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PAS should be told that the Islamic State is a fallacy and does not exist PDF Print
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Thursday, 01 October 2009 01:18

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To his list, I would add “Islamic state”, because, contrary to popular Muslim opinion, there is not a shred of theological, historical or empirical evidence to support the existence of such an entity.

NO HOLDS BARRED

Raja Petra Kamarudin

'There's nothing Islamic about a state'

Mehdi Hasan

New Statesman, 2 April 2009

Mehdi Hasan explains why there could never be a true Islamic state

Like my fellow Muslims, I strenuously object to the lazy conjugation of the words Islamic and terrorism, for the rather obvious reason that there is nothing Islamic about the murder of innocent civilians. Unlike so many of them, however, I also take issue with the term “Islamic state”, and for the very same reason: there is nothing Islamic about a state. The two concepts have nothing in common.

Let’s take the word Islamic. The casual and careless application of this adjective to religious and cultural phenomena alike has blurred the all-important distinction between Islam, the divinely revealed, perfect and infallible faith, and Muslims, the rather flawed, imperfect and very human practitioners of that faith.

As the historian Marshall Hodgson pointed out: “One can speak of ‘Islamic literature’, of ‘Islamic architecture’, of ‘Islamic philosophy’, even of ‘Islamic despotism’, but in such a sequence one is speaking less and less of something that expresses Islam as a faith.”

To his list, I would add “Islamic state”, because, contrary to popular Muslim opinion, there is not a shred of theological, historical or empirical evidence to support the existence of such an entity. Its supporters tend to mumble vaguely about this or that verse from the Quran, or make vacuous references to the life example of the Prophet Muhammad. But the Quran prescribes no particular model of government, nor does it detail a specific political programme that Muslims must adopt. In fact, the concept of the state appears nowhere in the Quran.

And why would it? In his new book, Islam and the Secular State: Negotiating the Future of Sharia, the Sudanese-born academic Professor Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na’im points out: “You will not find any reference to an Islamic state or to state enforcement of sharia before the mid-20th century – it’s a post-colonial discourse based on a European-style state.”

Many Muslims fall back on a romanticised view of the very first community of believers in 7th-century Medina, ruled by the Prophet himself, and cite it admiringly as their precedent for an Islamic state, but this approach is flawed. First, any historical precedent that revolves around the presence of a divinely guided prophet-as-political-leader seems wholly irrelevant, in an era in which we have no divinely guided prophet to lead us.

Second, the Medina “state” should be seen as a purely political and pragmatic, rather than Islamic or religious, construct. The celebrated pact that the Prophet signed with the various tribes of Medina involved the non-Muslims of the city – chief among them the Jews, who were granted formal equality with the Muslims – recognising only his political and temporal, rather than his religious or spiritual, authority. As the historian Bernard Lewis puts it: “Muhammad became a statesman in order to accomplish his mission as a prophet, not vice versa.”

Third, Medina lacked fixed borders, a standing army, a police force, permanent civil servants, government ministries, foreign ambassadors and a public treasury. To pretend that it can serve as a practical model for the large, complex, post-industrial societies of the 21st century is fanciful.

Today it is difficult, if not impossible, to identify a Muslim-majority nation that could plausibly be identified as a modern, viable and legitimate “Islamic state”. Sunni Saudi Arabia and Shia Iran both loudly proclaim themselves to be such, but to each other they are heresies; they are also dictatorial regimes with terrible human-rights records. How about the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, blighted by military rule for much of its history? Or Sudan, accused of committing crimes against humanity among its own Muslim population in Darfur?

Not surprisingly, Professor An-Na’im concludes that “the Islamic state is a historical misconception, a logical fallacy and a practical impossibility”.

Mehdi Hasan is the New Statesman’s Senior Editor (politics) and the news and current affairs editor at Channel 4

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The Falsity of the Concept of the Islamic State

by Abdassamad Clarke

There is no word in the Qur'an or in the hadith literature for 'state'. The Arabic word that is commonly used - 'dawlah' - does not occur in the Qur'an. [The word doulah does occur in the Qur'an. The best exegesis of both dawlah and doulah is in Sultaniyya by Shaykh Dr Abdalqadir as-Sufi.]

