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Monday, 28 January 2008 14:12

Undeniably, our beliefs and prejudices are influenced by the environment we are brought up in. The era we live in also plays a very important part in all this. 250 years ago I would not be running Malaysia Today. Instead, I would be holding a keris in my hand and would be leading an army to oust the government and replace it with a better government.

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NO HOLDS BARRED

Raja Petra Kamarudin

RPK, I have a simple experiment for you to prove that what we said is a whole bunch of baloney.

Please ask your lovely wife Ms. Marina why she converted to Islam?

Then ask her again:

1) If you were a Christian will she convert?

2) If you were a Jew will she convert?

3) If you were Chinese will she convert?

4) If you were an atheist will she convert?

5) Lastly, tell us if you are mama boy and mama said no to Islam will she convert?

If she can give you the same answer every time, then she is a true believer of Islam.

written by Semuaok, January 28, 2008 | 00:11:42 (with editing of grammatical/spelling errors)

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Dear Semuaok, I really don't know what you are going on about and what your five questions have to do with the subject matter, which is Malaysia is a failed state. Anyway, so as to not give you the impression I am at a loss for words, in 1973, my wife Mabel was informed by the Imam Besar of the Masjid Negara that since she is a Catholic she need not convert to Islam just to marry me. She can remain a Catholic and still marry me. Not being a practicing Muslim myself, other than the fact I was merely born a Muslim, I did not insist she convert and was very happy to maintain status quo. After all, I did enjoy escorting her to church on Christmas Eve and Christmas was a family tradition on my mother's side of the family, though it was never regarded as a religious affair - sort of like New Year's Eve. (We actually went to church to look at the girls, if you know what I mean).

To cut a long story even longer, she wanted to convert on her own free will and later some of her cousins and their entire family, plus her mother (my mother-in-law), converted as well - although I had no plans to marry any of them, so you can't blame this on marriage. Some of her cousins remained Catholics while her sister and family remained Buddhists. My wife, Mabel, took on the 'Muslim' name Marina, which is not quite a Muslim name as such. But then, in that sense, neither is my name Petra a Muslim name as well. The name Marina was suggested by the wife of the then Deputy Chief of the Special Branch, Raja Adnan Raja Abdullah, my brother's father-in-law.

I really did not live the life of a Muslim so I honestly can't say that I set a good example for her to follow and that she became 'attracted' to Islam because of me. Actually, I could be regarded as a very bad Muslim and it would make sense that my example should have put her off from converting to Islam. Anyway, she wanted to convert on her own free will and without any prompting from me and in spite of the Imam Besar of the Masjid Negara telling her that she need not convert.

They say those who are born Muslims have a very shallow knowledge of Islam while the 'Orientalists' and converts seem to study Islam in greater depth and have a better understanding of the religion. After all, when you are born a Muslim you are sent to religious and Quran recital classes at a very tender age and at that age you are just taught to follow, obey and believe without doubts and without question. All you need to do is attend Friday prayers at any mosque and you will hear the imam preach that we must not question, doubt or dispute what the guru tells us as that would go against Islamic teachings. We are also taught that we must always learn religion from a 'human' guru and never alone from 'non-human' books because if we do then the devil (shaitan) will become our guru.

Invariably, because of this 'understanding' of Islam, Muslims shy away from conducting research and would rather sit cross-legged on the floor of the mosque and absorb anything and everything that the religious teachers tell us without debate or question. We assume that the guru knows what he is talking about and to question, dispute or doubt what is being taught would cause us to be led astray.

The so-called 'Golden Age of Islam' was actually during the time of Harun Al Rashid. This was the time of innovation and invention. In the era when Europe still believed that headaches are caused by the devil entering our head, the Muslims diagnosed headaches as brain tumours. In the era when Europeans summoned priests to exorcise the devils from our heads, the Muslims performed brain surgery to remove the tumour. Irrigation, clocks, 'modern' weapons of war, etc., were invented by the Muslims. The Europeans then had no notion of precise time while the Muslims invented clocks that used water to drive the mechanism which could tell time to the nearest second. Arid desert land were irrigated using mechanical pumps and soon became fertile enough to support agriculture. And so on and so forth.

Of course, not all inventions were from scratch and not all the scientists were Muslims. Some were Jews or Christians living in Muslim lands. The Muslims went to China to learn how to make gunpowder, but while the Chinese used gunpowder for 'entertainment' purposes such as in firecrackers and fireworks, the Muslims used gunpowder to make cannons and whacked the shit out of the Crusaders who were merely using swords and bow-and-arrows. Saladin or Sallahuddin was not a brilliant general as much as he was aided by 'modern' technology to defeat the Europeans and capture Palestine.

Eventually, a conflict arose between the ruling elite, who were seen as not Islamic enough, and the members of the cloth. The conflict was finally settled with an agreement that religion would come under the jurisdiction of the ulamak while the ruling elite would just run the state. The ulamak decided on the laws and on what would be regarded as right and wrong. That, basically, was how the Shariah came into being although the Islamists would dispute this opinion and would insist that the Shariah existed since the time of Prophet Muhammad.

The ulamak eventually prohibited innovation and called it bidaah and that was the beginning of the end for Muslim technology. If I can be so bold as to say at the risk of my head getting separated from my shoulders that the ulamak 'killed' Islam. The Europeans mastered Arabic and went to Muslim Spain to learn from the Muslims. They then went back to Europe and translated all the Arabic books into western languages. While the Muslims slid backwards because of the prohibition on innovation (bidaah), the Europeans innovated even further and propelled forwards. Today, Muslim countries can't even make a plastic cup and all are in the category of failed states.

Anyway, to cut a long story even longer, my wife, now called Marina, learned how to recite the Quran from Tok Guru Haji Abbas Khatib Muhammad, a man most would know if they hail from Kuala Ibai, home of the famous 'floating' mosque south of Kuala Terengganu. She also read Hadith Sahih Bukhari and Kitab Imam Ghazzali, basically recommended reading for those who want to become 'proper' Muslims.

But there was one problem in all this though. In spite of the ten or so trips she made to Mekah and the various readings and religious classes she attended, my wife had been brought up to think, unlike the 'born' Muslims who have been taught to accept and believe without question, dispute or debate. So she read more. And she researched. And we both sat for long hours with dozens of books spread out across the bed to refer and cross-refer the various and different opinions on what Islam really teaches and what Islam is all about.

My wife pointed out to me the verse in the Quran that says do not accept anything without verification. She also pointed out the verse that asked do we want to merely follow the majority belief and justify this with the excuse that we just followed what our ancestors believed before us whereas our ancestors were wrong? She then read books written by both Muslims as well as 'Orientalists' (who sometimes do better research and know more about Islam than even Muslims themselves) to get a wider and more balanced view on Islam. She and I would spend hours at the bookshops scouring the bookshelves in search of books that would satisfy our lust for more knowledge.

One book she read, which is in fact a very popular book, related how one day the Prophet's wife got accidentally left in the desert when she went to answer the call of nature and the caravan went off without realising she was not around. This book was trying to explain how the animosity between the Prophet's son-in-law cum cousin, Ali, and the Prophet's youngest wife, Aishah, came about. A young, handsome Arab happened to pass by and saw the frantic Aishah marooned in the desert and he immediately recognised her as one of the Prophet's wives although he had never met her before. He recognised her as one of the Prophet's wives because she wore a tudung and only the Prophet's wives wore tudungs.

The young, handsome Arab came to Aishah's rescue and the following day she was reunited with the caravan which by then had realised she was missing and had stopped, wondering what they should do. Aishah was missing for one whole night and when she rode up the next morning with this young, handsome Arab this started tongues wagging. Eventually, the whole of Medina was gossiping about the 'affair' Aishah had with the young, handsome Arab and Ali pressured the Prophet to divorce her to protect his reputation. Muhammad was a Prophet and he could not afford people gossiping about his 'unfaithful' wife. Invariably, this was how the animosity between Ali and Aishah started and later, when Ali became the Fourth Caliph, Aishah led an army from Mekah to attack Ali in Medina. The tragedy to this whole thing is that this animosity still exists even after 1,400 years. And this is one of the reasons for the conflict between the Shiahs and the Sunnis that has taken millions of lives in the many Muslim versus Muslim wars since the time of Ali-Aishah.

This was not a story about whether Muslim women should wear tudungs. It was a story about what led to the War of the Camel fought between Ali and Aishah. But my wife did not miss that part about the young, handsome Arab man immediately recognising Aishah as one of the Prophet's wives because of the tudung she wore and that only the Prophet's wives wore tudungs. My wife then read what the Quran said about women having to wear tudungs and the verses in the Quran she came across spoke about covering your bosom and that when you talk to any of the Prophet's wives you must 'screen' yourself and not gaze into their eyes.

Okay, I have dragged this long story far enough and will now address your questions, Semuaok. I really do not know whether my wife would have converted to Islam had I been born a Christian, Jew, Chinese, Indian, Atheist, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. Maybe she would or maybe she wouldn't have. Who can say? But I do know she is a better-read Muslim than many 'born' Muslims. Furthermore, many have converted to Islam not because of marriage but for other reasons such as because they have studied many religions and finally decided that Islam is the best choice. How did they come to that decision that Islam is the best choice whereas others feel that Islam is in fact the worst choice (probably you included)?

These people are not farmers or fishermen but are in fact very intelligent and well-educated people. Surely they are able to think. And with that super-brain they still chose Islam? How do we explain this? Can we say that these people are not really that clever after all or that Islam is really the better religion and these people know it? How do we answer this question? A religious person would argue that God moved their hearts and a Muslim would say that God showed them the correct path. But if you are not religious or not a Muslim you would not accept this argument as valid.

I can't speak for my wife, Semuaok, but I can certainly testify that had I been born in Sweden to a Christian family I would most definitely not be born a Muslim. Pure common sense can tell you that and you need not go to a religious school to understand this. And had I been born in Saudi Arabia or Iran then I would most likely be a Wahhabi Muslim or a Shiah Muslim respectively. However, had I been born in Sweden or China or Tibet or wherever, and whether I would later leave the religion of my parents and convert to Islam is a question no one, if they are honest with themselves, can answer.

Undeniably, our beliefs and prejudices are influenced by the environment we are brought up in. The era we live in also plays a very important part in all this. 250 years ago I would not be running Malaysia Today. Instead, I would be holding a keris in my hand and would be leading an army to oust the government and replace it with a better government. That was how my ancestors lived their lives and I have no reason to suspect I would be any different. I have a terrible temper, as did all my ancestors before me, so, just like my ancestors, I will not take any crap from anyone. The Internal Security Act did not come into law until 1960 but 15 years before that one of my grandfathers, Raja Musa (Moses), was exiled to the Cocos Islands in the Indian Ocean for opposing the government. Even earlier than that another of my ancestors, Raja Haji, died fighting the Dutch in Melaka. The Dutch honoured him with the title Raja Api (Prince of Fire) in spite of him being 'the enemy'. And many of his great-grandfathers and grandfathers before that died fighting the Siamese and the other superpowers of that era.

Of course, that was then, when fighting governments and superpowers was a noble and manly thing to do. And plundering the Dutch and British ships was an honourable profession and women would swoon over you and fall over each other to become one of your twenty wives. Today, they would hang me by the neck until I die or lock me away in Kamunting and throw away the key. Anyway, I don't think I want to die plundering British ships in the Straits of Melaka.

I have said this before in one of my previous articles and I will say it again: when and where you were born will determine what you become. As I also said, I would like to be more than just a Blogger. I would like to be at the head of an army that topples this government. But that does not work any more. Today, we have elections and democratically-elected governments. So that is how we shall have to change the government in spite of the elections being heavily rigged in favour of the ruling party. And as to whether my wife would today be a Muslim if not for the fact that she met me and later we got married, hey, I don't even know whether you would be asking me that question had you been born in Java and came to this country in a boat to look for work in one of the construction sites. Some things in life will have to remain a mystery. Maybe someone, somewhere, threw the dice so now we are what we are. Who knows?

