arab Muslims, and later claimed by non-Semitic Christians and Muslims as their ancestor too).

So what you read in Al-Quran and the Bible have semitic roots and those religious laws derived from Judaic laws and semitic customs eg the habit of the catholic nuns and the tudung. The fountainhead of Islam and Christianity is Judaism, and that is the truth, whether one finds it hard to accept or not.

So for Muslims to be upset and Jews and Christians, even to the point of killing each other is really weird, they are religious siblings, for want of a better word. Anyway, Jews, Muslims and Christians had been fighting each other for milleniums in the name of the same God they pray to.

(to continue on the issue of pig and pork later)
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written by ismhakim, April 15, 2008 08:26:20
jokerman

(to continue where I had left from earlier posting)

Now coming back to pork and pig, the Jews don't eat pork. And Jesus, Peter and all those apostles were Jews. They didn't eat pork for sure, being followers of Judaism. Christianity as we know today was in fact Judaism with a different interpretation made by Jesus. And later Paul expanded that interpretation to bring in the gentiles to share the "kingdom of God" with the Jews who had followed Jesus's teachings. Non-Jews in those days eat pork, like the Romans. As far as Paul was concerned, the culinary restrictions are Jewish and since Jesus had taken his followers on another spiritual path to God, Paul basically said, salvation does not need to become from Mosaic law. That made it easier for gentiles ( read Chinese in Malaysia) to share Jesus's "kingdom of God" withouth worrying about not eating pork and the kosher laws of the Jews and the strict rules of the sabbath. Some Christian sects are more Jewish in outlook than others.

As for the Muslims, the Islamic tradition came straight from Saudi Arabia. Thus we (read Malaysian Muslims) tend to even become neo-Arabs in the following the Islamic practices instead of being Malays. However, in Islam, the required prayers must be conducted in Arabic, excerpt sermons. Thus we find the constant recital of verses in Arabic in Malaysia. You rarely hear Yiddish or Aramaic or Hebrew quotes from the Bible in the churches. Though latin is used in the catholic church because latin was the laguage of christianity in the middile ages in europe.

Just like some Christians in churches in the Klang valley who wished each other on Sundays, "shalom" the Jewish version of Assalummailikum or Salam in Malay. There is that of Malaysian Christians becoming pseudo-Jews on Sundays.

What I want to emphasis is that when religions are taken to extreme, then their relevance in 21st century will fade gradually. All animals are not clean to the homo sapiens if the animals are not treated or handled properly. Bird flu, Mad cow disease. As for dog, well, isn't it man's best friend and protector. Pig's organs are said to be by medical profession to be the closest replacement for human parts?

So we are now confront with the advancement of science and the world view of those who lived in a more primitive environment and circumstances and who ahd prescribed the dos and don'ts still used today, in the name of religion and the belief of divine cleanliness.

The only way for religious harmony in Malaysia is for our young Malaysians to understand the history of the development of their respective religions and other's religions , WHY they are made to believe what they are believing by their adults/parents, their relevance to today's world, and to be more discern on what those preachers at the pulpit pumping their own version of the religon and how they can still be a decent human being without having to be fanatical about the out-dated demands of their respective religions.

You have to read the secular books on the religion to know that, not just the pump-up rituals and the moral demands (some are not even relevant today) of your religion without understanding the historical imperatives of those moral issues. And how the culture of the times impact on the development of Islam and Christianity in the deserts of Palestine and Saudi Arabia. The history of your religion does not come from your pastors, ustaz or preachers. The history is to be learnt from SECULAR historians who have studied them and have NO religious sentiments attached to the religions themselves.

I leave this question for thought: If you don't know the proper history of the development of your religion, how can you be an intelligent believer of your religion and how can you interface with others from another religion?

Think about it.
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written by ismhakim, April 15, 2008 08:52:00
Thanks mei yen, You must be from the medical profession

Worth repeating what you said:

(1) Pig fat is used in weed killers, chalk, cosmetics, floor wax and crayons.

