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Here in body, gone in mind PDF Print
Wednesday, 13 February 2008 12:38

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No, legislation and laws are not what we need. What we need are Muslims setting good examples to prove that Islam is everything they say it is. Only then would Muslims not want to leave Islam. Instead non-Muslims would become Muslims in droves. At the moment, though, I can't see that happening, not in 100 years.

NO HOLDS BARRED

Raja Petra Kamarudin

Converts to Islam can change their minds, Egyptian court rules

Cairo, February 11, 2008

In a landmark case, an Egyptian court has ruled that the state must recognise the right of Christians who convert to Islam to change their minds and revert to Christianity.

While Egyptian law is largely secular, personal status issues such as conversion, marriage and divorce are governed by the religious laws of the relevant community.

Egypt is primarily Muslim but has a substantial Coptic Christian minority.

Saturday's ruling by the Supreme Administrative Court said 12 people who had converted to Islam from Christianity and back again could have their reversion to their original faith stated on their government identity papers.

The court ruling, which overturned a lower court decision in April, now obliges the Ministry of the Interior to issue the plaintiffs with birth certificates and identity papers identifying them as Christians.

"This opens the door of hope to hundreds of Copts who converted … and were then unable to return," said Mamdouh Nakhla, a human rights lawyer.

But the paperwork will note their previous conversion to Islam - a caveat one human rights activist said was an invitation to discrimination. It "will open the door to discrimination … by extremist officers or civil servants when they see in the entry that they left Islam," said Gamal Eid, head of the Arabic Network for Human Rights.- REUTERS

Let me paint a hypothetical situation. Say I was born a Muslim. I learned to recite the Quran at a very tender age and by puberty I was already praying five times a day. I even performed my pilgrimage to Mekah, a couple of times in fact, and practically did everything that a Muslim is supposed to do, at least as far as rituals are concerned.

Then, later in life, I decided I would like to educate myself on what the other religions are all about. Being not of these religions I was therefore free to roam the realms of the other religions and not confine myself to any specific doctrine. I was intrigued that the Quran says we are all followers of the religion of Abraham. Be it Jew, Christian or Muslim, you are all followers of Abraham. Are you therefore a Jew or Christian and I, a Muslim, or are we all 'Abrahamites', but of various sects that have been labelled Orthodox Jew, Samaritan, Hasidic, Haredi, Catholic, Coptic, Greek Orthodox, Adventist, Anabaptist, Baptist, Congregationalist, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Reformed, Pentecostal, Anglican, Restorationist, Sunni, Wahabbi, Salafi, Shiah, Ismailiyah, Kharijite, Sufi, Naqshbandi, Bahai, Druze, Ahmadiyya, Nation of Islam, Zikri, Hindu, Buddhist, etc.?

I eventually began to believe that there is only one religion, the religion of God. But humankind decided to compartmentalise itself into various boxes and then posted labels that now run into scores. When did it all start? Where was the beginning? And when did the rot first set in?

Okay, I can accept the argument that, along the way, many Prophets were sent down by God to correct the distortions and deviations to His religion that were perpetuated by mankind throughout the ages. According to Islamic tradition, there were more than 124,000 Messengers and Prophets since the beginning of time. Abraham himself did not introduce a new religion. He just 'reverted' to the original and correct doctrine of the One God. He opposed the many Gods created by humans from stone, metal and wood. And the same went for Moses, Jesus and Muhammad.

So, if this is true, then where did Judaism, Christianity, Islam and their numerous sects and sub-sects come from? Only one can be true. They can't all be true. Of course, it could be that they are actually all false and none are true. Humankind does have this bad habit of distorting history. Even the most recent history of Merdeka and the May 13 tragedy have been grossly distorted. What we have been told is not at all what really happened. We have been fed lies upon lies. And Merdeka and May 13 happened in an era when there were still and moving cameras. The evidence is clear. Yet, in spite of this indisputable evidence and the many witnesses still alive who can testify to the truth, they are still able to lie to us, distort the truth, and fool 90% of Malaysians into believing 'their version' of events.

What about events that happened more than 2,000 years ago in the age before there were any proper records? No doubt, today, records exist in the form of 'holy books'. But when were these books written and who wrote them? Did the Prophets themselves record history in their own handwriting or was history recorded centuries after their deaths by 'hidden' hands? Were these books written as a true reflection of events or were they tailored to justify and strengthen certain beliefs and myths? In other words, was the cart placed after or before the horse?

After pondering over the 'evidence', or lack of it as the case may be, I form an opinion that Judaism, Christianity, Islam and all their numerous sects and sub-sects never came from God but are mere inventions of mankind. This very belief of rejecting 'organised' religion causes me to 'leave' religion. How would Muslims deal with this?

I never renounce Islam. I never ask to leave Islam to become a Christian, or whatever. In fact, I now don't believe in any religion. I officially still remain a Muslim though. But because of my very belief that religions do not exist but were mere creations and distortions of mankind, this causes me to have left not only Islam but religion itself. How would Muslims deal with this?

You can prevent Muslims from leaving Islam if they do so openly. You can pass laws making it a crime or even sentence apostates to death. But for every one Muslim who openly leaves Islam, thousands or tens of thousands more 'leave' Islam secretly. They do not wish to make their exit official. But Islam has left their hearts so they have therefore left Islam. And it is not just Islam that they have left. They have abandoned the very concept of organised religion.

You can legislate acts. But you cannot legislate thoughts or beliefs. What is in the mind of an individual only that individual, plus God, knows. You can't get into the minds of individuals to scan their thoughts. If they act out their belief then you could probably suspect what they are thinking. But if they act opposite to what they believe then not even their own parents would be any the wiser.

It is futile to try to legislate belief. If they can't believe openly then they will go underground and believe secretly. Maybe it would be better to focus on setting good examples and win converts through positive acts rather than reinforce their disbelief though negative acts. Persuasion instead of force wins more converts. And proper education and understanding would turn converts into staunch believers. You can lead a horse to water but you can't force it to drink. You can force a person to remain a Muslim but you can't force that person to believe in the Quran, Muhammad or God. That is a matter of the heart and mind.

But how do you win the battle of the hearts and minds when the very people who are supposed to uphold the dignity of the religion are instead defiling the religion? If I was a doubter, what I see around me would just confirm my doubts. It would not make me doubt my doubts. It would convince me that I am justified in doubting.

Look at how Muslims act. They scream that Islam is a religion of peace but they preach war. They scream that Islam is a compassionate religion but they preach death. They scream that Islam is a tolerant religion but they condemn kafirs (infidels). They talk about going right but they turn left. That is the greatest disservice these people do to Islam and which not only puts off non-Muslims but even Muslims themselves.

I used to have great respect for imams, gurus, ulamaks and all such people of the cloth. I would go out of my way to be near them and kiss their hands. There is nothing I would not do for them. All they need to do is to open their mouths and consider it done. Money was no obstacle in the way of the Lord. But the closer I got to them, the more I detected hypocrisy. I began to suspect that the 'cloth' they wore was merely a camouflage to fraud and deceive. This is not confined to just Muslims but is apparent in all societies and religions. No doubt there is some good amongst all that bad. There may even be many good amongst just some of the bad. But all it needs is one buffalo to muddy the entire herd.

I personally met a Malay contractor who testified that the imam of the National Mosque (Masjid Negara) demanded a bribe of RM30,000 for a maintenance contract his company was going to be awarded. This contractor showed me documents to convince me he is telling the truth because he realised such a story would be very hard to swallow. This imam eventually joined Umno and contested against Dr Wan Azizah Wan Ismail in Pematanag Pauh. Another supplier of cleansing chemicals testified that he too had to pay the bilal of the National Mosque a bribe for the items he supplied the mosque. This supplier, a convert to Islam who I had known since school days, was shocked and understandably became very disillusioned with his new-found religion. Can you blame him if he decides to go back to Christianity?

No, legislation and laws are not what we need. What we need are Muslims setting good examples to prove that Islam is everything they say it is. Only then would Muslims not want to leave Islam. Instead non-Muslims would become Muslims in droves. At the moment, though, I can't see that happening, not in 100 years.