Comments (146)Add Comment
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written by Birdbrain, January 28, 2008 14:31:16
Malaysian Muslim Hotel rules; you can check in but you can never check out!

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written by joseph81, January 28, 2008 14:34:00
Whatever religion u have, please don't hold a Quaran/Bible in one hand and a kris/dagger in the other hand, that's the upmost evil as innocent people will be caught offguard
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written by Birdbrain, January 28, 2008 14:44:37
Not being a practicing Muslim myself, other than the fact I was merely born a Muslim........

So simple to be a muslim.......hmmmm!
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written by sickofitall, January 28, 2008 14:53:29
YM RPK
I, a malaysia born chinese muslim professional wholeheartedly agree with you!
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written by RasuahMinister, January 28, 2008 15:12:08
Damn, the ulamak killed Islam
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written by RasuahMinister, January 28, 2008 15:18:59
Undeniably, our beliefs and prejudices are influenced by the environment we are brought up in.


Unfortunately those peoples that brains equally intelligent as animal could not understand
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written by azure, January 28, 2008 15:26:12
RPK, The problem is the guru do not know what they are talking about most of the time. Now i know why some of my Muslim friends feel, talk and act the way they do.
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written by Thomas47, January 28, 2008 15:27:56
YM RPK,

As a Muslim convert, I hope some of my non-Muslim friends who have been pestering me for answers on why I converted and embraced Islam as my way of life, will have the opportunity to read your article.

Thanks for posting your article.
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written by The dragonheart, January 28, 2008 15:35:12
Birdbrain,

Yes..So simple to be a muslim... A turkey cannot lay goose eggs, but surely the turkey can hatched the goose egg.. But all these birds have small brains, they cannot understand to behave like the new parent are....
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written by The dragonheart, January 28, 2008 15:36:50
RasuahMinister,

Which ulamak are you referring to?
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written by speakofthemind, January 28, 2008 16:30:15
What a wise thought indeed, "when and where you were born will determine what you become."
Saying this, you would also become what you choose to become.
One thought today, could be a life changing moment tomorrow !
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written by teo siew chin, January 28, 2008 16:53:02
Dear Yang Mulia Raja Petra

Both you and your wife complement each other - I'm sure she is the music that soothes the savage beast in you! smilies/grin.gif

And that is one fine woman you got there - one who does not blindly accept, who does research to find the right answers and through it all remains in quiet dignity in the background. If you ever accidently leave her in the desert, I'll come twack YOU.

"Maybe someone, somewhere, threw a dice ..." - uh huh, so if the die is cast, what's the point eh!
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written by pseudoangel, January 28, 2008 16:56:54
The so-called 'Golden Age of Islam' was actually during the time of Harun Al Rashid. This was the time of innovation and invention. In the era when Europe still believed that headaches are caused by the devil entering our head, the Muslims diagnosed headaches as brain tumours. In the era when Europeans summoned priests to exorcise the devils from our heads, the Muslims performed brain surgery to remove the tumour.


yes.

totally agree. there was the time when Islam is really in their Golden Age. Now, we can only read that in history books.

However, the problem is, Muslims nowadays keep on claiming how good and how intelligent they were in the ancient days, keep having all kinds of exhibition on their invention...

but we never heard of any Muslim scientist has any breakthrough anymore in our modern days.
If we talk about major scientific breakthrough nowadays, we'll never think or link it to Muslim scientist.
where was the spirit of innovation and invention? keep looking at the past is not the way to glorified Islam. on the other hand, when people talk about anything bad or terrorism.... people will always link them to Muslims.

Rabbit out run the turtle... but instead of keep staying ahead, rabbit sleeps under the tree...
Turtle won the race in the end. Isn't the story sounds familiar to you?
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written by Baronshah, January 28, 2008 17:00:42
YM Pete,

Thank you for
This beautifully written thought provoking article.

Best wishes
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written by tcng, January 28, 2008 17:16:37
RPK wrote : "These people are not farmers or fishermen but are in fact very intelligent and well-educated people. Surely they are able to think. And with that super-brain they still chose Islam? How do we explain this? " Unquote"

Heard of Mormon? Among the believers today, there are many highly educated, PHD holders and successful businesman.. yet, they believe in the story of Joseph Smith Jr.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/12/19/smith_bicentennial_renewing_debate_over_mormon_founder/)

My view is that highly educated person is not necessary means people who think rationalely.

Does Einstein/Newton/Darwin believe in GOD-the creator? probably yes.... but I doubt they take what is in Bible as literally true.
Anyone who believe in any Holy Scripture (Bible, Quran or Jew's scripture) as literally true are not thinking rationalely.

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written by Sophia, January 28, 2008 17:25:54
Being a free-haired Muslim woman, I often get lambasted when my opinions doesn't correlate with commonly held perception of Islam. We are born Muslims, but does it matter anyways, the trivial petty fights that we have among ourselves? In the end, the only judgment that matters is God's, not ours.

Therefore, all of us who question must have faith in our own intellect.
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written by densemy, January 28, 2008 17:41:10
... and its my bet that the converts were influenced by the values of Islam and not by its practices as you recently pointed out are the Malaysian's gauge of being a good muslim

"The ulamak eventually prohibited innovation and called it bidaah and that was the beginning of the end for Muslim technology. If I can be so bold as to say at the risk of my head getting separated from my shoulders that the ulamak 'killed' Islam."

... and they are still killing it... but now its all about control and power rather than values
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written by Yacob, January 28, 2008 17:51:58
YM RPK,

Sometimes, I feel that you are better than many other ustaz.
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written by cruzeiro, January 28, 2008 17:52:48
Does Einstein/Newton/Darwin believe in GOD-the creator? probably yes.... but I doubt they take what is in Bible as literally true.
Anyone who believe in any Holy Scripture (Bible, Quran or Jew's scripture) as literally true are not thinking rationalely.
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Agree with you on that!
Brings to mind the Big Bang Theory put forward by Georges Lemaître who was a priest ... and many more scientific discoveries by the "christian" clergy .....

I really wonder why they don't talk about their achievements as the Christian Golden Age, while all the others were in the dark about the discoveries.

Well I guess they know better than to look for religious glory in scientific discoveries ....
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written by cruzeiro, January 28, 2008 17:58:51
... and they are still killing it... but now its all about control and power rather than values

=========================

Yes.

It is also about "numbers" and Money too ...

It works that way when the "clergy" vie for political power - no matter where, no matter which religion.
Such is the corrupting influence of politics, that the clergy needs to be prevented from - an only secularism can do that.
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written by cwwong, January 28, 2008 18:05:18
yes.

totally agree. there was the time when Islam is really in their Golden Age. Now, we can only read that in history books.

However, the problem is, Muslims nowadays keep on claiming how good and how intelligent they were in the ancient days, keep having all kinds of exhibition on their invention...

but we never heard of any Muslim scientist has any breakthrough anymore in our modern days.
If we talk about major scientific breakthrough nowadays, we'll never think or link it to Muslim scientist.
where was the spirit of innovation and invention? keep looking at the past is not the way to glorified Islam. on the other hand, when people talk about anything bad or terrorism.... people will always link them to Muslims.

Rabbit out run the turtle... but instead of keep staying ahead, rabbit sleeps under the tree...
Turtle won the race in the end. Isn't the story sounds familiar to you?



Can we just leave out the word Muslim (or any other religion) as an adjective? What's the point of "Christian child", "Muslim scientist" or any religion this and relion that? It's kinda stupid. Just accept that a child is a child, a scientist is a scientist. Just see the things as it is. The world can be a lot more simpler and less complicated.
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written by cruzeiro, January 28, 2008 18:10:14
But I was glad to hear that Perak Mufti said the cloned meat of a Halal animal is halal!

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written by RichPoon, January 28, 2008 18:12:31
i don't understand what semuaok is getting at....he asks too many questions of a personal nature....surely what you truly believe in is between you and god whatever religion you follow..you owe no one an explanation why you chose a particular faith....and we should respect one another for that.
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written by astina, January 28, 2008 18:35:29
"Imam Besar of the Masjid Negara that since she is a Catholic she need not convert to Islam just to marry me"

Thats an interesting statement.

YM RPK or anyone else...please answer the following questions as i am little confused.

1. Is this actually allowed? If yes, would our current administration go along with this line ?

2. Is it meant only for the fairer sex?


Thank you
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written by cruzeiro, January 28, 2008 18:53:48
astina,

Of course it is only reserved for the fairer sex ...
Why would they wanna allow it for men?

I donno about Hadharism, tho' ....... smilies/sad.gif
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written by cruzeiro, January 28, 2008 18:58:10
It is about being the head of the family being a Muslim - patriarchal of sorts ...
The man holds the fort in family, where Islam is concerned.

(But I hear that some big shot leaders in Malaysia get humiliated in "public" by their wives - I donno how far that is true lah ...)
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written by atheistconvert, January 28, 2008 18:59:01

RPK, is it then fair for me to say that your lovely Marina accepted islam after studying much about the religion? has she read up as much on other religions? is it not possible that she would have decided to convert to another religion if she had? or rather is it not possible that she could convert to another religion if she decides to do as much research with an open mind as she did on islam? does she accept evolution as scientific fact? perhaps she would be interested to read up more on science. perhaps she would consider converting to atheism afterward. no? perhaps you would still feel it acceptable to embrace science and religion at the same time - which mean you'll have to forego many literal interpretations of the holy books, but other believers will consider that as heresy.
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written by SBennit, January 28, 2008 19:07:31
Astina

Yes, the fairer sex do not need to convert. It says so somewhere in the Koran.

Its not an issue with the current administration, nor was it an issue with past regimes.

This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it
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written by malaysian2008, January 28, 2008 19:19:10
"Undeniably, our beliefs and prejudices are influenced by the environment we are brought up in. The era we live in also plays a very important part "

In Malaysia, our version of Islam is not in the "belief" but regulatoed and in the hand of the religious officer or the many difference state,many different rules & guideline for the muslim to follow.

The most recent unbeliveable case is - The Gan Eng Gor body-snatching episode - a dead, stroke patient 74 yo chinese man , never in his life read quaran/arabic, in the paralyse state taking care by all the eating pork family ,still being believe to be converted to be a mulims, by the so call religiuos officer and the syariah court. Are these religious men want to fill up the muslim cementary with more buddist/hindu/christan dead bodies, to make it a multi racial/multi religious cementay ?

As in all religions, we are talking of faith and believe in it, not force it, born it, and covert for the sake of convert. Worst still "dead body-snatching".

I has seen many "born muslim" , they drink brandy,gambling,fxxxxxg here and there,cheating,coruption etc etc; they go to masjid sembayang, they claims they are muslim. These muslim are weak believer. they don't belief and have faith in their religion. they are born. they can't throw away the muslim title b'cos in malaysia it is - once in no out. but why claim a muslim and acts the reverse. doesn't it make the religion very bad, at least look BAD.

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written by johanssm, January 28, 2008 19:24:06
Malaysian dont need "very good muslims".
We just need good people and people with logical thinking.
I can say we prefers to have bad muslims with good leadership qualities.
The is the "goodness" of a good muslim if the person is a bad leader.
A good example is bodowi, he claims " saya muslim yang baik".
Baik apa?
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written by GermanMachine, January 28, 2008 19:24:13
Very true RPK. A true Muslim is the one who embrace by choice and not by birth. Ever wonder why we see more Chinese or Indian converting to Christianity, Taoist, Buddist, Hindu etc or vice versa but never see many from these two communities flocking to become Muslim? Because like the first comment here - you can check-in but can never check-out, and those who choose not to check-out are mostly having ulterior motives such as position, preferences and financial gain but never for the true essence of the teaching. The government has made a mockery out of Islam.
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written by educationist, January 28, 2008 20:11:56
The throw of a dice - that has been one of life's unamswered question throughout the ages. No one has come back from the dead to reveal once and for all why are we here for really. So various religions and schools of thoughts have evolved each catering to a certain segment of the world's population. But, down to earth now and back to our own Malaysia, even if you are not at the head of an army brandishing a keris, your blog will be remembered in years to come as instrumental in denying BN that 2/3 majority this coming elections.
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written by the saint, January 28, 2008 20:35:01
Boycot The Sun ! It has beenbought over by Vincent Tan. Only fair media left are the alternative electronic media. Everyone should BOYCOT The Sun !
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written by Angela Ooi, January 28, 2008 20:54:39
It really doesn't matter what religion you are except that you are decent human being. Our MUSLIM leaders proudly declare they are ready to die for Islam but their behaviour shows they are bad people who completely tarnish Islam. These are the ones hat ought to be stoned to death.
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written by GermanMachine, January 28, 2008 20:55:11
written by the saint, January 28, 2008 | 20:35:01

Boycot The Sun !

