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Sigh……how do we educate Malaysians? PDF Print
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Tuesday, 10 March 2009 09:43

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Today, I want to talk about these three news items from The Star. I admit I have already elaborated on these issues in great detail in the past. For all intents and purposes, I am merely repeating myself. But it appears they are still harping on these issues so I have no choice but to continue flogging what I view as a dead horse.

NO HOLDS BARRED

Raja Petra Kamarudin

1) Massive gatherings mark Prophet Muhammad’s birthday
The Star

Muslims from all walks of life came together in massive gatherings to celebrate Maulidur Rasul yesterday. (Read more here: http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2009/3/10/nation/3443858&sec=nation)

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2) Lam Thye: Why question English policy now?
The Star

Social activist Tan Sri Lee Lam Thye has defended the use of English in the teaching of Mathematics and Science.

“Why question it now? I am surprised that there are groups who are questioning the policy after it has been in place for six years. There is nothing wrong with the policy, although there might be weaknesses in its implementation,” he said when contacted yesterday. (Read more here: http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2009/3/10/nation/3440633&sec=nation)

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3) Make stand on Islamic state, MCA Youth tells DAP
The Star

The DAP should stop being “two-faced” and declare its stand on the Islamic state issue, said MCA Youth chief Datuk Dr Wee Ka Siong.

Dr Wee said that whenever PAS spoke about an Islamic state, DAP would contradict the party’s Islamic state agenda before the media and public.

“It appears that DAP is playing a two-face role, whereby DAP rejects the Islamic state in front of non-Muslims but supports hudud and qisas when dealing with PAS,” he said in a statement. (Read more here: http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2009/3/10/nation/3441315&sec=nation)

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On the first item above, about the massive turnout to celebrate Prophet Muhammad’s birthday, I have this to say.

There is nothing wrong in celebrating birthdays -- whether it is your Prophet’s, your wife’s, your parents’, your children’s, your friends’, or whatever. But can you imagine celebrating your close friend’s birthday and then slandering him or her after that? Would this not be viewed as hypocrisy? If you treasure or value that person enough to want to celebrate his or her birthday, would you not want to say nice things instead of bad things about him or her?

You honour a Prophet not merely by marching on the streets and by chanting praises to him -- although, as I said, there is nothing wrong in that if that is how you wish to celebrate the birthday. Of course, some Muslims would regard this is bida’ah or a deviant practice. They would argue that Prophet Muhammad decreed that Muslims must follow his example and since here are no records of Prophet Muhammad ever celebrating his birthday would that, therefore, not be considered as deviating from what the Prophet had decreed?

Anyway, today I do not wish to engage in a debate as to whether celebrating the Prophet’s birthday is wrong or right. In case you did not know, according to what the historians tell us, Prophet Muhammad died on his birthday so you are actually celebrating both his birthday and ‘death-day’ at the same time.

If you really want to honour the Prophet, then the best way would be to do so by following his teachings. And what, you may ask, did the Prophet teach us?

To answer that question would require volumes upon volumes of thesis and could never be covered in these four or five pages. I will, however, in as brief as possible, try to summarise my thoughts on the matter.

There are many Hadith or sayings of the Prophet, which are considered part of the holy text and a close second to the Quran, the Holy Book of Islam. Some of these Hadith relate the story of Abu Hurairah, the most notable of narrators of Hadith, as being horse-whipped by Omar, the Second Caliph of Islam -- who ruled after Abu Bakar, the First Caliph. According to this particular Hadith, Omar once whipped Abu Hurairah and ordered him to never again write any false Hadith or else he shall be whacked all the way back to Yemen, Abu Hurairah’s country of origin as well as that of our Malaysian Minister, Syed Hamid Albar.

Another Hadith relates how, one night, Omar could not sleep and was tossing and turning in his bed. He was feeling guilty because he had written down what the Prophet had said and he knew that was wrong. He got up and burned what he had written and only after that could he sleep soundly.

Then, yet another Hadith, relates the story about Prophet Muhammad walking by and, seeing Abu Bakar writing something, asked him what it was he was writing. Abu Bakar replied he was writing what the Prophet had said a short while ago and it is said the Prophet got angry and told him to destroy what he had written. The Prophet then instructed Abu Bakar to inform all others who had written anything he had said to also destroy them. The Prophet did not want anything other than the Quran on record to avoid disputes in future.

