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Speaker’s Corner in Hyde Park PDF Print
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Wednesday, 24 June 2009 16:10

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Yes, even Hyde Park has its limitations. There are certain things allowed and certain things not allowed. There are always boundaries you need to observe to ensure you do not stretch the limit of freedom of expression and stray into the boundary of indecent behaviour. So should Malaysia Today be regarded any different?

NO HOLDS BARRED

Raja Petra Kamarudin

There are many kampong-minded people here in Malaysia Today. And I am not only talking about Malays. You will also find many Chinese, Indians and ‘lain-lain’ with the mentality of a country bumpkin -- which you can detect from the way they comment. And most times their comments are out of topic.

I can of course offer many examples of this but allow me to show you one, the latest comment to my previous article: The Islamic concept of Hijrah (http://mt.m2day.org/2008/content/view/23507/84/ )

written by Steven Ong, June 24, 2009 13:11:54

Dear Pete,

Another term for Hijrah is to be ' born again ' . To be transformed by the renewing of the mind. The old self dies and a new life begins free from sins.

Maybe Pete, you should explain the harsh and cruel verses in the Quran like ,;beat your wife if she disobey you (man),. ; kill the infidels and unbelievers,; do not befriend the Jews and the Christian,; carry out jihad to defend Islam by killing the suspects,; a martyr goes to heaven and enjoy life there.; Muslim women should be fully covered to stop men from sinning and many more which I have forgotten.

A religion or culture or party or standard should be view as a whole in order to fully gauge its goodness or badness. Each would like to advertise its goodness in order to attract followers or members. One would not realise the truth till one has dwell deeply into it and could not escape alive! As joining a mafia or Islam?, where one could not leave anymore. Sorry for I view entering Islam is like joining the mafias or drug syndicates. Once entered forever a member till death.

Okay, Steven Ong may hate Islam just like some Muslims hate Jews. In the West such people are called bigots or racist pigs. Steven Ong, however, may prefer that we call him a democrat who is just exercising his democratic right of free speech. But then Hitler too thought it was his God-given right to exterminate the ‘evil’ Jews so that the world would be free of the Jewish scourge and once again be cleansed of all evil people.

Would we rank people like Steven Ong at the same level as Hitler? I doubt it. I doubt whether we can even rank him at the same level as Hitler’s butler. But in terms of warped mind and misplaced values I suppose we can safely rank people like Steven Ong alongside people like Hitler, Saddam and whatnot.

Now, what was my article about? I wrote about the concept of Hijrah and the true meaning of the word. This article is not only meant to educate those not of the Islamic persuasion about what Hijrah means and to give them a better understanding of the concept but also to remind Muslims about their own religion in case they have forgotten. Most times Muslims themselves stray from what Islam stipulates and end up holding on to so-called ideals and dogma which are actually opposed to Islam.

Steven Ong’s response to what I wrote can be read above. However, I just can’t link what he wrote to what I wrote. What has Steven Ong’s comment got to do with the subject matter, which is Hijrah? I write about one thing and he comments about something totally unrelated -- although he may think it’s related since his comment is about how bad Islam is.

Of course, if I were to delete his comment he will scream that Malaysia Today is not sincere in allowing freedom of speech. He will accuse me of being a phoney and a hypocrite who does not walk the talk.

Did I say Islam is the best religion in the world? Did I say Islam is the true religion and that all other religions are false? Did I say the best thing for everyone would be to convert to Islam? Why then does Steven Ong feel he needs to ‘counter’ my arguments with such comments? I talk about the nice weather in Australia and he talks about how the whites introduced opium to the Chinese.

Let’s close our eyes and imagine we are thousands of miles away from Kuala Lumpur. We are even further away from Brisbane where a certain Malaysian is alleged to be in hiding -- although he appears to be walking around openly on the streets and shaking hands and taking photos with Malaysians he happens to bump into; so he can’t really be in hiding.

Anyway, let’s close our eyes, wherever we may be, and imagine that we are standing on Speakers' Corner in Hyde Park. For those who have never heard of Hyde Park you can click the links below to learn more so that we can avoid another cheong hei article.

Speakers’ Corner in Hyde Park is where you can bring a soapbox and stand on it to deliver your speech. You are free to say anything you want. Some people may stop to listen. If you have something interesting to say you may even attract a large enough crowd. Or maybe no one will bother to listen to your ranting and raving and you may actually end up talking to yourself.

But you will not be allowed to stand stark naked on your soapbox to ‘make a point’. If you scream that England is a Godless society and that the Taliban should bomb every British city to teach the enemies of Islam a lesson they would probably arrest you. If you declare that Hitler should have exterminated every Jew and by not doing so the world is now a bleak place you would probably also get into trouble with the law.

Yes, you do have freedom of speech in England and you can exercise this freedom in public places such as the Speakers’ Corner in Hyde Park. But there are certain ‘rules of engagement’ you must observe. And if you exceed the boundaries of decency then this will not be tolerated, as this would not be regarded as free speech but indecent behaviour.

Malaysia Today is almost like the Speakers’ Corner in Hyde Park. The only thing is you do not stand on a soapbox to scream but instead use your keyboard to ‘talk’. So there are still certain rules of engagement and boundaries between decent and indecent behaviour to observe.

Hyde Park is a public park, which is open to any member of the public who would like to enjoy its facilities. Malaysia Today is almost like a public park but not quite. It is privately owned so there are owners who have the right to define the rules of engagement and the boundaries between decent and indecent behaviour. And you are admitted into Malaysia Today and allowed to comment only after you sign the online agreement that you will observe the rules and agree that you will lose these privileges if you violate the rules.

So understand what is meant by freedom of speech. And understand where freedom of speech ends and indecent behaviour begins. And, most importantly, understand the subject matter and if you do wish to comment -- either to rebut the opinion or otherwise -- then stick to the topic in question. And when we talk about the lovely weather in Australia don’t fly off the handle and start foaming at the mouth and curse everything under the sun with comments totally unrelated to the subject matter.

Many harbour the fallacy that under the ambit of freedom of speech anything goes. This is not true. While you are free to speak your mind on Speakers’ Corner in Hyde Park you are not free to demonstrate your views by indulging in sex on the park bench -- even though you feel you are just demonstrating your views and what you are doing is within the ambit of ‘freedom’.

Okay, you may hate the brown-skinned Indians and Pakistanis. You can even launch an all-white political party and campaign for support so that when your party comes into power you will amend the immigration policy to limit the number of non-whites coming into England. But you are not free to incite whites to kill all the non-white immigrants on grounds that these immigrants have brought down the standard of living of their host country.

Yes, even Hyde Park has its limitations. There are certain things allowed and certain things not allowed. There are always boundaries you need to observe to ensure you do not stretch the limit of freedom of expression and stray into the boundary of indecent behaviour. So should Malaysia Today be regarded any different?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyde_Park_Corner
http://www.royalparks.org.uk/parks/hyde_park/

Comments (81)Add Comment
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written by batsman, June 24, 2009 16:20:33
Such people use the excuse of freedom of speech to call Islam all sorts of names, but feel hurt and indignant when they are called racist pigs or bigots. What can you say about such people?
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written by Thambidoorai, June 24, 2009 16:24:17
Dear Pete,

Yes...however, I would still like to know your response to his allegation that "...Islam...Once entered forever a member till death."
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written by Raja Petra, June 24, 2009 16:30:17
Dear Thambidoorai, maybe you can point out the exact verse in the Quran and then I will read it and give you my response.
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written by Oscar Winner, June 24, 2009 16:31:42
Dear Pete,

You're right. I've come across readers who write comments starting with words like "Off topic" or "Just to digress".

People, we comment freely and our intentions are good, but pls observe the limits. Abang Pete's Hyde Park isn't your abode
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written by pkler, June 24, 2009 16:35:52
Hello Pete,

If you're really walking around in Brisbane, I should know-I've been looking high and low for you. I've nothing better to do with my life. Its quite a topic with my fellow Malaysians in Brisbane....come outlah, you can help me plot BN's demise in Sabah and Anwar can attain his dream of world, oops, Malaysian domination and I get my Sabah back....

