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Even Deeper into Despotism PDF Print
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Tuesday, 30 June 2009 22:24

By batsman 

The danger of going too deep into anything is that there is a possibility that you may find out it has turned into something else. The same happens here as despotism turns into democracy. 

Despotism and democracy must have their social and economic bases. They are not just concepts devoid of any underlying supporting structure. 

I offer here the idea that democracy is only possible with wealth and not just wealth but fairly widely distributed wealth justly acquired through skill, perseverance, sweat and tears (and consequently widely acquired knowledge and creativity). 

The oldest form of democracy, tribal democracy is based upon the equal contribution (wealth) from each tribal member. Since wealth as we know it has not yet been accumulated by civilizations at the level of tribes, the contribution was in terms of labour power and human skills. Each tribesman was therefore treated more or less equally by their peers and valued as such. The strongest, wisest and most skilled tribesman enjoyed the highest prestige, but he could easily be overcome by 2 or 3 or his fellows and therefore did not lord it over the others too much. 

The problem arose when tribes went to war and started accumulating assets such as slaves, weapons and land. Simple wealth was being created and the wealthiest often became the chiefs. By extension, as tribes grew, the largest slave / land owner became the king and biggest despot. 

In feudal England, the feudal lords were often more powerful than the king if they banded together. This created the conditions for the king being forced to sign a contract with the feudal lords called the Magna Carta. In a sense, this created some sort of democracy for feudal lords, in the same way that democracy existed for slave owners in ancient Greece as well as for the merchants of the city states of Italy during the Renaissance. 

If wealth is fairly widely distributed and no one is obscenely wealthy, democracy is possible. Unfortunately, if wealth is too finely distributed, there is no one person who stands out. Conditions are created for endless quarrels, plots and counter-plots which in effect makes the community weak and disunited if an external enemy appears. 

Ancient Rome which engaged in endless wars was a case in point where the republic of equals was not sustainable and the senate was forced to choose an overall temporary dictator in times of war. It came to pass that some leaders or generals (Julius Caesar comes to mind) were so successful that they stood heads and shoulders above the rest. This created conditions for the rise of a despot in the form of the emperor. 

So it is that democracy is a very natural tendency for humans and not at all a rare and precious concept. It is only rare when the world is divided into a few very rich technologically advanced countries exploiting a large number of poor backward countries. Democracy therefore exists only in the few rich countries while despotism is the fate for the poor majority. 

It is no accident that democracy is healthier in the Scandinavian countries because wealth is more widely spread and distributed. There are few giant enterprises and their economies comprise a very large number of small and medium businesses and industries while any big companies are well controlled by the state. 

Britain and the US in contrast are actually poorly functioning democracies by comparison. Britain in particular is where Big Brother is alive and well. It is probably the state where the citizens are most spied upon and lied to - contrary to propaganda that the communist or ex-communist countries are where Big Brother lives. This is because they have the biggest and most powerful companies and where the rich-poor gap is the widest among developed nations. 

In fact their companies such as Shell are so powerful and so influential that they are often stronger than sovereign governments. Recently they suffered a law suit (which they settled out of court) in which they were accused of “paying” corrupt authorities in poor countries such as Nigeria to murder protestors. A similar case exists with a big US banana corporation operating in S. America which stands accused of paying para-militaries to get rid of trade unionists and industrial trouble makers. 

It is also no accident that the US and Britain have some of the highest prison populations per population. Unfortunately since their populations are relatively rich and relatively rebellious, they practice most of their despotism on the weaker people of poor countries. So it is that in spite of all the hoo-haa about exploitation of child labour, it still exists with young children still picking cocoa for a few pennies a day. Think about it while you enjoy your bar of chocolate or banana split. 

The most nauseating thing is that they use human rights and the torch of democracy to oppress poor countries, ruin local culture and economies, and impose foreign ideas and values as well as dominate tottering economies with giant multi-nationals. 

By definition, poor countries do not have the economic basis for a viable democracy. Most have despots ruling them because most of them have been colonies in the past and have had most of their wealth removed forcibly. Not only is there a tradition and culture of violence and brutality, when independence is won, what existing wealth remaining is cornered by the political party that gains independence. This means that the rich-poor gap is even more pronounced with bureaucrats and their cronies lording it over the poverty-stricken masses, often with the connivance of big mining or agricultural multi-nationals. 

Under such conditions, “introducing” democracy in these countries is a recipe for disaster. A country such as Iraq where “democracy” was forcibly introduced has been knocked back into the middle ages. Its people are at war with each other, suicide bombs are exploded with horribly unrelenting frequency and basic amenities are almost non-existent, not to mention basic human rights. The people have been made even less fit for democracy and poorer by far than they were under their old local despot. 

In addition despotic US intervention and occupation has allowed Al Qaeda to run riot in Iraq where none were allowed any chance of existence by the old (now executed by kangaroo court) despot. This either means the US is incompetent in their war on terror or is secretly / uncaringly encouraging terrorists for motives of their own. 

Sadly the same fate threatens countries such as Burma, Iran, North Korea and Pakistan, which must surely make their despots totally paranoid and psychotic about the hangman’s noose. Sadly, even the fact of an unfriendly US (not to mention any black operations if existing) is enough to set back any natural development of the people for democracy. 

What about Malaysia? I think we are doing very well in our historical development given the circumstances and especially so since March 2008. We are not quite yet a rich developed country. Our accumulation and distribution of wealth is more advanced than most other 3rd world countries, but it is hampered by racial complications and domination by foreign capital as well as bureaucratic corruption. As such our rich – poor gap is relatively huge even compared to those of 3rd world countries. 

Consequently, our democratic viability is still poor with masses of poorly educated or semi-literate population topped by a thin layer of well exposed and articulate metropolitan literate class which seems to get thinner with time rather than thicker. Year after year, the government proves itself to be the strongest force in the economy as well as the biggest employer and has no serious challengers. 