Nevertheless, later Muslims used the term, the Ottomans among others. The Ottomans were known as the Osmanli Dawlah and not the Ottoman Empire even though a word for Empire exists both in Arabic and Osmanlica. However, the Ottomans chose the term dawlah specifically in order not to use the term Empire.

The term 'state' begins to take its present day signification in the seventeenth century in Europe, some dating it from the Treaty of Westphalia. Its most essential feature in the modern world is that of a governing entity that legislates, i.e. creates laws, and most usually in our contemporary situation through some form of process of representative democracy.

For the Ottomans, dawlah encompassed the khalifah and his appointees whose job it is to bring the shari'ah into being, but not to create legislation.

The concept of the Islamic state first came about in the modern world by means of the Islamic modernists, so let us first examine the issue of Islamic modernism or modernist Islam. It has various roots, but in essence it stems from a misunderstanding of Western dominance over the lands of Islam, which itself issues from a complete misreading of western history and the nature of Western society. The modernists assume that it was the features of Western society that were unusual to it and different from Islamic modes that gave Westerners dominance over the lands of Islam, and that therefore it is sufficient merely to imitate the West in those unusual features for there to be a resurgence of political power in the lands of Islam.

This is why, we object seriously to the use of the term 'Islamic State', just as we object, if possibly even more strenuously, to terms such as 'Islamic economics' and 'Islamic banks'. All of these concepts are based on the idea that we can Islamicise things which are fundamentally alien to Islam, and Allah knows best.

The above is an extract. The full article can be read here: http://www.bogvaerker.dk/state.html

Comments (53)Add Comment
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written by GoMalaysian.********.Com, October 01, 2009 02:37:32
What i learn from my Malay friends is Islam teach us:

- Fight Corruption & Cronisme
- No Racist
- Equality

I hope PAS can look into this matters first...

Twitter.com/GoMalaysian
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written by arazak, October 01, 2009 03:08:52
PAS got their priorities wrong. They should loosen their turbans to get that oxygen carrying blood flow to their heads. For them, getting rid of beer is more important than getting rid of corruption!

On a different note, I would rather have Hannah Yeoh of DAP to be Selangor's MB than Hassan Ali of PAS. Hannah spoke about fighting corruption, while Hassan talks about beer being sold at 7eleven!
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written by Richfyf, October 01, 2009 04:57:53
Emmm wonder if there is a Christian State, Buddhist State, Hindu State, and if anyone knows about such state hopefully they can explain to me how such State come to being.

I have heard of people talking about Islamic state all the time and I still cant tell the difference between Islamic state or Buddhist State.

I have heard of Islamic banking, Islamic kindergarten, Islamic law... but in real life I just do not know how to tell the difference.

I even hear Proton once talking about making and Islamic car for the middle east market. Till today I am still wondering how the Islamic Car will look like
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written by Semut Jantan, October 01, 2009 04:59:12
Could someone please be a real politician minus religion, just like the West?

Practice your religions in your private domain, please. Religions and politics DO NOT mix. Once you mix them together, you get Iran, Iraq, Libya, etc. If you don't mix, you get USA, England, Taiwan, etc.

Comprehende? Faham? &*%%@#% ?
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written by tumbledore, October 01, 2009 05:03:27
RPK,
even some educated malaysian muslims would'nt want to understand this
because they have been indoctrinated otherwise for over five decades.
we should be grateful that someone is taking the trouble to clarify
these things. thank you a million and my humble belated birthday wishes to you!
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written by wongnoball, October 01, 2009 05:10:19
Unfortunately with religious belief comes the support and battle cry....for both side of Politics & even Royalty(guardian of Munafik Islam, songkok & must be muslim to be MB) seems to drown out the REAL Ills of Malaysia society.

Opposition have always been fighting corruption...CORRUPTION, Murder, Torture, Racism, Poor, education, ISA, no freedom of religion, media....etc. Yet Rakyat Malaysia wants to allow these Evil UMNO controlled MSM functioning for one more day riles me(its 52 years of the same Crap for PETE's sake) MSM are brain washes and needs to be BURNT down QUICKLY. Our intelligence are insulted daily by these Munafik UMNO muslim leaders because they control the media and control 51% of rakyat thinking. Lets Burn all MSM down especially the RTM and stop the Spread of EVIL....the day they all get Burn Down...we can take Power via Revolution. Forget about GE13...and many more election...all Rigged, the courts, police, judiciary are under UMNO-BN control and make no mistake about it. ALL under instruction to Favour/ SANGAT Berat Sebelah toward UMNO because they are all have CORRUPTED money from UMNO cronies. We can only Burn these crooks and cronies empire down to restore the fear and justice that people SEEK!!