Anyway, I am glad to see you slam all and sundry (myself included sometimes)without fear or favour. I know you say you're no journalist, but I think you're exactly what journalism needs-objective when need be, but also very explicit when you are making normative/subjective statements. At least we know where you stand. No bullshit, and that is very much appreciated.
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written by Thambidoorai, June 24, 2009 16:45:56

Dear Pete,

I am sorry, perhaps you missed the point...or my query had been unclear (btw, many people appear to look up to you, especially on Islamic issues, hence, my interest also in your opinion).

I am not affirming or supporting Mr. Ong's claim that the Koran said this or that. It is widely believed (by "infidels") that apostasy (murtad) is punishable by death...you have written about this before, therefore, I am not interested more in inconclusive arguments by various academics or ulamas - I would like to know your opinion on this for the simple reason mentioned in paragraph 1 above.

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written by lobster, June 24, 2009 16:50:18
sigh... RPK, I knew that would happen which was why I did not read your earlier article just to avoid comments such as those. I knew that title is a magnet for narrow minded people to leave indecent comments. I just knew it.

Anyway, hope to bump into a certain malaysian one of these days on the street. Take care.
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written by singam, June 24, 2009 16:59:30
Pete,

It appears that many people are reluctant to understand that Islam goes way beyond what is being taught in Malaysia. For a long time, I had difficulty with including Islam into the hypothesis that all religions eventually converge. It took an encounter with a young man from Pakistan to open my eyes to the fact the Islam is not what most Malaysians think it is.

The sad thing is that, despite your efforts, over several articles, to explain the real Islamic values, some people still carry their frustrations, preconceived notions and bigotry and want to rant and rave about Islam. I suppose if they try to understand what you write, they will have to behave reasonably, but what they really want to do is to rant and rave. So they refuse to read and understand.

Actually there are many websites that proclaim the distortion that is supposed to be Islam. Those websites would be the place to rant about why Islam is bad because the so-called Islam that is being promoted is bad. But here, where we are learning why Islam is actually good, is surely the wrong place.

I suppose those fellers know that if they were to try to post their opinions on those websites, they'd get chopped down and taken apart piece by piece. So they have to come to places such as this to show their kung fu.

Anyhow they are going to rant and rave, so give them one more reason lah. If a comment does not add value, you are not obliged to let it remain. If the article is negative and unnecessarily harsh or abrasive, it doesn't deserve the courtesy of any airing. Just kill it. After all MT is not a public domain.
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written by mick_err_stan, June 24, 2009 17:04:09
People tend to make judgment on others for what they believe, what country they come from, how they dress etc. In my opinion what is important, instead of being judgmental, one should spend more time examining oneself. What knowledge or values that are worth sharing with others to create a harmonious environment and to attain social enlightenment especially so in multicultural society like ours. We can never be at peace until all of us stop being selfish and learn to share with others. If someone is being unjustly treated, he/she who's not in your economic class or of the same race, religion, we should stand up for them anyway. Being a human being is not enough but to be a "HUMANE BEING". Unfortunately, Malaysian lack this traits as the government for more than 50 years categorize Malaysian by race and propagated racial politics. When I was oversea in the late 70's I've seen student of different race standing up for each others because we are all Malaysian. If only.........
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written by Rolling Stone, June 24, 2009 17:04:22
Dear Pete,
I suggest that you get the Administrators of MT to add on a clause in the Terms of Usage that says' " The Administrator have the right to delete any comments made that indicates or implies that the commentor is suffering from Bilopar Disorder" That way you can get rid of all the bigots and those who use MT just to vent thier frustrations.
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written by eeyaw, June 24, 2009 17:14:20
Islam in the old days are so different from now. Taking the examples of Malay Muslims in the 60's to 70's the wearing of weil or bubka are not so prevalent and Muslims have no problem respecting other religions & culture, Chinese & Indians freely mixing with them and there were little racial problems then. A good indication is when you watch P. Ramlee movies where even Chinese love to watch. After Umno became the conservative political party everything changed, partly in large measure to following the scenarios in the Muslim countries of West Asia. This change of Muslim character I believe is cooked up by the so called Religious people with ulterior motives.
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written by Conan Chung, June 24, 2009 17:21:29
DEAR PETE & THAMBIDOORAI,

Sorry for interrupting into your little conversation but i would like to say i'm also a bit interested in what Thambi is asking. Lets not take Thambi's question as another attempt to belittle Islam, but only an attempt at understanding the religion better. You see, a lot of non-Muslims in this country is interested in knowing Islam because we're living in a country where it is the official religion. A lot of decisions in life had to be made and the lack of understanding is impairing our judgment.

For example; if I found myself a "little sweet pie" who happens to be Muslim I would be concerned on how it would affect my future. Would being in a relationship with her lead to my conversion into Islam; albeit forcibly if found hanging out with her until morning? If i end my relationship with her, can I be threatened or charged in syariah or civil courts? Under what conditions can I renounce the religion and convert to another after entering? Is the conversion to Islam automatically if your parents are Islam universal or is it limit to Malaysia? Many more questions lingers in our minds on the religion but us non-Muslims have no way to satisfy our curiosity because the lack of dialogue on the matter. And there is always a chance asking a Muslim these questions can be deemed "sensitive" and automatically taken as belittling and insulting.

For many of us, when we can't find straight answers from a reliable source, we tend to form answers with our own 'limited understanding'. These might lead to misunderstanding the religion even further to the point of demonizing it. Pete, I suggest you make a column specifically to answer questions on Islam. Then people might not stray from the topic whenever you post something on Islam. Of course, its just a suggestion and maybe you're not too learned to give comments on Islam. Well, take it easy and forgive our little self for being so ignorant on matters related to Islam.

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written by Chokma, June 24, 2009 17:21:52
Dear Batsman,
I agree with you that freedom of speech should not be used to insult others. Similarly, Chinese and Indians in Malaysia are not to be called "Pendatang" nor the Malays to be called "Dah-Sampai". All these names are instruments used by politicians to provoke Rakyat's sentiment raising up against each other. State the point, let yes be yes and no no.
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written by hellosunshine, June 24, 2009 17:25:21
Aiya people, it seems only RPK can hentam anything and everybody including Muslims, Chinese, Indians, PMs and what not in MT. Even if he did digress, did Steven Ong really made such a big bigoted mistake as in insulting Islam or was he seeking answers to some nagging fears he had? To a non Muslim like me, the questions albeit undiplomatically put forward does sound interesting to me and it would help if some enlightening answers were replied instead of flying off the handle. I do hate parrots repeating in agreement to whatever RPK says. smilies/cheesy.gif
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written by ultraman_dyna, June 24, 2009 17:52:20
Hello friends,

Which is culture and which is religion?
No single ayat in the Al Quran states that murtad (people who leaves Islam) should be killed.
Yes there were cases of murtads being killed during sahabat(khalifah era) days because the Muslims were at war and these murtads are basically enemy's spies.
Which country that does not kill or torture captured spies?
Over time some Muslims turn the killing of murtad into something decreed by God.
They force people to believe that it is true.
Quran states that for you is your religion and for me is my religion.
Plus there is no compulsion/force in accepting your faith.
Faith is what you believe not what others want you to believe for non starter!

People who only read newspapers and blogs to gain knowledge tend to believe in what is being said about Islam.
They have never bothered to read the Quran but somehow they are expert critics of Islam.
Nowhere in the Quran states if a wife makes a mistake she should be beaten.
I can’t seem to find any verses prohibiting befriending non Muslims too.

Most domestic violence involves Hindu couples in Malaysia.
Can I assume that Hinduism promotes beating of women?
Some bigots will agree hands down.
But I know it has nothing to do with religion.
It has nothing to do with culture as well.
It’s because the wife didn’t no that the guy is a LOSER before she married him.

A few Christians bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki with atomic bombs.
Does Christianity have anything to do with the killing of innocent life?
Is bombing the best way to spread the word of Gospel?
I’m sure Jesus/Isa a.s would not agree to the use of atomic bombs on civilians.

The first revelation Prophet Muhammad s.a.w received from God is Read! Read! Read!
That’s right.
Read before you say something.
Gaining knowledge is a priority.
Never stop learning.
Get elucidation on everything possible.
And the interpretation goes on and on and on since the root word is Read!
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written by AlwaysFair, June 24, 2009 18:13:34
Take it easy Pete!!