(2)Pigs are a source of insulin and about 40 other medicines are made from pigs.

(3) Pigskin is used in treating massive burns and injuries.

(4) Heart valves from pigs are surgically implanted in humans to replace human heart valves that are weakened due to disease or injury.

(4) Heparin, a blood thinner that prevents the formation of blood clots in veins, arteries or lung, is made from pig intestines.

Excuse me, if I am creating some heart attacks right now!!

My view:

The STRICT interpretation of Islam is this: NO EATING PORK ie pig meat. So what you have suggested should be OK to Muslims.

What you said should be made known to some weird extreme Muslim fanatics, who quote a Quranic verse with every 3-4 sentences they write or speak.
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written by rockli, April 15, 2008 09:13:15
The Bible do not prohibit the eating of pork.
Only the Hebrews were prohibited from eating not only pork but many other animals, considered unclean. Pig is not the only animal prohibited, even seafood is banned except for fish, and scaly and finny creatures.
The apostles in Jerusalem in the New Testament agreed that the non Jews were not subject to Judaic laws.
Hence Christians are free to choose whether to eat pork or not.
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written by miwaki, April 15, 2008 09:26:51
My religion says no man should eat animals as all beings are equal.However if you insist you can't live without meat,you can go ahead after all you are responsible for what you did.Pig is dirty but human's mind are the dirtiest.
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written by oknyua, April 15, 2008 09:27:43
“Sometimes I wonder, which has the lower image , the babi or these politicians.” Dr Rafick,
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Dr Rafick, quoting Leviticus 11, does that make you less a Muslim in anyway?

Another story here; back in 1981 I was in a commercial farm during my student days. Some of the veterinarian students were Muslims. I remember a few girls who regularly remarked; “Cute-nya, cute-nya” when seeing the little piglets. They held the piglets and even performed the castration. No big deal. I liked the piglets but I liked the girls better, I mean in a good way. No religious bigotry. Now I think of it, would they for calling piglets “cute”, be a lesser Muslim than others?

(Note: Good article until you touches Christian's view towards pig/pork. It's wrong).
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written by pillars, April 15, 2008 09:39:32
There is a hadith about Muhammad's command to his followers to wash a water container seven times, including once with water soil if it has been licked by a dog. Thus, Muslims believe that dog's saliva are dirty but having dogs as pets, feeding dogs and touching them are not forbidden so it's not a sin to do it.




Just curious, was there any soap those days ???

My vet is a Moslem, dr Azrie, and he has no problem handling dogs. He even did toothcleaning for dogs, well .. I guess he wear gloves while doing it.

These days we could buy anything in Pet Shops. Toothpaste, toothbrush, toothgel, breathspray, etc. And their saliva is the best medicine for their wounds. By licking the wound is like applying kind of antiseptics.

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written by scottthong, April 15, 2008 09:43:47
Also, Jesus in Matthew 15:11 said: "What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean'."

Remember that Christians are not Jewish people for which the Mosaic laws were meant for, which is why we can marry non-Jews (lol!), not sacrifice live animals every time we sin, and eat prawns.

Btw, Jesus did come to fulfil the law and did fulfil the law through his blood offering for sin. That's why Christians don't need to sacrifice those cows and sheep anymore.
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written by edmean, April 15, 2008 09:47:29
to dkkl on
"I just wonder what will happen if this world is ONLY consists of pigs, will all the muslim become vegetarian or close one eye and go for it?"

Good question. In Islam, as far as I have learnt, that kind of situation would be considered as emergency or 'darurat'. It is maybe the same situation as if a muslim lost in the jungle, out of 'halal' food and all he can find is this so-called forbidden or 'haram' type of food. In this situation, it is not a sin for him to eat anything he could have, as long as he is not making a party out of it, meaning that he is not eating too much other than to survive.

Al-Baqarah:173
"Allah has indeed made unlawful to you carrion, blood and the flesh of swine, and any flesh which is consecrated to something other than Allah.(64) However, whoever (is compelled to eat any of these) because of absolute necessity(65), without wilful disobedience or transgressing due limits (in the amount taken) it is no sin for him. Indeed, Allah is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful."