Now, these are all accepted Hadith. But these Hadith relate stories about how Prophet Muhammad has banned Hadith. The Prophet wants only the Quran to be the guidance for Muslims.

Maybe the Prophet knew something we all don’t. Can you see how, when the non-Muslims whack Islam, they use the Hadith as their point of reference? These people quote the many Hadith in their arguments to ‘prove’ that Islam is not what it appears to be. Take yesterday’s letter from The Anti Jihadist (RPK, a liar for Islam, or just incredibly ignorant?) as a case in point.

If you accept Hadith as valid, then many Hadith relate stories of Prophet Muhammad forbidding Hadith. How do Muslims reconcile this issue? But if you don’t accept Hadith, as many Muslims today do not, then the issue is a non-issue. But then the Hadith that relates stories of the Prophet forbidding Hadith would also go out the window.

The best way to celebrate Prophet Muhammad’s teachings would not be by marching and chanting. The best way would be to remember him by remembering his teachings. But Muslims are still very ignorant as to what his teachings are. So they resent what they perceive as non-Muslims criticising Islam. They consider this a crime.

Prophet Muhammad was the person who delivered the Quran -- not only to Muslims, but to all mankind. And if the Quran was what the Prophet taught us then Muslims must be aware that the Quran never forbade criticism. Instead, the Quran asks us to engage the critics in a civil, matured and gentle manner. No harsh words should be used and we must not be confrontational in our approach. This is what the Quran says so this is also what the Prophet wants us to do.

But do Muslims do this? First they want to ban any criticism of Islam or of the Prophet. They want to make it a crime and to punish anyone who they perceive as insulting Islam or the Prophet. And non-Muslims judge Islam by what Muslims do, not by what the Quran says. Yes, non-Muslims have a low opinion of Islam. But this is only because we act in a manner that gives Islam this poor image. And they will quote certain Hadith to support their arguments, which in the first place the Prophet has clearly forbidden, according, ironically, to the Hadith itself.

Muslims need to go back to the drawing board and try to ‘rediscover’ Islam. That would be how the Prophet would like to be remembered. That would be also how the Prophet would like his birthday cum death-day celebrated. And Muslims would be doing the Prophet a great service by first understanding Islam so that they can then make the non-Muslims also understand Islam.

On the second news item about the English language, Lam Thye was only half-right. He only spoke about the weak implementation of teaching English for science and maths. Actually, we have a weak education system, full stop.

When we stifled the education system by banning students from thinking that was when our education system started going downhill. The Japanese learn in Japanese, the Thais in Thai, the Indonesians in Indonesian, and so on. If you want to go to France to study you need to first learn French. Has using languages other than English ever been a problem for non-English speaking countries?

However, in these countries I quoted, they allow students to think. In Malaysia, we do not allow the same. We even have laws that make it a crime for students to get involved in politics.

Students must be allowed to think. They must be allowed to dissent if they wish to. Only through activism will students develop. Telling students what they can and cannot think does not help them develop. This is where the problem lies.

They can speak Swahili for all I care. But as long as they are allowed to think and can think for themselves then they can develop into the type of people we would like them to. But to treat students as if they were children would mean they would grow up to become children.

Innovation can’t be stifled. By stifling the freedom to develop means we are stifling growth itself. And that is why Malaysian students can’t develop. It is not about the language. It is about what we have not allowed them to become.

On MCA’s challenge to DAP: DAP has said time and again that it is opposed to the Islamic State. Why keep harping on the issue? How many times does DAP have to repeat it is opposed to the Islamic State?

DAP opposes the Islamic State. It has said so many, many times. Can we now let the matter rest before this develops into a Muslim versus non-Muslim skirmish the likes of ‘May 13’? Really, who needs a religious ‘war’ painting the streets of Kuala Lumpur red like what we have seen in many other countries?

MCA is hoping that DAP will melatah and say something silly so that this will drive a wedge between the three component members of Pakatan Rakyat. The Malays call this cucuk. They want to cucuk DAP so that the party utters some negative comments about PAS and/or Islam.