Not everyone has your intellectual level and not many understand fully what you write sometimes. Also there are always people who are bigots and many with baggages of every sort. Thanks for your "Hyde Park Corner," and hope we won't rile you up so often.

Happy hiding in the open.
Wise men shouldn't be so easily riled up by fools.

Take Care Pete!
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written by Democrats, June 24, 2009 18:19:09
I believe all religion under god promotes goodwill and kindness towards each other, and all religions try to help us reach a better livelihood.

Sometimes the meaning gets skewed and someone thinking they are smarter than the rest starts making their own intepretation and making it part of the religion. And that is where religion start to get a bad rap.

I sometimes just wish god can just appear before us all and tell us straight to our face what is the meaning of life and his rules to life, not through some messenger or prophet or some madmen who beleive they can actually hear GOD.

Wouldn't that save alot it time rather than engaging in arguments and debates on which religion is true and argue till the cows come home and yet at the end of the day, we still get nowhere!

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written by BobSam, June 24, 2009 18:27:30
Ultraman,
RPK mentioned about people like u.
U state that "A few Christians bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki with atomic bombs..."
Ultraman, u r making a fundamental mistake. Did they bomb those 2 cities becoz they were Christian and the residents of those cities were not?
OR did they bomb those cities as Military personnel intending to short-cut the was in Asia becoz if they didnt, the loss of human live (mostly Allied troops and chances were residents of Malaya too) would have been far larger. It also happened that some of them were Christian, some were Jews, some were atheists.

I wonder whether you think that USA of today is Christian. Do you think, that a Christian can put up a display of a baby Jesus in a manger in a Federal Government building? Do you think a Christian could open his Bible and read it during assembly in a public school? Those persons who tried to do this will be arrested and may even be expelled from school.
Here in Malaysia, we have Moslem teachers "berdoa" during assembly in a public school even though there are students and teachers of other faiths present. Here in Malaysia, no one thinks it is wrong to have beef rendang, and other beef based dishes during a "Rumah Terbuka" or any public function. I remember a person once saying, I was not aware that you cannot eat beef. Just push the beef aside, and eat the Mee Siam lah! Can I say the same thing if pork was served instead?
I eat beef, but knowing that some people (Chinese Buddhists and Indians-Hindu faith) cannot eat beef & pork (Moslems & some Hindu's), I would rather that both these items not be used for public meals. Restrict it to Chicken, Seafood (halal) and perhaps goat/sheep.
RPF will say I am off topic. So my apologies.

BUT we have to get out from under our "tempurung" and learn about our neighbors. Perhaps it is time that we start visiting our neighbors, even if we know that they have dogs in their houses and they also eat food that we cannot partake.

I know Arabian Moslems do it. But in recent years, Malaysian Moslems dont. Why?

I think it is time, we all have to "HIJRAH" the way we think and act and REACT.
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written by PASOK, June 24, 2009 18:57:30
Firstly, at Hyde Park Corner you can say anything you want. You can say the Jews are the cause of the world's problems or that the Queen of England is a whore. I have heard both. You wont be arrested. You might get attacked by listeners but that is what the police are there for - to stop violence and bodily harm. But freedom to speak - that is guaranteed.

Now in MT you have to decide on your own rules but the principle should be total freedom of speech. It does not matter whether comments are stupid, "off subject", insulting, "sensitive or however you may negatively judge them.

The value of freedom of speech is that it allows people to express themselves freely. It is not so much about what is being written (the content) but in the empowerment that comes with the freedom to write and express.

Some people say that the reason that Malaysia is so politically "mild" is that people have sites like MT where they are free to write out all their frustrations. Such people letting off steam are less likely to go to the streets. Look what happened in Iran when the government tried to close down the new media - the result - real violence.

Dont be so upset about the "quality" of the postings. You have to read them as a whole - as a true reflection of our society. And in the whole it is all quite beautiful. To see racists and bigots mouthing off, or people who are just plain angry. Or peacemakers and timid folks trying to make their point. Sometimes truly profound things are written and there are times the level of crassness and ignorance can be startling. But taken as a whole the MT comments will be a priceless archive of our society. A much truer reflection of the real Malaysia than some censored, sanitised collection.
That is why many politicians constantly monitor MT - because it gives a very accurate picture of what the people think. The articles may be interesting for their newsworthiness but it is the level of reaction and emotion in uncensored form that is the most truly interesting phenomena of MT.

Lastly, dont fix what is not broken.
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written by anakmalaysia777, June 24, 2009 19:01:05
Totally support RPKs view. We need to have boundaries. Otherwise there is no civilized discussion. We do want the law of the jungle to rule.

We all can agree to disagree, without having to simply disparage a religion, race or person without having reasonable knowledge about the subject matter. We simply cannot take uneducated notions and hold it to be true and use that as a basis to blast away only because we can write a few words and we are given that freedom to write.

On the related issue about Islam:

From the non-Muslim point of view, your articles on Islam and its tenets has been illuminating and I personally wish more of it for the following reasons:

At best, in school they talk about the four pillars of Islam. Living in a nation which has nearly 60% Muslims, would certainly benefit us to know more than that.

Unfortunately our Islamic authorities (Jakim and all) have failed miserably in the dissemination of information about the religion to the non-Muslims. Our perception about these is simple. They are like the Soviet regimes -'nyet" for everything.

All we hear about the religious authorities is that they are clever at body snatching and arresting people on diabolical khalwat charges. Fed only with such information, the non-muslims cannot be but hold on to their negative perceptions about Islam.

And we cannot discuss Islam and religion with our Muslim friends. It is almost a Taboo. Sometimes one wonders if this reluctance to discuss is because of the fear to expose their own ignorance about the religion or even worse their failures to abide by the teachings.

In spite of common perceptions about some issues, Islam has so much good ideas and advice to offer. I do not feel my religion being threatened. On the other hand, I can appreciate the many similarities rather than the dissimilarities.

Yes I have difficulty accepting some bits of my own religion, but I do not reject the religion for this reason. I suppose it will be the same with Islam or for that matter any other religion.

So RPK, please do continue to inform us about Islam in your own unique way. I am sure that, like me, many non-Muslims have gained useful knowledge about Islam.

Thanks.
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written by shahidan, June 24, 2009 19:04:40

It seems RPK has to crack the whip every now again on something as basic as the incompatibility of abuse and freedom of expression. I don’t have the reference to when I sent this commentary to MT, but it was in response to one similiar reminder by RPK and is relevant to the discussion.

“Some bloggers feel freedom should be absolute. This, no doubt, includes the right of the individual to promote racism, murder of masses of people, debauchery and any other perversions that comes to mind. According to this school of thought, an individual should have the right to post their views even if such views insult and offend the race and religious beliefs of other bloggers. They assert, if you don’t agree with the offending bloggers, then just skip their postings or rebut them.

Seductive as it may sound, there are serious flaws in this argument.

Though we are endowed with the power to spit, we don’t go around spitting anywhere when we feel like it. When we sit in a restaurant for a meal, do we not deliberately refrain from spitting on the floor because we know this is offensive to others in the restaurant and also because it is unhygienic? Even though the other guests may be strangers and we are unlikely to ever meet again, civil consciousness and civilized values tell us not to offend.

Just because contributors in blogosphere write anonymously, it is no excuse to be offensive to the feelings of others. By others, I do not mean the powers that be. I refer to fellow bloggers who belong to one or other of the ethnic or religious groups, or to none for that matter. Not unlike other societies, power in our country is a monopoly of class interests, not of a whole race or religious group. Races, regardless of religious affiliations, are stratified along class lines. When those who wield power abuse those over whom they exercise power, they commit the abuse on their own behalf and not on behalf of their whole race or ethnic/religious block, though using the whole ethnic group may be used as a fig leaf to legitimize their nefarious agendas. It is the responsibility of those who seek justice and fair play to expose intra-ethnic contradictions. Lumping power holders and the marginalized within an ethnic group is ensuring the ethnic divide is reinforced.