Well maybe I am not qualified enough to talk about this issue but I did gave what I have and I think world would be so much a better place if all human practice this, "when you do not know or not sure about something, then ask who knows better about it, not who only pretend to know"

Thank you again for asking.
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written by LabRat, April 15, 2008 09:53:07
Correct me if I am wrong, but from what I was told, Muslims are allowed to consume pork during emergency situations eg war, famine, natural disaster etc. And using parts of pig as medicine is also allowed, provided there are no other alternatives. This actually make pigs actually highly beneficial for us.

However, if consuming pork is haram to Muslims, it does not mean that non-Muslims are not allowed to do so, for health or whatever reason. Doing so will be unjustly denying rights and freedom of choice. And it is so true that many other food are equally or even more unhealthy for the population, including the so-called "healthy" fruits and vege due to high presence of toxins from pesticides.

Anyway, there is no prohibition in rearing pig, or for that matter, generating income from selling pig/pork. In terms of income, it is only haram if it is from gambling, selling liquour, riba (one sided form of interest), stealing/robbing (which should include bribery) and some other greater evils (which seem to be encouraged under the present BN regime).

And if it will be beneficial to everyone, then it is ogligatory (Fardhu Kifayah) to ensure that pig farming is being done in a clean controlled manner (like what is to be implemented by Selangor govt presently). And I have to agree that presently, the state of pig farming in Malaysia is unhygienic, and harmful to the population (think Nipah virus outbreak) and also the environment.

And yes, it will not make you less Muslim if you call a pig, "babi" rather than khinzir. But killing pigs for no apparent reason is a sin.
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written by Thinker, April 15, 2008 09:53:08
For the scientific "facts" presented here, I suggest everyone do some research in the Internet and draw your own conclusions.
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written by jolmy, April 15, 2008 09:59:19
First, I'm a Chinese, non-Muslim. Chinese are known to be pork lovers.

But I don't eat pork for various reasons. I just cannot stand the smell & taste, besides I've read about the disadvantages of reading pork from a scientific view long ago, which is also reproduced in this article.

But, I have been labelled as "murtad Cina" because I don't eat pork. This is really bad stereotyping by people. They say all Chinese eat pork and if you dont' eat pork then you are not Chinese.

This is really bad. For me, it is MY RIGHT not to eat pork, and it is THEIR RIGHTS of they want to eat pork. And if their religion says do NOT eat pork, then don't eat!
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written by Flex Tan, April 15, 2008 10:08:33
GOD'S COMANDMENTS ARE ONLY 10 SENTENCES (IN LIST).... AND THE ISSUE OF PORK IS NOT IN IT.

HUMAN MADE LAWS (INITIATED BY THE JEWS) PROHIBITING PORK DOES EXIST IN THE HOLY BOOKS.... FOLLOWED BY THE CHRISTIANS (NOT LITERALLY) AND THE MUSLIMS.

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written by ONGJJJ, April 15, 2008 10:43:14
I was told this story. An Arabic Muslim cleric looking over a pair of shoes was politely informed by the salesman that the shoes were made from pigskin. The cleric without batting an eye merely replied, “It’s alright, I am not going to eat it”. Now, now….why politicize anti-pig farmings, albeit Islam essentially forbids the eating/touching of pig/pork, is less sinister than intoxicating “smoking” or alcoholic “tapai ubi” or 4-D/casino or better still the rampant corruption or bribery or ISA. Well, I can only conclude that some people got nothing better to do, other than to seek cheap publicity. If publicity is what they seek (probably based on instigation from their less than intelligent obsolete political master through the usual $ inducement), I have many much better suggestions. Top on the list would be demonstrate and demand for justice to prevail against Dr Mahathir for destroying the Judiciary in 1988. Grow up people.
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written by cwy, April 15, 2008 11:50:49
Why so sensitive about ‘BABI’?