Its No Crime Promoting Fear, Fair Play and Justice!! Otherwise Evil have NO fear in Malaysia!! Terror Back!!
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written by SamSan, October 01, 2009 05:50:58
Kelantan ruled by our pious, humble and much reverred spritual leader Tok Guru Nik Aziz is the closest example of what an Islamic State might look like. Even our humble Tok Guru will admit having some human weakness and as such will find it immensely impossilbe to fully follow the precepts of our noble Nabi Muhammad (p.b.u.h) who had prophetic guidance.
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written by singam, October 01, 2009 06:09:11
Richfyf wrote "Emmm wonder if there is a Christian State, Buddhist State, Hindu State, and if anyone knows about such state hopefully they can explain to me how such State come to being."

I can tell a little about what I know of Hindu State and Buddhist State.

The much maligned caste system was, in its original form, an identification of career paths according to personality and orientation. Those who were of a martial nature became kshatrya, joined the army and the best ones made their way upward to the top. The king was a kshatrya.

People who preferred spiritual and intellectual pursuits became brahmins, learned and, as they progressed, enlightened. Similarly, there were the merchants, the manual labourers and those who took on jobs no one else would touch.

While the kshatrya ruled the land, he bowed to the wisdom of the brahmin and always sought advice before taking critical action. Thus his rule was tempered with wisdom. The moral values of the religion permeated his rulership. That would describe a Hindu State.

Ashoka is well know as one of the greatest emperors to have ruled India. What may not be so well know is that,in the beginning, Ashoka was a cruel and merciless ruler. Then, Ashoka discovered Buddhism. And from that point forward, his Empire flourished as one of the best in Indian history. It is a classic example of what constitutes a Buddhist State.

My understanding is that syariah is supposed to supplement the secular laws of the land. Where the laws of the land apply to the physical world, syariah overlays the law and provides the moral compass for the nation. There is no such thing as a land ruled by syariah. Syariah is always the second layer.

But all this changed with the Ottoman Empire. The harsh secular laws of the state became enmeshed into the syariah and this was applied wherever the Ottomans had influence. This is why the so-called syariah that we see today no longer represents the Love and Compassion of God. It has degraded into the harshness and cruelty of the men who want to control other men.

Today's so-called syariah is no longer Islamic. It will not bring anyone closer to Allah. On the contrary, it can only take mankind away from Bismillah-ir-Rahman-ir-Rahim.
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written by educationist, October 01, 2009 06:24:34
PAS has been told now.
But it will not make a difference to morons like that Hassan fella,
They are playing to a gallery of their own, not caring that their actions will jeopardise the rakyat's hopes for change.
Change for a more civil, just, fair and democractic society.
PAS can then call that society Islamic for all I care.
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written by A MI, October 01, 2009 07:53:30
I have said this before. PAS will never get majority support in all states. They freak out Muslims, what more non-Muslims. Once Tok Guru goes the party is a gonner, I am afraid if there aren't enough leaders like Nizar. We, in Malaysia need a strong party. PKR, although it has some good souls and some intellectual ones, is in my opinion still shaky.

The reality is that the new party cannot be like DAP or the new Makkal Sakti. It has to be one with enough Malay support.

The good news is that there is a sizeable number of young educated Malays who are fed up with UMNO. I don't think they are PAS supporters either and would consider joining and supporting a moderate party based on Universal Values. Remember Obama won with the resounding support from young African Americans. We can do it too if the new party is open and sincere without hidden agendas.
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written by batsman, October 01, 2009 08:08:17
Forget the state. How's about a simple uncomplicated Caliphate instead?
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written by Panca Indera, October 01, 2009 08:24:33
Now read the other side of the argument, then think for yourself.
Bismillah
Quote;
"Society without a State