Race-hate mongers or chauvinists pollute MT with their offensive racial slurs when they lump power holders and their wrong doings with the whole race/religious group to which the offending power holders belong. They ignore the fact that among this ethnic group are also the exploited and oppressed who, in fact, have a natural common cause with those in a similar socio-economic position among the other racial/religious groups. These groups are kept apart by political and religious manipulation and ideology. The chauvinists are also inclined to champion the cause of their own ethnic group as a whole and cover up the power holders within their own ethnic group. They take a racially chauvinist position and do not acknowledge that it is not their whole ethnic group that is marginalized. Within their own ethnic group there are also privileged groups who work collaboratively with the well heeled of the other groups. Divide and rule works precisely because its victims accept the description of the other ethnic group as the source of their woes and hardships, perceived or real. The propagandists for this are the institutionalised purveyors of misinformation, the ethnic based political parties, the media and, more recently, bloggers themselves.

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written by anakmalaysia777, June 24, 2009 19:05:16
Just to add to the above:

Sometimes it is necessary to show and be shamed. That is the only way people will understand.

It is because of the failure to do this on a larger scale - expose the culprits for what they are or to point out their mistakes, that there is so much hypocrisy, corruption and distress in our country.

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written by shahidan, June 24, 2009 19:05:59
Continued from above...

If we acknowledge that the power holders nationally represent class interests, on a global scale this is even more true and glaring. American corporatocracy currently rules the waves. Small corporate elites, representing a tiny segment of the American population, work through collaborative elites in the South. The resource-rich countries of the South are particularly targeted, causing war and mayhem to maintain its grip and extend its control over these countries. They too claim they conduct their nefarious agendas on behalf of the American people. In certain circumstances, nationalist elites do not want to be collaborative exploiters of their own people and such leaders get demonized. In recent decades, oil-rich countries are targeted as we fast approach peak oil, when the scarcity of oil, in the absence of alternative energy, will generate intense struggles between the owners of energy resources and those who want to ‘liberate’ them of it. The Middle East is being turned into a key battle ground because the population there demands a more assertive leadership against empire, while its elites are totally compromised seeking crumbs from the table of empire. Precisely because the Middle East is predominantly Muslim, that Islam is demonized. All the fissures within the countries on the frontline in the Middle East, based on Shia/Sunni schisms, tribal, clan and other divisions, are being exploited to widen the opportunities for divide and rule and securing empire. Iraq has been the eye of the Middle East storm, having lost over 650,000 of its citizens to US invasion and occupation since 2003. For empire, its strategy is becoming unglued. The major debate in the US is how to get out of Iraq without too much loss of face.


I am certain robust debate and argument will continue to be the order of the day on MT. It is okay to attack anything I write if you consider it irrational, ignorant, not thought through, or whatever. I reserve the right to have the same privilege. It goes without saying that this does not entitle anyone to drag these discussions down to the level of attacking and abusing my family, culture, and religion/ideology. These are not responsible for my commentaries, only I am. I may write from an ideological perspective you find disagreeable and you are entitled to question and dissect to shreds the ideology or its basis, which is part and parcel of debating issues. Integrity requires that you back your comments with facts and information. But you are not entitled to demand the death of people, millions of them, who share my perspective in respect of political ideology, culture or religion.

The curse of racial politics and racism that oppresses our politics and culture after fifty years of independence should be challenged. If we allow MT to become a platform for race bashing and abuse, we will have demonstrated our incapacity to appreciate the freedom of expression offered to us to inform and educate ourselves. To continue on a trajectory of race abuse and bigotry as a number of bloggers have been recklessly doing, proves there are many who fit perfectly RPK’s definition of monkeys incapable of appreciating the flowers of freedom of expression that MT offers.”
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written by Urangsabah, June 24, 2009 19:16:21
I guess everyone of us is racialist and religious bigot just like A Money Safe of Utusan or Rusdi of All Non Malays (exception mat saleh) are his Numero Uno Enemy or Ibrahim Ali, won becuase he use Pas symbol and latest our PM - PM: 'A religious duty to have Malay unity talks'(why only Malay not Malaysian, why is it religious, its politic, not religion.

I think we should not dwell to much on this..........we should look for the middle road where racialist and religious bigots like us can meet half way without each losing face.....

But talk only like Nazri, will never resolve the issues, actions could.

Not sure if I have digress or gone off topic........
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written by journeyman, June 24, 2009 19:37:38
dear rpk, allow me.

"It is widely believed (by "infidels") that apostasy (murtad) is punishable by death...you have written about this before, therefore, I am not interested more in inconclusive arguments by various academics or ulamas"

if academicians and ulamas are not good enough for you, i suggest you blow up your doll (pun intended), strip down, hold it next to you in front of your mirror, and then say ' mirror,mirror on the wall...'

" A lot of decisions in life had to be made and the lack of understanding is impairing our judgment."

if you'd give me your address, i'll send you some money for a bus ticket for you and your squeeze to go to a masjid, islamic institute or islamic faculty of your choice and suggest a name you can talk to to clear your glands, er..mind. i can't believe you would not understand islam even after speaking personally to the scholars. perhaps your judgement is alrealy impaired. that's why you ask detailed questions on islam in mt.

"if I found myself a "little sweet pie" who happens to be Muslim I would be concerned on how it would affect my future. Would being in a relationship with her lead to my conversion into Islam; albeit forcibly if found hanging out with her until morning?"

to make matters simple, there are two issues here. maybe three. one, if you hang out with your muslim little sweet pie until morning, she's not a good muslim to begin with, and thus should be avoided if your aim is solely to seek and embrace the true path. of course if its with the augmented intention of clearing your glands and exercising your dick, then you are not interested in understanding islam in the first place and deserve a scalpling. two, if you are caught performing the act of siamese twins with your muslim little sweet pie and are forced to convert, you are either a stupid idiot for not being discreet enough to hide your exploits, or an equally stupid idiot for not knowing your rights in this country. three, actually in the prophet's or the sahabat's time, you'd get a javelin up through the edifice in your rear, and if lucky it comes out through the edifice below your nostrills. if unlucky, it pops out through one of your eye- sockets, in which case the sahabaats will get a free squash ball for their recreational game.

" us non-Muslims have no way to satisfy our curiosity because the lack of dialogue on the matter. And there is always a chance asking a Muslim these questions can be deemed "sensitive"

i'll be more than happy to also send you some money for two bus tickets (assuming you go with your little sweet pie, but remember not to fondle her in front of the uztaz, remember the javelin) to join brother thambi and his squeeze on his journey of enlightenment. with the scholars, nothing is 'sensitive', unless you fondle their private parts, in which case you might get a javelin up your rear anyway. lack of dialogue? if the dialogue is to belittle the faith, then there is plenty around. there is only a lack of dialogue, a sincere one, between your kind and the scholars of islam to really find out the truth, because there is no sincerity to seek them and establish the real deal. i wouldn't engage bro thamby in a dialogue if i was interested in finding out the details about hinduism, i'd go to his temple, hopefully he'd buy me a bus ticket, and see his samy (not of the vellu kind).

"when we can't find straight answers from a reliable source, we tend to form answers with our own 'limited understanding'."

bullshit! wanting to find warped answers from unreliable sources is more like it. you want to ask the scholars questions? you dont even have to piss in your pants or shiver, like fft, at the thought of having to undergo that 'ouchy' little operation. you are dead (pun again intended) right in saying all your spewing are results of your limited understanding. rpk answering you on islam is fine, but i believe he has a different agenda with mt to want to waste his precious time and bandwidth answering in detail things asked by people like you who just want to hear what you want to hear and which could easily be done by taking a bus to ikim or taman melewar.

"Aiya people, it would help if some enlightening answers were replied instead of flying off the handle. I do hate parrots repeating in agreement to whatever RPK says"

aiya! another fft wannabe. you want enlightening answers, you have to ask enlightening questions with some degree of enlightening manners. i do hate people who scream for justice and equality and a civil society, but get drunk, abuse their wives, cheat on their income tax, keep mistresses, jump queues on the road and supermarkets and post offices, lie to customers and get their children to piss by the roadside.

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written by nanakassim, June 24, 2009 19:57:01
written by PASOK, June 24, 2009 18:57:30
"...The value of freedom of speech is that it allows people to express themselves freely. It is not so much about what is being written (the content) but in the empowerment that comes with the freedom to write and express..."