In addition our wealthy classes are rumoured to be weak and lacking in integrity. They are said to defend their wealth by corrupting and paying off officials and gangsters than with institutional or legal methods. If this is true and if they are weak in defending their own wealth as well as dependant on the government for contracts and permission to make profits, it stands to reason that democracy will also not be strongly defended. Democracy in Malaysia needs to find champions made of sterner stuff – maybe even a despot or two to clean up the corruption first. 

These days, our PM seems to be enjoying very friendly telephone chats with the US President. Our PM as we well know can be a very charismatic and seductive person if he wants to be. I wonder whether growing US influence and interest will be beneficial to the natural development of democratic forces in Malaysia. What do you think?

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written by Milo, June 30, 2009 23:00:49
I wonder whether growing US influence and interest will be beneficial to the natural development of democratic forces in Malaysia. What do you think?
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US interference? Under Bush, I am not too sure. He is a nut case. Under Obama, it should be good news. It would be more of involvement that interference. Our current PM is certainly more capable than the last one we had, but he is too heavily tainted in the eyes of the people to be effective. In any case, the best news would be when DSAI takes over as PM...he is the best leader we have for the moment. He is not a despot and should be able to deal with our problems within a democratic setting.... provided if PAS don't start stiring trouble with the Islamic state tingy.
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written by Milo, June 30, 2009 23:11:49
Let's not have a fixed and blinked view that everything bad is US. For the last eight years, the US was run by the most idiotic president in its country history. He started the way in Iraq against all advice. With a change of leadership, now there is good reason to have some hope that things will change. Give Obama a chance before we start judging.
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written by Milo, June 30, 2009 23:22:32
Democracy is analogue, not digital. There is a wide range of the types of democracies we can choose from and Malaysia can certainly evolve one that suits us best. But having a good democratic system is only one aspect; the other aspect is we must choose a leader who have the talent to make it work. Najib has some potential if not for the heavy taint on his reputation and the bully-blind UMNO behind him. PAS is out with its Islamic State concept. That's left only a Pakatan under DSAI...at least for the moment, that's the best we have.
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written by educationist, June 30, 2009 23:31:11
We have to work with what we have.
One phone call does not make Najib Obama's buddy.
Of course, given the change agenda Obama is linked with, I'll like to think his influence , if any, will be for Najib to respect peaceful dissent and not to misuse the instruments of state for his own ends.
Ya, I know. it's hoping for too much really.
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written by AsamLaksa, July 01, 2009 00:10:40
O, Batsman, what are the alternatives?

Should poor countries exclude foreign relations and be left to the whims of their despots? Like Bhutan? Want to migrate there?

Should some troublesome countries be left alone to export extremism? Like Taliban ruled Afghanistan? Guess where the fighting is at the moment, another Islamic country called Pakistan.

What would you suggest for Zimbabwe?

The West for all their hypocrisy, are at least doing something. You have to admit they have moved forward so much so that some countries would not have survived without funds from them. The rest of the world play deaf and dumb. What do you see OIC or ASEAN doing to sort out international problems?

You do not expect change in a day, a year or even a decade yet instead of truly addressing the issues that the hypocrite West brings up and doing it better to put the West to shame, you would rather see, hear and speak no evil. Come on, put the West to shame by becoming a shining example. Don't just moan and find excuses.

Back to the first line, O, Batsman, what are the alternatives?



By the way, Najib the "seducer" from Malaysia --> Rosmah. Sarkozy the short from the country of Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys --> Carla Bruni.
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written by Loh, July 01, 2009 02:49:42
///In addition our wealthy classes are rumoured to be weak and lacking in integrity. They are said to defend their wealth by corrupting and paying off officials and gangsters than with institutional or legal methods. If this is true and if they are weak in defending their own wealth as well as dependant on the government for contracts and permission to make profits, it stands to reason that democracy will also not be strongly defended. Democracy in Malaysia needs to find champions made of sterner stuff – maybe even a despot or two to clean up the corruption first.///--batsman

When the NEP was in progress and the country on the path to destruction, Petronas came along to help out. The earnings of Petronas allowed the despot to misuse it for ensuring perpetual hold on power, through legalised corruption. But oil in the country is running out within the next five years. Petronas’ earnings outside the country are still substantial, as much as domestic oil revenue. Can the earnings abroad be sustainable when the government in which Petronas operate learn the trade? Without Petronas bankrolling UMNOputras indirectly through government handouts, it is anybody’s guess if they would be willing to share poverty.

The despot thought that racial discrimination would keep them in power, and it has proven correct for five decades. But the excess of institutionalised discrimination has also driven out some two millions of its more industrious and resourceful population, some of them could be correctly classified as the brains for knowledge based economy. When earning by Petronas ceases to support the government it has been doing, the government would collapse together with the society. The population would welcome Resident Advises as in the 19th century, and start all over again in 1Malaysia, representing one religion and one race.

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written by Malaysian Heart, July 01, 2009 06:45:55
Batsman,

You wrote here http://mt.m2day.org/2008/content/view/23696/84/:
"So yes, if Malaysia descends into chaos, there is a good justification for a despot to try and save the situation but as of today this is still a moot point."

First, let's revisit the relevant definitions of the various terms we use:A) Despot
- from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/despot:
1. A ruler with absolute power.
2. A person who wields power oppressively; a tyrant.

- from http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Despot:
"...absolute sovereign whose rule is not restricted by any constitution."