Comments (102)Add Comment
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written by gtpan, February 13, 2008 13:12:22
What's in mind of human actually?? In Malaysia is obvious that corruption and bribery has become so rampant and way of life. It's the present goverment fault that this is happening bcoz they did not instill good value of life to the people. Even worse when our so called "leader" approved this kind of behavior and controlling all the rules and laws including shariah law.
I 100% agreed that Muslim should set good example. Think outside the box and not just follow blindly...
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written by Spear Bing, February 13, 2008 13:24:00
Dear YM RPK,

You should translate this article and your previous ones into Bahasa and host them or despatch them to the " Council of Ulamaks or Imams, Malaysia", to the Harakah Website, to the UMNO website, etc and to all the mainstream media.

Hopefully with your continuous revelations and commentaries in this MT website, some divine intervention or some spiritual epiphany will dawn on us Malaysians as well as to the Ulamaks and Imams who really need to go for a refresher course in order to redeem the glory of Islam in its most quintessential purity.

Salam
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written by cocomomo, February 13, 2008 13:42:44
agree with Spear Bing that this should be made available in Malay and circulated more widely so that the simple folks who look up to their imams including the hollow imam of Islam Had... will hopefully have their eyes and minds opened
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written by grant, February 13, 2008 14:48:45
Corruption exists everywhere. It is just a matter of magnitude. I dont think it is the religion that drives us to be corrupted. China doesnt have an organized religion as Money is their only true God. But China is the most corrupted country I have ever known, maybe now second in rank overtaken by Malaysia. The problem is we in Msia (whoever we maybe) has set the precedent that taking bribes and being corrupted is normal. If I see somebody taking bribe while I dont, it makes me a fool rather than being looked upon as noble and trustworthy. Today everybody in Malaysia is asking for bribes and being corrupted because the government themselves aint doing anything. Why they arent doing anything because again as I said they themselves are corrupted. U cant be a pot calling the kettle black can u?
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written by SBennit, February 14, 2008 01:40:26
You misread that rhyder.

The lady's tee shirt must have said. "F**K OBAMA". I've got one of those tee shirts too, and whenever I put it on. I get many unwanted help from strangers like you.
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written by seek justice, February 14, 2008 02:00:29
What we need are Muslims setting good examples to prove that Islam is everything they say it is.
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Dear RPK

You had said in an earlier piece that it is not Islam but Muslims that are to blame . The Muslims that you are directly referring to in the statement above are those with 'power' to rule the country, their fellow Muslims, whoever...at least, that's what I think you are getting at. At the risk of insulting you, I believe you do agree that religion, any religion is a way of life. I, personally hold steadfast to that the Quran, which has not been altered through the years is the ultimate beacon to a fruitful and fulfilled life. The Sunnah of Muhammad SAW, I believe must be taken in simply with a clear, logical mind - and the Almighty God granted us the brains to do so.

I feel saddened that your frustrations with those who use religion for the wrong reasons had led you "to have left not only Islam but religion itself.". My question to you is : What are your convictions on Malaysia Today?. It is an organized form of what? What are your convictions on your fans, me included? What are you trying to do via MT?

I know you know, I'm not sure I know but I am very sure God knows.

Peace.
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written by AhSeng, February 14, 2008 08:21:59
"The time has come for us to walk the talk. The time is now because we are marching into battle with little resources. We need your financial assistance to help force changes to a system that continues to repulse and insult us after 50 years of independence.

I had intended to put up the appeal for support for DAP Election Fund together with support for a Fund for the Foundation for Justice, Freedom and Equality to promote the betterment of Malaysian society, including public litigation, publications, educational programmes as well as outreach to marginalised Malaysians, but the latter project will now have to wait until after the 12th general election.

Let us unite with single-minded objective - to turn the 12th general election into the electoral battle of the century to initiate meaningful change in Malaysia, first time in the nation’s 50-year history. For this we need your generous support for the DAP Election Fund."

http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2008/02/13/time-to-walk-the-talk/
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written by grant, February 14, 2008 08:26:05
u guys are attacking the wrong person... just because pete wrote that way, spelling out his frustrations and how he feels, therefore u judge him. before u look upon his mistakes why not look at our own first. who are u to judge him? i can write watever i want and however i want but that doesnt give u the right to judge. let's just ask urself today what have u done? do u know why the world in condemning islam? do u know why there are inter religion wars? when god is just god and there is only a god yet we are fighting among ourselves. dont u think we are just stupid?

lets ponder hard before we judge others.
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written by RK Sundram, February 14, 2008 08:56:57
Spot on RPK! I share your view and this is what I have also been saying. Mankind's biggest WMD is religion. This has existed for thousands of years. Religions spanning the globe have blood on their hands all because of the power base of the institutions that run them. Take any holy book and it has been edited to suit the masters. I respect any place of god but never the institutions that run them.
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written by Raja Petra, February 14, 2008 09:19:41
Dear cahayailmu, please go here: http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/hypothetical

Then read the whole piece again.

p.s. English lesson for today by courtesy of MALAYSIA TODAY
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written by Raja Petra, February 14, 2008 09:26:01
Dear seek justice, that million-dollar question of yours will be answered in two weeks' time when the 12th GE election results come in. We will then see whether the non-Muslims reject PAS because they are scared shit of Islam or they vote PAS because they do not feel that Islam is a threat to their way of life. And what the non-Muslims do will all depend on how the Muslims conduct themselves. Since you hold fast to the Quran/Sunnah then read that part that says God will not change our fate unless we change it ourselves. God could not have made it any simpler and you do not need to go to Cairo or Medina universities to grasp what this means.
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written by Badaksumbu, February 14, 2008 09:41:17
It is only wise to understand religion before trying to be smart about specific Islam, Christian and so forth. Lots of zealots-narrow minded who only look through a pin hole instead of climbing mount kinabalu.They think by quoting the hadiths they are more correct than those who don't bother ..
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written by teo siew chin, February 14, 2008 10:11:45
Man is always free of thoughts and beliefs and is in total control of what is in his mind EXCEPT if he is drugged or hypnotised or otak rosak!

BUT you jeopardise that freedom the moment you expose your thoughts via your actions or words.
BUT silence do not earn you a place on the team!
And therein lies the dilemma.

Dear YM Raja Petra - you have always carried on exposing injustice, corruption and hypocrisy at risk of losing your liberty and good name. I am sure you will never be silenced despite it being a thankless task. You are to me a fine example of good, decent and brave man regardless whether you are a true Muslim or an adjusted one.

How we conduct ourselves is kinda like the story of 2 guys who were sentenced to be hanged.
First guy starting cursing, swearing and spitting at the executioner.
Second guy reprimanded the first guy and told him to keep quiet and not make trouble.

Are most of us like the 2nd guy?
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written by Semuaok, February 14, 2008 11:23:04
grant wtf China have to do with Malaysia here, and China atleast don't use God as and excuse to cheat, steal, and even kill. And just because I'm not the PM I cannot judge Badawi. F**king Moron.
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written by Tan Tan, February 14, 2008 12:31:31
I have a few friends converted to Islam and they loves the religion and their understanding of Islam is so different from some of my borned Muslim friends.

I always believe that if you really loves your religion, study it, understand it and not just performing the ritual of it.

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written by Rozlan, February 14, 2008 13:50:23
There are many good practising muslims out there..Go and find them Why take non practising muslims as an example.Of course we will find lots odf descrepancies These so called muslims are even worse enemy to Islam than the non muslims..Take the socalled imam and bilal of Masjid negara for example..They were elected to such rank because of their link with UMNO not because they were among the best practising muslims. Where did they go???.At least one of them had become UMNO henchman.A true pious muslims such as Almarhum Ishak Baharum were always in trouble with UMNO secular authorities and at the end had been sack for good..

Furthermore the source of example in Islam is the Prophet Muhammad SAW and his Companians.If anybody want to refer about Islam,these people are the best example for them ,,
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written by Sagaladoola, February 14, 2008 14:17:06
These days, whether everyone of any so-called institutionalised religion admit it or not, it can almost be concluded that the New Age Religion these days is Materialism with the worship of its God, Money.