I really hope DAP will not be stupid enough to walk into MCA’s trap. Some of the DAP leaders have been in politics since I was still a schoolboy, but sometimes they act like amateurs who don’t know a trap even if it bit them in their backsides.

MCA is trying to make it appear that Islam is bad and therefore DAP must, yet again, whack the Islamic State to show it is not also bad. Hello…..where are Umno and the Islamic NGOs? Aren’t they going to make police reports and demonstrate in front of the MCA headquarters in Jalan Ampang? MCA is turning the Islamic State into a bogeyman, and on Prophet Muhammad’s birthday on top of that.

Hudud and Qisas are laws which the Muslims regard as God’s laws. No doubt Malaysia is a Secular State and not a Theocratic State, so Islamic laws can’t be imposed in this country. But why can’t we leave it at that? Why must MCA paint a scenario that PAS is bad because the Islamic laws that PAS talks about are bad -- and therefore DAP must prove it is not also bad by whacking PAS? The issue is presented as an Islamic State is bad and unless DAP whacks Islam then DAP is also bad.

Aiyoyo MCA. Be careful with what you say. I am liberal enough to allow dissent and criticism of Islam and/or the Prophet. I will not ask for your blood to be spilt. But there are people like JAKIM and JAKUN who will make police reports and will ask you to be detained without trial under the Internal Security Act.

Hell, even I who have been accused of being a Muslim ‘apologist’ because I am always defending Islam have been accused of insulting Islam and have suffered detention. What more you MCA people who are trying to use Islam as the whipping boy in your efforts to whack DAP? I mean, whack DAP if you want to. But why must you whack DAP on grounds that DAP has not whacked Islam enough?

Comments (74)Add Comment
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written by timmy, March 10, 2009 09:57:57
On Q3, DAP should ask back MCA, on their stand on Perak. The 2 Ongs should answer this, Ong Ka Chuan and Ong Tee Keat.

No matter how you answer, you are going to be doom one way or another. One from the rakyat and the another one from the UMNO.

You'll see for yourself next GE.
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written by Newkidonblog, March 10, 2009 09:58:38
Sigh! No wonder the famous financial investor TV commentator Jim Roger said Malaysia politicians are worse than the American politicians! He also said no investors will come to Malaysia if in 1998, your PM plays GOD with his currency......like pegging it!

Now, who was the PM in 1998?
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written by noblepath, March 10, 2009 10:00:34
The story of the Hadith is just the same to the Hindus; how the caste system was degenerated and perverted by the ruling class to keep them in power and in control. That's not the real teachings of Hinduism - so the same case for the Hadith I suppose...
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written by Ben, March 10, 2009 10:07:14
Thank you Boss for the simple explanation on the difference between hadith and hadith nots. My mind was really muddled after reading anti-jihadist piece. It just goes to show how we can be manipulated to believe what anti-jihadist wants us to believe or at least confuse us. Is he the same guy who had given statements to police that led to your arrest? I think he goes by another pseudonym, like tulang besi or something like that. Anyway, he owes MT an apology for assuming that MT will not publish it. But then again if he thinks MT will not publish it, why send it in the first place. He is a really confused person, isn't he?
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written by sorosapril, March 10, 2009 10:08:10
RPK, may be DAP should also ask MCA Youth Leader, Dr Wee to stand his stand on the Islamic State issue, so far when BN people from UMNO said Malaysia is a islamic state, no one from MCA said anything, does it mean they support islamic state if there is such a state?
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written by malgal, March 10, 2009 10:23:33
MCA is scraping the bottom of their irrelevant barrel for their survival ticket. Having scraped zero, they have to resort to picking a bone with DAP. Maybe that's why a unity government exists only in dreamscape.
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written by imanj, March 10, 2009 10:25:26
No 'tasty' haram bacon breakfast for me,but the innocent smile on my daughter's,face filled my appetite of hopes'for any kind of future in this country or even in the world. KNOWLEDGE = an essential tool for awarness, understanding, information, a way to analise,excel and gain to asertain oneself..etc. Only then we may not be too critical of one another,and to and be in acceptance to understand,that positive changes are necessary for positive progression.