Pasok, there is a place where you can have absolute freedom to express yourself in any manner totally irrelevant to the topic. The place is called a pub, but you must have one glass more than what you can take. So, if your need for unbridled freedom is great, kindly adjourn to a pub nearest your office or home or wherever you may be. Cheers.
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written by malsia1206, June 24, 2009 20:11:50
RPK, on this topic of decent and indecent behaviour with posting of comments, allow me to relate my personal experience. There is this blog site "The Might Of The P.." which seemed to have made some supporting references to MT. They wrote an article recently with outright foul and indecent language on the Perak Royalty relating to the State's current crisis. I posted my comment with total disagreement on their deliberate despicable language and tone. After some exchanges, they deleted all my posts and even threaten to reveal my IPP. I was glad I stood my ground that even as much as we agreed the manner the Perak Royalty handled the crisis badly, it should not be any excuse to degrade in an open blog site which assumes the status of a public domain. I thought that was uncalled for and in bad taste to say the least. I sincerely hope MT is not aligned nor associated with that blog if you really have a wish to maintain any sense of decorum. By all means, be critical as we have been. But indeed a fine line needs to be drawn between criticism and gutter language.
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written by justinlian, June 24, 2009 20:21:22
Here goes again....
Lets not fight it but join in.
It will be fun, Lol
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written by Sabahfan, June 24, 2009 20:35:43
DEAR Thambidoorai

Rules or not rules, I like to give you my full support..

ONCE enter cannot get out... sounds like the verses of the song Hotel california,

Once inside, can't leave the hotel, it becomes a prison.

Any religion with such a rule can only be led by so called representative of Allah, with A HUGE SENSE OF INSECURITY... when members leave the religion they would think that it will give a bad image, thats why they are leaving..

so the only thing left to do is introduce DEATH FOR APOSTASY...
'
and the only solution to this INSECURITY PROBLEM IS all the wise people of the world who arent in that religion yet SHOULD AVOID IT AT ALL COST...

OR BE STUPID..... and whatever suffering you face afterwards, for me i just laugh at them.. and says good riddance.
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written by Raja Petra, June 24, 2009 20:58:11
of course, another alternative would be we close the comments section like what we once did. No doubt the weirdos and sickos would leave but then the quality readers would come back after leaving in disgust.
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written by malsia1206, June 24, 2009 21:05:53
Closing the comments section would render MT a heart without the soul. A lost sense of identity of sorts. I would definitely not go along with that proposal.
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written by chin, June 24, 2009 21:06:05
Message received.

A non-Muslim commenting on Islam is taboo.

We should ignore what non-Muslim think of Islam, it is unimportant and bigotry. In fact it is unacceptable, even if it is a voice of concern.

Thank Goodness for we have such a open and tolerant society.

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written by ibabonma, June 24, 2009 21:30:02
It pains me to hear some of my fellow commenter has been hurtful by the so-called offensive comments made by me, admittedly, fills with venom, anger and no less packed with hatred against Umno and the likes. That may be uncalled to some but allowing the opponent Umno/BN in particular for breathing space surely amounting to allowing the noose to grip your neck, and ended with you hanging yourself under a banyan tree one of these days, instead.

We are on the offensive and gaining mileage against the dreadful UMNO/BN governance and that must be sustained to disorientate them, my way and yours. This need to be done for they are bigger evils compared to my ghastly commentaries. Kawan, leave your cocoon if you may and spend time in the company of Umno in privacy, you will be surprised they are the worst bigoted, chauvinistic dogs. Would you also care to visit them at their Blogs and state you findings then after?

Out of curiosity, do you think my comments are worst then the very act of disintegrating Altantunya with C4 explosives? Making tons of money in PKFZ or submarine commission that ran into half billion RM is nothing compares to my sin in calling …. Umno celaka?

Robbing the Malays under the pretext of advocating NEP to the extend that the kampong folks are being made poorer by the day and practically surviving on rice, belacan and salted fish throughout their kampong life is nothing compared to my bad mouthing?



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written by SamYap, June 24, 2009 22:16:00
Dear RPK,

Please don't get so worked up over Steven Ong's lopsided views and equate it with the views of other readers who may not be meeting your expectations.

I don't really blame people like Steven Ong for having such views, as your goodself had written many times about how muslims themselves give Islam a bad name; so shouldn't you expect that there would be someone like Steven Ong?

When you leave the door open, any devil or saint can walk in and say or do whatever he likes. However, if it happens that what was said was not to your liking or the English was bad or the person had written something out of topic; you want to slam the door shut?

What standards are you applying? Hyde Park standards? And what are Hyde Park standards? The examples you mentioned about what can or cannot be said at Hyde Park are arbitrary rules. It all depends on the situation. If someone said that the muslims should bomb every tube station in London, he might not be arrested, instead he might come under surveillance before any arrest is made. Perhaps you may wish to elaborate a bit more about what can or cannot be said at Hyde Park Speakers' Corner, and specifically what rules apply over there, which you would like to apply here?

I haven't been there since September 11, so maybe the City Council had since put up a board now with rules about what you can or cannot say.

mt.m2day.org is a great site, yes, warts and all. You can't run a website with an open forum and expect ONLY top class A1 commentators to write.

Then again its a place where some frustrated soul can express his pent up feelings - some whose feelings have been bottled up for 40 years or more. You can't expect everyone to think and write rationally. For fcuks sake, I have read worst comments in some so-called Western styled democratic forums, with comments from ultra Christian groups who say Obama is the anti-Christ and some would even try to interpret the Revelations in the Bible to suit the occassion of Obama being elected as President of USA as that of the ascension of the Anti-Christ.

It would seem you have elevated yourself to a level where you are beyond reproach. And here is where I would wish to direct you to your style of writing ( Bullshit Islam, Bodoh Melayu, amongst others) which sometimes gave people, such as Steven Ong, an impression that its perfectly alright to kick muslims and Islam in the butt.

Its no loss to me if the comments sections is closed down or censored. But it would be a great loss to many and possibly your goodself too.

Credit must be given where credit is due and I think many others would agree that if it had not been for you and the blogging community, the election results of 2008 would not have been quite so good for Pakatan Rakyat. While some might say that Anwar was instrumental in keeping the 3 parties together, it must not be forgotten that the bloggers being non-politicians with no political career goals were the ones who moved the fence sitters. But if the attitude of the blogging community is one where they think they are above others, that will only serve to kill the fervour for change in our country.

Thank you for mt.m2day.org and whether it lives or dies, my hope for a better Malaysia will not diminish.
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written by hellosunshine, June 24, 2009 22:45:35
Play it again, Sam. We should taste the bitter, sweet and sour that enriches this beautiful multi-racial country and I agree that if not for MT and the bloggers, we would most probably still be in the stone age, blur like hell and still enjoying the shafting from BN. smilies/wink.gif
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written by taishan, June 24, 2009 23:28:45
Thambidoorai, RPK, there is probably no specific verse that apostasy being criminal in Koran but look at this hadith:

Bukhari 9.83.17
Narrated 'Abdullah:
Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."
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written by ultraman_dyna, June 24, 2009 23:31:45
BobSam,

U r missing my point my fren..
Read the 1st line.
Which is culture which is religion?
Maybe you misinterpreted my comments.

The rule of democracy is majority rules.
The majority of the population is Muslims.
The majority of Muslims practice Malay Muslim culture.
Therefore, the culture of Malaysians will be directly affected with what Muslims belief, believe and practice.

I doubt the practice of reciting prayer/doa will stop.
You can be an idealist if you wish but let's be practical here.
Many(read not majority including yours truly) Muslims will take less than 2 sec to reach for the parang if it touch the subject of 'Islam'.
Plus as far as I can remember the teachers will always remind students to recite their own prayers according to their beliefs during the moment of silence/prayer.

Dear Lord Jesus, please help enlighten me today so that I can be a better servant to mankind.

Whats wrong with that?
Any religion prohibits its follower to ask God for help before starting school?
It's not to be practice just bcz America doesn't pratice that in public school.
Is US of A your role model of how a multicultural country should be run?
I can't remember any non muslims SLAVE working in padi fields since the dawn of time.
But Im sure I've seen blacks working very hard for their white American brothers.
I'm sure some wish Malaysia to be a pure tolerant secular country.
But again lets stop being an idealist.