Regards,
http://sagaladoola.********.com
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written by rhyder, February 14, 2008 14:55:13
written by SBennit, February 14, 2008 | 01:40:26
... and whenever I put it on. I get many unwanted help from strangers like you
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ok, sorry. the next time i want to help an old lady, i'll ask her for her name first. if it's you, then i won't help.

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written by talk2stop, February 14, 2008 17:55:53
Religion is a pain. It does not matter whether Islam, Hindu or Christanity. It tears family and friendship apart. Religion did not develop anything or reach for the sky. It is not important what religion you are in, the important thing is we need to have good humanity. Reading the Bible or the Quran 24/7 will not bring food to table and fill the fridge with goodies. If you read the holy books 24/7 and your tummy is filled by someone who work his/her guts out. I think GOD/ALLAH will prefer the hardworking lad than the idiot reading his biography 24/7.
If I am wrong God forgive me and have mercy on my soul.
Amen.
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written by Anti Jihadist, February 15, 2008 01:55:50
RPK rightfully says that Muslims should pursue and engage in good deeds to show the worthiness of their faith.

While RPK doesn't get into specifics as to what constitutes a 'good deed', I am fairly sure that this isn't one of them:

Saudi Arabia to execute woman for 'witchcraft'

BEIRUT, Lebanon - A leading human rights group appealed to Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah on Thursday to stop the execution of a woman accused of witchcraft and performing supernatural acts.

The New York-based Human Rights Watch said in a statement that the kingdom's religious police who arrested and interrogated Fawza Falih, and the judges who tried her in the northern town of Quraiyat never gave her the opportunity to prove her innocence in the face of "absurd charges that have no basis in law."

Falih's case underscores shortcomings in Saudi Arabia's Islamic legal system in which rules of evidence are shaky, lawyers are not always present and sentences often depend on the whim of judges.
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written by archie, February 15, 2008 02:13:44
Corruption perception index 2007: Singapore (No.4); Hongkong (No.14); Japan (No.17); Malaysia (No.43); South Korea (No.43); China (No.72); India (No.72); Saudi Arabia (No.79); Thailand (No.84); Egypt (No.105); Vietnam (No.123); Philippines (No.131); Pakistan (No.13smilies/cool.gif; Indonesia (No.143); Myanmar (No.179).

http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2007
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written by Anti Jihadist, February 15, 2008 03:07:46
I would like to suggest some other 'good deeds' that Muslims and Muslim organizations/governments can do, if they are sincerely interested in demonstrating to the world that Muslims and Islam are a genuine force for moderation, peace, and tolerance in the world.

1. A Council of Muslim scholars can produce the definitive "New Quran". Based on the original version, it omits all that Dark Age anachronistic stuff about stoning adulteresses, beating wives, beheading Kuffar, amputations, lashing, lying to unbelievers and Jews, the so-called sin of Apostasy, and eternal Jihad, and instead concentrates on the good bits about worshiping God, loving all his creatures, respecting our fellow-men, and being charitable to one and all. It will henceforth be the definitive religious text for the Faith. The "Old Quran" will be retained merely for its historic and poetic interest.

2. The Supreme Council of Imams can announce that, after a fourteen-century continuous war which it finally realized it would never win, a peace treaty has been finally concluded with the Kuffar, who would henceforth be known as "fellow humans". All territorial claims to the rest of the world have been dropped, specifically including Bali, Southern Spain, Southern Thailand, Southern Philippines, and Israel. Any acts of war or terrorism by individuals or communities will be punished by excommunication, banishment, permanent prohibition from entry to the Two Holy Mosques, and denial of burial in Muslim graveyards.

3. The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia can declare itself open to all religions. All faiths will be permitted to worship openly without hindrance. As evidence of its serious intent, they can allocate space in Mecca and Medina for the building of a Christian church, a Jewish synagogue, and Hindu and Buddist temples.

4. A travelling Muslim-sponsored exhibition, entitled "No More Lies", can go on a round-the-world tour (I suggest they start in Tel Aviv). It disavows all the previous lies espoused by the Muslim Ummah, including the classic "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is an authentic document" lie, the "4000 Jews got a phone call on 9/10 not to go to work tomorrow" lie, the "we don't know what nationality the hijackers were" lie, and the "Holocaust was a journalistic practical joke" lie.

5. Muslim charities can declare that henceforth, just like Western charities, they would help suffering people around the world, regardless of race or religion.

6. Muslim Imams throughout the world can begin celebrating "World Faith Day" by preaching that Islam was only as good as, but no better, than all other world religions, and that all were equally valid ways of seeking personal salvation.

Compare the fantasy Islam portrayed above, and the Islam of the real world, and you can see just how huge the gap is between the two.
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written by LcLy, February 15, 2008 03:32:00
Religion is a candle inside a multicolored lantern. Everyone looks through a particular color, but the candle is always there!

In Malaysia we have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love on another!
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written by emcube, February 15, 2008 13:10:23
Dear RPK,
i agree with you. We muslims should set good examples in our life. The good deeds we do should be for Allaah (lillahi ta'alaa) not for show. Whether the non-muslims will become muslims or not is not our reponsibility. It is left to Allaah to open their hearts to accept Islam as a way of life or not. Brother Yusuf Estes made supplication to God to show him the righteous path and Allaah did. He was sincere to God when he made that du'a (supplication). This is just one example. There are many more of the same nature.

For an imam and the bilal of the national mosque to take bribe is something very shameless of them. It is a disservice to islam. To my non-muslim friends, this is not from islam even though he was the imam. Definitely syaitan was (or maybe still is their leader).

rhyder,
i don't understand what are you trying to say. In islam we may declare our good deeds in the open or we may do it secretly. Allowed in any way you want it as long as you are sincere and do it for the sake of Allaah (lillaahi ta'alaa). To do it openly with an intention for others to follow is also encouraged. To do it secretly to just to satisfy yourself of your sincerity is also encouraged.

I fully agree with RPK on the good examples should be set by muslims. RPK have shown that example and may Allaah grant us all and RPK His blessings. My plea to our non-muslim friends, please do not get cheated/deceived by UMNO's agenda and strategies to frighten you all with islam.

VOTE FOR CHANGE.
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written by SUV, February 15, 2008 13:30:19
antijadist aah,i throw u a challenge..what's the source of every religion/faith including paganism?if u cant anwser,hah,terbuktilah u r a cacat smilies/shocked.gif
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written by rhyder, February 15, 2008 14:18:54
written by emcube, February 15, 2008 | 13:10:23
rhyder,i don't understand what are you trying to say. In islam we may declare our good deeds in the open or we may do it secretly.
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what i'm trying to say is that EVERYONE should do good deeds. normally god-fearing people (hindus, christians, muslims, etc) keep a very low-profile. whatever good they do is hidden. if someone does a good or bad deed, there's no need to ask what his religion is, because it has nothing to do with religion. religion is the means to an end, which is knowing God.

if you look for the bad in people, you will find it. i prefer to look for the good.
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written by Admiral Tojo, February 15, 2008 16:04:39
written by SUV, February 15, 2008 | 13:30:19
>>>antijadist aah,i throw u a challenge..what's the source of every religion/faith including paganism?if u cant anwser,hah,terbuktilah u r a cacat

If I can interject and answer, the source of all institutionalised religions are lies, deceit and ignorance.

Be free and not a slave. Get rid of religions.

Shalom
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written by ahmadbadrul40, February 15, 2008 19:47:27
Everybody has to agree that the Malays are the most unprogressive race in Asia. Majority of the Malays like short cut and are easily contended. And that is why, majority of them still votes for Badawi.
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written by teo siew chin, February 15, 2008 22:26:00
errr Admiral Tojo - methinks your answer is not the source but rather, it comes from the same origin (and origin is what I believe Suv meant, right?).

As to whether religions are lies, etc - whose to know? For the moment, they are the only anwers man get to hear if he so chooses. Until someone comes back from the other side to give a true report! smilies/wink.gif
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written by Tan SN, February 16, 2008 01:33:05
"I began to suspect that the 'cloth' they wore was merely a camouflage to fraud and deceive. This is not confined to just Muslims but is apparent in all societies and religions."