B) Oppress
from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/oppress:
1. To keep down by severe and unjust use of force or authority

Your justification of despotism when 'Malaysia descends into chaos' is insufficient. To justify that something with the risk of serious negative consequences (since you & I both dislike despots) is necessary in a certain situation, one needs to show that there is no other solution with lesser disadvantages. In the case of chaos, there already exists a provision for democratic governments to declare a "State of Emergency". From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_emergency:

"A state of emergency is a governmental declaration that may suspend certain normal functions of government, alert citizens to alter their normal behaviors, or order government agencies to implement emergency preparedness plans. It can also be used as a rationale for suspending civil liberties. Such declarations usually come during a time of natural disaster, during periods of civil disorder, or following a declaration of war (in democratic countries, many call this martial law, most with non-critical intent). Justitium is its equivalent in Roman law.

In some countries, the state of emergency and its effects on civil liberties and governmental procedure are regulated by the constitution, or a law that limits the powers that may be invoked or rights that may be suspended during an emergency. In many countries, it is illegal to modify the emergency law or constitution during the emergency."


We can see how a state of emergency is very different from a despotism. So given the above, can you still conceive of a situation where despotism can be justified as a suitable form of government for Malaysia?
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written by Hakim Joe, July 01, 2009 08:50:05
I guess one can say that “money makes the world go round” but declaring wealth distribution as the means of democratic success is too generalized. I agree that it might present itself as one of the primary conditions but there exist too many salient factors to assign a single entity as just cause for determining whether it works or not.

Too much democracy (as illustrated in the US and UK) is the root cause of its troubles. It sets a precedent whereby all its inhabitants have a say in how the nation is being governed. Too little democracy alters the form of governance into an autocratic state whereby the executive command becomes law. The amount of inhabitants within the boundaries is yet another contributing facet of democracy. The more residents, the more complex the system is gonna get. Scandinavia’s model governance can be attributed to its small Nordic population. Owing to this fact, the distribution of wealth is more even.

As for Malaysia, the long road to true democracy lies within grasp with the next general elections being the determining factor. Whether this momentum can be achieved (or not) rest solely in the hands of its voters. Another comprehensive BN victory would plunge the concept of democracy into the abyss.

Despotism can never work in a multicultural society. It inhibits growth to only one race and creates a certain recipe for civil unrest.

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written by Malaysian Heart, July 01, 2009 10:19:12
Batsman,

You wrote:
Yes, if state of emergency does not work and does not bring Malaysia out of crisis...


What is there in despotism that can bring a country out of crisis that a state of emergency cannot?
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written by Hakim Joe, July 01, 2009 10:51:56
Human rights, civil liberties, race and religion, distribution of political powers, legal mandate to rule, existence of royalty, laws and legislations, impartial judiciary and taxes to name just a few.

BTW, 80-20 is NOT 100-0.

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written by densemy, July 01, 2009 10:54:38
"I offer here the idea that democracy is only possible with wealth and not just wealth but fairly widely distributed wealth justly acquired through skill, perseverance, sweat and tears (and consequently widely acquired knowledge and creativity)."

OR... you could look at it that egalitarianism of wealth and everything else can only come about within the structure of a democracy

Its no wonder islam and democracy are so much at odds...
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written by densemy, July 01, 2009 10:57:21
Hakim Joe... TOO MUCH DEMOCRACY ... is a concept only possible in Asia where everyone wants to control everyone else

There is no such thing
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written by Malaysian Heart, July 01, 2009 11:16:36
Densemy,

I agree with you; there can never be "too much democracy".
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written by Hakim Joe, July 01, 2009 11:43:42
Look fellas,

The concept of “too much democracy” is a misnomer of sorts. Of course there is no such thing because there is no defining line to delineate just what constitutes too much or too little. I have adopted this expression to illustrate that the people in both the US and UK are afforded a higher degree of democracy as compared to the rest of the world. It does not mean that these occupants can do anything they desire but the fact remains that their rights are protected in a manner alien to this country.

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written by densemy, July 01, 2009 11:47:24
Batsman... you are a very bitter and a very biassed observer

You are a product of that great hater Mahathir. He started with a massive chip on his shoulder about the British and his hatred grew to include everything to do with the west (he hated anyone who dared criticise Malaysia and alienated any nation which appeared to be doing better than Malaysia)

The combination of your Mahathirism and your muslimised Islamism has caused you to make statements that are so obviously biassed that I think its time you rethought some of your philosophies
Example:

"The most nauseating thing is that MUSLIMS use human rights and the torch of SALVATION to oppress poor countries, ruin local culture and economies, and impose foreign ideas and values as well as dominate tottering economies with THEIR OBSCENE WEALTH." (My words in upper case)

If Islam is to be your choice of religion, then I suggest you go back to the basic principles of Islam ( which are no different from those of Christianity...and the evil west) Forget about all the hate filled bullshit that Muslims have attached to those basic principles and develop a set of practices that best demonstrate those principles.

I think you would come up with something very close to the 'Western" concept of democracy which you so openly despise
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written by Malaysian Heart, July 01, 2009 12:26:02
Batsman,

It's fine to offer ideas, but for them to be credible, you need to support them with evidence, either in the form of factual premises and sound reasoning, or references to expert opinions based on them. Sadly, in this article you have not done so, and here is why I believe so:

Your arguments in this article seem to be built like this: you propose an idea, then "prove" it by simplistically assuming that people will or have behaved in certain plausible ways. In doing so, you ignore other possibilities & explanations. Mere plausibility cannot be accepted as truth; indeed, it is possible to construct plausible scenarios to "support" any position. After that, you assume that your first idea has been proven, and you propose another idea based on the first one. Thus, your conclusions (implications, rather, because you never seem to state your conclusions clearly) are based on a chain of faulty logic, over-generalization & simplification.

(cont'd)
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written by Malaysian Heart, July 01, 2009 12:27:31
Here's just one example of your dodgy logic. You wrote:
"Democracy in Malaysia needs to find champions made of sterner stuff – maybe even a despot or two to clean up the corruption first."