-------------------------------
Bro don't jump the gun. Let's give those honest people in The Sun a chance before even utter boycot.
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written by gundohing, January 28, 2008 21:20:50
A Muslim can marry a catholic. Yes that what we were taught in religous schools in the late 60's. Which unfortunately we never hear of it nowadays. Probably the Majlis Agama is worried about dealing with the complications of the child's religion and the saperate jurisdiction of the courts.
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written by EYFF, January 28, 2008 22:45:52
RPK wrote “in 1973, my wife Mabel was informed by the Imam Besar of the Masjid Negara that since she is a Catholic she need not convert to Islam just to marry me. She can remain a Catholic and still marry me.”

Thanks RPK for confirming what I had been commenting on all along! Pity you did not inform Dato Mansor in time (when RTM never show his wife)!

I am glad for you both that you do not know Arabic, and couldn’t read the “original” Koran and be scandalized!

Please continue to enjoy the sugarcoated translation !
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written by OrdinaryMan, January 29, 2008 00:06:23
Dear RPK,

Your article is certainly very interesting. But now I am VERY CONFUSED. I quote your statement:

“We are also taught that we must always learn religion from a 'human' guru and never alone from 'non-human' books because if we do then the devil (shaitan) will become our guru.”

I wonder where the ‘human guru’ got his knowledge. From another ‘human guru’? And so forth, ad infinitum… Then, where the heck does the Koran (which, I presume, is a book) come into the picture?

Cheers!
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written by temanmu, January 29, 2008 00:50:22
RPK, thanks for the really personal perspective.

BTW, attending church to look at girls is therapeutic(!) ... that I must agree! I don't think a guy can achieve that in a mosque unless one is errr... likes guys. Women are segregated & covered up!

Also, US presidential candidate Barrack Hussein Obama is a murtad! His father & step-father is /was Muslim! I

I wonder whether Saudi Arabia, Iran or Malaysia will impose the death penalty on him!!!

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written by alee, January 29, 2008 03:38:26
Election is imminent. We as Malaysian who love this country must do something to save this country from destruction by the corrupt politicians.

CAllING ALL READERS OF MT,let's use SMS to spread the education. We should take the important points from MT articles, condense them into SMS and send out chain SMS. We should have all all language versions. Encourage everyone to send to everyone else.

We must reach out to all Malaysians, especially the people in the kampongs and new villages !! Let's start today !!
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written by Zainal, January 29, 2008 04:08:33
RPK, I read and re-read this article of yours and i see many truth. I think the malays here and most probably on this entire planet earth now are not muslims, but they think so. Islam just doesnt exist anymore, in reality. Its only history! Reading the Quran in the language that we understand will prove that. And that includes me! Ha ha ha. Well, at least i know that i am not a muslim, and trying to understand what islam is all about.
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written by legallybotak, January 29, 2008 09:01:57
Yes, in many issues we are “victim” of our circumstances. However with regards to one’s faith, we must not forget to include the creator in the equation. When God the Almighty moves, you will be like Saul or Mohammad. You can run but you can never hide from the conviction of your heart. The question should not be whether you are a “born Muslim”.

So Mr. Semuaok, what has Marina’s faith got to do with the subject matter of “Malaysia is a failed state”? If Marina believes, she is a Muslim and that should be enough and it is between God and Marina and nothing to do with you.
smilies/smiley.gif
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written by mei yen, January 29, 2008 09:48:30
To alee:

Who do you know in this country, who can honestly deliver us from all the fears that you have? It is easy to be critical but we must also be able to provide or instill solutions, for better alternatives. What alternatives do we have? Do you know? All the instant messaging will benefit no one, just the telephone companies.
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written by Admiral Tojo, January 29, 2008 12:20:09
Dear RPK,
again a superb article. I personally came to realise that RELIGIONS are ALL man made, to weaken the people, after reading most all books on religion. I have read the OT and NT, The Gita, the Quran and many others. I too realise that only those who utilise their common sense will get to be free from this mental bondage called Religion. You may be an intelligent person but devoid of common sense or you may be a bus driver with a lot of common sense. Your destiny does not depend on a throw of the dice but how well we use the tool as given by the Creator, and that is our brain. For most, they are Zombies, under mass hypnosis by their Mullahs, Priests, Rabbis, Monks and what have you. A person under clinical hypnosis portray the same behavioral pattern as those with religions.

The words Islam, Muslim etc have been hijacked by the Arabs into being what is a Pagan Stone Worshipping Religion and the tribal laws of the desert has become GOD's law. When you tell them that GOD's laws are the laws of physics, Gravity being one, they will freak out.

The real danger is that this bigoted mindset of the desert Arabs has infiltrated into Malaysian society. Most of the Malay women looks like nuns now. What is disturbing is that it is a clear sign that they have succumbed and handed their minds over to these disbelieving mullahs and Arab wannabes. The Malay men are no different. When you hear them talk, I get shivers running down my spine for I realise that Malaysia can easily be another Kenya. All it needs is a prompt from people like the Mufti man Harunsaini of Perak, and blood will flow. So be aware people, evil is already in your backyard. We were all very complacent and never wanted to challenge what we think is nonsensical. We will reap the fair rewards for being complacent.

Ponder,
Salaam/Peace
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written by penangite, January 29, 2008 12:43:31
I dunno bout this la..but if that somebody, somewhere threw a dice and the list below is the real one running this country and not the current regime that we have now, we might see a better Malaysia. Who knows?

Prime Minister: Dato Seri Anwar Ibrahim
Deputy Prime Minister: Dato Husam Musa
Minister of Finance 1: Tan Sri Khalid Ibrahim
Minister of Finance 2: William Leong
Home Affairs and Internal Security Minister: Din Merican
Transport Minister: Lim Kit Siang
Education Minister: Raja Petra Raja Kamarudin
Youth and Sports Minister: Khalid Jaafar
Higher Education Minister: Emeritus Professor Khoo Kay Kim
Health Minister: Datin Seri Dr Wan Azizah Wan Ismail
Rural Development Minister: Tuan Guru Haji Abdul Hadi Awang
Minister in the Prime Minister’s Department: Nik Aziz Nik Mat
Minister of Trade and Industry: Tian Chua
Minister of Housing and Local Goverment: Fong Po Kuan
Minister of Agriculture and Agro-Based Industries: Azmin Ali
Minister of Community and Family Development: Teresa Kok
Minister of Arts, Culture and Heritage: Yasmin Ahmad
Minister of Entrepreneur Development: Jeff Ooi
Minister of Science, Technology and Innovation: Dr Azly Rahman
Minister of Law: Dr Azmi Sharom
Minister of Environment and Natural Resources: Dato Zaid Ibrahim
Minister of Sex: Dato Seri Dr Chua Soi Lek (oops..pun intended)
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written by fandi, January 29, 2008 12:59:10
BEING A MUSLIM AND NOT A MALAY

Now I know who you are what you are, I can now go deeper into what I have to blogg without reservation.I am a Chinese muslim, maybe because of marriage or not.To me there is only one God, so be it with other religion, only through unhealthy interpretation we get all these wars.Maybe through wars we progress because of the sacrifices.

To my belief what Islam has taught us is belief in God, and your heart will be pure to him, so what ever actions you do you are the only one answerable to him, not your parents or imam or any one else, and what other actions you do like rape, rob, murder etc.etc. you are still answerable to him, but the law has to take its course.

If the Malays who are all muslims do good instead of all the rempit, rob, rape, molest ,drugs,corruption, etc etc..the prisons would not be full with them.The question is why do the muslims do all this bad things, where have the system failed. Is it because we are more Malay then Muslim. Why then these sinners go for Haj, is it just to wash their sins and start all over again,Is this logical for those who do bad for them to appease their mind as these type of people have no conscience, but for those who do good, tend to be satisfied with their Haj.still want to go for Haj when there are those still waiting in line because of the limited number that can go to meet the quota.Please give others who have not got a chance. Well they can go for Umrah as there is no limitation.

Here comes the bombshell, why do the gomen people so particular with the Malays on what type of job they do which is haram to them is a lively hood to search for a living.If
the gomen people displace these type of workers from their place of work, then provide them a better place of employment, but this will never end because of the stupidity to say what is haram, which actually is not.Haram is man made to control another individual,If a man who thinks and belief that what he do is not Haram and is clean in thought, but to do an honest job for a living, there is no Haram because his faith in God is strong within him.Like earlier I did mention that a Malay who sells food stuff during puasa month is stronger in faith as temptation is in front of him and yet abstain from eating or drinking, so is a Malay Bar tender or a waitress.Only in the mind of the enforcers they are wrong.

Come Friday prayers you get the surmons , but how effective is it.The mind set of surmons should be change with time like a motivation talk then more will attend and change their lifestyle.Maybe I am wrong then I apologies., but please forget about shooting me down, wasting your time, because this is only a suggestion.

Now we have a lot of strong words that make to sensitive to talk, or ISA be imposed.I like to make a suggestion that another sensitive word like BUMIPUTRA should be a Haram word to be used, as this word itself create tension within the other races.If this word is banned from usage then all the other races got nothing to worry.Then use the words, Chinese for Chinese, Indians for Indians, Malays for Malays and Bengalis for Sikhs i.e. CIMB., then peace will prevail, and peace be upon you all.
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written by teo siew chin, January 29, 2008 13:02:14
But Admiral Tojo - you believe in your religion, just as RPK does too, no? To me, both you and RPK are religious AND turn out alright! The sad part is both of you (and people like you) do not run countries!
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written by cheekhiaw, January 29, 2008 13:44:05
The matter of joining religious organisations is no different from that of joining clubs.

Clubs are organisations where the more creative of people makeup activities/notions to please or pleasure themselves (including through the believe that their deities are one up on the others), and where other lesser ones derive more or less the same by imitation out of a behavior some people associate to the 'lesser' beings called apes.

As in all clubs, there are additional benefits or rewards accrued to the so-called leaders or special members (as compared to the ordinary members). To them, it also constitute a big part of their pleasure.

So it is important to this category of people to make their club as big as possible i.e. the more subscribing and paying (in various ways) members the better.

Thus to such people whatever notion(s) that attract the most suckers the better.

If one is to ask a member of a club why he/she chose his/her club over another, you will find a million and one answers to it.

Some may give the reason of proximity of various kinds (like geography, relationship, time zone, era, etc.)

Others may say that they had done a lot of research before deciding and appear a bit more intelligent.

But I am not sure anyone can say with certainty or convince all others that his/her club is the best or the 'true club' esp. to members of other equally big (and perhaps arrogant) clubs.

Nor would the fact that they did some 'research' indicate much about their intelligence. It only indicate more effort spent.

Most would however find it much simpler and sufficient (from the angle of pleasure) to join in their own club's regular and noisy self-declaration of superiority.

As to the special members/leaders of the club, it really does not matter what reason or how those suckers join as long as they do.

Thus to a less discerning stranger lost in the land full of clubs but wanting to know how everyone got to choose their club in herd or ape-like frenzy (sounds like the stock market club?), it might as well have looked like rolling a dice.