It is evident that a society without a State and a system of laws cannot hope to survive, and even if it does, presumably, it cannot be a society of a high order that can cater to all the needs and demands of the human nature. The existence of social order is an essential need confirmed by all Divine religions. In an anarchic society devoid of any system of law and order, neither prophethood can fulfil the objectives of its mission of guiding the people, nor is there any ready ground for the worship of God and implementation of His commands. In a state of social and political chaos, the goals mentioned in the following Divine verse cannot be achieved:

Indeed, We sent Our messengers with the clear signs, and We sent down with them the Book and the Balance, so that mankind may uphold justice .... (57:25)

The necessity of the existence of the State is a self‑evident axiom, readily accepted by reason and also affirmed by the Shari'ah. If there can be any argument about government and the State, it is with regard to their form and characteristics. Here, we arrive at the heart of our problem: In case of the absence of a God‑appointed sovereign (al‑wali al‑mansus), who should occupy the office of the sovereign?
READ more to understand MORE
link http://www.al-islam.org/al-taw...tate/3.htm
Al-Islam.org
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written by Braino, October 01, 2009 08:38:22
Is lame to keep on insisting Malaysia is an Islamic state when the FC is very clear on the status of Malaysia being a secular country with Islam being the religion of the federation. All other religions can freely be practised in Malaysia.....period!
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written by Bigjoe99, October 01, 2009 09:00:04
So, someone enlighten an ignoramus like me, IF the original Media state was NOT not a formal govt with taxes, civil service, army, police etc? What was it??? The Jews governed themselves and Muhammad was recognised as a sort of final judge if there is was any dispute?

Someone please enlightened...
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written by quietguy, October 01, 2009 09:51:14
Braino,

Please explain where in the Malaysian Constitution where it "... is very clear on the status of Malaysia being a secular country...". There is not even a single instance of the word 'secular' in the Constitution.
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written by sydput, October 01, 2009 10:19:20
It is too difficult for muslims to strive for justice and righteousness, the main message in the main message in the koran for those who have faith in God.
Muslims would rather serve their religion and religious scholars rather than serve God. All religion promotes idol worship.
It is very wrong to defend religion.
And God The Almighty does not need our help to defend Him.
God gives us sustenance. He does not need anything from us, either in the form of suicide bombings, worship or anything. In fact He does not even require us.
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written by cabearth, October 01, 2009 10:31:15
A law professor from Harvard name Noah Feldman negates the notion that Islamic state has never existed in the history of Islam in his article entitled "Why Shariah"

In it, Noah provides a clear and precise description on the structure and workings of an Islamic state

http://antiantihadeeth.*******...e-who.html
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written by cabearth, October 01, 2009 10:37:17
Islamic states is essentially a balance between the powers of the executive and the judiciary operated by an influential group of scholars. Throughout the history of Islam, balance of power has been the most important trait of the Islamic state, for an Islamic state is not an islamic state without the balance of power existing.
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written by Admiral Tojo, October 01, 2009 11:14:37
Examples of Islamic State - Norway, New Zealand, Sweden where justice and peace prevails. Islamic State - a State where PEACE prevails, and there is NO peace without Justice.

Cabearth, as usual, makes the fundamental mistake of equating ISLAM - the state of being with the erroneous assumption that ISLAM is the Pagan Arab Religion. For more go to mentalbondageinthenameofgod.*********.com or aididsafar.com where the arguments to the above are presented.

The Arab laws of the desert is a misfit to modern evolved society, where thinking and commonsense are the backbone of decision making.

Shalom
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written by Braino, October 01, 2009 13:09:20
Can anyone give a clear cut definition of what an Islamic state is. And kindly compare if it is stated in our FC? If not pls keep quiet!