LANGUAGE isn't the enemy we make it to be. LAWS in RELIGION: my opinion if bad and evil rates high in popularity,then probably any law implemented looks like we are already in HELL.
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written by educationist, March 10, 2009 10:36:50
Where was the the MCA when the UMNOputras declared that Malaysia is an Islamic state?
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written by Msian Idol3, March 10, 2009 10:36:58
If thats all they can ask DAP then all those Chinese who support MCA better throw away their membership card. Ask something on where the country is heading in terms of corruption, meritocracies, opportunities for all, education and not on something that would never happen in the next 50 years. Otak of MCA youth leader shows the mentality trend in this pariah party. As far as I believe, at the rate the muslim population is exploding - whether non muslim like it or not, Msia can turn into an islamic country with hudud laws even sooner and what can MCA do ??? UMNO will just tell the lap dog parties take it or take the next sampan out. Fight for a better society & not hudud this & dat. MCA is an ostrich party.
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written by Oscar Winner, March 10, 2009 10:38:08
Too bad religion is used by you-know-who to muster political support, ultimately for own agenda. ie. all about avarice. Unlike PAS whose leaders are humble, fair and frugal.

MCA are a bunch of self-serving hypocrites. To Ong and Chua, the so-called Kangkong team, this is for you:-

OTK and CSL are kangkong,
But they ain’t kingkong
No matter how they hit the gong,
Most Chinese will not sing along,
Coz UMNO is still singing same old song,
Forever racist and sombong,
Do nothing right except wrong,
And use machinations to stay strong....
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written by cruzeiro, March 10, 2009 10:39:13
AJ wants to whack you for talking about the philosophy of Islam, using the conduct of Muslims who practice it in the wrong spirit. Muslims overall (generally speaking lah) have created and unwittingly continue to nurture all the negative perceptions of Islam, through their conduct. They try to use war-time decisions of the Prophet, to legitimize their conduct in a peaceful pluralist Malaysia.
Meanwhile MCA (and DAPSY) wants DAP to whack PAS for "Islamic state" issue, when there is no such thing in the real sense of the word - just so that they can perpetuate this selfish sectarian politics of mutual suspicion.

The Govt - just as in any third-world dictatorships, reinforces these perceptions through their practice of intolerance. The excuse they use for violent repression and politics of hate, is that they want "Peace, law & order" - while the people have to live in fear.
The Govt wants to have a "first-world" mindset, with banana republic conduct, by firing tear gas on literary laureates.
They fail to understand that - freedom & the media is to democracies, what violent repression is to dictatorships.

These guys - how to educate them .... very susah isn't it, Pete?
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written by onnetline, March 10, 2009 10:41:01
Dr Wee Ka Siong,

DAP party is not a pariah slave dog to any party, unlike you and the rest of the MCA hypocrites !
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written by SamSan, March 10, 2009 10:47:34
MCA should rightfully challenge its boss and ruling party UMNO and not DAP on whether Malaysia is a secular or an Islamic State. According to Che Det's interpretation of the much raped and sodomised constitution (wherein MCA kept quiet and DAP made all the empty noise), Malaysia is an Islamic State for all intents and purposes as most of its secular laws are basically influenced / oriented in general terms by Islamic Law. Even hudud law if it can be modernised to present times and presented / couched in general terms, can be acceptable as a Secular Law. So my advice to MCA is to pose the same question to its boss UMNO and not DAP.
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written by clusco, March 10, 2009 10:58:25
Yeah! I knew that RPK can educate Malaysians. Yes he can....
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written by 1351, March 10, 2009 10:59:45
Yes RPK, you have to harp on and repeat yourself. That allows for past and present readers to wise up all over and also for the benefit for the many with short attention deficit.

Time is of the essence so I won't drag on but at least take on this message and remember - no matter if it is Dollah Badawi or Najib Razak at the helm, it is still the same two cheeks on that very butt of an arse named UMNO. And for that, we must continue to resist.