Religious clubs are no different.....

xxx
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written by advocatusdiaboli, January 29, 2008 14:14:28
Semuaok u r Pathetic! When a man and a woman decide to get married they do so out of love for each other. Religion is personal. If I were to marry someone it should be out of love and not because of religion. When we can't respect ourselves as human beings first then what religion la? Our lives should be governed by us alone. Religion should guide us and not control us. So what is it to you whether RPK's wife is a muslim or a convert or how religious is she and so on? You have proven the further backwardness of your thoughts based and controlled by religion.
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written by indianputra, January 29, 2008 14:34:42
written by penangite, January 29, 2008 | 12:43:31

I dunno bout this la..but if that somebody, somewhere threw a dice and the list below is the real one running this country and not the current regime that we have now, we might see a better Malaysia. Who knows?
======================================================= ============

Why lah no Indian Ministers. You mean to say the proposed cabinet and the opposition parties WILL CONTINUE MARGINALIZATION OF INDIANS???

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written by alee, January 29, 2008 14:35:18
To Mei Yen,

I must say you are incredibly stupid or ignorant of what is happening to our country !! Our country is being plundered by crooks and corrupt politicians. Our country is heading towards self destruction. Did you not know we have desasters after desaster, scandals after scandals and so much injustice, and those in power, instead of solving them , are actually condoning them? The country is being robbed and stolen billions and billions of Ringgits year in year out. We have no securitiy, our childrens have no future in Malaysia is things continue like this.

The country is losing billions and billions and you worry about each individual's cost of sending a few SMS ? I really cannot contain my anger !! How stupid and ignorant can you be !!

Judging by your name, you are certainly not an UMNOputra !! And being an MT reader yourself, you wonder what alternative we have ? My goodness !!

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written by penangite, January 29, 2008 15:12:25
Dear Indianputra,

The list is not exhaustive. Okay, to be fair to you and all,

Minister for Works: M Kulasegaran

You can add at your own leisure.

Thank you, Indianputra.
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written by Admiral Tojo, January 29, 2008 15:24:34
written by teo siew chin, January 29, 2008 | 13:02:14
>>>>But Admiral Tojo - you believe in your religion, just as RPK does too, no? To me, both you and RPK are religious AND turn out alright! The sad part is both of you (and people like you) do not run countries!

Teo Siew Chin Sir!
Read my lips - I do not have a religion. I have a way of life (DEEN). No rituals, dogmas, no high priests, no nothing. I do not waste effort, money and resource in the sycophantic act of worship, for GOD (not as portrayed by Religions) is closer to me than my jugular vein. Figure this one out.

If I was running the country, I will declare 'Syariah' as evil and outlaw it. We already have laws of the land. If I run naked on the street, I can be liable for causing public nuisance and be fined and jailed. There are already adequate laws in place. We do not need the Arab Tribal law (Syariah) here, afterall we are NOT Arabs. Our problem is enforcement of these laws are not effective and most enforcers a corrupt to the core.

Nope, we do not need religion to be good decent human beings. Trash them and we may have a hope.

Salaam/Peace

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written by cruzeiro, January 29, 2008 15:33:23
Especially someone who has a strong will(you know who) vs a lady. I always admire how a lady think, they can be number 2 eventhought they are a lot smarter. They can be right and yet keep quiet for the man to have his ego.
================

Dear Semuaok,
You seem to have figured it all out!
I may not be Muslim, but really don't like what you try to imply - even if it may be the truth!
As a matter of fact, even if somebody has left the Catholic Church, (depite misgivings) I would rather wish him/ her well, and leave it between him and his God. I'd learn to respect that.

In fact, if it makes him a better person all round, I'd be happy for him.
That one should be willing to give up one's dogmatism for the true religion of "Love" is good enough, should it manifest in goodwill, faith hope and charity.
It would be unwise for one to speculate and jump to conclusions ....

I think RPK has been quite accommodating in at least replying to your unwarranted public questioning of a private matter.
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written by almurady, January 29, 2008 16:11:21
Semuaok wrote:
"RPK you are pretty stubborn and dangerous with your faulty believe & opinion. I'm going to leave you with: We only fail when we give up"
.........................

Smuaok, its relative...to you RPK may be a heresy, sesat or pf faulty opinion.. while to others RPK is a prophet of some sort.. so it's depending how you see live. Leave it brother... Just concentrate to find truth.. without judging people. You're right to "we fail when we give up"

Salaam..
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written by almurady, January 29, 2008 16:12:53
sorry.. i missed 'say'
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written by teo siew chin, January 29, 2008 16:39:12
"GOD (not as portrayed by Religions) is closer to me than my jugular vein."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Admiral Tojo - your Deen has led you to your intimacy with God, an intimacy many try to attain even if they have to take drastic measures including slashing jugulars not necessarily their own. The Book of Deen seems to be invoking a vast difference of influence.

Sometimes it's good to set a book down awhile and pause to reflect eh? I have yet to read that Book but anyhow I consider myself decent enough.

Shalom.

(btw, i not a sir but just a stupid chink)
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written by teo siew chin, January 29, 2008 16:44:10
"Love" is good enough, should it manifest in goodwill, faith hope and charity."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Way to go Cruz! Love is all we need man! Wanna hug?
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written by cruzeiro, January 29, 2008 17:26:30
.. while to others RPK is a prophet of some sort..
===============

For Pete's sake - when did that happen?

RPK - I'm totally stumped!
You're a prophet of some sort!!!!
So when is the final prophecy for the elections coming, Pete?

BTW, tsc - wouldn't mind it, should you be a woman smilies/grin.gif (otherwise, Thanks but no thanks)
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written by cruzeiro, January 29, 2008 17:31:28
written by alhadee,

My oh my, these Kelings never change do they?
=============

Were you offended by his possibly "unreasonable" perception?

And are you any better with language meant to offend, are you?

Take a good look at yourself, before you choose to use words meant to insult, bro .....

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written by mei yen, January 29, 2008 18:09:40
RPK. I am glad most of your readers are mature enough to hold discussions without getting all flustered up and resorting to name calling when a different point of view is presented. BTW, I do enjoy reading your articles. Although I may not agree with some thoughts of yours but ... I must say you are doing a great job getting Malaysians to think on another level and not just accept anything that is dished out to them without checking the facts first.
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written by liumx, January 29, 2008 18:14:06
Identity is never an easy to solve problem as some wordings or documents, it takes into the whole web of human relationship account. So, when asking "Who am I?", we are not that illegitimatize ourself.

I guess by reading Benedict Anderson's Imagined Communities will tie to the identity problem as well.
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written by Admiral Tojo, January 29, 2008 18:19:28
written by teo siew chin, January 29, 2008 | 16:39:12

>>>>Sometimes it's good to set a book down awhile and pause to reflect eh? I have yet to read that Book but anyhow I consider myself decent enough.

From your postings thus far, I can tell that you are a decent human being that befits a 'Sir' from me. There are many ways that a person can be inspired. What the pre-requisite is for us to implore, reflect analyze and do not accept anything that we cannot verify. This applies to those in the jungles of New Guinea to the skyscrapers of New York.

Cruz, way to go and hugs all around.

Peace

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written by indianputra, January 29, 2008 19:26:33
written by alhadee, January 29, 2008 | 17:16:04

indianputra 'Why lah no Indian Ministers. You mean to say the proposed cabinet and the opposition parties WILL CONTINUE MARGINALIZATION OF INDIANS???'

My oh my, these Kelings never change do they? Just like in Ijok, they are angry when PKR refuse to field a Keling pimp as candidate. So they voted for one of Dewa Samy's prophets instead. Are you happy dear Kelings?

It is not difficult to please Kelings isn't it? Give them lots of toddy and sworn in a retard Keling minister, they would worship the ground you walks on.
======================================================= ============================

Mind your words 'sakai'!!! If Indians are Malaysian citizens, then they MUST be represented in the Government and THAT IS WHAT I SAID!!!

It is people like you, who has no respect for other races in Malaysia who are bringing the downfall of this nation. Anyway, I am not arguing with an uneducated racist like you.
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written by teo siew chin, January 29, 2008 20:48:56
Dear Admiral Tojo - thank you so much for your kind words. (and i'm not a guy smilies/grin.gif. so cruz, come and get it!!!!!!)
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written by cruzeiro, January 29, 2008 20:53:10
Holy Cow, tsc!
You once wanted to play show and tell and all - you got me fooled!
Now I donno what to think ..... smilies/cheesy.gif

BTW, Indianputra,
Yenna dei - calling people sakai and all?
Don't be like a kid lah - he call you names, then you call back ....
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written by indianputra, January 29, 2008 20:59:27
written by cruzeiro, January 29, 2008 | 20:53:10

BTW, Indianputra,
Yenna dei - calling people sakai and all?
Don't be like a kid lah - he call you names, then you call back ....
======================================================= ===========================

cruzeiro,

There are more obnoxious words and names I can call that moron. Out of respect for RPK and MT, I decided to tone down the name calling. Nothing kiddish about it.. But a fool like him who calls the Indians names deserves it and more!!
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written by cruzeiro, January 29, 2008 21:14:02
Out of respect for RPK and MT, I decided to tone down the name calling. Nothing kiddish about it.. But a fool like him who calls the Indians names deserves it and more!!
================

LOL!
True, true .....
Okaylah .... hope you let out some steam there, and are happy now.
Now go have a Kit-kat ...
Peace mate!
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written by cruzeiro, January 29, 2008 21:17:45
Btw RPK,
I'm sure many would like to hear your take on the recent Seremban conversion controversy ....
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written by teo siew chin, January 29, 2008 21:53:34
Yo Cruz - 2 things:
(1) I'm not a cow
(2) I'm definitely not holy

But when the day is over, I do ride home at the end of a broom!
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written by Wisdom above, January 29, 2008 22:30:26
a) ".... conflict was finally settled with an agreement that religion would come under the jurisdiction of the ulamak while the ruling elite would just run the state. The ulamak decided on the laws and on what would be regarded as right and wrong. That, basically, was how the Shariah came into being although the Islamists would dispute this opinion and would insist that the Shariah existed since the time of Prophet Muhammad."

b) ".....The ulamak eventually prohibited innovation and called it bidaah and that was the beginning of the end for Muslim technology." .....

1) So the Shariah became Islamic Jurisprudence in the making.

2) Codified by the human ' ulamak '.

3) No wonder many diversified views, cognitive disturbing interpretations of shariah came into force.

4) Conflicts after conflicts plagued the nations that practised the Shariah.

5) When enforced on the infidels , we have dire negative consequences.

Remember, all events happened yesterday & today were all illogical.

' Malaysian Love Malaysian '.
...
.........
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written by Friez, January 29, 2008 23:10:44
In my experience, arguing about faith and religion is a zero-sum game: matters of faith (whether you have any or not) are unquantifiable, and is a personal matter. I agree with the majority of what's been said here - that being a good person is more important than being a good muslim/catholic/buddhist etc.

In an ideal world, being a good adherent to a religion should mean that a person should by default be a good person - as all religions would have a basic requirement to encourage their members to be good (unless of course you subscribe to a religion that encourages you to be evil to each other - who knows, there could be one or two out there...).

I put more stock in the person as a whole, as opposed to how pious he/she is. I have met people who you could more or less class as god-less, but are genuine, honest, caring and loving people. I have also met people who are pious (in a variety of religions) but have a nasty streak a mile long.

No one should be judged on how they practise their faith, or even if they have one to being with. That is between them and their god(s), or in the case of atheists, them and their conscience. They should however, during their time here on earth amongst you and me, be judged on how they treat their fellow human beings.

Personally, despite being a muslim, I do not believe that only Muslims will be rewarded in the after-life. I believe a kind and fair God would deal out rewards in the after-life accordingly. To punish someone who had the 'misfortune' to be born to the 'wrong' faith, despite being a good if not virtuous human being, would be unjust and does not sit kindly with the God I believe in.

This does not mean that I do not believe in the teachings of Islam, nor does this belief devalue the Muslim practices that I do (or do not) carry out. In actual fact, this strengthens my devotion to a God that I believe, in my heart of hearts, to be just.
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written by Zainal, January 30, 2008 04:07:23
written by Semuaok, January 29, 2008 | 14:21:54

RPK you are pretty stubborn and dangerous with your faulty believe & opinion. I'm going to leave you with: We only fail when we give up

Dear semuaok, so u think RPK is stuborn, dangerous with faulty believe & opinion? Are you sure? i ask again. Are you sure?