True, very true. Nowaday all it needs to take to be religious is parrot-talking what's the holy book said. Wear robes to be seen religious. Pray absent-mindedly to be ritually religious. ***Sigh***
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written by panca, February 16, 2008 03:19:31
Religions are based on beliefs and are meant to be a guide for good. BUT today as we see it twisted, overdoses, wrong prescription, etc,

The question is are they doing good especially when many minds becomes unthinking?

I can see a calmer mind of one that is not attached to mere belief but through understanding of living the humanness in self. For the reason of living, it is the wakefulness of our living in our self that makes us more reasonable people. It is more meaningful to live in that peaceful minded manner among human beings. You may want to consider your belief as a food but this can be 'ta pau' and consumed wholeheartedly at home while remain that wakefulness in self for humanness without losing it!
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written by SBennit, February 16, 2008 04:02:49
good one rhyder. smilies/grin.gif
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written by usurper, February 18, 2008 11:42:20
When Jesus was born there were no Christians, an Jesus was not a Christian! When Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) was born there were no Muslims and he was not a Muslim! When Lord Krishna was born, there were no Hindus and he was not a Hindu! When Buddha was born, there were no Buddhist and he was not a Buddhist!The existence of religion only came after the founders died. Each of these Founders of the truth only propounded the truth that was most suitable for that social order or disorder of that time. The followers then went on to institutionalize the propoundments of the day into a dogma so as to have better control and security for their beliefs. All these propounders talked about the Absolute Power called GOD or ALLAH from where they have sourced the 'truth' and passed it on to us mortals in a simplified form meant for that day of our life. Again a barbarian at that time would have percieved this 'truth' differently from the farmer or the nomad. After a few thousand years what do we get; a potpouri of religious truths never suitable and never real. GOD or Allah the all powerful, the greatest force ever does not need a Mohammad, Jesus, Buddha or Krishna to pass His truths as He could do it without intermediateries as Messengers, if He chose to. RPK you are absolutely right, as for me a religion is only a designer underwear which you choose to buy and wear if you like it and not one to impose onto others to wear. It's a personal choice made out of our immediate perception of fashion and lifestyle, which can subsequently change as we get wiser. No one should tell you that you cannot leave or join, belief or disbelief, a religion, as it is only a fashion statement for that lifestyle, not the absolute truth! As an example, the Muslim belief that one should remove the foreskin of your penis so as to be a Muslim. The Muslims call ALLAH the Greatest Creator on earth and yet violate the Creators greatness by removing the foreskin! Couldn't have ALLAH the Maha Besar created us without a foreskin? By all means remove it but do not make that GOD's law!
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written by Panca Indera, February 19, 2008 06:39:38
Dear Three Stooges
Admiral Tojo, Usurper and Semuaok

Ah! How “Blissful is Ignorance before the fall of Pride”

"Blessed is that man that makes the Lord his trust, and looks not to the proud, nor to those that turn aside to lies." (Psalm 40:4) "Talk no more exceeding proudly, nor let arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the Lord is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed." (I Sam. 2:3)
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And Admiral Tojo my man, that foreskin of yours is on your head , thats why you can’t find it!!! smilies/cheesy.gif smilies/cheesy.gif smilies/cheesy.gif

>> all God is the same shit.
Only shitbrain Semuaok thinks that way!
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"To sh## or not to sh##, that’s the question" - Sh##spear
Peace
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written by Vik, February 20, 2008 12:45:50
Just to point out a couple of errata, usurper said:


When Jesus was born there were no Christians, an Jesus was not a Christian! When Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) was born there were no Muslims and he was not a Muslim! When Lord Krishna was born, there were no Hindus and he was not a Hindu! When Buddha was born, there were no Buddhist and he was not a Buddhist!The existence of religion only came after the founders died.


Well, the part about Jesus and Mohammed holds water. However about Krishna and Buddha, here's what really happened:

Krishna:
Was never a founder or a Prophet. He is a diety of the Hindu relegion, one of the main 'Gods' if you will.

Buddha:
Was, we lets say the 'founder', but did not preach a religion. He merely preached teachings of how to live a pure life. From what I heard from a very wise monk in Burma, Buddha said that God is within you. You are your own god, and you must stay true to him, and keep yourself pure.

It doesn't really matter to me, but I thought that facts should just be set straight.

But, back to RPK's amazing article. Credit where credit is due, this will knock some sense into many narrow minded people, even if it lasts only a second. However, we live in a world where they will forget they read it and carry on with their crude way of thinking, simple because it is more comfortable, and it serves themselves better.

I feel like printing a few thousand copies of this out and handing it out smack in the middle of KL, but, then again, my family will never hear of me after that. UMNO Boleh! Ok, after saying those two words, I need to puke smilies/smiley.gif
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written by us marshall, February 20, 2008 16:17:01
the former imam of masjid negara is corrupted? i rest my case.
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written by dinozilla, February 20, 2008 17:34:32
Ever since I grown up...I already started to question about religion...
what are they, why they are here, why should I believe it...
I am from a Taoism family, have buddhist friends, and muslim friends, i read before bible, which is available freely in church.
to the point after all these, I had come to a point to conclude by myself that...
there may be God, but religion in this world is still carry on over by mankind...
and throughout whole history, there is tonnes of sign people modify the true history...who can prove "no" to information, tell tales from the religions...

Today, I believe in God, but I refuse to believe in any religion.
After all, they are not all true...not all false...
the most important thing is to judge yourself wisely, rather than believe blindly...
just like majority group whom blinded by the tilted ruling group.
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written by Panca Indera, February 21, 2008 00:11:39
ear TOJO
This time I’am going to be a gentleman to you.
I just checked your statements against two online sources to verify your “fact”. Both of them said that your kind of folks constitute about 12%-16% of the world population.
Seriously! you should stop visiting aididsafar.com and revert to the straight path.
So far you have only make a fool of yourself by your unfounded statements. People are laughing at you, but not saying it here to safe your air muka (Malaysian way).
I want to save your soul for yourself. Please don’t rubbish me yet. Take a long look at yourself in the mirror , then look into your eyes and ask this question.
"Do I really believe in all these things that I’ve been saying lately?
Is it said just to have fun or to gain attention?
Think! who is the Idol worshipper?
Go and take full ablution, put some nice and clean clothing/dress, find a quiet clean spot and pray facing God’s House that you called stones. Implore Allah to forgive you for your intransigence. He is Merciful and will forgive you. Don’t persist in doing what you are doing, because you will only make a bigger fool of yourself. This should be a lesson and learn from it please.

Open your heart to HIM, don’t listen to your head. Many people have big heads!

Waslam
Below are statements from the web that contradicts your so-called facts.
Please double/treble checks next time before posting.

1.Info on Wikipedia
The world's principal religions and spiritual traditions may be classified into a small number of major groups or world religions: the vast majority of religious and spiritual adherents follow one of Christianity (33% of world population), Islam (20%), Hinduism (13%), Chinese folk religion (6%) or Buddhism (5%).About 12% of world population are irreligious.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M...ous_groups
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christianity 33%
Islam 21%
Nonreligious 16%
Hinduism 14%
Chinese trad 06%
Budhism 06%
Primal Indigenous 06%
Judaism 0.22%
Sikhsim 0.36%
Others03%
TOTAL 100%

Source: http://www.adherents.com/Relig...rents.html
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written by Admiral Tojo, February 21, 2008 11:43:33
Ah Panca NO Indera,
so the statement that;
'The majority of the people will not belief without IDOL WORSHIP' is so true.

You do not get it do you? Worshipping Stones, Directions, Mullahs, Prophets are IDOL worship.

There is only 21% Stone worshippers in the World and yet they are the biggest nuisance. Bollocks to them.

Salaam
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written by Malaysiaputra, February 21, 2008 12:37:10
Make your own conclusion.