Is it allowed in an Islamic state to have gambling outlets, bars and a host of "sin" trade being freely given licenses to operate? Also collecting and using such tax money that are derive from such "sin" trade to run the country's administrative and development activities.
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written by Davy McChester, October 01, 2009 13:35:02
Can the years of brainwashing,which were done deliberately and cunningly by immigrants,from surrounding countries who were so quick to proclaim themselves as bumiputras by virtue of religion, with complete disregard to nation building, disappear over night ? The craving for an Islamic state would again be seen as another deliberate brainwashing attempt by these same non bona fide immigrants to reinforce their hold to further alienate the citizens.They will attempt to preserve their status quo at any course ,even at their long term disadvantage .They want the power to call the shots even if it going to create chaos for the nation. They need to take a cue from this article that ,chaos is not selective,their generation would also see no peace. So please face the fact ,peace comes when laws are applied without fear or favour ,equally against male and female,equally among its citizens irrespective of religion. You have this guarantee in a secular nation,where religion is private and kept at home. Compare secular nations and so called Islamic nations. One end everything is far ahead ,including mission to the moon and mars,technology and science ,medicine and agriculture. The other end,even the car and aircraft helps to speed up travel,without the screaming of the desert burden came
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written by Jan, October 01, 2009 15:14:33
The trouble with our country started when PAS seemingly won over more Malays with their Islamic approach than UMNO. In order to win back Malay support UMNO started to outdo PAS in all things Islamic, body snatching, no holding hands, peeping toms, tear down temples etc etc. Just when UMNO looks like winning again Hasan Ali and Dzukifli hit back with beer drinking and bar forum forages. Meanwhile we non people get caught in the middle as they outislamise each other. If they don't stop soon our country is going to be ruined.
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written by Rhan, October 01, 2009 16:10:18
I think both Ru Jia (Confucianism) and Dao Jia (Taoism) do promote the worship of custom, culture, values and every words of truth from ancient time. Fortunately or unfortunately, the Chinese suffer the very worst during the last three hundred years and knowing the rule of game has changed. We can’t just copy and paste. Perhaps Muslim needs to go through the same process. Anyhow not all civilization transpire at the same timeline.

Singam, Buddhist state mean the ruler is a Buddhist or the state is being managed under Buddhism principles?
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written by singam, October 01, 2009 19:43:30
Rhan, a definition is a hazardous thing unless terms of reference are defined beforehand.

I believe that if a state is being managed under the principles of a religion, it may be rather difficult to tell which religion is the model. But if the rituals of religion are imposed, then it would be easy. So how would I know whether or not Buddhist principles are being applied?

Then the question of the religion of the ruler - if he is a "card carrying" Buddhist, the chances are that he will impose some Buddhist rituals into his rulership. But if he is a true follower of the principles of his religion, I don't think he would impose his religion on the state.

So the answer to your question will not come from pat answers given by someone, They will come from observation of the ruler - if it was observed that he lived according to Buddhist ritual and ruled according to a moral code, his nation would be described by history as a Buddhist State. Thus it was with Asoka, arguably one of the best rulers India has ever seen.
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written by inoi, October 01, 2009 20:23:33
Malay muslim friend ask me to convert but i denied because i said i like pork and very much.
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written by latihanQ, October 01, 2009 20:25:45
Oscar Winner is right. Since PAS wants so much to work with UMNO, we might as well take the devil we know than the hypocrite PAS who wishes to work with UMNO. At least we have an original crook rather than PAS who pretends and betrays the people who supported them in Mar 2008.
I feel so betrayed by this Hassan Ali. Never again, no more will I believe their lies. I can tolerate and accept their Islamic state stance but I will not condone their stance on corruption. Hassan Ali has shown me where they stand on corruption.
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written by verifunny, October 01, 2009 21:31:38
It is just an ideology. I don't believe there are no corruption, sexual desires, violence, drugs and etc in those so-called "Islamic state". A recent case in Saudi Arabia about a guy talking about sexual desire is one good example.