Read the history of the prophet muhammad. He was called "Al Majnun" mad and crazy, stuborn and dangerous. The people in mekah at that time were actually, already muslim. Muhamads father is Abdullah, which means the servant of allah. They were performing already the Haj at that time, and they thought that they were muslims, i suppose its the same as we are now. So, you think you are a muslim?

I think RPK has the charecteristic and qualities like the choosen one. And you have the qualities of those who have called the prophet insane.

You think you are a muslim? Are you sure? Read the Quran again, i mean its content, any language.
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written by alhadee, January 30, 2008 06:02:35
cruzeiro,

>>Were you offended by his possibly "unreasonable" perception?

No. So what's your point here?

>>And are you any better with language meant to offend, are you?

Since these Kelings fall over each other and rush to imitate niggers. the word nigger wannabes do cross my mind. Pariah seems a good choice though but Mahathir had claimed it for his own.

>>Take a good look at yourself, before you choose to use words meant to insult, bro .....

And who the hell you think you are? MT's moral police? And why should I subscribe to your standard of 'decent' words? This is a No Holds Barred section, can't you understand what that means, nigger?

The only one who could deemed me as insulting is RPK himself. This is his website and he could do whatever he wishes to. You could ask him to boot me out or delete my postings, and I promise that I won't whine if he does, unlike many Chings here.

Get a life, nigger.

Hey Indianputra,

First of all, if you could not take insults, then I would like to say sorry. This is a No Holds Barred section so I presume everyone here is ready to take insults in one way or another. I guess niggers like cruzeiro could not stomach it.

And do please retract your sakai statement. You should apologize to them. They don't insult you, I did. However, I do admit that it feels funny to see the innocent sakai getting the shots .

I am really not sure how you come to the conclusion that Indians are marginalized if there is no Indian Ministers in the cabinet. But can't you stop for a while and try your best to think, with your pea brain, that presently, the Indians are marginalized with a few Indian Ministers in the cabinet? Indian Ministers won't help at all dear Indianputra if these ministers are nothing more than puppets.

Look at the leaders and the issue they addressed and what they had done. One of Hindraf's grievances is over rampant temple demolishing exercise right? Samy Vellu cannot help you guys on this matter. But Kit Siang and Nik Aziz could. One goes shouting on your behalf over temples, the other helps to build one. And does it matter if they are Indians or not?

If PKR had fielded Nalla and won the by election, do you seriously think Nalla, being a Keling pimp, would really care about the welfare of poor Indians? My guess is he will start building more toddy shops for you guys. Of course if you insists on race based candidates, you could debate on whether besides Nalla, weren't there not other capable Indians to be fielded as candidates by PKR.

I won't try to explain why PKR fielded Khalid because I don't know. That is up to those PKR PR boys to explain it. But a word of advice from me, don't judge the person by which race he belongs to. I won't mind Kit Siang as PM, as long as someone could convince me that old ching does not practice nepotism, is a true democrat and truly concern on the welfare of all, especially the poor and needy.

You did tone down your stupidity by saying 'If Indians are Malaysian citizens, then they MUST be represented in the Government and THAT IS WHAT I SAID!!!', Good, we are making progress here. I agree with you on this one. There should be representation of every race in the government, including the Sakai that you bad mouthed, but not necessarily it must be at ministerial level. I never heard of Sakai demanding a Sakai minister in the cabinet and I am sure they will be happy if there are Keling Ministers who are fair to them and who are willing to listen to their plight and act upon it.

To Muslims, please do take note that many of our long lost scientist belong to the Muktazillah sect, which is deemed as deviants. Yet many Muslims try to hide that fact while trying to glorify the contribution of Muslim to the world of sciences. Ironic isn't it, attempt to glorify the past is done at the expense of so call deviant sects. Don't get me wrong, I am not about to tell you to follow the Sky Kingdom as I doubt very much Ayah Pin's scientific background but it would be a good idea to do your own research in this matter.
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written by yusuf m, January 30, 2008 12:21:46
Admiral Tojo: >>>I too realise that only those who utilise their common sense will get to be free from this mental bondage called Religion... For most, they are Zombies, under mass hypnosis by their Mullahs, Priests, Rabbis, Monks and what have you. A person under clinical hypnosis portray the same behavioral pattern as those with religions.
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written by yusuf m, January 30, 2008 12:22:41
Well,well. we have finally moved from Arab Conspiracies to Mental Bondage now,eh? For someone who claims to have read almost all books on religion (i nearly spewed my lunch out) and finally conclude decisively (personally realised konon, but really after reading one pathetic book with two titles written by a moron who doesn't even publish his name and had learned the language he translated from at the ripe old age of 40), I must say it again, that you are the real zombie. Wake up commander, and if its not for snapping out of your murshidul am's hypnosis, then the least you could do is perform some useful service for him, campaign for the book not to be banned. 'Never banned!', you retort? The burden of proof is upon you. Start acting like a righteous commitment- upholding and pureness- maintaining ankles- sanctioned system mullah that you are.

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written by indianputra, January 30, 2008 18:07:38
Please visit HINDRAF website - just running : www.hindraf.co.uk
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written by cruzeiro, January 30, 2008 19:02:44
Dear alhadee,
Feel free to dish out offensive language, if it makes your day - I've got no problems with that.
Don't worry, I wasn't insulted - there's no reason to feel that way.
Those are only words from one that's insignificant to me.
By all means, go ahead and dish out more offensive language- you probably think it makes you look good, and your "victim" bad.
Good day to you too, mate! smilies/cheesy.gif
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written by fandi, January 30, 2008 21:38:57
EVERYONE SUDAH JADI GILA KAH

HALO, HALO, EVERYONE Stop pointing fingers at each other, do you know how many more fingers are pointing at yourself.Looks like everyone wants to be GOD because they know better how to interpret the KORAN and BIBLE.Better leave the translation to Confucius, like Confucius say this or Confucius say that.So everyone gets confuse and no one to blame on.
Merry Chinese New Year everyone, whether you are CIMB.This is MALAYSIA man.
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written by Zainal, January 31, 2008 05:02:41
written by cabearth,

It's very dangerous to draw simple conclusions when reading abt Islam. It's even more dangerous to draw conclusions when your sources are all in secondary language of Islam.

There is a reason why ALLAH SAW sent down the Quran in Arabic and there is a reason why scholars master Arabic to understand the Quran. They don't do it just for the fun of it.
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Dear cabearth

It makes me wonder and sometimes confused, especially after reading stuffs like what you wrote. My thoughts and questions about islam and the interpretation of the Al quran started since my teenage years. I have asked my ustaz at schools many times but i've never ever once received any satisfying answers from any of them, except like something what you wrote. And Most of the time, they'll ask me to keep my mouth shut and they'll say i ask too many questions. I am supposed to just listen and keep quite.

All i actually wanted is to understand and to know in a logical. And i suppose that is natural for anyone who is a human.

Answers that i get always contradict with what i read and understand from reading from the main source, that is the AL-QURAN. For example, the above you wrote, you make one feel its dangerous and difficult to touch the quran, in fear of drawing a wrong conclusion.

But than see Al Qamar (54):17, "We have indeed made the Quran easy to understand,is there any that receive admonition?" God says he has made it easy. You wrote the reverse. And dangerous.

See Al alaq (96):1 "Read in the name of thy Lord Who created." And that is the first revelation to Muhammad and now to us, to read. But you are frightening people to read. Making it sound like its not easy to understand.

You said that the Quran should be read in the Arabic language to understand, but see Ad-Dukhaan (44):58. "Derily, we have made this (Quran) easy, in thy tongue, in order that they may give heed." Clearly here it says that to get heed or to understand it must be in our language that we will understand. And if we take that as an order from god, than it is our duty to translate the arabic version to other languages so that it will be read and understood. And that is why i suppose, the earlier muslims has translated it to so many different languages. Although, i think it is good that we learn and master the arabic language.

Sometimes i wonder, maybe it is people like yourself are the ones who are drawing conclusions and confusing the people.
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written by cabearth,
The trouble right now are pseudo scholars who relies mostly on self interpretation of translated text without adhering to any dicipline in interpreting ISlam other than their own whims.
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Than whats the point of this verse:- Ad-Dukhaan (44):58. "Derily, we have made this (Quran) easy, in thy tongue, in order that they may give heed." It didnt say Arabic language! And definately God did not make a mistake, or did he? And whats the language we are communicating with now?
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written by Zainal, January 31, 2008 05:25:21
written by cabearth, January 30, 2008 | 18:40:13


To tell u the truth. i have yet to see one solid argument put forward by the so-call modernists in Islam. THey claim to represent the new way that will save Muslims and Islam and allow Islam to adopt to the modern way.
........................................

Dear cabearth'

Islam has been modern since than. The word modern is derived from the root word in arab "ADDIN". Dinnul Islam, meaning the way (system) of islam. The society practising the system of Islam, MADDANI, in Malay, TAMADUN. "Masyarakat yang bertamadun (modern) or civilized. Yathtrib, a place accepting the sistem of Islam was changed to MADINAH
So, you see, islam has adopted the modern way since the Prophets time. He paved the way to modernization. And changed the Arabs from the Jahiliah to become the Caliphs on this earth. And now the Muslims are back to the same periode as the Jahiliahs.
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written by azlanm03, January 31, 2008 11:47:19
YM RPK,

I have been following your writing since. What I like about you is that I feel like I have similarities in thought especially on this subject, History or specifically Muslim Civilisation History or I refer as MCH.

Let just say that I am do not go through scholarly discipline in this field but just take it as enriching my general knowledge and wisdom.

The most interesting aspect to me when reading matters related MCH is made me wonder why Muslim as a state or Ummah has failed in the 21st Century.

Is it because Allah has destined it to be this way?
Is it because we as an Ummah did not do enough effort to justify our pray for success in the eye of Allah SWT?

This question can be more to spiritual and faith but one will wonder what exactly had happened in reality since the day that referred as Camel War between Saiditina Aishah and Saidina Ali ibn Talib.

History is important so to be able to comprehend the action that had occurred and the aftermath or consequences. If one did not have verification work, so one must really believe in faith.

Now, that you had quote
“Eventually, a conflict arose between the ruling elite, who were seen as not Islamic enough, and the members of the cloth. The conflict was finally settled with an agreement that religion would come under the jurisdiction of the ulamak while the ruling elite would just run the state. The ulamak decided on the laws and on what would be regarded as right and wrong. That, basically, was how the Shariah came into being although the Islamists would dispute this opinion and would insist that the Shariah existed since the time of Prophet Muhammad.”

It is very interesting thought and had enlightened me on questions that kept pondering over my head for quite a long time.

The reason I write this is I am very eager and enthusiastic as ever to delve on MCH matter on the consequences that has happened as until now.

I am hoping that maybe I can be your student on this matter.

The specific subject interest me much is the conflict that started the division of ruling elite and Shariah group. Question such as when this start happening? Was it really took off during the Abbasid Caliphate era?

I remember scholars like Ibn-Sina, Ibn Khaldun… and other great Muslim Civilisation scholar are often have to run away from the politics as what I did read a little bit on Wikipedia. Were this to any have connection on bidaah ruling?
This are the question that I wanted to seek verification of the truth so to understand more on MCH
To YM RPK I again thank you for enlighten me on this matter

Again on another matter, just like to share my viewpoint about you based from my little feedback that I gathered.

It seems that Muslim are generally loves spiritual story rather than History or we say actual facts. I remember discussing about you with one of my friend which I can say likes to speak from religious viewpoint. (Anyway, History is also religious matter to me) Well, he have a lot of Tok Guru that he knows them personally.

What disappointed me is that he considered you as quite a threat to Muslim because of your view about Islam. We just talked about the issues concerning the use Allah as a name of God among the Non-Muslim. And I really agree on you from Historical fact and viewpoint. Then I had considered Syed …Al-Attas in Mingguan Malaysia and he commented that the name cannot be use by Non-Muslim because it can create confusion among mass (that mean again Muslim are not well read and easily deviated are his conclusion, I guess)

To me, I will held to your viewpoint, even though that Syed had said that it can pose threat to Ummah, I must say that maybe we have to do educate the mass to understand the History. Seem to me that Shariah Ulama does not like History, are they?