Raised From The Dead
Is it a medical mystery or a miracle? A South Florida man pronounced dead from a massive heart attack and then brought back to life. His doctor says the man was raised from the dead by a simple prayer. Seven's Louis Aguirre has the story.

Reported by:
Louis Aguirre

Producer:
Angela Caraway

Contact
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View all archived
7 News Features reports
WSVN -- Dr. Chauncey Crandall isn't your usual doctor. The world-renowned cardiologist is a man of medicine and science, but he's also a man of faith.

Dr. Chauncey Crandall: "If you come in with a problem into our service, we are definitely going to treat you with conventional medicine, but we are going to believe it too. We are going to attack it with conventional medicine, and we are going to attack it with prayer."

He calls himself the Christian physician because he prays with each heart patient he sees at his Palm Beach practice. The difference, he says, is dramatic.

Dr. Chauncey Crandall: "The reason I pray for people is because I found, early in my trained practice, that there were miracles, unexplained healings."

But even his strong faith could not prepare him for what would happen the day Jeff Markin walked into the Palm Beach Gardens emergency room.

Jeff Markin: "I drove to the Garden's Hospital, went in, took out my wallet and fell on the floor with a massive heart attack."

For 40 minutes doctors and nurses in the ER tried to revive him. When they couldn't get his heart started again they called for Dr. Crandall, who was doing rounds in the hospital at the time.

Dr. Chauncey Crandall: "As I entered the ER it was like a war zone. Here was this lifeless body on a stretcher."

The doctor couldn't do anything and could only confirm what everyone already knew, Jeff was dead. He had gone almost an hour without a heartbeat, and his body was starting to decompose.

Dr. Chauncey Crandall: "His face, his arms, his legs were pitch black with death. I said, 'Let's just call the code, let's end it because there's no life left.'"

As Dr. Crandall turned to leave, he says he got another call this time, a call from God to pray.

Dr. Chauncey Crandall: "A voice told me to turn around and pray for that man. I looked down at the body, and I said, 'Lord, what can I pray for this man? He's gone.' All of a sudden these words came out, 'Father, I cry out for this man's soul, if he does not know, you raise him from the dead.'"

Despite protests from doctors and nurses who were preparing Jeff's body for the morgue, doctor Crandall insisted they shock him one more time.

Dr. Chauncey Crandall: "So that doctor came over with those paddles and blasted that man and, all of a sudden, instantly a perfect heartbeat came up on the monitor. The stomach started moving, the chest started moving. This man started breathing on his own, and I said, 'This man has been prayed for, he has been brought back from the dead by prayer in the name of Jesus.'"

Louis Aguirre: "So where was Jeff during all of this? He believes he left his body and crossed over to the after life."

Jeff Markin: "I was actually standing in the back of the funeral home, and I came to realize that this was my funeral.

But, in the middle of sitting alone in darkness, Jeff says a figure suddenly appeared to him.

Jeff Markin: "There was a figure that identified himself as Bob, and he was going to make sure that everything was going to be OK. I'm figuring that was my guardian angel. At that time, a very peaceful feeling and very relaxed feeling came over me, and then he said he had to go and, the next thing I know, I woke up in my daughter's arms."

He woke up to a second chance, one that can't be explained by medicine or science. As Dr. Crandall puts it, the only answer is divine intervention.

Dr. Chauncey Crandall: "You are speaking to a scientist, a cardiologist, someone who loves medicine. I've never, ever seen this. There are always people that do not believe these events, and I will just tell them that it did happen. It was a real story, a real life that was restored."

Jeff wasn't exactly a believer before that day. He didn't regularly attend church or read the Bible, but this experience has made him believe there is a higher purpose for his life.

Jeff Markin: "I feel like maybe I am supposed to be a messenger. I want to get the right message across that miracles do happen."

A miracle that brought him life after death.

Jeff Markin: "I'm so happy I have a second chance."

Louis Aguirre: "Jeff says he is now attending church mainly because he wants to figure out why he was chosen for a second chance at life."
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written by anak kenyalang, February 21, 2008 13:52:55
I would like to repeat what I have said before, probably in other article on this sie, quoting from Richard Dawkins book; "The God Delusion", 'on man delusion is insanity and mass delusion is called religion'.
If you can't rational things and can't find cogent evidences as written in all the holy books..they called it "faith" just belive in it even if it is not logical. AND that's what has been happening since religion was introduced.
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written by usurper, February 21, 2008 14:04:14
To all,

I am here to only share my opinion and not here to force it onto others. I shall never quote from the scriptures of any religion as it is my opinion that it is all psuedo-truths. The crux of the matter is, again from my understanding , RPK has stimulated us to think, and to think to fight the common enemy; the corrupt, leadership,the religious zealots and the many fools who have left their brain idling for so long. To all, let God grant us the Serinity to Accept the Things we cant change, The Courage to change the things we can and the wisdom to know the difference! Quoted from a poem by Reihhold Neibuir.
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written by NancyL, February 22, 2008 03:21:57
When prophet Muhamad s.a.w (pbuh)died....there were muslims denounced there Islam....they lost faith....they lost their belief when the prophet died....but the prophet have told his people before he died that who loved Allah ...it will be forever as he is infinity....but who loved him....he will be gone....as he will weathered like any other humans and die......from this story....we know we must not be influenced by the things that surrounded us...that is humans...because they are not infinity and will make mistakes...maybe and foolishly over and over again....some humans are like that even if they declare themselves as religious or imams........because of this people a person might leave islam????...that is really not worth....if that person doubt about Islam...then the only thing quranteed is to go back to Quran....because thats the mukjizat or miracle of the prophet that still exist till now ....God himself guaranteed its originality....I shed tears to Muslims who denounced their religions because of these culprits who smeared Islam...our faith and religion is not in their hands....it is in our own hand and God ....
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written by NancyL, February 22, 2008 04:48:23
Salam PancaIndera....Just let Tojo be anyway.....as Prophet Muhamad s.a.w said...your religion is your religion and mine is mine.....just let them...its a waste of energy debate with that type of people...their mind is in different dimension.....this type of people if we debate more with them its like you knocking your head on the wall...becus no matter what you said...they just cant figure it out...waste of time and energy just let him....thats just words....
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written by Admiral Tojo, February 22, 2008 11:09:52
So Pancha No Indera your true colors has come out. You are indeed a suicide bomber wannabe. WE ARE WATCHING YOU!!!

'To you your way and to me mine - Lakum deenukun waliyadeen'.

'When GOD alone is mentioned, they wreath in anger, when others are mentioned alongside GOD, they rejoice.'

Pancha NO indera, in no way do you have any authority to talk on behalf of GOD. Bollocks to you!

Shalom/Salaam
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written by anak kenyalang, February 22, 2008 15:34:49
I beg to all religious zealots, be you Muslims, Christians and or whatever religions you profess under the burning sun..."lets the gods fights their own war", we don't have to tear each other to pieces and/or calling each other names, and doing it on his (gods) behalf. If all religions are religion of peace...then you must allow all human-being, whatever colors or creed they may be, have the choice to choose their own convictions and follow their own heart including religion. Whether I/they shall be admitted to heaven or hell is god's decision and not yours.
AND to the zealots, ["if the only reason you and your kind admonishes or having the thought to kill those who wishes to opt-out of their religion is to gain your god's approval and rewards or to avoid his disapproval and punishment",.. that's not being in god's grace or morality, that's just sucking up, apple-polishing, looking over your shoulder at the greatest surveillance camera in the sky, or the still wire trap inside your head, monitoring your every move, even your every base thoughts,...and hoping for rewards, then your are a very sorry lot indeed"]...Michael Shermer in the 'The Science of good and Evil'.
Salam/shalom
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written by Vik, February 22, 2008 16:15:40
Tojo is an idiot. And above that Panca Indera is an even bigger one who thought Tojo's comment actually warranted a damn reply. If what you believe inside yourself is true, and nothing can change it, why get intimidated? You must be scared. Or should I say, insecure. Shut up about all the:


We must expose him to the public, boycott him in all dealings. If we do not, we will be punished by Allah for NOT defending His religion.