No rendang daging during hari raya open house?
U gotta be kiddin mate..
The only way to go forward is to have more dialogues on all contentious matters.
Most of it should be done behind closed doors since many (read extremist) Muslims will storm the venue just like what happened at Bar council.
U tell me what u dont like.
I go back ask community how can we help/change.
But u must always remember that no solution can make everybody happy all the time.
If we work together and continue airing our properly thought view, I believe Malaysia will be far much better.
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written by taishan, June 24, 2009 23:40:34
While the Quran does permit freedom of religion from the following verses:
‘Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion,’
‘Whosoever will, let him believe, and whosever will, let him disbelieve,’
‘There is no compulsion in religion.

But then Sura 4:137
Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them nor guide them on the way.
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written by ultraman_dyna, June 24, 2009 23:40:41
Taishan is the new internet mufti.
He types the subject in ******.
And comes out with a fatwa based on an internet sunnah/hadis.
Did you not read what some mufti in Malaysia said that there is no such thing as a halal blood e.g Lina Joy.
What part of there is no compulsion in Islam that you do not understand.
Which is the most credible source for Muslims?
The Quran or Hadis?
Hadis was something written based on hearsay of alleged close friends of the Prophet pbuh.
Please read my 1st comment at the top.
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written by freud80, June 25, 2009 00:06:36
I'm a Buddhist and up till now, I still don't see a point of people of one religion commenting on other religions. Everyone has their own belief, just that you believe your wife is the prettiest lady in the world. If everyone can accept each other, we would have one less argument in this world.

This is similar for those people trying to influence other people to join their religions or impose rules on other people lives. You will understand what I meant, those 'nothing to do' law enforcer!!

Pete - I totally agree if you blocked these uneducated comments to prevent waste of space. 100 stupid comments would take maybe some MB of server's capacity.
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written by Raja Petra, June 25, 2009 00:41:42
Dear chin, stop acting like a child. How old are you anyway?
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written by imanj, June 25, 2009 00:43:02
Dear Raja Petra,

I'm sorry to have missed out on your article in regards to 'Hijrah'.I'm sur it was decent and informative.As for the above article,would have to agree with on the limitations and it wouldn't matter to even ask anyone if the comments section be shut down etc.It would be the owners perrogrative and right.

I just would like to say ,this world if full of all kinds of minds,that will and at the same time never get the point.It has been self-indulgent emotions for many,a trend that is rising.Can it change? or will it change? Even to hope now,just looking at our country Malaysia is rapidly diminishing.But at a public place like Hyde Park,where there are people and families,it would warrant censorships when a speaker rants and raves.I suppose on the net,like MT (which is home and a big deal to many),unwarranted rants and raves,irrelevant comments and what have you will not be a miss for some.

So for that,i would apologise,if i had made any unapplicable comments before on any article.I do wish to improve and hope to speak with a mind that helps me for the issue and if it helps anyone else out there reading.

Also to all readers,race and religion has always been the bain of this world's troubles.It's only through knowledge and indepth understanding,one could be appreciative and a little tolerant and understanding.But even then,we are human enough to be just human and base our comments on experiences.We just need to always remember the little new-born and many children who are often forgotten and suffer the consequences through the selfishness of adults.I know,cause my little girl is one of them.Each day I pray for the strength and hope,that I have another day granted to me by "GOD" ( any GOD for that matter),to be there for her and protect her from all that created consequences..Hope everyone finds some peace to your troubles...

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written by parsona, June 25, 2009 00:49:33
Pete, this is your house, you set the rules and you do as you must. If a guest becomes unruly, kick them out. However, I think the great thing about your site is that it educates people and makes them aware about the disgusting things that happen in our country done by our leaders. It will spur them to vote out the evil we know as BN. Therefore, the more who reads this, I would assume the more aware people are of BN's misdeeds and the more people who will abandon BN. People read your thoughts and exposés here and pay most attention to it. I'm sure they know the comments do not reflect Malaysia Today's views. So why the need to filter out the more uncouth crowd? The more readers the better, be they educated or uneducated. Ban those who repeatedly post extreme things and ignore your warnings, but if you close the comments, you will lose some readers. We want all of Malaysia to know the truth. Don't try to be selective of who reads the truth.
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written by Raja Petra, June 25, 2009 00:58:31
Dear hellosunshine, if I were to say that a chimp is a bloody monkey you would disagree with me just so that you can, as usual, disagree with me on everything I say. So I no longer waste my time trying to convince you.
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written by Raja Petra, June 25, 2009 01:00:47
Dear SamYap, nowadays even if you just mention the word 'bomb' in a plane or airport they arrest and charge you. And they don't care a damn if you are a first class passenger paying RM20,000 for your airfare. Just because you are paying top dollar does not exempt you from the rules.
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written by Raja Petra, June 25, 2009 01:01:58
Dear taishan, go find it in the Quran first and then come back and talk to me or else don't waste my time.
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written by slimbrowser, June 25, 2009 01:18:26
The best thing to do is not to discuss religion in MT. Let MT be an avenue to bash UMNO and its alliance.

If we must discuss religion, or how skewed some people have gone off religion, open up another blog for the purpose.
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written by SamYap, June 25, 2009 01:35:39
Dear RajaPetra,

I think you did write this: Speakers’ Corner in Hyde Park is where you can bring a soapbox and stand on it to deliver your speech.......
... If you scream that England is a Godless society and that the Taliban should bomb every British city to teach the enemies of Islam a lesson they would probably arrest you.

Did I make a different reference? Did I not say that if someone said bomb the tube stations in London while he stood at the Speakers' Corner?

If you as so much whisper bomb at any airport, yes, you would be in deep shit. But thats not on topic, then is it? We are talking about Speakers' Corner and your dissatisfaction with some commentators and how one may not be allowed to say certain things at the Speakers' Corner. Not about a 'bomb while sitting in an aeroplane'.

Anyway, I have no wish to rattle you or have a debate with you. What I had written earlier is with hope that through sites like mt.m2day.org, we will see change, change for the better.





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written by SamYap, June 25, 2009 01:49:04
Dear RajaPetra,

Yeah, maybe its a good idea to shut down the comments section for an unspecified time.

An alternative is to limit the number of comments for each article, say about 15 or 20 comments. It would also make it easier for admin to hit the delete button while browsing the comments section for "nonsensical" comments.

But what is nonsensical anyway? Perhaps some rules listed on the homepage might just help.
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written by Thambidoorai, June 25, 2009 02:01:52
Dear Pete,

The hornet's nest has been stirred...doesn't matter who stirred it.

Conan Chung is, i guess, at least 20 years younger than me...my first fiancee (and that was all...sob, sob) was muslim.

Anyway, you appear to have a certain regard for wikipedia...many of your articles (including the one above) make references to wikipedia.

Key in "Sunni, apostasy, death"...see what it says. Wiki belongs to all...if you feel it is wrong, make the necessary changes and leave your reference there.

As for your comment above about banning for a time commenters...by all means, it is your blog...but, i think this is not the reason you blog.

This issue is of very great interest, to muslim and non-muslim alike.

You are now a public figure (much looked up to by certain quarters), your opinion counts.
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written by renoir, June 25, 2009 03:03:15
Sometimes I refrain from commenting when emotions, not ideas, predominate. There WERE occasions, however, when thought inputs deserved the term "discourse," and on such occasions this site rivaled the best anywhere in the world. A great website, even a political one, shouldn't be limited to the dissemination of information (or - hahaha! - disinformation): it should also serve as an educational resource.

Imanj is right to say that it's "only through knowledge and indepth understanding,one could be appreciative and a little tolerant and understanding." The problem here, and everywhere else in the world, is lack of knowledge, or knowledge that's relatively free from "spin" and biasness. This is natural so long as economic, political, and military power are, within the nation, largely in the hands of a privileged elite, and internationally, in the hands of the few established world powers.

If our knowledge depends much on the producer (or controller of the international mass media), how can we be reasonably sure that what we know is that ephemeral thing called "truth?" An obvious way would be to note, as Protagoras did thousands of years ago, that there are always - at least - two sides to any controversy. Thus, when you keep hearing one side of any argument, it's up to you to think of alternative explanations for the other side. Think about this: you never agree with even your parents, siblings, friends, and teachers 100 percent of anything. Why should you agree 100 percent with what CNN or Reuters or AFP say? Further, largely because the West controls most of the world's media, very few views and opinions originate outside those sources, and you ought to be careful even when certain views are being made by your own people, your own country or fellow-religionists. All this does NOT mean that what originates from weaker countries are necessarily the gospel truth - clearly many are not - but it does mean that NO source from ANYWHERE should be accepted without question.