I used to play with Malay (Muslim) friends when we are teenagers after Merdeka.
We used to call one another ‘baby’ or ‘bodoh’ , and one of my Chinese friend whose name is baby always ‘warned’ not to mention his name during ‘quarrel’. Why the Malaysians today are getting intolerant nowadays?

I have a typical Malay colleage, ( going to retire next year ) a Chemistry graduate from Oxford University. He normally dressed like Tok Guru Nik Aziz after office hours though he is not a PAS or other political member.

One day, this holy and gentle man shared his view about ‘babi’.

He said, “ Being a Muslim, I don’t take pork! Why you all Chinese like to eat pork so much? Don’t you agree it carries germs?”

“ Oh! Just like other food, we Chinese are good cook! We normal cook it to kill all the germs first, and then we cooked and turn it into all kinds of delicacies. We even turn it into ‘lapcheong’, ‘bakhu’ & etc. In fact, pork is much tender and more delicious compared to beef or mutton! Why your religion forbid? ”

“ Wah! You just want to make me curious and to sin! Don’t care how tasty it is, I’ll never eat ! Perhaps Allah forbids us to take pork just to test our ‘kesabaran’. This is a fasting month lah! I know send you to test me! You go ahead and enjoy your pork but I’m following the ‘Koran’!”

Only politicians use Islam for their hidden motives!
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written by kksam, April 15, 2008 12:27:46
Aiseh man, the research done on pork was years ago la, what might be true then might not be true now. Even a short 5 years in medical research have a big gap. Be it any meat or food, cook properly then it will be just fine. Where's my pork chop now.
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written by Mustapha Kamal, April 15, 2008 12:29:29
Labisman, thank you from the bottom of my heart. I truly appreciate your sheer knowledge on a subject I tried to explain to my non-Muslim friends without much conviction. Now I am ready to explain to them the basis of a Muslim's injunction re pork.
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written by Dathab, April 15, 2008 13:30:17
Lets the individual have their rights guys. You eat and you take the risks. As simple as that. My friend is a vegetarian and i dare to have food cook from his kitchen eventhough he is not a Muslim. So let our non-muslim enjoy their dishes. Only things need to look throuhly is the place they want to rear it. Not to close to housing or tourist attraction other then that is ok.
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written by alan cheong, April 15, 2008 14:46:14
Just touching on the Biblical aspect:-

It IS better to state Leviticus 11:3-8 in full, as the chewing of cud and the presence/absence of cloven hoofs were distinguishing factors - the absence of either made the animals unclean.
Similar to laws on eating of fish then - only scaled and finned fish were allowed, unscaled were considered unclean. To wit, eels, catfish, etc, are unclean for us now?

AMEN to Matthew 5, yea, the LORD Jesus came to fulfill the Scriptures, ie that the Son of God is to come in the flesh, born of a woman, crucified and died on a cross, was buried and rose again on the third day, that all who believe in Him and call on His name, may not perish but have everlasting life.

Acts 10 cannot be taken otherwise but must be complete, at least from verses 9-16, for it detailed a vision the LORD gave Peter, and his communication with God. The vision was of a large sheet in the sky, filled with ALL sorts of animals, ie four-footed, wild beasts, creeping things and fowl. Peter was invited to kill and eat, and he replied, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
Act 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
Act 10:16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

Note: Since you made the effort to do such nice research, please do not leave out relevant context. Nor select verses to suit your ... argument/presentation. It is obvious herein, God himself made no discrimination. Contextwise (a double-edged one at that), God was telling Peter that ALL nations, ALL peoples, ALL have THE right to know about Jesus Christ, not one tribe or people is to be left out; ALL must be told. For in the early days, the apostles were instructed to go to the Jews only. Henceforth, God decreed that ALL peoples should be told about Jesus Christ.

Acts 15 dealt with how the apostles handled a Pharisean sect's efforts to undermine the faith of new believers in Antioch, hence they decided NOT to burden the new believers with do's and dont's but simplified it for them via: Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well, Fare ye well.
Therein, the classification/definition of unclean foods, but totally without the implied or express instruction to not consume pork - don't you just love it when people take in the lessons they learnt and progress? Peter did. After his vision.