Casper
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written by amjoem, March 10, 2009 11:08:02
Hello Msian Idol3,
Your comments were superb and excellent. You said all it in a nut shell.
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written by malsia1206, March 10, 2009 11:11:54
Educate our young Malaysians like the ways they feed our Barisan politicians. Gives them privileges and scholaships with taxpayers' moneys, places in our Universities without the grades, pamper them, and graduate them with paper degrees all over year-in, year-out without meritocracy. Then let these graduates start to fend for themselves in the challenging global communities. When they cannot get jobs, this Government can always absord them in some corners of the grand offices, Ministries, Statutory Bodies including some of the blue chip Companies in Bursa. Because they are simply so good with their maths and science in Bahasa Malaysia and they can compete with the best anywhere, anytime.
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written by DezMalaysia, March 10, 2009 11:26:52
Truly speaking, many Malaysian chinese do not like the way those "Pariah" MCA dogs' style of approach in engaging voters & rakyats. Always stroking racial & religion hatred in co-op with their Master UMNO.

And, young MCA members like example, this one, http://profiles.friendster.com/27144680
is quite boiled on his blood to steer MCA to a better high once again. I would just say, "Just Bury the trash !".
Once a person joined BN, they'll caught the epidemic of "ignorance" & "feeling good".

The conclusion is, MCA does not represent the WHOLE CHINESE ! Go ahead ! Bakar bangunan MCA tu ! Teach those idiots a lesson !

PERSATUAN JUAL CINA MALAYSIA
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written by Tornado, March 10, 2009 11:28:06
RPK,

1. I'm agree. Most muslim forget the basic of Islam, Allah s.w.t, Rasulullah s.a.w & Amar Mahruf Nahi Mungkar.

2. Again, i'm agree. The problem is not the language. If our non-malay can score in their Bahasa Malaysia, language is not the problem. It's totally our education system weak.

3. Also, i'm agree. Why asking same thing, same question again and again? What the point? And where is UMNO, allowing their friend keep question/asking same thing again and again. Should DAP answering? if yes, what is the answer? Arghhhhhhhhhhh.....we are in middle of economic difficulties, is the question related????
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written by funfac3, March 10, 2009 11:31:23
Islamic state or secular state cannot be as frightening as a police state! And it looks like we're headed that way!
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written by teo siew chin, March 10, 2009 11:40:56
Dear Yang Mulia Raja Petra

You are totally doing your part educating us on Islam aint ya you sneaky fella u! Beads, peace-pipes, cool shades - no fatwa on those yet. But i would think you champion the fight against corruption, injustice becos you are YOU, not so much cos you are a Muslim, right? You flog well, so do carry on until the dead horse is gone and buried.
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written by Kathy, March 10, 2009 11:53:28
Dear RPK

On a totally different subject, why hasn't there been any response to your article "The truth that refuses to surface" together with Sirul's statement that was recorded by the Police?
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written by malaysianohope, March 10, 2009 11:55:59
Abang,
You speak like a true saviour for 'Lost' Malaysia... close enough to be called a Malaysian Messiah, as in Obama the American Messiah!
It's so true about the need to go down to basics ie. preaching & practising the true ways of the Prophet instead of going round reminding people of His birthday (didn't know that its also his passing).
"Substance over Form" is the mantle for the day!
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written by clarity, March 10, 2009 12:11:12
RPK, This time I have to agree with you totally. In religion Hadi Awang even said the non malays are more acceptable to their religious laws as it does not apply to non malays. I am one of them and I support DAP as well. There are also some friends of mine who agrees with me and they support PKR. And so MCA has still got to come out with some other interesting statements before they fade into oblivion.
It's just not possible to support every single thing from just one party.
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written by Jit Dharma, March 10, 2009 12:13:37
Bloody MCA running dogs think that we will also fall into their
trap.Your trap is useless because you are crap,so your trap is
CRAP.You should shut your trap!!!
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written by seeker, March 10, 2009 12:21:31
RPK,

ada juga hadis yang prophet minta ditulis semua hadis-hadisnya. Tidak ada pertembungan hadis, akan tetapi baginda;
1) mengelakkan bercampur antara Al-Quran dan hadis. Kepada yang secara pasti mampu mengelakannya. Tidak masalah mencatit hadis.
2)Isyarat dari prophet ,Setiap pekerjaan yang dilakukan mesti tumpu. Tak leh sorang individu.Dialah tulis Al-Quran dan dialah tulis hadis. Konsep ni diambil dalam penulisan thesis hari ini.