Why don't build a fair and equal society since Malaysia is a multi-racial society? PAS can use their religion background to guide the people and set good examples.
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written by Tompios, October 01, 2009 21:48:29
Great stuffs! Yes, anything can happened in the sight of religion-eaters!
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written by Davy McChester, October 01, 2009 23:38:50
Oscar Winner ,that would not stop them.They need a life time enemy to please a God that does not need any help from earth. They need to pull down the progress of others to their outmoded thinking.In this instance,being a religious homogenous society does not help at all as too many failed nations prove this myth.But it succeeded with Japan,Korea,Taiwan,Hong Kong,China,Singapore,Thailand and countless others. God does not have time for hypocrites,but adds more grey matter to those who work for the betterment of all.No need to provide examples,too many to mention.
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written by Oxy, October 02, 2009 01:10:13
Why is everyone so flabbergasted about the Islamic state dream.
PAS might as well discuss about colonizing the Moon, if Terra don't seem
quite right. It is a non-issue, just mere talk. The real issue is about
Islam as the official religion of Malaysia. Why is no one talking about it?
Are there any social taboos to study the pros and cons about this subject
within the contex of nation building and of freedom of religion?
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written by Oscar Winner, October 02, 2009 01:22:47
Davy McChester, when we are not in their midst, who cares if they ever stop. Funny thing is, god is not listening to our cries for help. If god does listen, BN's rule would not have lasted 52 years, TBH would still be alive, Anwar would not be facing Sodomy II charge, RPK would not be in "self exile", Atlantuya would not have died, billions would not have been lost in PKFZ, and billions more would not have been looted. If Barisan Najis is not ousted, I fear my kids' future will be doomed. When will god listen?? If god doesn't listen still, then my suggestion would be a better alternative for the non-muslims
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written by slimbrowser, October 02, 2009 01:52:59
Islamic state is a fallacy? So do Islamic science, banking and anything Islamic attached.
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written by Panca Indera, October 02, 2009 09:34:17
To those who deny God and whose who believes in everything else but God. Please!!!!! Please!!! Just pause and ponder for 5 minutes (if its not too long) Who/What do you think gave you the power of speech? How can airwaves coming from deep in your lungs generate sounds that is not only audible to the human ears, but can make sense and give meaning.yet a very high pitch sound can be heard except by certain animal likes dogs.
Next how does sound waves can travel to the eardrums coverted into fluid waves that moves hairlike feelers in the inner ears converted into electrical signals, traveled to brain to produce a tangible meanings or even pictures.
Yes! Which then of the bounties of your Lord will you deny?
For the believers remember Surah 55
[55.1] The Beneficent God,
[55.2] Taught the Quran.
[55.3] He created man,
[55.4] Taught him the mode of expression.
[55.5] The sun and the moon follow a reckoning.
[55.6] And the herbs and the trees do adore (Him).
[55.7] And the heaven, He raised it high, and He made the balance
[55.8] That you may not be inordinate in respect of the measure.
[55.9] And keep up the balance with equity and do not make the measure deficient.
[55.10] And the earth, He has set it for living creatures;
[55.11] Therein is fruit and palms having sheathed clusters,
[55.12] And the grain with (its) husk and fragrance.
[55.13] Which then of the bounties of your Lord will you deny?
[55.14] He created man from dry clay like earthen vessels,
[55.15] And He created the jinn of a flame of fire.
[55.16] Which then of the bounties of your Lord will you deny?
[55.17] Lord of the East and Lord of the West.
[55.18] Which then of the bounties of your Lord will you deny?
[55.19] .He has made the two seas to flow freely (so that) they meet together:
[55.20] Between them is a barrier which they cannot pass.
[55.21] Which then of the bounties of your Lord will you deny?
[55.22] There come forth from them pearls, both large and small.
[55.23] Which then of the bounties of your Lord will you deny?
[55.24] And His are the ships reared aloft in the sea like mountains.
[55.25] Which then of the bounties of your Lord will you deny?
[55.26] Everyone on it must pass away.
[55.27] And there will endure for ever the person of your Lord, the Lord of glory and honor.
[55.28] Which then of the bounties of your Lord will you deny?
[55.29] All those who are in the heavens and the earth ask of Him; every moment He is in a state (of glory).
.......................... smilies/cool.gif
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written by SoundMan, October 02, 2009 09:54:32
BBC today reported in Somalia (a UN reported failed state)southern port of Kismayo, two Islamicgroups fought each other for control - their earlier arrangements on Governing the Port to all appearances has fallen through to bloody consequences. In Malaysia we have two Islamic political parties, PAS on one side and UMNO the other, sparring with words for now. Do note examples of Islamic governance in such diverse countries such as the unfortunate Somalia, Iraq,Iran, Lebanon, Gaza strip & West Bank territories, Afghanistan, and Pakistan where it did not take long for guns to replace words. We will rue the day when we allow the fable of an utopia of good governance- the Islamic religion- 'promise' into our Government.
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written by temenggong, October 02, 2009 16:39:29
There is no such thing as islamic state or islamic laws or islamic shariah. No such thing. What we do have is arab tribal laws passing of as shariah. There are different laws in different areas. Arabs, Iran, Egypt, all have their own tribal or shariah laws. These tribal laws and punishments were already in effect during the days of Mohammmed, hence it is sometimes mention in the quran. The point is, these 'shariah' are pre-islamic laws and punishments!