Acts 21:25 is identical to the above, ie there is NO implied/express instruction to avoid pork. Please do not generalise and cover up or pervert the Scriptures - it is expressly written about food offered to idols, blood, strangled animals and fornication - NOTHING about pork.

As for wot Jesus DID say, see Matthew 15 and Mark 7: Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

And therein lies the truth as taught by the Son of God.

Take heed you do not put words into His mouth nor assume to teach false doctrine or pervert His Scriptures, repent, lest: Revelations 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
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written by greenarrow, April 15, 2008 15:01:34
Truely..I knew many Muslim Artist frens who are fond of using Painting brushes that are made of Hog s Hair ( Piggyhair)...they love those made in CHINA..Good & cheap !!!

They did tried using 'Nylon - artificial haired brushes'..somehow they were not satisfied with the performance...a fren said unto me ' Itu Babi punya bulu ..kualiti memang bagus sekali...fiber NYLON tak setanding mutu nya '

...the 'PELUKIS PELUKIS MALAYSIA' really know their stuff
Askar & polis berugama Islam pun latih & pegang anjing....apa salahnya Pelukis pegang Berus yg direka dgn Bulu BABI berkualiti 'International'

Lahpak tells Vellusamy..." The HINDRAF is spitting at you "....Vellu defended, " wait a minute...Hindraf is spitting at UMNO & you...b'coz BARISAN NASIONAL had demolished the Hindu Temples.....


.....& UMNO closed down many LADANG BABI

We Indian also love Siew Yoke & Char Siew rice...what the hell you closed them down...you can eat your Cows...the Chineses & Indians love the Char siew & Siew Yoke....please dont take away also our 'Wan Ton Mee'

If BABI out of stock...everyone is going to eat the AYAM & LEMBU
This Meats' Price will go up....its bad to the non Babi eaters !!!

At least PAS recommended the AYAM Char Siew
They dont mock at BABI eating

You had caused MIC so much defeat in this recent General election
Hindus dont eat Lembu..& you UMNO took away our Siew Yoke & Char Siew
That explained why the Majority Indians voted for the PAS & PKR who had tolerated with ' BABI SEDAP SEDAP MAKAN'

If you tried your funny enforcement strategy to wipe out ' LADANG BABI '....BARISAN NASIONAL going to attend its own FUNERAL in the next 13th General Election



- GreenArrow writes
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written by best4rakyat, April 15, 2008 15:19:47
Certain people can't take a bit of "cultural shock"! It could be personal agenda to dispute us Malayasian but it is a great waste not to agree about proper managing of pig's waste- a creation too and turn it into useful fertilizer for a nice garden with good revenue! Many research example in other countries like in Taiwan too. What smell? Give a bit time and who know we can have alternative to use the return for poverty. Do not be traditionally misled by silly leader.
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written by mikewang, April 15, 2008 15:51:49
For those who like to quote the Bible for inspiration and justification, let me remind you that the convenant between God and the descendents of Jacob (ie. the Jews)including prohibition to consume "unclean food" was only applicable to the descendents of the house of Jacob. (Exodus 19:3)

They don't cover the house of Ishmael nor everyone else and God's instruction to Noah was very clear in Genesis 9:3.
Even God's convenant with Abraham on circumcision was between God and the descendents of Abraham (ie. the Jews through his grandson Jacob and the Arabs through his son Ishamel) as in Genesis 17:10. It doesn't cover every follower of the "Abrahamic" faith.
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written by chanatak, April 15, 2008 18:59:15
"smilies/cheesy.gifo not think that I have come to abolish the Law . . . .” Jesus then went on in that passage (in verse 19) to denounce anyone who would break the smallest commandment and teach others likewise."

Rafick commits the same error almost every Christian commits in interpreting this verse. But since almost 99% of christians misinterpret it, Rafick is forgiven - more so than any Christian.