This is a classic example of the use of "false choice". From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma:
"The informal fallacy of false dilemma (also called false dichotomy, the either-or fallacy) involves a situation in which only two alternatives are considered, when in fact there are other options. Closely related are failing to consider a range of options and the tendency to think in extremes, called black-and-white thinking. Strictly speaking, the prefix "di" in "dilemma" means "two". When a list of more than two choices is offered, but there are other choices not mentioned, then the fallacy is called the fallacy of false choice, or the fallacy of exhaustive hypotheses."


In your argument, you have given us the false choice that the "champions" of democracy and good governance must be either the wealthy classes or the despots with "sterner stuff". You have ignored the possibility of other Malaysians leading the fight for democracy. You claim that we have "masses of poorly educated or semi-literate population", but you did not show why they won't mobilise. Is that an assumption that is reasonable to make without evidence? Even worse, you have ignored the possibility that a despot, thanks to his absolute power, might very well exacerbate the problem of corruption rather than clean it up.

(cont'd)
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written by Malaysian Heart, July 01, 2009 12:28:30
Even your argument as to why the wealthy Malaysian will not support democracy & good governance, starts of with rumour: "In addition our wealthy classes are rumoured to be weak and lacking in integrity". Hardly a good foundation to base an argument on, wouldn't you say? Then you go on to assume, without any evidence, that even if this is true now, that it cannot change; again, a false choice fallacy.

Based on such unsound reasoning, you have seen fit to recommend despotism for Malaysia.

Here's another:
"It is no accident that democracy is healthier in the Scandinavian countries because wealth is more widely spread and distributed." Couldn't it be that in Scandinavia wealth is more widely spread and distributed because their democracy is healthy? There is nothing in your article to prove this one way or the other. What you have done is an example of "cum hoc ergo propter hoc", or "correlation does not imply causation". From Wikipedia here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C..._causation

Here's another:
"By definition, poor countries do not have the economic basis for a viable democracy." By whose definition? Any references to that effect?

Batsman,
It takes more than a good grasp of English grammar & vocabulary to put together an honest argument; it's more important that one is dedicated to finding the truth through intellectual rigour & integrity, which means eschewing the use of dodgy logic & sophistry (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sophistry). You obviously have grammar & vocabulary in heaps. Are you commited to the other requirements as well?
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written by Malaysian Heart, July 01, 2009 12:33:20
Hakim Joe,

Thanks for clarifying
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written by batsman, July 01, 2009 13:21:18
Hakim joe –
Human rights, civil liberties, race and religion, distribution of political powers, legal mandate to rule, existence of royalty, laws and legislations, impartial judiciary and taxes to name just a few.


As Malaysian Heart would argue, does democracy create your "salient factors" or do your "salient factors" create democracy?

Let me argue it in another way and spell it out for you. Do you agree that the more wealth and power is able to be concentrated, the more there is the possibility of a despot seizing power? Poor people have no money – they therefore don’t even enjoy any respect. How can they then be treated as equals?

In a society where there is great disparity in wealth, power automatically concentrates in a few hands. If you want to have democracy in a poor country, poor people have to be respected as equals. Is this possible? Especially with people like you?

It therefore stands to reason that democracy is only possible in rich countries where the disparity in wealth is not great. Is this argument simple enough for your mind to grasp?
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written by batsman, July 01, 2009 13:25:56
Densemy - Looks like you are intent on bringing up Islam whatever the topic. Could it be that your bitterness and hatred is even greater than mine?

At the same time you seem to suck up to the US as a champion of democracy. While they have laws and checks and balances in the US itself, there are none when the US deals with non-citizens and foreign countries. Isn't this the setting of the worst despotism?

BTW I don;t hate the US. I only hate its foreign policy.
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written by batsman, July 01, 2009 13:32:33
Malaysian Heart - wow! Looks like I have to read all that you said in greater depth before I can answer. In the meantime, no, there are no gurantees that a despot can solve a crisis any better than a state of emergency can. However, I like to say that by your own definitions which you trawl out of dictionaries, a despot has no limitations and has full power. A state of emergency is declared by the existing authority. If the people have no more respect for the existing authority, it is likely that a state of emergency will not work either. A despot with full powers and without limitations look like the best alternative compared to a slide down to oblivion.

BTW I never said that despotism is recommended for Malaysia. Why do you accuse me so? Even your questions are moot and I have qualified my answers as moot. Is this how you argue? By putting words in other people's mouths and then proving they are wrong? Cheap, cheap!
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written by Rhan, July 01, 2009 13:43:39
batsman,

I think you are a communist. smilies/grin.gif
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written by Sagaladoola, July 01, 2009 14:08:33
Democracy in Malaysia needs to find champions made of sterner stuff – maybe even a despot or two to clean up the corruption first.


Batsman, maybe you can tell me what happens if the despot manage to clean up the corruption , and after a while becomes the Most Corrupted himself?

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written by batsman, July 01, 2009 14:09:08
Rhan - Densemy thinks I am Taliban. Milo probably thinks I am just an arsehole. TQ for your opinion. heeheehee.
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written by batsman, July 01, 2009 14:19:17
Sagaladoola - I am not a prophet. I can't tell the future. However given historical record as well as what I wrote in my opinion piece, a very likely scenario is what happened in russia and china - people become secure and comfortable, sense that the despot is getting corrupt himself and then they opt for capitalism.
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written by Malaysian Heart, July 01, 2009 15:02:49
Batsman,

You said:
BTW I never said that despotism is recommended for Malaysia. Why do you accuse me so? Even your questions are moot and I have qualified my answers as moot. Is this how you argue? By putting words in other people's mouths and then proving they are wrong? Cheap, cheap!


These are your own words from this very article:
Democracy in Malaysia needs to find champions made of sterner stuff – maybe even a despot or two to clean up the corruption first.