BTW, the quran IS NOT a law book.
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written by temenggong, October 02, 2009 16:42:27
Singam you are entirely wrong on hindu and buddhist theocracies. But this is not the place to delve into that.
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written by Loh, October 02, 2009 17:46:17
Non-Muslims do not know the teaching of Islam, but they do believe that all religions are created for the followers to behave as good citizens. Practitioners of any religion would be happy to observe rules and rites of the religion they have chosen, but not to observe those demanded of other religion.

Malaysian constitution allows freedom in the choice and practice of any religion. At the moment, the people are not controlled by the state in matters pertaining to the practice of their own religion, with the exception of Muslims who are under the supervision of the Religious departments. The non-Muslims certainly do not want this to happen to them.

PAS has vowed their vision to create an Islamic state. Non-Muslims would want to be assured that the state would not impose on them Islamic rules and regulations. The most important question they ask is whether it is the intention of PAS to make all Malaysians Muslims, in practice if not in name. In that case it would be depriving the protection of freedom of religious practice as provided in the constitution. {Of course UMNO has treated Malaysian constitution like toilet paper.}

If the intention of a so-called Islamic state is to make Muslims observe the true teaching of it could be achieved by declaring the Islamic guidelines for Muslims to follow, without declaring the country as an Islamic state. In that way, the true practitioners of Islamic religion should have no problem supporting the policies while non-Muslims could be assured that Muslims truly adhere to the teaching of the religion, particularly in equality and justice.
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written by CBP, October 02, 2009 19:16:12
True wisdom.

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written by lynn, October 02, 2009 22:10:34
Panca Indera,

It's high time your God came down and help us Malaysians. We really desperately need divine help. Bcos GE13 is too far away, or may never happen. So please, unless you didn't notice, most of us are living in quiet desperation.
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written by leftygoodfella, October 03, 2009 01:32:02
Yes, there is no such thing as Islamic state. That's because the Prophet Mohammed himself was an Internationalist. But there is such thing as Islamic politics and economics.

Like u said many times, Pete; Islam is not just a religion. It's a way of life. Islam itself is an ideology. It's very much similar to socialism, and it was introduced by the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh)long before Karl Marx. It will take one long article to discuss the similarity between socialism and Islam. To begin with, both Islam and socialism oppose the idea of capitalism. And both subscribe to the idea of Internationalism, in order to create a world that is near utopian. That was why Prophet's Madinah had no state border. It was unnecessary. And the list goes on.. study both, and u'll find how the Quran contains the ideas on how to manage a state to ensure fairness, which u'll find repetitive in Karl Marx ideology.

The problem came after the death of the Prophet, when corruption and misuse of power were justified by the name of Islam. This was done by none other but the companions who went against their Prophet and the 'ahlul bayt' to fulfill their own greed. And it went for thousands of years after that, in the hand of Umayyads, Abassids, the Ottomans, and the current so-called 'Islamic states'.

PAS don't understand this. And they refuse to associate themselves to socialism though both Islam and socialism share the same principal. Because socialism has been antagonized by the colonials.
Now, you wanna see where DAP and PAS should share a common ground? It's the principal of socialism. Call it Islamic or socialism. Call it whatever you like. It's the same thing - anti-capitalism. both oppose the idea of the oppression, injustice and bullying tactics practiced by the rich against the poor. Both recognized the struggle of class.. Understand this.
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written by leftygoodfella, October 03, 2009 01:33:35
correction: PAS don't understand this. And they refuse to associate themselves to socialism though both Islam and socialism share the same principal. Because socialism has been antagonized by the colonials, thus unpopular..
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written by leftygoodfella, October 03, 2009 02:01:45
PAS misunderstood Islamic Law. It's not about punishment. It's about forgiveness.
I believe the law called hudud and qisas (generally called 'jinaayat law') by the muslims, was actually a common law that started long before christianity, before judaism even.. Does the law of "an eye for an eye" sounds familiar to you? You got that both in the Bible and the Quran. Islam call it Qisas Law. in Quran the Qisas ayat was followed with "but to forgive is being the most pious act." (or to that effect).
There's no such thing as Shari'a law. Its a redundancy. Sharia means 'law' in Arab. u dun say the "law of undang-undang", do you? smilies/smiley.gif
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written by Bandit, October 03, 2009 11:11:36
One thing that really needs attention is the doing away with the Monarchs. They have been fed long enough and its time to use the same money to help those less fortunate and provide better incentives to lure back our "brains" from overseas. Its time we make malaysia a republic.
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written by temenggong, October 03, 2009 11:54:52
It has been established by islamic scholars that most of these pre-islamic tribal shariah laws were actually the existing jewish laws.