I think he is happier to see you in peace, not bothered by what others have to say. He's probably thinking that you are scared because you feel insulted and intimidated. He's probably really pissed off at the lot of you. And NancyL, whether you're a real nancy or not, you are an idiot as well for spurring things even further.

Can you guys at least leave on of RPK's posts untouched by your religiously fueled comments?

Huh... That'll be the day! Shameful. Absolutely shameful.

Discussing faith is acceptable, but denouncing one and other, just says that your character is flawed. Concentrate on bigger things. Inflation. ****in' Global warming. The escalating price of Health Care right here in Malaysia. Having a total ass for a PM, who can't say anything other than 'Believe in Me', who has accomplished nothing good over the past few years, except get laid.

p.s.
Tojo:
You do not get it do you? Worshipping Stones, Directions, Mullahs, Prophets are IDOL worship.
There is only 21% Stone worshippers in the World and yet they are the biggest nuisance. Bollocks to them.


Are you insulting Muslims, or Idol Worshippers? Either way, I'm insulted as a human being. Please use the internet to surf porn, and stay off this website.
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written by Admiral Tojo, February 22, 2008 20:07:06
Vik,
I just tell things the way they are. Idol worship is Idol worship, inclusive of idolising stupid politicians who are absolutely corrupted. Why do you feel insulted if you are an idol worshipper for I never feel insulted when you call people like me kafirs etc. It works both ways. You shove your faith in my face and I will shove my opinion back. Payback time my friend, all these lies that are attributed to GOD, mostly knowingly, will come back to haunt you and others like you. I will be your biggest nightmare for as long as you are asleep and in ignorant bliss under the hypnosis of those who disbelieve, Mullahs included.

Just an idiot like me can rile up people including you. Wow!

Anyway VIK, you do not own this website. The only person that can tell me to FO is RPK, and so far he has not. So bollocks to you too.

Shalom/Salaam
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written by NancyL, February 22, 2008 21:45:13
Hi Vik....whether I am NancyL or Nancy Abdullah...why you bother...this is a liberal website...infact...I dont mind if you change your name Vik to Lingam or Ahmad or Chew...but i think that doesnt gmaour enough isn't it?
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written by NancyL, February 22, 2008 21:48:50
Sorry what I meant was ......"doesnt gmaour enough"= doesnt sound glamour enough
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written by mr kool, February 23, 2008 11:36:49
guys..please go to islamonline for more information about islam either is you are a muslim or not. if you a muslim, and happen to be confused about islam, seek knowledge from the scholars in the islamonline.if you are a non muslim, and have qustions about islam, also go to islamonline.

****** "Sentencing adulterers to death, islamonline safiya" . ctrl F, type "safiya" :

First of all, I would like to bring to your attention that the authority for Muslims in Islam is not the practice of Muslims and Muslim States. Imam Ali (Allah be pleased with him) once said: ‘We know people by al-haq (the truth) and we do not know al-haq by people.’ This means that we should evaluate people by how strong their adherence and commitment to the true path and that we should not evaluate any path by those who are affiliated with or practice it. "

****** "Is the Qur'an a Guidance for Mankind? Isabelle ". then ctrl F, type "isabelle" :

1. But the Qur'an is just ONE BOOK. And it is not the work of any human author. It is literally the Word of God revealed by God to His prophet. And the whole of the Qur'an has been preserved intact, without any omission or addition."

2. Qur'an Chapter 39: verse 41:

"Verily We have revealed the Book to thee (the Prophet) in Truth, for (instructing) mankind. He, then, that receives guidance benefits his own soul: but he that strays injures his own soul. Nor art thou set over them to dispose of their affairs."

Qur'an Chapter 6:verse 155:

"And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy"

****** "What Makes Someone a Muslim ? bruce germany". ctrl F, type 'bruce' :

I will refer to a very famous hadith (Prophetic narration) that every Muslim knows very well (hadith Jibreel): A man came to the Prophet (PBUH) in his mosque and in front of a number of the companions, and asked him: What is belief? The Prophet answered: To believe in God, His Prophets, His Books, His angles, and destiny, its good and its evil. The man asked: What is Islam? The Prophet answered: To say that you bear witness that there is no god but God (Allah) and Muhammad is His messenger, to maintain prayers, to give charity, to fast the month of Ramadan, and to visit the House (in Mecca) in pilgrimage.

THIS is what makes someone a Muslim. In terms of faith: the above are the "six pillars of faith" as scholars called them. And in terms of practice: the above are the "five pillars of Islam."

So, Bruce, if you believe in ONE God (that is He is not and has never been "embodied" in a human or an object, has never had a "son" in any real sense not allegorically, and that He created this universe), and you believe in ALL of God’s prophets, including Moses, Jesus, and Mohammad, and in the message that holy books received by these Messengers call for, and that God created what He called angels and what He called destiny (we know this because God mentioned that in His books), then .. you are Muslim!
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written by mr kool, February 23, 2008 11:37:55
****** "What Makes Someone a Muslim ? samson semere". ctrl F, type 'samson' :

Yes. God exists! What is the evidence? The evidence is everything around us. Who made them and organized them in that orderly, systematic, and beautiful way? I know that this "evidence of creation" as they say in philosophy, has many "logical" counter-arguments. But there are "logical" counter-arguments to these logical counter-arguments.

So, without getting ourselves in a philosophical debate, I will take the way that the Quran tried to prove the existence of God, which is closer to our human nature and further from all of our superficial and very limited "logical analysis."

For example,God in the Qur'an says what means:

"Do they not look at the sky above them - how God have built it and made it beautiful and free of all faults? And the earth - God have spread it wide, and set upon it mountains firm, and caused it to bring forth plants of all beauteous kinds, thus offering an insight and a reminder unto every human being who willingly turns unto God. And We send down from the skies water rich in blessings, and cause thereby gardens to grow, and fields of grain, and tall palm-trees with their thickly-clustered dates, as sustenance to people .. " ( Qaf 50:6-11 )

****** "What Makes Someone a Muslim ? islamonline,Muhammad " .ctrl F, type "Muhammad":

This issue is related to the difference I am trying to stress between matters of faith (which make somebody Muslim or kafir), and matters of practicing Islam (which make somebody a good Muslim or a misguided sinner).
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written by mr kool, February 23, 2008 11:39:55
****** "Ask About the Qur'an & Muhammad, islamonline Matthew". ctrl F, type "Matthew" :

The whole of the Qur’an was revealed to Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), while he was alive. He was the Last Prophet of God, and after him, there was no other as the title makes it clear. The verses of the Last Testament were not revealed at one time; they were revealed piecemeal at different times. But the whole of the Qur’an was revealed fully to the Last Prophet before he died. It was he who dictated it to his scribes, and they wrote it down. After writing, the written text was read out to the Prophet who verified it and found to be perfectly accurate. And his followers preserved the written down Qur’an intact, without the slightest change.

Moreover, the whole of the Qur’an from cover to cover as it were, was learned by heart by thousands of Muslims from the time of the Prophet to the present.

we cannot get out from islam just because islam is not implemented very well or the implementers are not practicing what islam has taught us or simply because other muslim are not doing islam syariat.

one of rukun islam is 'percaya to quran'. if we fail to believe even one of these rukun islam, we are considered not islam anymore. my reminder (reminder is telling again what is true but advice is sth that can be accepted or rejected; consultation) to raja petra is," please istighfar to seek Allah forgiveness"

i am more concern on apostasy or understanding in islam than politics
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written by mr kool, February 23, 2008 11:41:22
sorry for typo

IT MUST BE "ctrl F" not "ctrl F"
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written by mr kool, February 23, 2008 11:53:48
it is not typo i reckon.

the comment cannot show 'plus' sign

so, it must be ctrl 'plus' F, type....
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written by mr kool, February 24, 2008 06:06:03
to Panca Indera, what is above all; tauhid or muamalat or islam laws or fiqah or else. tauhid comes first above all.

that is what i meant by "i am more concern on apostasy or understanding in islam than politics"

i never say that islam should be separated from politics.never!!!

after problems regarding misunderstanding in islam are solve, then concentrate on other issues.

if we do not believe in God but we still pray, fast, go to perform hajj, are you telling me that is ok?

i must first instill tauhid in my heart, so that when i do muamalat or islam syariat , i am not in a condition of was-was in performing what Allah have asked me to do

to panca indera, we have same opinion indeed.it is just a matter of different degree of language used.

excerpts from various article in the islamonline are to answer all the questions or misunderstanding of islam in raja petra mind and heart. i hope he will read my comment and Allah give him hidayah again.

if someone murtad, it is s/he fault and also fellow muslims' fault too. that person fail to understand islam fully (maybe as a result of being ignorance) and muslims around that person also fail to teach that person about islam.