Is that not an assertion by you, that Malaysia would benefit from the rule of despots? Do you deny typing those words? Is this how you argue, by saying something then denying it? If so, we have even more reason to doubt your integrity.

For the record, each of my refutations of your arguments has been based on your own words, taken verbatim from your articles or comments. Kindly show, with appropriate quotes, where I have put words in your mouth, then refuted them.
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written by batsman, July 01, 2009 15:06:11
Malaysian Heart,

You - “It's fine to offer ideas, but for them to be credible, you need to support them with evidence, either in the form of factual premises and sound reasoning, or references to expert opinions based on them.”

Me - Are we back to the logic thingy again? Are you Renoir in disguise? As you said – I offer ideas. Whether people want to think about them or not is a matter for their own interest. Even your own very logical mind cannot dispute the fact that an idea is not wrong even if it is not backed up by evidence, references etc, etc. or are they wrong simply because no evidence or reference is offered? By your standards I am guilty of not following academic procedure. OK I plead guilty… so??? If you think they are not up to standard, you don’t have to read them. Why try and mark them like a lecturer trying to mark a student’s term paper? Sheeesh! Are you some sort of despotic lunatic lecturer?

You - “"Democracy in Malaysia needs to find champions made of sterner stuff – maybe even a despot or two to clean up the corruption first." This is a classic example of the use of "false choice"”.

Me - Do I offer a choice? I am offering a choice only if you think there is democracy in Malaysia. Otherwise it will be one despot following on the heels of another. This is not a choice since in my opinion, the wealthy classes have no backbone in Malaysia to fight for democracy. So you think there is a third force? Are you angry because I have ignored them? I actually wish there is a third force, but if it exists, any change will then be a revolutionary change. As Rhan seems to imply – only communists think about this possibility.

You - “Couldn't it be that in Scandinavia wealth is more widely spread and distributed because their democracy is healthy?”

Me - Chicken and egg question. However if you say the egg comes first, then you are communist stooge. If you say the chicken comes first, then you are an imperialist stooge. Take your choice. For me the economic base argument makes more sense.

You - “"By definition, poor countries do not have the economic basis for a viable democracy." By whose definition? Any references to that effect?”

Me - Back to the academic thingy? It’s my definition. The whole write-up is the basis for the definition. If you don’t like it no need to read it. But pls don’t try and mark it like a lecturer marking a term paper. If you feel compelled to dispute it, please do so by saying why it is wrong, not by complaining I do not give references.

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written by batsman, July 01, 2009 15:08:56
Malaysian Heart -
Democracy in Malaysia needs to find champions made of sterner stuff – maybe even a despot or two to clean up the corruption first.


You took the above to mean I recommended despotism for Malaysia??? Heeheehee! Read again please.
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written by Rhan, July 01, 2009 15:59:37
Democracy is one idealistic system. It provides us the delusion that we are in a position to choose our government but the result always indicates otherwise. Malaysia and Singapore is a democratic country, however we have the same government for last 50 years, no difference from Communist China. American keep on changing government almost every four years, shorter time than changing sleeping partner but policy remain alike since WW2, keep on searching high low for evil. India boosted their democracy values until the French philosopher start to curse their revolution but no one understand why Indian can’t choose who to be their husband and wife.

Maybe, I say maybe only, the best polity is where people could make choice and accept responsibilities for themselves the choice they make. For an example, the peasant Chinese decide to kick out KMT. But of course some will continue to mutter this is undemocratic, but is there a rule saying that democracy must through election every four or five years?

Don’t hehehehe, I know, not think, you are a communist.
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written by Hakim Joe, July 01, 2009 16:10:37
batsman...hee...hee...hee... you are on your own now-lah!!!

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written by Malaysian Heart, July 01, 2009 16:21:50
Folks,

Would you help Batsman & I resolve a difference of opinion over the meaning of one of his sentences?

Does this line written by Batsman:
"Democracy in Malaysia needs to find champions made of sterner stuff – maybe even a despot or two to clean up the corruption first."

qualify as a recommendation of despotism for Malaysia?

If you believe yes, please vote agree, if you believe no, vote disagree.

If the majority disagrees, I will happily retract the word recommend, and rephrase my point.

For your reference, this is a definition of "recommend" from here:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/recommend


recommend
Verb
1. to advise as the best course or choice
2. to praise or commend
3. to make attractive or advisable

Please also read whatever definition of "recommend" Batsman provides if he so chooses.
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written by AsamLaksa, July 01, 2009 16:36:20

Asamlaksa - The US is not everything. Given your great intellectualism, can't you think of any alternatives yourself apart from sucking up to the US? How about some national dignity and finding our own path by relying on our own people? Instead of surrendering our people both to economic and cultural domination? Do you have such a low opinion of yourself in spite of your great intellectualism?


And attacking my character helps your cause? I think it shows you have run out of ideas on this issue.

Look who's more insecure and lack of confidence, you and your dear of being dominated by outsiders, or me who tells you to put the West to shame by becoming a shining example.

I am not a fan of the USA or the West generally. However I take note of their good and bad. I want to emulate their good and do not want to repeat their bad. I am not seeking for every country to be a copy of USA, UK or any other country. Each nation and society have their own characteristics, each can learn good things from others.

What I am fed up of is using culture as an excuse not to move forward. For example equal rights to women. Many who oppose it claim that their culture is threatened by the liberal free thinkers. They miss out the point as to why is there a need for inequality in the first place. Even the West are newcomers in this respect and there is still inequality such as in regards with salaries between sexes. However what the West is doing is to actively seek to address this while those in the "East" defends their "culture". Another example are modern laws on race discrimination.