The question is, why do malays want to follow jewish laws? Should they not follow their own undang-adat?

The undang-adat of the nusantara which was prevalent in this region in the pre-malacca days, are the laws of Sri Vijaya and Majapahit which was governing this region when Malaya was a part of this empires.
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written by Eskay Lim, October 03, 2009 22:36:13
Panca Indera,
Please be kind enough to invoke your God to rid some of our past & current politicians of their ungodly behavior, those who are dual-faced and talk with fork-tongue. Those who are arrogant, racists, those who cheat, steal and practise corruption.
Transform them into zoombies to show the real power of good over evil.
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written by Ali Cordoba, October 05, 2009 20:03:07
I understand the need to render irrelevant any idea of an 'Islamic' state or rather the non-existence of what is called 'Islamic State'. However, I need these answers very honestly to satisfy myself on the points raised by the few authors and the commentators here:
1. Who ruled Madinah-Makkah when it was taken by the Muslims?
2. What laws were applicable in Makkah-Madinah when Rasulullah (Peace Be Upon Him) was the de-facto leader of Makkah-Madinah when he and his people took over the two holy cities?
3. What was the constitution of the many Caliphates that rules from Makkah to Persia, India and even Turkey and Malaya or Nusantara for centuries?

If these does not to the least show that Islam did establish itself politically as a 'state', a nation and an Empire for generations, then I would say that someone, somehow is trying to make us believe that Islam is devoid of politics and is not good as a model for a state.

Does that not equal what the Umno is telling us everyday that is, only Umno's way of living is better, best or even goodest? LOL.
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written by Ali Cordoba, October 05, 2009 20:05:42
One more thing. Can anyone here deny that the Charter of Madinah - which WorldFutures rendered very popular here sometime back - was not the very first constitution established by a Muslim state?

OK granted it was not a constition as would argue the 'opponents'. What about the rule of the Quraan in the lives of the Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Chinese, Creoles and what not when Islam was effectively RULING Makkah-Madinah with Rasulullah (Peace Be Upon Him) as the HEAD, the CHIEF, the LEADER or the RULER!

LOL...funny
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written by Ali Cordoba, October 05, 2009 20:08:32
To answer one of the statement that there's no Holy man (Prophet) to run our lives today 1430something2 years later, I would say read the Quraan well and understand when it says the Muslim (of course the leader of Muslims today) is the 'Khilaf' say Caliph of Allah and that we (Men) are Allah's reps on earth. Hence no need for a Prophet at each turn of decades to lead us. again...LOL.
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written by Panca Indera, October 07, 2009 22:48:08
Dear Eskay Lim
He is not my God ONLY, He is also your God, ALLAH AZZA WAJALLA
So you have to say these prayers with me as well:

All Praise and Glory be, to Allah the All Mighty and Wise.
Master of the Day of Judgement.
Thee alone we worship and Thee alone we seek for help and assistance.
I, Eskay and all honest living Malaysians and panca indera, implore and beg of You, ALLAH/Yahweh/God/Lord to grant our request to free our people and nation from the crutch of the evil doers of the Government officials, administrators and politicians who are destroying this country with their corruptions .

LORD! We know that You are testing our faith, belief and patience in confronting these evil forces and we admit that we are weak without Your Help. Help us please Oh LORD, the WISE and Knowing. Punish those folks as they have cause misery and Injustice on this land.

Our lifes and deaths are in your hands and ONLY YOU can make or break our wishes.
YOU are the MASTER and we are your slaves. To YOU shall all of us return.

Note:Eskay do not be unduly troubled by these people. Just take care of yourself and those around you. The Guilty folks will be punished if not now , in the grave and afterlife for their transgression.
God's Justice will NEVER be compromised.
smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif
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