LChuah
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written by Nice n Simple, June 25, 2009 03:29:55
WHY STEVEN WROTE WHAT HE WROTE?

Because he is, like all non-malay malaysians, suppressed because of the colour of his skin. And because, islam is misused as a tool to indirectly bully non-muslim non-malay malaysians into submission.

The result: another frustrated malaysian who doesn't know where else and how else to let it go but on RPK's site.
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written by JinJangJoe, June 25, 2009 04:26:58
Hi! Fellas! religion is sensitive matter. We can argue till, the cows come home. Let us leave the religious topic to the 'infidels' who are screwing this country.

You and me have a single noble responsibility- to elect a government to serve the rakyaat, with accountablity. JUST PICTURE YOURSELVE- IF WE CAN HAVE A GOVERNMENT FREE OF CORRUPTION, WE WILL BE SO WEALTHY, AND WILL BECOME THE ENVY OF THE SWISS
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written by evaangel, June 25, 2009 07:24:58
Once when I was in a cab in the UK being driven by a cabdriver of Pakistani descent, he asked me what religion I was. When I told him I was Buddhist, he started to have a tirade of what a bad religion it was and how I should be at least a Christian but preferably Islam.

Anyway - reading RPK's words in his last article made me smile:
Jihad means struggle. It is the struggle between you and temptation. You struggle against your lust, your vanity, your greed, your arrogance, your feelings of jealously, your ego, and much more. These are all within us. We all suffer from this ‘sickness’. And we struggle to overcome them as far as possible. And when we win that Jihad, the struggle against our own heart and mind, then we will be able to migrate or Hijrah to a new level.

The life of Buddha was all about this. Maybe they do not use words like Jihad and Hijrah. But the concept remains the same whatever words you may choose to use.


So don't bash RPK for his interpretation of the Quaran. Don't blame him for 9/11, violence against women, xenophobia and narrowmindedness. That is someone else's interpretation of the same book.

And before you fault the book remember the Dark Ages when the Bible was used to murder en masse in God's name. And Charles Manson who supposedly practiced Buddhist tantra and went on to be a notorious mass murderer.
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written by Kampong, June 25, 2009 07:38:27
Bigot is as bigot does. Bro, we bound to run into a bigot or two in this world of billions people, but we should ignore them and engage those who are intelligent and tolerant and understanding, which I beieve the majority of the readers of your writings are.

Let's focus our energy to fight the big wars instead of the little skirmishes that are of little importance. Let's kill off the cancerous BN cells that are destroying our country, and with a better government in place, hopefully we will become more tolerant and understanding.
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written by mamak, June 25, 2009 08:11:32
Some people are born stubborn.
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written by Fairminded, June 25, 2009 08:18:58
Frankly I and am sure many M2day readers are getting sick and tired of religious arguments. Sure, if Islam is praised then it will attrach alot of anti Islam comments but I dare say that if there is an article praising Christianity, Buddihsm, Judaism etc it will attrach equally the same flak from muslims (frankly I still have not yet read an article praising religions other than Islam in M2day). So let us leave religion out as a personal matter and have a clear separation of state and religion. Concentrate on matters common to all like freedom, anti corruption and how to kick out BN.
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written by teo siew chin, June 25, 2009 09:10:49
religion
football
politics
since when do disagreements on the above ever ends?
i hate religion, i hate football, i hate politics - do i have a right to express my 'hate' if my comprehension on the subject matter is limited?
i most certainly do BUT as in every thing i say or do, I must be fully and solely responsible and not let OTHERS suffer the consequences.

Those of us who comment on MT have to always bear in mind it is Yang Mulia Raja Petra who takes our crap and suffer for it - and the one who dont care 2 hoots about that has serious issues about basic human decency.
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written by Rozlan, June 25, 2009 09:39:08
There are no total freedom.In Europe with their socalled free expression had it limitation also.We are not allowed to questioned WW2 jewish Holocaust.A British writer had been jailed in Austria for arguing it.We are not allowed to wear Hitler clothes and salute like Nazi.Prince Harry of England was criticized heavily by the media for wearing it in the custome party..

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written by tanwi, June 25, 2009 10:03:16
interesting article. Dont forget that you have also made accusations against the current PM but do not have any evidence to back this up till today. Until you do, what you have been putting as a statement is baseless (or defamatory). This itself may have given some people the belief that they can write whatever they wish down here. Dont get me wrong, i do think what you did was brave and daring although the element of wise cannot only be complimented to you once you produce the evidence.

I think Steven wrote something with little research but dont seem the point victimising him. I agree with the above statement that you have not linked the bomb in the plane situation with Hyde Park or also Steven's comments.
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written by batsman, June 25, 2009 11:37:14
Dear chokma – I agree that the issue of calling nons immigrants should not be raised. It is only done by racists supporting a policy of divide and rule. However having said that, it must be pointed out that there are differences between calling a religion names and calling a race names. One is a bigot and the other is a racist even if there is often an overlap. By the same token, there are differences between calling a religion names and calling political trends names, eg. calling those enamoured with the BBC dummies is quite OK. This ability to apply judgement is the difference between adults who are able to compromise and get along with each other and children who don’t know better. It is the difference between maturity and childishness. I suspect this is one of the reasons why RKP calls some people childish. Sadly secularity has made modern Malaysians quite unable to tell the difference unlike the old days when there was more respect and more consideration.

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written by aeromaverick, June 25, 2009 12:53:09
Dear Pete,

A certain degree of sophistication is required from readers to comment in a enlightened manner. Most of these closet racists are acting as Pseodo-secularists.
Unfortunately, as you mentioned earlier, most of us read a bit here and there; head and or tail, and then comments in various online forums, thinking we are already enlightened enough to educate the rest of the world.
The sad thing is, many think they are, but are far from it actually.
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written by son of soil, June 25, 2009 14:57:42
Dear Fendyoasisand RPK,
Please give me your view on this issue, a non-muslim falls in love with a muslim but do not want to convert cause he/she does not want to commit the greartest sin,betraying their parents.
Should this union out of true love be torn apart by religious boundaries?I have many friends who have converted but does not practise the religion,their justification is that they love the person not the religion she/he proffeses.Have we matured enough to segregate, love between a man an a woman from their religion
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written by garfunky, June 25, 2009 15:16:56
Ok,

I know I'm not writing a letter to be published like Shiou Loh, but do read on.

In my humble opinion, we cannot apply typical "Freedom of Expression" rules here, either for or against. For the politically correct, I don't mean you simply CANNOT apply those rules, but I mean before you do, the important thing to bear in mind is that this is the INTERNET.

Here, it is freedom of expression by default, truly no holds barred, where anonymity reigns supreme. Unlike in the real world where freedom of expression is given out bit by bit, in this realm, freedom has to be taken away bit by bit.

Having a say in MT can be likened to a person speaking on the evening news from behind a curtain while using a fake-voice box. How else can you voice your opinion without the consequence of others finding out your name, personal details, or even gender??

I hope you follow me. Now, back to the issue.

Although I would gladly champion the right to exercise freedom of expression, I do not believe it should be free. Whatever you say SHOULD have consequences.

In the real world, this is automatically applicable since you can put a face to the offender and the offendee. Putting yourself out there inhibits your words and actions, mostly limiting them to less-offensive material. But on the internet, there are no faces, not even voices. There are no consequences.

And leaving things as they are will not help fix anything. We are in a very unique period of time, when the internet is still new, and its usage is being thoroughly abused (piracy, hacking, spamming, flaming). I believe the future will see two types of online communities.

The "First World" community will be well versed in internet ethics and inconsiderate users will not be punished by the site admin but by the other users who will unanimously rebuke him.

The "Third World" Community will be a more ignorant and offensive lot. The site admin will be busy setting up more and more rules, while increasing security. warnings, flagging and banning will be an everyday affair.