Well, I just like to ask your opinion on which is better medicine. Understanding History or concealing History for the sake of Ummah?

Thank you again YM RPK for ever willing to read my thought on a very Malaysian English way of writing.

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written by ugikmto, January 31, 2008 12:07:44
Dear RasuahMinister

Please use word Ulamak at correct perspective and difination. Remember "Ulamak is pewaris nabi", then find what nabi has done? Just elaborate from that you won't get lost or cheated. Person/s who dont follow what nabi did then he/they not ulamak.

Do not waste time learning Islam from UMNO people, surely you'll get swayed out. Unless for someone who merely looking for reasons to condemn Islam.
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written by Raja Petra, January 31, 2008 14:42:13
In reference to some of the comments above, Kalifah or Caliph actually just means successor. There is nothing holy about Caliphs. Harun Al Rashid was a Caliph but he drank wine and loved women and was considered immoral by the religious people of his time. And many Caliphs tortured and put to death religious people including some of the renowned imams. If Najib succeeds Abdullah Badawi as PM then he would be the Caliph, just like Badawi is the Caliph to Tun Dr Mahathir.

Ulama' or ulamak means expert/specialist. A renowned brain surgeon or expert jewel thief are ulamaks in their respective fields. I could probably pass off as an ulamak in gerrymandering and vote rigging seeing that I have participated in compiling all the evidence to support the election petitions filed after the 2004 general election.

Don't get impressed with Arabic words. They are not as mystical as Malays normally believe. Guru, for example, is not a mystical word but an Indian word which merely means teacher or sifu in Chinese.

As for the Quran being in Arabic this is again being disputed. There are many Aramaic words in the Quran. We are told that even Arab speaking people do not understand the Quran, what more non-Arab speaking people like us. And this is true. Actually, Aramaic speaking people have no problems understanding the Quran. They found that Arab speaking people had so much problems understanding the Quran that later they added dots and dashes to the Arabic alphabet and increased the 22 consonants to 28. The Arabic alphabet also did not have any vowels so SALAM was just SLM and the vowels were added in later and God was LLH until it was changed to ALLAH. The 'modern' Arabic alphabet that we know of today was adapted from Syriac. The Arabic alphabet was therefore improved around the Quran to make the Quran more readable.

And this is where the problem started when people 'improved' the Arabic language to dovetail with the meaning in the Quran, which they assumed it meant. But this is another matter for another time which is a very controversial subject indeed and not one Malays are ready to discuss just yet. Maybe in 50 years time we can discuss this and get a better understanding of the language and meaning of the Quran.
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written by Presiden Mesia, January 31, 2008 14:50:00
RPK, I have a simple experiment for you to prove that what we said is a whole bunch of baloney.

Please ask your lovely wife Ms. Marina why she converted to Islam?

Then ask her again:

1) If you were a Christian will she convert?

2) If you were a Jew will she convert?

3) If you were Chinese will she convert?

4) If you were an atheist will she convert?

5) Lastly, tell us if you are mama boy and mama said no to Islam will she convert?

If she can give you the same answer every time, then she is a true believer of Islam.

written by Semuaok, January 28, 2008 | 00:11:42 (with editing of grammatical/spelling errors)


Hi Semuaok,
Don't you respect RPK's wife convert to islam?
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written by teo siew chin, January 31, 2008 15:53:36
Omigosh the confusion of languages! For a moment there, I read "...probably pass off as an ulamak in gerrymandering and vote rigging.." and went huh? RPK is an expert in gerrymandering and vote rigging???????. My apologies - it was a case of "The teacher said he is a fool."

Sigh, too much of shocking stuff to read nowadays. Gotta give up reading for awhile.
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written by cabearth, January 31, 2008 18:08:46
written by Zainal, January 31, 2008 | 05:02:41

“Dear cabearth

It makes me wonder and sometimes confused, especially after reading stuffs like what you wrote. My thoughts and questions about islam and the interpretation of the Al quran started since my teenage years. I have asked my ustaz at schools many times but i've never ever once received any satisfying answers from any of them, except like something what you wrote. And Most of the time, they'll ask me to keep my mouth shut and they'll say i ask too many questions. I am supposed to just listen and keep quite.

All i actually wanted is to understand and to know in a logical. And i suppose that is natural for anyone who is a human. “


MY REPLY: I inquired from my ustaz too and I managed to get logical explanation for my questions. Why haven’t you?

======================================================= ========
Zainal writes: Answers that i get always contradict with what i read and understand from reading from the main source, that is the AL-QURAN. For example, the above you wrote, you make one feel its dangerous and difficult to touch the quran, in fear of drawing a wrong conclusion.

But than see Al Qamar (54):17, "We have indeed made the Quran easy to understand,is there any that receive admonition?" God says he has made it easy. You wrote the reverse. And dangerous.

See Al alaq (96):1 "Read in the name of thy Lord Who created." And that is the first revelation to Muhammad and now to us, to read. But you are frightening people to read. Making it sound like its not easy to understand.

You said that the Quran should be read in the Arabic language to understand, but see Ad-Dukhaan (44):58. "Derily, we have made this (Quran) easy, in thy tongue, in order that they may give heed."

MY REPLY: Try reading 12:02

“we have sent it down, an arabic koran, in order that you understand. (2)”.

Since the Quran is sent down in Arabic, as testified by the Quran, therefore we must understand the Quran in the language God prescribed, right?

It’s amazing that u take part of the Quran u like and discard what u don’t like u ignore.
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written by cabearth, January 31, 2008 18:34:11
Raja Petra writes:

In reference to some of the comments above, Kalifah or Caliph actually just means successor. There is nothing holy about Caliphs. Harun Al Rashid was a Caliph but he drank wine and loved women and was considered immoral by the religious people of his time. And many Caliphs tortured and put to death religious people including some of the renowned imams. If Najib succeeds Abdullah Badawi as PM then he would be the Caliph, just like Badawi is the Caliph to Tun Dr Mahathir.

MY REPLY: While I agree that Caliph is not fallible, and the Quran or Al HAdeeth never stated them to be infallible anyways, we have to agree that the need for a Caliph is without a doubt.

Also, I caution Raja Petra for making accusations which he has no proof for. All of these bad accusation against previous Caliphs are the handiwork of the Shiaa and later carried forward by the Orientalist which later were taken by the Liberal Muslims.

It’s also funny that Raja refers to Shia sources when the Shia believes that their Imam is “infallible”. That is why it was hard for the Americans to topple the Iranian govt right now because majority of SHiaa believes that the leadership of Iran is God-inspired and cannot be challenged.
======================================================= ========

RAJA PETRA: Ulama' or ulamak means expert/specialist. A renowned brain surgeon or expert jewel thief are ulamaks in their respective fields. I could probably pass off as an ulamak in gerrymandering and vote rigging seeing that I have participated in compiling all the evidence to support the election petitions filed after the 2004 general election.

MY REPLY: Yes I agree, but notice the word “al “ before the word “ulama”. The “Al” refers to a specific type of ulama which in this case refers to “expert on Islam”.

It depends on the topic of discussion actually. If were talking about masonry and buildings, then the ulama in these field are called “architects”. If were talking about telecommunications, there are called “engineers”.

But, when we are talking about Islam, then the term used is “al Ulama”.
You’ve got to take the entire phrase to see the true meaning of the word and it’s context
======================================================= ========

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written by cabearth, January 31, 2008 18:34:47
RAJA WRITES: Don't get impressed with Arabic words. They are not as mystical as Malays normally believe. Guru, for example, is not a mystical word but an Indian word which merely means teacher or sifu in Chinese.

MY REPLY: I agree instead one should try to understand the Arabic word in it’s proper context
======================================================= ========

RAJA WRITES: As for the Quran being in Arabic this is again being disputed. There are many Aramaic words in the Quran. We are told that even Arab speaking people do not understand the Quran, what more non-Arab speaking people like us. And this is true.

MY REPLY: When talking about the language of the Quran, one has to be very careful. Why? Because it’s the Quran itself that states it’s language in the most unequivocal terms

12:02 = we have sent it down, an arabic koran, in order that you understand. (2)

As for the foreign words in the Quran, it is found out that these words are either ancient Arabic words that had gone out of use until the revelation of the Qur’an, or that such words were ancient borrowings introduced into Arabic long before the Revelation which had since then acquired an Arabic pattern.
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RAJA WRITES: Actually, Aramaic speaking people have no problems understanding the Quran. They found that Arab speaking people had so much problems understanding the Quran that later they added dots and dashes to the Arabic alphabet and increased the 22 consonants to 28. The Arabic alphabet also did not have any vowels so SALAM was just SLM and the vowels were added in later and God was LLH until it was changed to ALLAH. The 'modern' Arabic alphabet that we know of today was adapted from Syriac. The Arabic alphabet was therefore improved around the Quran to make the Quran more readable.
======================================================= ========

MY REPLY: Funny for a man who curses ulama for rejecting “innovation” in Islam, you’re going on a limb rejecting this particular innovation.

I struggle to figure out where Raja Petra gets his sources from. For your information, the dots, dashes, alphebets etc are all designed for NON ARAB SPEAKING PEOPLE so as to facilitate them in reading and reciting the Quran.

Raja thinks it’s the other way around, which I think contradicts every historical account known to man.
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written by cabearth, January 31, 2008 18:35:57
RAJA WRITES: And this is where the problem started when people 'improved' the Arabic language to dovetail with the meaning in the Quran, which they assumed it meant. But this is another matter for another time which is a very controversial subject indeed and not one Malays are ready to discuss just yet. Maybe in 50 years time we can discuss this and get a better understanding of the language and meaning of the Quran.

MY REPLY: My dear friend Raja. Nobody improved anything on the Quran. In fact, Muslims even learn to “recite” the Quran the way the Prophet SAW did. Hence, all the Quran reciting classes we attended when we were kids.

Why’d u think we went through the trouble to do so? For fun? It’s nothing but to ensure that recitation of the Quran is done according the the way the Prophet did.
If recitation of the Quran is kept pure and original, then how can u imagine the content and text of the Quran be compromised?

All of the “innovations” u mentioned above are referred and discipline according to the teachings of the Prophet SAW. The innovations are designed to facilitate those who are not of the Arabic tounge to recite and read the Quran.

There is no corruption at all, unless Raja can conjour one up from his hat?

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written by cabearth, January 31, 2008 18:41:02

Noticed how sick and tired i am to all the "questions" raised by liberal muslims. They raised questions which has been addressed thousands of years ago.

Even when we provide them the answers they refuse to accept it, anyways.

So no wonder they get brushed off when they ask their questions
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written by Raja Petra, January 31, 2008 18:56:30
Dear cabearth, I am talking about apples and you are talking about oranges. What has recitation got to do with understanding the language of the Quran? Even parrots can recite, though they do not know what they recite. I know what you mean when you say that the Quran says: Qur'aanan 'Arabiyaan. In Syriac 'Arabiyan means western. So the Quran says it is the language of the West. What then is the langauge of the west?
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written by Raja Petra, January 31, 2008 19:04:40
Dear cabearth, the 'original' Arabic, as you say, is not the Arabic of today. I know many would argue that the Quran is in 'classical' Arabic and that is why even Arabs don't understand the language just like English speaking people don't understand 'old English'. But 'old English' is not English. It is an ancient pre-English language. Pre-Arabic languages were Syriac and Aramaic, which was the written language of the tribes of the Arabian Peninsular of ancient times.
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written by indianputra, January 31, 2008 19:17:50
TO: THE BUMIPUTRAS & MALAYS OF MALAYSIA,

Aren't you ASHAMED of what is happening in Malaysia? Don't you FEEL GUILTY that you are eating and becoming rich on the blood of the non-Malays? By taking everything and GIVING NOTHING, are you real Muslims? THINK PEOPLE, THINK.. Live and let live.. Have compassion .. GOD IS WATCHING YOU!!!!
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written by cabearth, January 31, 2008 19:21:50
written by Raja Petra, January 31, 2008 | 18:56:30
Dear cabearth, I am talking about apples and you are talking about oranges. What has recitation got to do with understanding the language of the Quran? Even parrots can recite, though they do not know what they recite. I know what you mean when you say that the Quran says: Qur'aanan 'Arabiyaan. In Syriac 'Arabiyan means western. So the Quran says it is the language of the West. What then is the langauge of the west?