There is nothing to suggest that implementing the good learned from the West or any other country for that matter will result in being dominated or lose your cultural identity. Whether you get dominated or not, depends on your politics and whether you lose your cultural identity or not depends on whether your culture can last the test of time where let's face it, culture is always changing.
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written by densemy, July 01, 2009 17:30:09
Batsman... yes, I do bring up Islam because as an outsider I can see how much everything in this country is influenced by Islam or muslims... I cant differentiate between the two because muslims are the products of Islam

And unfortunately for Malaysia all the aspects of Malaysian society which by any assessment are wrong are usually associated with muslims and hence Islam

I dont hate Islam. Its as good or as bad as any other religion I can think of. But I am appalled at the ways that muslims manipulate their religion to suit their own personal agendas and they way they manipulate their peers in the name of Islam

But its typical of your hatist version of Islam that you should accuse me of hating your religion

As far as I am aware I have never promoted the US as the upholders of democracy, but you have to admit they are doing a much better job at it than Malaysian are.

I have no more liking for US foreign policy that you do. But I dont go to desperate extremes and blame the US for everything that has gone wrong in Malaysia

As I suggested... look for your answers closer to home. Malaysia still has the remnants of a civilised nation that the Brits bequeathed you. Develop your own standards that apply to everyone regardless of their religion instead of doing what you are told by an outdated set of dogmas. Look for your answers at home rather than blaming everyone else for your shortcomings
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written by Malaysian Heart, July 01, 2009 18:48:10
Batsman,

You said:
"...no, there are no gurantees that a despot can solve a crisis any better than a state of emergency can. However, I like to say that by your own definitions which you trawl out of dictionaries, a despot has no limitations and has full power. A state of emergency is declared by the existing authority. If the people have no more respect for the existing authority, it is likely that a state of emergency will not work either. A despot with full powers and without limitations look like the best alternative compared to a slide down to oblivion."


The leaders of a true democracy would not be personally "offended" just because people did not respect them during a state of emergency. What is required of the people is not is that they respect the authorities, but that they respect the just laws, that they (the people) themselves (via democratic practices) have instituted for use during emergencies. The fact that they collectively approved the laws will help engender respect for it, and not exacerbate whatever crisis that are going through. However, just like laws during normal times, breaking them will attract just punishment. To suggest that a state of emergency will lead to a "slide down to oblivion" is again an attempt to force a "false choice"; support despotism or suffer oblivion.

A despot unconstrained by law, may act to quell the crisis in an inhuman & unconscionable way. Throughout history there are ample examples of this. Sabotage? No problems, just imprison & execute women & children everytime there is an incident. Can't get information on dissident leaders? Easy, just use torture. Where would you draw the line Batsman? Or do you believe that any atrocity is justified in an emergency? Is that your "best alternative"? It was for some despots. If you believe that controlling an emergency by committing atrocities is wrong, then I suggest that a lawful state of emergency is what is required.

Having a despot, with full powers and without limitations, & acting unjustly & oppressively, will not inspire respect, but fear & hate. Ultimately, this may prolong the crisis as the oppressed people, even if they were not the cause of the initial unrest, may take up arms against the despot.

So, again I ask you, can you still conceive of a situation where despotism can be justified as a suitable form of government for Malaysia?

BTW, I stand by the definition of despot that I trawled (as you put it) from dictionaries. If & when a different meaning or connotation is required, I will show, with reasons, why it is different & distinguishable.
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written by batsman, July 01, 2009 20:59:32
Rhan - I am curious to know what type of communist - Bolshevik, Maoist, Trotskyist, Anarchist, Social Democratic, any other?
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written by batsman, July 01, 2009 21:00:35
Hakim joe - I have always been on my own. Haven't you noticed?
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written by batsman, July 01, 2009 21:33:59
Asamlaksa - Since colonialism, no colony has had the opportunity to develop naturally. What makes you think there is a shining example of a poor country that is able to survive competition with the rich countries?

Why do you need a guaranteed model and shining example? After all your intellectualism you still need a guaranteed model? Why not just follow the guaranteed model - what is the use of intellectualism then? As a hack writer for the rich and powerful?

Even though there may not be a shining model of a poor nation successfully competing with the rich nations, there are plenty of examples of nations trying to make do and retain their identity. Iran is a good example. We could learn quite a bit if we did not have any intellectual high noses which are after all brown in colour from sticking into US backsides.
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written by batsman, July 01, 2009 21:40:06
Densemy - Since when have I blamed the US for all that has gone wrong in Malaysia? That is reserved for UMNO. I blame it for many things that have gone wrong around the world. The US has done better in democracy than Malaysia? Only because it is filthy rich. This is what I have been arguing all along. Democracy is only for the rich. As for the influence of US in its foreign policy, it has acted as a despot for quite some time now. This also confirms my argument. When the rich meet up with the poor, the rich will act as despots.
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written by batsman, July 01, 2009 21:48:19
Malaysian Heart - Fine with me - the readers can respond with their understanding of what I wrote. In fact I am rather curious myself.

Why are you so insistent on a moot question? Is this some trick to force me to defend despotism? I have already said I dislike despotism personally. I also do not accept your argument that a state of emergency can solve problems created by loss of confidence in government. You seem to know everything that can happen when the world is in uproar - how people react when in crisis, etc. Why don't you learn a page from your own logical reasoning. What makes you able to predict emergencies and crises like a prophet? Your arguments seem to be based on your ego. I don't accept that.
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written by Sabahfan, July 02, 2009 00:37:42
MOHAMED RAFIQUE MERICAN MOHD WAHIDUDDIN... has been appointed New vice president Kewangan for TNB...

he was holding lots of post in private companies before...

Is this man related to the Mericans who was suing RPK?

can anybody enlighten on this???
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written by AsamLaksa, July 02, 2009 01:37:40
What is this romanticising about natural development? It's fantasy. Those who are slow will get taken over if they have any value. This goes on throughout history. The colonists are in it for gain. The countries which are left alone to "naturally develop" are left behind. Do show me which naturally developing country you want to follow.