What kind of community would you like MT to be?
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written by fendyoasis, June 25, 2009 16:26:16
Dear son of soil,
This is just my view..but then I would like to go back that RPK once wrote an article that says that it is OK for a muslim guy to marry a Christian girl...and I support such edict as well, but it is forbidden in Malaysia. Now thats a different matter, but I just wanna say that Islam allows it and I agree with RPK on this. Anyway to be precise a guy marrying the people of the book is allowed, some muslims may not agree but thats a different discussion altogether.

Now let say for the sake of argument, it is not allowed, or OK, lets say U are in love with a buddhist, i would ask then, who do U love more? God or that person? Sometimes U need to sacrifice for the greater good. Everyone of us do like stuff that are bad, it is for u to discipline urself. U know the case of the New Zealand ( I think its New Zealand) couple who miraculously got millions of dollars in their bank account? Now the right thing to do is to give the money back to the bank coz the bank made a mistake, but then what they did was clear out the account and migrate to another country. My point is, U like money so much that U would break the law to have the money.

U love ur lover so much that you would sacrifice ur love for God for ur lover? I hope u get what im trying to say.

In the case of a non muslim loves their parents so much that they dont wanna convert to Islam, then this is the argument then, do they love God or love the parents more? in other words do they believe in the God that they suppose to be in love with? I do heard stories like this, but because they love Islam they converted anyway but at the same time trying to make the parents understand why he or she is converting in the first place.

In the end we are not forcing anyone to convert, but if U leave, then there will be punishment.
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written by bebas2lawat, June 25, 2009 16:46:07
I believe there is no such thing as total freedom of speech. Speech is circumscibed by certain rules of engagement. So lets all remember that while we can say what we want this is always with the limits of the boundaries of good and decent behaviour. I certainly do not agree that this portal should be allowed to be used as a sounding board for anyone to say what he /she thinks. Pls think before you type smilies/angry.gif
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written by lampard, June 25, 2009 17:31:16
Dear Pete,
What do you expect? Not all great minds think alike! If everyone is in sync with your topic and state of mind, no one would read your post in the first place!

Won't you agree that's why your forum is so interesting??? LOL!!!

Carmen Frank
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written by AsamLaksa, June 25, 2009 18:18:57
The world is not ready for absolute freedom of speech. Limitations are set mainly so that people won't harm another. Nevertheless I am an idealist so I say we should strive for absolute freedom of speech where everyone can say anything they want but in a responsible manner.

What does this responsibility mean? To begin with, understand that words have great power and like Stan Lee says, with great power comes great responsibility. Use the words for constructive reasons, not foam at the mouth. Admit mistakes sincerely and correct them. Seek information to avoid hollow arguments. At the end of it, we won't need censors, laws or moderators because in the ideal situation the regulators are yourselves (Yup, Taoist mumbo-jumbo).

This is what I strive for though still a very long way to go. There's only so much that I can know in a lifetime but as boundaries to information fall further, everyday is a step towards this ideal, unless we detract ourselves from it.

So for now, I put up with the limitations on freedom of speech because it is needed rather than it being good.
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written by shahidan, June 25, 2009 18:49:52
The postings above prove the point that the commentary section in MT is a near monopoly of those who simply are incapable of respecting the ‘other’.
Quite absurd justifications are being trotted out to justify racist and bigoted commentary in response to RPK’s appeal. One contributor even smears all MT commentators for being racist and bigoted to some degree to justify his own racist and bigoted comments.
We all need to remind ourselves that you can’t defeat racist ideology by pouring forth more racist poison into the environment. Neither do you defeat religious bigotry with your own bigotry. There is a tipping point when the poison becomes accepted as ‘normal’ and there is no turning back from the abyss.
Super Admin will be well advised to conduct a survey and establish in what way these commentaries can be deemed to be a value adding factor to the site. So long as these standard comments monopolise the bandwidth, as they overwhelmingly do, I think at best the more thoughtful will avoid writing to the commentary segment of MT, note LChuah’s comments. The more likely outcome, though, is to legitimize and make the language of race hate and religious bigotry the standard ‘discourse’. As a matter of fact, the number of commentators on MT is miniscule compared to those who visit and read, but their comments neither throw light on the issues under discussion nor are they meant to enlighten. The commentary section has been turned into a cesspool of race hate messages.
If only some twenty to thirty percent of commentators were respectful of their fellow contributors by writing relevant non-abusive thoughts, a critical mass would have been established to roll back the negativity that these racist commentaries bring to MT.
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written by son of soil, June 25, 2009 19:09:09
Thank you, fendyoasis for your view...why do we need to merge the love of god and love of a human being as one?How to decide which love is greater...parent,spouse or god? cause we were brought up,with the notion that love is wholesome and unconditional.
When you say you will be punish if you leave....who will decide society or God?
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written by fendyoasis, June 25, 2009 22:44:28
son,
If U steal who would punish U? God? Humans? Ourselves? If U get caught U will be punished by society, means prisons, fines, etc

Love for God should be greater than anything else..that is why when PAS members identify themselves, we are muslims first and malays second. (If the Pas member is Malay of course)
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written by shiokguy, June 25, 2009 23:40:02
Alternative View on Religion

What if my belief http://shiokguy.********.com/2...igion.html is right? Aren't we all so so stupid to worship someone who create us in order to destroy us at the end?

Shiok Guy
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written by son of soil, June 26, 2009 10:21:50
Thank you...fendyoasis, we have prove to all the bigots,racists and religious fanatics that we Malaysian are matured enough to discuss about religion.
Well for me i identify myself as human being first... Malaysian second than the rest.
Salam Sejahtera
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written by fendyoasis, June 26, 2009 10:40:53
ur welcome son of soil...great talking to you. Guess this issue is coming to an end.

PS. I still regard myself as muslims first and Malaysian second though.
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written by Steven Ong, June 26, 2009 13:28:35
Dear Pete, SORRY that I have angered you, my apology to you. Yes, I have side track from your posting on 'hijrah'. As a supplementary question, I only want your opinions and explanation on certain versus that I suppose came from Islam. What is the 'negative perception' of certain verses in the Quran, Hadith and S...??? that seems to be questioned by others in doubt of Islam?

Yes, you did not claimed that Islam is best, and you are even branded a traitor to the some Muslim in Malaysia. But many claimed that Islam is the best, even today I saw a picture ( in Metro paper ) of a demonstration with the poster describing that '' Islam is Peace''. How do one explain the daily bombing in Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan? As I said , by the fruits one shall know the tree. And many Muslim, even in MT posting, trying very hard to defend Islam.

Pete you branded me equivalent to Hitler and Saddam? Not a single foul or slanderous word did I uttered in the Internet as compared to the many negative and foul words posted in MT and other places. My reasoning is that if we are humble and willing to understand and to explain ( seek first to understand then to be understood )each and every topics under the sun, then this world would be a much better place. I did not mean to say that Islam is totally bad, but only some of the verses and the negative actions by some Muslim. Until then my doubt that 'Islam is Peace' if I cannot commend about it.

This is out of your topic, but its about freedom of speech isn't it?
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written by toorikakari, June 27, 2009 02:20:20
Dear RPK and fellow readers,

I have been following Malaysia Today and have been enjoying myself. Firstly, we have an alternate view to issues. Secondly, comments from readers do really enlighten our understanding from different perspectives as it enhances our knowledge and consequently, our reasoning skills. Thirdly, we have Raja Petra who not only exhibit patience as well as trying his best to bridge the gap between different readers. Imagine, this website is read by people of different walks of life, hence, comprehension of life issues may be different.

Bridging the gap is not easy, with different mind sets and upbringing.

As i see it, some of the readers here are out to vent their frustrations. This will lead this site to no where. There are also some in this room, who speaks outside the issues raised. To complicate matters, questions are posed back to RPK for his answers which are more relevantly answered by others. If there are questions regarding Islam, do refer them to an Ustaz or Ustazah. It is not fair to indundate RPK with it and expect him to reply.

Do keep this site, well for its purpose. As i have said it before, we do not want BN supporters to say that we are just another scumb, making lots of noice and most of the time out of topic.

Just my humble opinion. Thanks
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written by Fairminded, June 29, 2009 11:14:58
Religion is a very emmotional issue, and even RPK succumbs to it. I suggest that M2day build in a filter that automatically filter out any articles, comments etc that contain names of religions and their prophets. In this way we have a clear separation of state and religion. Welcome to the "Brave New World" by George Owell.
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