=======================================

MY REPLY: Raja, the Quran is in Arabic and not in Syrian. When it says Arabic, it means the Arabic that the Prophet SAW utters.

Now, the Arabic that is spoken by the Prophet, is called, Classical Arabic.

And in Classical Arabic, the word "Arabiyyan" means "Arabic". Simple as that.

And i think Western in Arabic is "Gharbiyyin" not "Arabiyyin" or "Arabiyyan".
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written by ibabonma, January 31, 2008 19:24:43
penangite, what happen to Gobalakrisnan?
Indiaputra, would it be ok if we put him there: Chairman, Batu Cave Temple Management Committee?
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written by Raja Petra, January 31, 2008 19:28:03
Daer indianputra, why don't you go take a tour of the rural areas and see Malays bathe in the river where they also wash their clothes and take the same water to cook their meals. Whenever there is a cholera outbreak it is the Malays who get it and many die because of it. Hey, poverty is not the exclusive domain of the Indians. Malays, Chinese, those in Sabah/Sarawak, are sometimes worse off. You are a racist of the worst kind. I used to give shoes to Malay kids in Terengganu who walk to school barefooted and put their shoes on outside the school gates before entering the school compound because they do not want to wear off their shoes.
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written by cabearth, January 31, 2008 19:29:31
written by Raja Petra, January 31, 2008 | 19:04:40
Dear cabearth, the 'original' Arabic, as you say, is not the Arabic of today. I know many would argue that the Quran is in 'classical' Arabic and that is why even Arabs don't understand the language just like English speaking people don't understand 'old English'. But 'old English' is not English. It is an ancient pre-English language. Pre-Arabic languages were Syriac and Aramaic, which was the written language of the tribes of the Arabian Peninsular of ancient times.

=======================================================
MY REPLY: The Arabic we're concerned with is the Arabic spoken and understood by the Prophet. Right now, this paticular brand of Arabic is called "Classical Arabic".

It is being taught and and learned by all religous scholars around the world in all religous institution i.e. University of Al Azhar.

Unlike other languages, Arabic Classical language is still alive and well. PArt of the Classical language serves as Arabic "Fushah" or "Written" language.

So, there is no excuse to reject the Arabic language since it is still alive and well even as we speak.

Also, u cannot compare Arabic with English simply because English doesn't have a text that is preserved throughout time like the Quran.

The Classical English language is not well preserved and learned like the Classical Arabic. It's comparing Apples and Oranges.

That's why Classical English cannot be understood now even by English. I for one will not waste my time learning Classical English.
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written by Admiral Tojo, January 31, 2008 20:44:50
Cabearth,
I will say it as simple as possible for you. You say that this Prophet called Muhammad (NOT IN QURAN) received the Quran about 1400 years ago, right? Correct me if I am wrong but this figure of 1400 years keeps appearing in the stories such as 'The life of Muhammad' by Husein Haykal. Now 1400 years ago, in that part of town, the Arabic script as we know it does not exist. The earliest complete text in current Arabic can be found in Topkapi museum in Turkey, origin around 750 AD. This is the proof, through archeological and scientific research and not through heresay. Before this, there were NO Arabic script. So now tell me, in what language, 1400 years ago did the Quran come down in? Or are all these stories about this Muhammad chap (NOT in Quran) false??

If you say that the place currently called Mecca was where it happened, 1400 years ago, then how come no proof nor discovered documentations could be found, till today to support this argument. We have tools such as carbon dating to substantiate this.

Oh by the way, Al-Azhar teaches folklores and the Arab Religion. Recital and never reading the Quran as it should. These are never ISLAM as per Quran. That is why most if not ALL so-called 'Islamic' countries are in turmoil and hell on Earth. Do not blame it on anyone else or secularism and so on. It is all out of your own doing.

Now do you understand?

Salaam


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written by cabearth, January 31, 2008 21:33:04
written by Admiral Tojo, January 31, 2008 | 20:44:50
Cabearth,
I will say it as simple as possible for you. You say that this Prophet called Muhammad (NOT IN QURAN) received the Quran about 1400 years ago, right? Correct me if I am wrong but this figure of 1400 years keeps appearing in the stories such as 'The life of Muhammad' by Husein Haykal. Now 1400 years ago, in that part of town, the Arabic script as we know it does not exist.

========================================

MY REPLY: Actually, no. Read the link below.

http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_401_450/oldest_quran_in_the_world.htm

As for the Arabic script, the letters exists. The "baris" didn't. You do know what baris is don't u Altojo?
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written by cabearth, January 31, 2008 21:38:36
written by Admiral Tojo, January 31, 2008 | 20:44:50

If you say that the place currently called Mecca was where it happened, 1400 years ago, then how come no proof nor discovered documentations could be found, till today to support this argument. We have tools such as carbon dating to substantiate this.


MY REPLY: That’s because the original copies are taken outside of Mecca and Madinah. The people of the Arabic tounge does not need written copies as the Quran is mainly memorized.

The written copies are for those not having Arabic tounge.

I have a question for Altojo:

How do you explain the Quran being memorized by millions of people spread all over the world and yet their memorization fits each other exactly without any inconsistency?
======================================================= ========

Altojo writes: Oh by the way, Al-Azhar teaches folklores and the Arab Religion. Recital and never reading the Quran as it should. These are never ISLAM as per Quran. That is why most if not ALL so-called 'Islamic' countries are in turmoil and hell on Earth. Do not blame it on anyone else or secularism and so on. It is all out of your own doing.


MY REPLY: Yet, all Islamic lands are ruled by secular elites of the muslim world and not religious people among Muslims.

Altojo is so out of touch with reality. He makes his blame based of figment of his own imagination.

To date, we haven’t seen a single evidence linking Islam to the degradation of Muslims.
Oh except for excerpts of Altojo’s imagination.
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written by cabearth, January 31, 2008 21:42:49
Oh before i forget Altojo,

Azhar teaches a course called "Usul Ad Din" which loosely translated as "genesis of religion". In which it teaches where all of Islam is sourced.

And throughout the centuries, it is taught to millions of people. Yet, no one came up and said the quran did not exist.

You, Altojo, didn't learn a single thing yet u come out questioning stuff which is already public knowledge.

Sad if u ask me
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written by temenggong, January 31, 2008 21:45:38
Dear indianputra, why don't you go take a tour of the rural areas and see Malays bathe in the river where they also wash their clothes and take the same water to cook their meals.

Those who want to see poor malays and chinese, please take a slow drive from Maran to Jerantut. I drove there last week. It shocked my kids.

Your BN govt let you down.
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written by indianputra, January 31, 2008 22:13:16
written by Raja Petra, January 31, 2008 | 19:28:03

Daer indianputra, why don't you go take a tour of the rural areas and see Malays bathe in the river where they also wash their clothes and take the same water to cook their meals. Whenever there is a cholera outbreak it is the Malays who get it and many die because of it. Hey, poverty is not the exclusive domain of the Indians. Malays, Chinese, those in Sabah/Sarawak, are sometimes worse off. You are a racist of the worst kind. I used to give shoes to Malay kids in Terengganu who walk to school barefooted and put their shoes on outside the school gates before entering the school compound because they do not want to wear off their shoes.
------------------------------------------------------------------

My dear RPK... I just don't understand your logic. The Bumiputras are enjoying everything in Malaysia. e.g

1) Government jobs
2) Discount on purchasing of houses/apartment and palaces
3) ASN - bonus is just given to them every year at the expense of tax payers
4) Contracts - it is all Bumi's
5) NEP = what more can I say?
6) All the TOP positions in corporate world
7) 90% of Malaysian cabinet posts
smilies/cool.gif All top positions in civil service
9) Blessings of UMNO

Hello, what more do they want? Of course you see pockets of poverty here and there... Am I still wrong in saying that the Bumiputras are GETTING EVERYTHING IN MALAYSIA while the non-Bumi's are getting NOTHING other than when THEY BEG!!!

Come on RPK.. Just look at Petronas employment and contractual policy.. It's 99% Bumi's.. WHAT ABOUT NON-BUMI'S?? Aren't the non-Malays also MALAYSIAN CITIZENS!!??

What did I say? I want the educated Malays to FEEL GUILTY of what the BN Government is doing. I want the Malays to feel ashamed that they are short changing the non-Bumis. I know Malays are a loving lot and caring, and if I don't highlight this to them, they will be complacent

If you and Temenggong want to see examples of Indians living in utter poverty LET ME KNOW!

Come on you guys, get a life!! and you call me a RACIST??
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written by mikewang, January 31, 2008 23:05:19
If I were born a Muslim, God help me please not to be born a Muslim, especially a Malay Muslim, in this country.
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written by Semuaok, February 01, 2008 01:31:26
RPK your reason of poor Malay is noted, please do not question us on helping the Malay. we understand there is a lot of poor Malay as well as Indian and Chinese. The poor need help, and it's a right thing to do to help them. But the NEP is not doing what it suppose to do. We got angry because the rich Malay is hijacking the NEP, and only Malay irregardless whether rich or poor is being help. Please look at it from another angle. I do not understand why you continue to answer along your racist line.
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written by C360, February 01, 2008 01:42:17
POVERTY : you dont have to go out of the city to find it .. you can find it in small little corners of the city, in the squatter areas .. then there is the other kind of poverty, the knowledge poverty .. in this I am sadden that it exists in the shadows of one of our national institutions (I will not name it here) within the city limits .. 30 year olds who cannot write .. WE (not differentiating the color of our skin) OWE OUR FELLOW RAKYAT ALL THE HELP WE CAN OFFER .. LEAVE NO ONE BEHIND, HOLD NO ONE BACK ..

ISLAM : I see a lot of discussion over the Quran and the language, even assertions that Friday sessions are conducted in Arabic (to justify the Allah exclusivity) .. try going to china (MUSLIM CHINA) and you will find sessions conducted in Mandarin .. try going anywhere in the world (MUSLIM WORLD) and you will find sessions conducted in the local language .. the common denominator is that PRAYERS are conducted in Arabic .. so GROW UP .. and STOP BEING THE PROVERBIAL KATAK DI BAWAH TEMPURUNG ..

MALAYS : I quote a devout practising Malay Muslim .. "there is no compulsion in Islam as a religion and it's practises tapi kalau ikut Melayu, kena terima aje" .. and from another Muslim professional who works with the food processing industry "from my work, I now find that some chicken processing by non-muslim businesses that do not carry the halal certification actually have MORE halal practise compliance than the MALAY businesses involved in chicken processing that carry the halal certification" .. this (I was enlightened by the individual) relates to the "healthy unstressed condition" of the chicken as it heads for slaughter ..

EDUCATION : When you go around declaring things haram WITHOUT supporting science, you basically "THROW THE BABY OUT WITH THE BATHWATER" .. would it surprise anyonw that Islamic states are generally relatively disadvantaged ? When Muslims DO NOT see their INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY to validate and verify what they are taught by the Imams and Religious Authorities, and CONTINUE to PROPAGATE the half-truths and outright lies they are taught .. then claim that the Imams and Religious Authorities are the ones responsible for the mis-teachings and have to answer to ALLAH thereafter .. WITHOUT ADDRESSING THEIR OWN INDIVIDUAL ROLES IN PROPAGATING the mis-teachings they learned .. DID NOT and DO NOT CORRECT their own learnings .. provides a CONVENIENT EXCUSE for IRRESPONSIBILITIES (including the Imams and Religious Authorities who do not do enough research of issues at hand) ..