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written by Admiral Tojo, February 24, 2008 09:21:54
Pancha No Indera,
This I learn from Quran,
1 The Arabs are Stone worshippers and biggest hypocrites and disbelievers (9:97)
2 They will be condemned again by the Prophet that received the Quran (25:30)
3 Muhammad does not exist in Quran. The Muhammad you people follow is a myth created by the disbelieving Arab minds.
4 The Arab Religion of STONE WORSHIP is never ISLAM the DEEN as per Quran.


So stop peddling lies and attributing your lies to GOD. Worship your STONEs if you must, in disbelieve. I know, many know the bollocks of it all.

Salaam/Peace
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written by Admiral Tojo, February 24, 2008 09:29:19
Pancha No Indera,
Examples of Arab incorporated lies in Quran;
3:144 - No Muhammad but there is Muhammadun - an adjective.
33:40 - No Muhammad but there is Muhammadun - an adjective, singular.
47:2 - No Muhammad but there is Muhammadin - an adjective, plural.

How come when you translate an incorporate Arab lies, adjectives become proper nouns? Are the Arabs the Author? Oh by the way the name of the Surah 47 is also not Muhammad but Surah Muhammadun.

For your info Ammo, Muhammadun - The Praised One and his name can be anything which we do not know till today.

other lies by the Arabs,
Adamah - humans who could reason, and not Adam and eve as copied from the Bible.

Abraham and his tribe were never in Mecca to build the temple. check out 32:3, 34:43-44. Before the Quran, the Arabs never received previous warnings nor were they aware of any scriptures. They were and still are Pagans. They too never followed the Quran as in 25:30. So there Ammo, I would not want to be Arab if I were you. They are the biggest Munafeequns - hypocrites.

Pancha No Indera, your Arab created GOD is never my GOD, the GOD that is closer to me than my jugular vein, omnipresent, omniscient and the Lord of ALL the Universe.

Salaam
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written by NancyL, February 24, 2008 20:01:10
In earliest history of Islam....most of mohammad family opposed him because he changed their way of life....that was worshipping idols.....mohammad was an orphan...both his parents died when he was very young.....and his uncle was the one who looked after him more than he did to his own son....but did you think that
these people created mohammad...and that it was just a MYTH????????????....his uncle died as a non muslim....he didnt convert eventhough mohammad shed tears and doa to Allah...but he didnt convert....you see what I mean...if you understand from this story????????????.....there are millions infact trillions of damn fool who think these arabs created mohammad....but from whom?....people who themselves didnt even became muslim????....thats why Allah didnt make all muslims....to show to people like you in the future....that muhammad is not the creation of Arabs...and anyway he was from the descendant of Abraham...who was a jew...not ARAB......by the way can you elaborate further...what do you mean by Germanic as in 'That Stone, stop worshipping it'
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written by NancyL, February 24, 2008 20:16:48
and Tojo can you mentioned to me what actually does it mean....'When GOD alone is mentioned, they writhe in anger, when others are mentioned alongside GOD, they rejoice'.
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written by Panca Indera, February 24, 2008 23:07:42
Dear Tojo,

You freely quoted from the Muslims holy Book to argue your points
Refer below:
This I learn from Quran,
1 The Arabs are Stone worshippers and biggest hypocrites and disbelievers (9:97)
2 They will be condemned again by the Prophet that received the Quran (25:30)


For you to say you learned from the Quran, you must believe and agreed with the words of the Quran, right?

Yet you stated, quote “Muhammad does not exist in Quran. The Muhammad you people follow is a myth created by the disbelieving Arab minds.” even though Muhammad’s name are specifically mentioned in six chapters and hundreds more when addressed as You (IPA: /ju/) is the second-person personal pronoun (subject case) in Modern English.

Now looking at the two statements above, where in one you agree with the Quran and the other you disagree with it. The only possible conclusion is, you are a very confused person who suffers from memory lapses. Or you level of learning is not even rudimentary.

How can a person truly learned from the Quran that he condemns as inconsistent and inaccurate. Refer below.
3 Muhammad does not exist in Quran. The Muhammad you people follow is a myth created by the disbelieving Arab minds.
4 The Arab Religion of STONE WORSHIP is never ISLAM the DEEN as per Quran.
Examples of Arab incorporated lies in Quran;
3:144 - No Muhammad but there is Muhammadun - an adjective.
33:40 - No Muhammad but there is Muhammadun - an adjective, singular.
47:2 - No Muhammad but there is Muhammadin - an adjective, plural.

How come when you translate an incorporate Arab lies, adjectives become proper nouns? Are the Arabs the Author? Oh by the way the name of the Surah 47 is also not Muhammad but Surah Muhammadun.

Tojo, you condemn the Arabs for being the biggest Munafeequns - hypocrites and you said they They were and still are Pagans. Why then are you using the Arabic Quran and quoting verses from it?

If you believed and convinced in the hypocrisy and unreliability of the arabs and accused them of being the authors of the Quran, therefore rubbish! Why are you using it as a reference?
Does'nt make sense!
Tell me something, which Naval College conferred you, your Admiralship?
You must stop eating lotus, you lotus-eating stargazer. Come down to Earth and live in reality, will you.

Sorry I was angry with you earlier, now I realize who Tojo really is in his ranting, He will find friends in Hospital bahagia.
But you must stop insulting religions Tojo, you will need it later where you are going.
Panca No Indera
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written by Admiral Tojo, February 24, 2008 23:09:39
NancyL.
Who do you mention alongside GOD in your sahadah??

I repeat;
'When GOD alone is mentioned they writhe in anger, when others are mentioned alongside GOD they rejoice'.

The question is who this 'they' are???

'That Stone, stop worshipping it' is germanic in sentence construction, no?

Salaam
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written by Admiral Tojo, February 25, 2008 11:58:58
Dear NancyL,
I know who I am and what I have to do as a decent human being in his World. I do not need the Arabs and their deceit to tell me this. You know in some countries, as Holland for example, they want to ban the Quran? They say it is the same a mein kampf, the book of the nazis. Have you ever wondered why? It is because of ALL the Arab incorporated lies in ALL current popular translations of Quran. When you say KILL when there is no such thing in Quran, you will have to twist and turn to try and justify. There is no such thing as moderate followers of the Arab Religion when the ultimate aim of the Arab incorporated lie is to KILL those who do not believe as them. In Quran, there is absolute freedom to believe, believe in the Quran that is. There is no such thing as forcing the issue. Qital, Qatalaa, Qatiluu do not mean KILL or shades of it. It means CONFRONT, confront the untruth (as I am doing) and if they do not listen to you, get up and leave. See the vast difference in the message?

Being kind to your parents, being kind to the orphans, not cheating, not lying, not killing, being equitable when you trade, not being a bigot and racist, these are a few of the lessons in Quran. Do you need a Religion, any religion, for you to realise all of this? When you wake up in the morning, it is already preprogrammed in your BIOS.

So NancyL, do keep on reading and hopefully one day you will be free of this mental bondage, put there by the Mullahs, Priests, Rabbiis, Monks and what have you.

Shalom/Salaam
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written by Admiral Tojo, February 25, 2008 16:02:21
Pancha No Indera,
you said;
>>>If you believed and convinced in the hypocrisy and unreliability of the arabs and accused them of being the authors of the Quran, therefore rubbish! Why are you using it as a reference?
Does'nt make sense!