Why do you need a guaranteed model and shining example? After all your intellectualism you still need a guaranteed model? Why not just follow the guaranteed model - what is the use of intellectualism then? As a hack writer for the rich and powerful?


What more nonsense is this??? I ask you to lead others and you talk about following others. When are you going to get into your head that there is still the opportunity to lead? There is no need to copy anyone. However there is a need to learn from others' rights and wrongs so that you can avoid screwing up. Is that so hard for you to understand??? It's not a new idea, TDM via his Look East policy suggest emulating Japan and South Korea for progress while keeping the unique Malaysian identity hopefully to be a leader within ASEAN. This came about in conjunction with the Buy British Last policy.

Iran a shining model? Perhaps a shining model of institutionalised paranoia. Let me just give you a little advice, to know how good a country is, take a look at how they treat the minority. This is because there will always be a minority and if you ar a minority stuck in an intolerant country, then good luck, dude.

Also note your paradox of a poor country successfully competing with the rich. Of course there are countries which started poor or lowly and are now rich or much richer such as South Korea, Japan, China, Singapore but you chose... Iran??? I have no doubt that Lebanon, Iran and Iraq (they were doing quite well less than a century ago) can be develop successfully but there is something holding them back - instability. Yeah, they may appear stable for decades but it doesn't take much to spark internal troubles that will derail all progress.



Look, Batsman, I have posted twice above and both of your replies sidestep the points I made. I'm a bad dancer but you are like a dancer flaying arms and legs oblivious to the beat. It's just like your replies to many others, you are not participating in a discussion but rather hopping around and taking sucker punches. It's not that you do not have valid points, it's that you are so fixed in your warped ideas that you lost a large portion of your reasoning abilities.

You can get away with it because this is just MT. Try publishing your ideas above in a respected journal/publication and see what you replies you get.
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written by renoir, July 02, 2009 03:25:05
Malaysian Heart wrote:
> What is required of the people is not is that they respect the authorities, but that they respect the just laws, that they (the people) themselves (via democratic practices) have instituted for use during emergencies. The fact that they collectively approved the laws will help engender respect for it, and not exacerbate whatever crisis that are going through.]]

Indeed, an important reason for the democracy we have today is that it's the best form of government for the ruling class. The easiest way to manage a country is to let citizens think that they're not only free to express their opinions, but that their opinions do count in the governance of the nation. But what happens when the democratic government does something that the vast majority of the nation disagree with? In such a situation, not only laws could be enacted to control dissidents, but more important - since we're talking about a democracy - mass propaganda is needed to, in the words of Noam Chomsky, "manufacture consent." An example is WW1, when Woodrow Wilson went back on his pledge not to enter into that war. We can imagine the reaction to that flip-flop as Americans, ranging from Joe Public to a State Assemblyman (Eugene Debs), actively resisted the government's "Espionage Act." That Act, of course, had little to do with espionage, as anyone who had a different opinion about America's participation in the War could be arrested and thrown into jail. The corporate-owned mass media had a field day scaring citizens into compliance, reporting a former secretary of war asking dissidents to be shot, and editorials encouraging Americans to spy on fellow citizens. A 1917 New York Times article wrote: "It is the duty of every good citizen to communicate to proper authorities any evidence of sedition that comes to his notice" (p 360, A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn).

As mentioned, besides the practical acts of coercion, it was necessary to brainwash the public, and here we'd what could possibly be the modern world's first state-sanctioned propaganda department: a Committee on Public Information was set up by experienced journalist George Creel. Under his leadership, wrote Zinn, the Committee sponsored 75,000 speakers and gave 750,000 speeches in 5,000 cities and towns (p 355).

Readers interested on how "consent" could be achieved in democracies can read Edward S. Herman and Noam Chomsky's book "Manufacturing Consent", published by Pantheon Books.

LChuah
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written by renoir, July 02, 2009 05:08:48
Now that we've seen an instance of how democracies could be "managed", let's touch on the contradictory nature of America's founding. On the one hand, it was largely an uprising by the wealthy. On the other, many of the founding fathers were highly literate and knew more about Greek democracy and political theories than most of us at M-T. Knowledge, as Plato rightly opined, is the food of the soul, and it's clear that those who wrote the revolutionary documents and the Bill of Rights were nourished by the diet of democracy. Nevertheless, class interest was never far from their minds either, and it wasn't surprising that in the Declaration of Independence, Native Americans were called "savages" (an excuse to take their lands) or that blacks weren't included among people who were "created equal." And while people like Jefferson and Madison, not to mention the irrepressible Patrick Henry, did prize liberty, most are concerned about - as someone here suggested - "too much democracy" for the masses. Fear of the masses ran through the entire discourse concerning the rights of man, to the extent that that personification of Liberty, Thomas Paine, was often disliked and avoided soon after the independence he'd helped so much to achieve. The Founding Fathers, generally, were afraid of "mob-ocracy." One consequence of this fear was the setting up of the Electoral College, which could overturn the results of popular franchise.

Jefferson's vision of democracy was basically arcadian - something that's suitable for a rural, largely agricultural state. He, like many during his time, probably would find it hard to imagine the complexities of the modern city, not to mention the country as a whole. One reason for the birth of Greek democracy was the small, often isolated city states - their very size allowed citizens to get together and thrash out their ideas. It was precisely this frequent airing of opinions that made rhetoric an important subject ("the greatest in human affairs, and the best" - Gorgias) and a manifestation of participatory democracy. Modern countries, however, can be very massive, and to many people the only way to govern such huge entities is through representative democracy.