1) This verse applies to Jews to whom Jesus, as a Jew under the law was speaking to. It is correct to apply to Jews at that time.

2) Jesus says also every jot and tittle shall last until "all be fulfilled". Bible schools failed to see this point that Jesus had "fulfilled all" by the time he gave up his spirit on the cross. He said "Telestai" or "It is paid for". He fulfilled all the requirements of the law by his death on the cross without sin. He therefore set mankind free from the law.

3) Therefore, it is fits perfectly to what Jesus says elsewhere to the effect "It is not what you eat that defiles you, but what comes out of you". Isn't this so true? The church by taking the interpretation that Rafick too ( Rafick is not to be blamed) therefore fell into self contradiction with all the other principles of freedom that Jesus preached about.

Jesus says he came to set us free. Paul understood perfectly what Jesus taught, and therefore said no less than 12 times that the law is dead, the law is over, if anyone goes by the law he is cursed by the law and so on....
Paul is consistent. The Church has fallen foul in its interpretation and is too proud to admit it. I suspect also that the church often turns a blind eye because the church system wants to exercise mind control over its members. And so the church fails in its duty. It teaches, on the one hand, the concept of grace free from law ( only the Jew have to obey the law before liberation by the death of Jesus, but of course the Jews refused to accept this grace till this day ); and immediate in the next breath, the churches teaches that certain laws must still be observed. That's confuses many believers. Law is not for Christians. Law and OT is for Jews. Christians read OT in order to understand the need for grace and faith.





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written by chanatak, April 15, 2008 19:03:50
FORBIDDING TO EAT CERTAIN FOOD ( after Jesus has set people free from the law) IS CALLED "DOCTRINE OF DEMONS"

A further point to note. this is for all Christians to take note:

There is a verse in 1 Timothy that states as follows:
1Ti 4:1 The Great Apostasy
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1Ti 4:2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,
1Ti 4:3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving;
1Ti 4:5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer."
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written by cancan, April 15, 2008 21:58:51
Business versus Politics

Link: http://www.kingsmary.********.com/
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written by rantNrave, April 15, 2008 22:46:32
From an economic perspective it is better to rear pigs than cows or goat. It is simply more profitable. Read how Jews & Muslim Moroccans are profiting with pig farms.http://www.smh.com.au/news/africa/pig-farms-bloom-in-muslim-morocco/2008/04/01/1206850863399.html
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written by Eskay Lim, April 16, 2008 14:55:56
Kindly allow my 2 cents worth of comment:
When Jesus and later on Mohamad made their declaration in the Bible & the Quran, that swine is unclean and should not be consumed, it made perfect sense because at that period of time, swine was a free-roaming animal and ate anything that could be eaten, whether clean or dirty.
But two thousand years down the road, pigs of today have become domesticated animals. Pigs are now reared in pig-pens and given food & water 3 times a day. Foods here mean industrially prepared with correct nutritional propoertions. After each meal, the pigs are given a thorough washed-down with powerful jets of water to wash the pigs and also to clean the pig-pen of any left-over food. (You can even sit among the pigs without dirtying your clothes). Such is the conditin of a modern-pig-farm.
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written by mumonthecase, April 16, 2008 15:49:07
It is no use quoting the bible to put across a point against pig farming. The bible was written hundreds of years ago. We all know Jews and Muslims don't eat pork because they fear disease, and it's "Supposedly" a dirty animal. However, pig rearing, if done properly, can be done cleanly and in sanitised buildings thus making pig meat a more popular meat.

It's very tasty meat. Roast pork, bacon, ham slices on sandwiches...mmmmmm!!!! Lovely! I have eaten it all my life and it hasn't driven me mad, nor given me any disease. Only a foolish person follows the teachings of an old book without questioning and investigating for himself or herself on how these animals are reared and what they are fed.

I think they are cute and there are a lot of collectors of pig paraphinalia. Leave the Chinese to rear their pigs and stop interfering just because you bleieve they are bad...because a book told you so.

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