I said the Author, not the Arabs are the author. See your hypnosis is obvious. Now you think the Arabs are GOD. The Arabs lie about the Quran. As an example, the words 'Safar' and 'Marwa', the Arabs say are the 2 stone pillars in their annual ritual. Safar is from the word 'Saf' meaning line, aline, get in line and similar meaning whilst 'Marwa' is from 'Umr' life, give life, make alive and words of similar meaning. No STONES involved in the Reading. Instead of aligning (Safar) yourself to the teachings of the Quran and living it (Marwa), you spend time as told by the Arabs to traverse two STONE outcrops. No, Pancha No Indera, the Arabs are far from understanding the language of Quran. In fact the disbelieve in the Quran.

Salaam/Shalom
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written by Admiral Tojo, February 25, 2008 16:04:44
Correction: In fact they (the Arabs) disbelieve in the Quran.
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written by Panca Indera, February 25, 2008 22:06:08
Dear Tojo
>>I said the Author, not the Arabs are the author.
Tell me, is the content of the Quran 100% truth from Allah?

Looking in your statements, you disagreed with some of the meanings of the words and the commands of the Quran like drink beer(alcohol ) is Not haram and Pork is not haram.
Otherwise you would not have said publicly quote, “
2. Your beer tastes excellent OrdinaryMan. Especially good with roast pork. Bismillah.”
3 >>You do not drink beer, you do not eat pork, you do not know how to enjoy GOD's (NOT your STONE God) blessings on earth.

Can you explain why you encourage beer drinking and eating pork, When the Author clearly said to avoid them in the Quran?

On what historical evidence that you justified Muhammad did not exist ?
You still have not answer my previous questions even though Muhammad’s name are specifically mentioned in six chapters and hundreds more when addressed as you .

You accused the Arabs: -
>> The Arabs are far from understanding the language of Quran
So you say you know Arabic better than the Arabs themselves, whose mother tongue is used in the Quran refer below,

[12.2] Surely We have revealed it-- an Arabic Quran-- that you may understand.
[26.195] In plain Arabic language.
[41.3] A Book of which the verses are made plain, an Arabic Quran for a people who know:
[48.29] Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers,
>>Examples of Arab incorporated lies in Quran;
3:144 - No Muhammad but there is Muhammadun - an adjective.

You said. “In fact they (the Arabs) disbelieve in the Quran.” If they disbelieved in the Quran, why would they preserved till today?
Surely they would want to destroy it right?

Man, the way I see it you are way out off depth using your arguments. But then you don’t see it do you.

Saraf and Narwah are the names of two small hills that has become part of the haj ritual which you do not comprehend.
Where do you go for your haj and waht would be the ritual, or is it not required according to your beliefs?
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written by NancyL, February 26, 2008 09:39:07
To TOJO,
I think you are confused....be simple dont think too complex....

Let me explain to you this as simple and as detail as I can...MOST PEOPLE THINK QURAN is just to explain what you said....
"Being kind to your parents, being kind to the orphans, not cheating, not lying, not killing, being equitable when you trade, not being a bigot and racist"
.....but to me that is not the case....we all know that our brain is limited in creation....and yet we still have not come to a stage of fully used our brain 100%...infact it is well known fact that most of us used its capability of barely 10%..to me QURAN is Science, Politics, Philosophy, History, Mathematics, Geography,and all I can think of...it is a guide of a complete way of life....for example....
1)rights in the inheritance...a complex mind will say Islam not fair in giving shares between man and woman...where women and vice versa will always have half in share...a simple mind will say...we must be try to be advanced in fraction and maths and find about it further....
2)then come the direction of kiblat for praying...a complex mind will say...isnt it too complex and burden for a muslim to pray as he has to know the kiblat direction and he will further think "what a stupid religion"...but a simple mind will say...hey lets make an instrument that will enable us to know the direction of kaabah where ever we go....and also to study the stars in the sky that maybe can help us with direction
3)same as Sharia Law....do you think it is just about cutting hands and punishment of death ....for me you cant just follow it blindly....when someone want to used this law...everything must incorperate with it....the whole system must be created in such away that this law can be done...but the truth is none of the muslims are smart or genius enough to know how to make this system a success yet...so muslims should do more and more research as how to make this a success....that is to make a perfect system of politics....
4)and in the quran said all the sickness in this world has cure except old age....then a simple mind will not give up in finding cure on any sickness including AIDS as there will be cure

YOU SEE TOJO QURAN TO ME IS EVERYTHING....there are millions of reasons that I can tell you...but unfortunately...that will go on and on in a long list...I dont have enough place to write it all.....well try to think SIMPLE in everything ....that helps alot...TOJO maybe we will talk again in other TOPIC that RPK might write in the future....BYE
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written by Admiral Tojo, February 26, 2008 10:32:31
To Pancha No Indera,
>>>>Can you explain why you encourage beer drinking and eating pork, When the Author clearly said to avoid them in the Quran?

The Author never said such things. The Arabs lied and said it. The advise on intoxicants is to avoid the excess (the Satanic side of it). There are benefits and nowhere in the verse does it say 'HARAM'. I am advised not to eat rotten meat that I see - wa lahmal khinzir and not PORK as what the Arabs say.

>>>
[12.2] Surely We have revealed it-- an Arabic Quran-- that you may understand.
[26.195] In plain Arabic language.
[41.3] A Book of which the verses are made plain, an Arabic Quran for a people who know:

Mt comment without Arab corruption;
Root word ein ra ba - beloved, in the Asyrian langguage it is western (as in langguage of the West). In dictionary - expressive. Arrabiyin - In the langguage that you can best express yourself. Nothing to do with the Arabic Langguage.

26:195- In the language you can best express yourself.

>>>With Arab corruption;
[48.29] Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers,

My comment; Muhammdun is the Apostle of Allah..... The Praised One is the apostle of Allah......
No names mentioned here....
Other examples of Arab incorporated lies in Quran;
3:144 - No Muhammad but there is Muhammadun - an adjective.

>>>You said. “In fact they (the Arabs) disbelieve in the Quran.” If they disbelieved in the Quran, why would they preserved till today?
Surely they would want to destroy it right?

The Arabs never referred to the Quran. ALL the practises of the Arab Religion is from their myths and fairytales and NONE from Quran. There is NO ritual Prayer, No fasting, No pilgrimage to Arabland, No religious tax payment, No Syariah law in Quran. The Arabs have managed to destroy ISLAM the DEEN and presented the Arab Religion which is on turmoil as we speak. The Arabs never preserved nor protected the Quran, they DISBELIEVE IN QURAN.

Oh yes, Abraham took the challenge - The Haj but never made any pilgrimage anywhere. Read All about it in adididsafar.com.

To NancyL,
>>>YOU SEE TOJO QURAN TO ME IS EVERYTHING

Then why don't you follow the teachings in Quran instead of Arab lies??? ALL that you practise is NOT in Quran. Why then do you do it? unless of course you do not know and follow the Arab lies blindly, blind faith so to speak.

'I have made the Quran easy to learn/remember, is there anyone who wishes to learn'.

The key word here is EASY. Why do you wish to complicate the issue NancyL??? Complex this complex that. Have you ever questioned why you need to be kind to your parents? Just Do it and NOT talk about it for example.

So you see Pancha and NancyL, there exist people like me in this World, in fact plenty of us, who simply call a spade a spade and IDOL WORSHIP as just that i.e. IDOL WORSHIP. No need to loose your cool over it.

Salaam/Shalom
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written by NancyL, February 26, 2008 19:09:55
TO TOJO...LAST BUT NOT LEAST...NO COMMENT smilies/cheesy.gif smilies/smiley.gif...BYE
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written by Panca Indera, February 28, 2008 09:01:24
Dear All

My deepest and sincere apology for the mistake," the Great Me who translated the Quran".
It was a typo error. actually it was to be the Great Men.who translated.

TO ERR IS HUMAN
mY HUMBLE APOLOGY.
ASTAGHFIRULLAH.
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written by Admiral Tojo, February 28, 2008 18:13:44
Pancha No Indera,
>>>highly qualifed scholars???

EEerrr Who gave the accreditation or certificates?? Egyptians?

Get real man.

Salaam

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