But here we run into problems when representatives could be bought by the rich and powerful and voting becomes largely symbolic. When voters have to choose between A who's propped up by special interests and B who's ALSO propped up by often the SAME interests, how much of voters' interests would be considered?

I'm not going into all the problems of the democratic system as it'll take too much space, so I'll conclude with these few observations:

1. Democracy is intrinsically good but difficult to achieve in modern, highly populated countries. As a result, what we have isn't the participatory democracy of ancient Greece, but the representative democracy that's often hijacked by special interests.

2. Despite difficulties, ways ought to be found to inject more democracy in the homes, the workplace, and all government institutions. Perhaps devolution - the empowerment of smaller units, from the country to the state, from the state to the cities, and from cities to precincts, ought to be tried. For a start, Malaysia can return to the people their right to local elections, not only in the cities, but also in the smaller towns and kampongs (this admittedly seems a fantasy at a time when Perakians are denied their right to choose their own government).

LChuah
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written by batsman, July 02, 2009 08:25:37
Asamlaksa - Welcome to MT. Were you thinking you are in a respectable journal? I guess MT is trash then. It is not I who is living a fantasy. You are in MT and thinking you are hobnobbing with fellow intellectuals in a respectable journal. what does that say about fantasizing?

I guess your views about rich and poor are clear. The poor have no right to go about their own business. If they wish to become rich, they must toe the line and do the things that rich people do. In the meantime, those that refuse to toe the line are fair prey and can get their arses kicked at any time and robbed of all they have. Is this that a reasonable summary, or are my arms flailing all over the place?
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written by batsman, July 02, 2009 08:30:30
Renoir - TQ for yr comments, but I must dispute the fact that democracy is possible in the work place. Since democracy is a creation of the wealthy, there is no possibility that they will allow their own interests in their own businesss to be dictated by the will of the majority. The whole exercise is about protecting their own private interests in the first place.

Most who are employees in private businesses know this all too well. There is no democracy in the work place. That is why the boss is called the boss.
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written by batsman, July 02, 2009 08:46:56
Asamlaksa - BTW I feel there is no point debating issues which YOU raise. For example you miss the point totally in my statement which you so generously quoted above. I don;t know whether this is purposeful, but what I am saying is that if intellectuals need the security of a guaranteed model, what is the use of all their brain power? They might just as well follow the shining model that you so desperately demand.

Further you accuse me of being a fanatic while it seems your fanaticism has gone beyond all decency. Iran suffered a recent bout of demonstrations. This is called instability? Further you do not have any idea what the minorities are going through in Iran. Al Jazeera recently did a documentary about minorties in Iran and it seems they are pretty well left alone. Not greatly suppressed as you imply.

In the meantime, your suggestion that S Korea is a better model completely hides the fact that S Korea has gone through MANY riots and demonstrations compared to Iran's recent bout. In S Korea MANY more demonstrators were killed than in Iran.

So do you think it is unfair of me not to engage with such a fanatic?
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written by truthbespoken, July 02, 2009 11:33:14
Hahaha, Batsman, if you are still reading this, my comment: You are helluva of a guy, indomitably inscrutable!...like a spider spreading out its legs with the front two always in a ready position for a fight with everyone, anyone! Boy, you have good stamina!

Haha, your constant arguments must be based on the premise that no one's view is ever perfect and the discourses can go on and on if anybody cares to put in their two cents worth. But then, bro, as with all things in this world, a rational balance should always be struck whatever the issues are. Perhaps, in order not to allow the monotony of tone and reaction in such discourses to further set in, it may be better if sometimes, sometimes I say, one can turn to be a good listener. I hope you can agree with this view. You have good fighting spirit and you do have your ideas and valid points. That's why people would still like to engage you even though some may find your style and stand, well, crass and annoying. It would be a bit unfortunate if these open discussions created by you in time lose its direction and vibrancy through anticipated monotony of reaction. Regards.
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written by batsman, July 02, 2009 12:06:57
truthbespoken - TQ for yr advice. Actually i am not as nasty as i seem. I am prepared to talk sensibly. But what can you say to people who start by claiming your ideas are illogical and then claim you do not give evidence and references to back up their case? Shouldn't this be monotony of response as well? All i can say is - if someone throes a punch at me, i will throw a punch back. Quid pro quo is fair isn't it? After all, this IS cowboy town.
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written by truthbespoken, July 02, 2009 15:25:46
Yes, Batsman, I am talking about the monotony of reaction, from both sides, article contributor as well as commentators...cheers!
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written by renoir, July 02, 2009 15:52:48
Batsman, true democracy is difficult anywhere, especially in a capitalist-owned workplace. That's why I talked about "injecting" democracy in such places. Ultimately, as I said earlier, democracy is the best form of government for the rulers (and that includes "bosses")because people like to think they've a voice in decision-making. Nevertheless, perhaps in part because of better educated workforce, even workplaces have become more "democratic." Schemes such as flexible hours not only serve the causes of traffic control, but also allow the worker more room to adjust his schedule. In many companies, top-down management have been replaced with more lateral decision-making structures. Capitalists understand the Marxist concept of alienation between workers and their work, and have strove to overcome this by having teams with different specialties work together on projects. Finally, the internet is another instance of how technology could increase democracy, as people could not only work from their homes - more and more are able to become freelancers. In short, technology has allowed not only more breathing spaces, but also created more "bosses." And that's progress.

LChuah
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written by Milo, July 03, 2009 01:15:15
Let's get back to the root of our problems. What's wrong with Malaysia? Is it democracy or democratic powers being hijacked by a few despotically inclined leaders? If the rule of democracy has been followed in Malaysia by all politicians, would we have a problem with the system? The answer seems obvious.
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written by batsman, July 03, 2009 07:48:34
Renoir - Looks to me that you are begging for my monotonous response. However since there are complaints about how monotonous I am getting, I shall let this one slide. Lucky you!
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