HYPOCRISY & KNOWLEDGE MALIGNMENT : In Islam it is often said "only ALLAH can judge" .. yet actions taken by anyone is a result of some judgement .. put this aside and consider something done wrong by a Malay Muslim, more specifically in the context of the above points .. teacher teach wrongly or did not teach .. Malay Muslim learns wrongly or out of context .. applies learning or rather mis-apply, propagates mislearning .. results (and impact) less than desirable .. it's not his/her fault (teacher teach wrongly, notwithstanding he/she did not validate/verify the teachings) .. the resulting wrongs CANNOT BE JUDGED (neither punished) .. does this all sound familiar yet ?

I find it sad that the combination of a lack of knowledge (general and specialised) and Malay culture fundamentally puts Islam in this country in a less than desirable image not befitting it's position ..

And ultimately the excuse at the end of the line .. "external forces are attacking Islam" ..
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written by Semuaok, February 01, 2008 01:45:52
For those who think I hate Islam, My hate for Islam grow by the days, I do not like it myself but it's what it is. I don't think I need to change at this moment. Some of you hate what I have said but it might be something you (Islam) need to know.
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written by Zainal, February 01, 2008 05:02:26
cabearth wrote

MY REPLY: Try reading 12:02

“we have sent it down, an arabic koran, in order that you understand. (2)”.

Since the Quran is sent down in Arabic, as testified by the Quran, therefore we must understand the Quran in the language God prescribed, right?

It’s amazing that u take part of the Quran u like and discard what u don’t like u ignore.
.........................................................................................

Dear cabearth

I quoted a few verses from the quran just to get to a point, then you quoted 12.02 translated in English. Arent we reading and understanding the Quran in English now? Get my point?

Open up your mind! Think and dont be blind!

How do you think the teachings of Islam came about to you and me and all around the world? The Arabs started learning the languages of the people whom they are to teach the contents of the Quran. And that is precisely what verse 44.58 in the quran says. But of course its better that if we can read and UNDERSTAND in Arab. But it is also nothing wrong if we read it in our language to UNDERSTAD the Quran. UNDERSTAND?

By the way that translation for 12.02 that you quote, does not neccessarily have to mean that the quran is sent in the arabic language. ARABIYYAN here could also mean CLEAN, HOLY, or in Malay. SUCI. If translated literally word by word it could also mean, in Malay, "Sesungguhnya kami menurunkan bacaan bahasa suci/bersih/ agar kamu menggunakan aqal" Jadi nak baca Quran ni kena lah pakai aqal, jangan membuta tuli.

Now you know why it is good that we also learn other languages? Like the legendary Hang Tuah who is said could read ten different languages?
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written by Raja Petra, February 01, 2008 08:19:32
Indianputra said: I want the educated Malays to FEEL GUILTY of what the BN Government is doing. I want the Malays to feel ashamed that they are short changing the non-Bumis.

Dear Indianputra, no, I don't feel guilty because I DID NOT vote for BN. Want to know who voted for BN? Let me give you a hint: those who voted for BN are those complaining the most about unfair, injustice, being short-changed etc. And they vote BN because they say they got no choice. Thambi....porah.

Anyway, what has your bitching got to do with the subject of this article? You are out of topic lah!
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written by Raja Petra, February 01, 2008 08:32:27
Dear cabearth, Hebrew and Greek goes back more than 2,000 years and there are still text dating from that period available today. I can't say the same for Arabic unless you look at Syriac and Aramaic text as 'Arabic'. Shalom is Hebrew for peace and Ashlem is Syriac for surrender. In Arabic it is salam and islam respectively. Both salam and islam come from the root word SLM. You just add in the vowels which did not exist in the old days and you get salam, islam, salom, salim, silam, aslam, salamu, etc., which all use the same root word SLM but have different meanings with the vowels inserted.

Anyway, it appears like we have a deadlock so I will end my post on that subject. We are both stuck in our own beliefs and there is nothing either of us can say that will change the other's mind.
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written by cruzeiro, February 01, 2008 09:56:13
Indianputra,
The way you put your argument, definitely has a racist slant to it even though there's truth in it.
However, you should be aware that there are equal if not more among Malays who are disadvantaged, due to being willing pawns in the game of "Ketuanan Melayu", that is meant to create an "elite" Malay class. These guys (the disadvantaged) are kept ill-informed and dependent on hand-outs/tongkats, thus rendering them slaves to their political masters, in their own land - all in the ego boosting rhetoric of "Ketuanan Melayu" and "Islamic supremacy".

Yes - the Indians (Tamilians, actually) have been neglected. It is primarily due to their blind devotion to their God-like "thalaivars", and their "Ketuanan Tamil" rhetoric. Their predicament is almost the same as that of the rural Malays. Don't come and tell me I'm wrong here - 'cos I've spoken to some of those idiotic "big-shots" myself.
It took a trillion-dollar gimmick to wake these idiots from their slumber, and parade at Ampang under a "race & religion" platform to make a show of their 50yrs of stupidity.

Don't go around giving this "race" argument, when the real issue is about the theft from the coffers by the "social contractors" who come in all colors and sizes.
There enough racial animosity as it is, that plays into the hands of the "Putras", at the end of the day.
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written by indianputra, February 01, 2008 09:59:40
written by Raja Petra, February 01, 2008 | 08:19:32

Indianputra said: I want the educated Malays to FEEL GUILTY of what the BN Government is doing. I want the Malays to feel ashamed that they are short changing the non-Bumis.

Dear Indianputra, no, I don't feel guilty because I DID NOT vote for BN. Want to know who voted for BN? Let me give you a hint: those who voted for BN are those complaining the most about unfair, injustice, being short-changed etc. And they vote BN because they say they got no choice. Thambi....porah.

Anyway, what has your bitching got to do with the subject of this article? You are out of topic lah!
======================================================= ==========

RPK, although I beg to disagree with you on what you stated above, I will quit the arguement because I respect you and any more arguements with you will create a situation where you will be making more illogical statements.

Peace RPK
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written by indianputra, February 01, 2008 10:22:34
written by cruzeiro, February 01, 2008 | 09:56:13

Indianputra,

The way you put your argument, definitely has a racist slant to it even though there's truth in it.
However, you should be aware that there are equal if not more among Malays who are disadvantaged, due to being willing pawns in the game of "Ketuanan Melayu", that is meant to create an "elite" Malay class. These guys (the disadvantaged) are kept ill-informed and dependent on hand-outs/tongkats, thus rendering them slaves to their political masters, in their own land - all in the ego boosting rhetoric of "Ketuanan Melayu" and "Islamic supremacy".

Yes - the Indians (Tamilians, actually) have been neglected. It is primarily due to their blind devotion to their God-like "thalaivars", and their "Ketuanan Tamil" rhetoric. Their predicament is almost the same as that of the rural Malays. Don't come and tell me I'm wrong here - 'cos I've spoken to some of those idiotic "big-shots" myself.
It took a trillion-dollar gimmick to wake these idiots from their slumber, and parade at Ampang under a "race & religion" platform to make a show of their 50yrs of stupidity.

Don't go around giving this "race" argument, when the real issue is about the theft from the coffers by the "social contractors" who come in all colors and sizes.
There enough racial animosity as it is, that plays into the hands of the "Putras", at the end of the day.
======================================================= ======
cruzeiro,

I agree with most of what you have written. However, I am not a racist..just saying my piece as an Indian...

If /Najib/Hisyhamuddin/KJ can and do everything for the Malays, OKT and his goons can do everything for the Chinese - do they become or called as racists? The problem is this. Samy and his MIC goons have done NOTHING for the Indians. As you rightfully stated, the HINDRAF gave a boost for the Indian rights in Malaysia ... AND THEY WERE INSINUATED AS RACISTS!!!

Why is that ONLY WHEN INDIANS ask for their rights, they become racists? This is true marginalization even in speech!
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written by Raja Petra, February 01, 2008 10:23:15
Dear indianputra, logical and illogical are matters of interpretation and belief. Muslims think it is illogical that Christians believe Christ died on the cross and Christians think it is illogical that Muslims believe Muhammad travelled on a winged-horse to heaven. The Jews think BOTH Christians and Muslims are illogical for not believing that the true religion is the religion of Moses though nearly half the world is Christian-Muslim. Can half the world be wrong? That is illogical because majority rules and surely half the world must be right. So beliefs have nothing to do with logic and just because someone believes the opposite of what you believe does not make it illogical. There is another word for illogical. It is called FAITH. Faith defies logic. And faith lies in the eyes of the beholder. One man's faith is another man's lack of logic.
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written by cruzeiro, February 01, 2008 10:34:29
If /Najib/Hisyhamuddin/KJ can and do everything for the Malays, OKT and his goons can do everything for the Chinese - do they become or called as racists? The problem is this. Samy and his MIC goons have done NOTHING for the Indians. As you rightfully stated, the HINDRAF gave a boost for the Indian rights in Malaysia ... AND THEY WERE INSINUATED AS RACISTS!!!

Why is that ONLY WHEN INDIANS ask for their rights, they become racists?
=====================

Dear IP,
Nobody said Mr. Chris and Mr. Cutting aren't racists. Nor have I said the same about Mr. Value or Hindraf.

Just that they all play the same game - all are no better than each other.

The sad part is you still wanna play the losing hand in the game of political poker .... and don't seem to realize it!

When will people start playing the game of meritocracy?
Just speak of excellence/ economy and start a class action based on these human values, instead of the good ol' "R&R" logic that you keep going back to!
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written by indianputra, February 01, 2008 11:00:16
written by Semuaok, February 01, 2008 | 10:17:53

This is the problem with Indian. Giving up when face with obstacle. And worst off because of some illogical statements and yet respect him.
===============================

Dear 'semuaok',

Read the innersignificance of what I wrote instead of blabbering without thinking.. That's why I keep saying, THINK MAN, THINK!!!

Well for you 'SEMUA OK WHAT!!!"
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written by Semuaok, February 01, 2008 11:51:05
Indianputra, you can blame me or other for your suffering. But when are you going to look after yourself? What have you done for your community? Why are Indian companies not hiring Indian? If anyone tell you these are racist. F**k them. IP I'm sorry to tell you that everything is not ok
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written by indianputra, February 01, 2008 13:14:15
My dear Semua OK,

I am blaming the Malaysian Government led by the UMNO for the status of Indians in Malaysia. Do you want me to repeat? I will!1

* 90 % of all jobs in the civil service are for the Malays
* 98% Of all jobs in Petronas is for Malays
* 95% Of all CEO's & MD's of GLC's are Malays
* 90% of all police are Malays
* 95% Of all Head Masters of schools are Malays
* 95% Of all Government contract goes to Malays
* 85% Of Malaysian Cabinet are Malays
* 90% of all nurses in Malaysia are Malays
* 96% of Malaysian Army, Airforce and Navy is manned by the Malays
* 10% Discount is given to Malays to purchase houses
* With UMNO support almost all Malay Businessmen are guarenteed Bank and SME loans
* 90% of all Government linked Education establishment have Malay students

Now, who is masterminding this? It is NOT YOU AND I. It is the UMNO led Government. MIC and MCA are given handouts by this Government to satisfy the Indians and Chinese. Yet, these handouts do not reach the Rakyat and pocketted handsomely by the leaders.

So, what do we do?? GET RID OF BN. My plea for the Malays to feel guilty was to make them feel that this Government is unfair to the Indian and Chinese brothers and hopefully they will vote the opposition to reduce the 2/3 majority BN is having now. I know Malays. They are kind, have tremendous values, respects human beings and will ever support the downtrodden.... at least the vast majority of them.

Semua OK, thank you for your concern about me.. I am also OK!! What I have done for my community. Yes, I have done a lot but not going to highlight in here. For the information of RPK, I have not only given slippers but entire uniforms too to the needy.
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written by FunFunTim, February 02, 2008 15:54:25
Dear Raja Petra
You said "I have no sympathy for people who bitch and grumble and do not register as voters"
C'mon lah...grumbling is the most polite form of fighting known in the BolehLand and bitching can at least get the benefit of the doubt out LOUD!

Won't you agree that we must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the same sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart? Anyway, most people kiss ass not kick ass...yuke!
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