kemudian, banyak riwayat kisah-kisah fitnah kepada abu hurairah, Aisyah dan Abu bakar. Dari itu, kena diambil kisah dari sumber yang benar-benar pasti. Atau dalah istilah lain, riwayat yang bersanad. Sanad bukan hanya pada hadis sahaja.
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written by seeker, March 10, 2009 12:25:30
menyambut birthday nabi bukan bertujuan seperti yang rpk sebutkan. Itu satu peluang untuk sampaikan mesej dakwah kepada manusia-manusia yang tidak hadir kecuali pada majlis2 seperti itu
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written by BennyG, March 10, 2009 12:29:00
1. Glad to learn more about Islam.

2. Gov't finally found out why the students were not performing. Unqualified teachers!

3. Please ask the so called PR Aduns (at least they are useful somehow) in those NGOs to lead the protest against MCA for instigating the Muslims (especially when MCA never state their stand on Islamic state as well).
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written by seeker, March 10, 2009 12:29:07
apapun memang Malaysia hanya suka amik dari Islam yang kulit2nya sahaja. Stupid leader
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written by BennyG, March 10, 2009 12:31:58
2. Morons in the Education Ministry (if there are bright ones, the Education Minister will most probably blacklist them and put on the "cucuk with keris" list)
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written by miwaki, March 10, 2009 12:41:31
Ka Siong is a bastard without religion and he only prays to UMNO for prosperity.As far as Ka Siong is concerned,UMNO is the God and he would not embrace any religion except UMNO.

What is MCA anyway ? Chinese would not support MCA because one vote for MCA is equivalent to one vote for UMNO.
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written by KARMANNGHIA, March 10, 2009 12:43:25
Wee Kah Siong, just shut d fork up
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written by densemy, March 10, 2009 12:50:02
... and there was a massive exodus of muslims to picnic spots around KL to celebrate the Prophets birthday

Any Prophet would be justifiably proud of the litter and desecration left behind by the followers of the god who created this beautiful country

Go figure
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written by benny loh, March 10, 2009 12:53:14
MCA is trying to make it appear that Islam is bad and therefore DAP must, yet again, whack the Islamic State to show it is not also bad. Hello…..where are Umno and the Islamic NGOs?
Yes, go after this baby mother f------
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written by densemy, March 10, 2009 12:58:09
"Students must be allowed to think."

Then Islam should probibit the religious indoctrination of children below the age when they can reason for themselves

And Islam should impose none of its restrictions on the education system... nor use the education system to propogate its agenda

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written by singam, March 10, 2009 14:24:12
My observation of traditional Chinese and Indian education techniques is that the best way to effectively educate young children is to force them to repeat and recite. Repetition and recitation, punctuated by the occasional whack on the back or backside (depending on whether they are standing or sitting).

Educators trained in western education methodology may decry these as crude and barbaric methods, but they have worked. Especially for those chronically disinterested in education.

Once the children grow old enough to be able think for themselves, they are expected to study on their own. No spoonfeeding and no restrictions. They are allowed the freedom to develop to their full potential. Or fall by the wayside, as the case may be.

I think there is something to be said for traditional methods.
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written by chanatak, March 10, 2009 14:42:30
If you accept Hadith as valid, then many Hadith relate stories of Prophet Muhammad forbidding Hadith. How do Muslims reconcile this issue? But if you don’t accept Hadith, as many Muslims today do not, then the issue is a non-issue. But then the Hadith that relates stories of the Prophet forbidding Hadith would also go out the window.


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What a confused community ........ they do not know what they believe, nor what they had believed.

The imams do not know what they believe, neither the ustads. But they go on teaching what they do not know.

Muslims are a confused bunch, and are too prideful ( pride is a sin ) to admit it, so they easily get angry ( another sin ) and murderous ( another sin ) when they are criticized, because they do not know how to defend what is indefensible.

Oh oh. Someone is going to scream murder at me.
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written by densemy, March 10, 2009 14:47:27
Singam... wonderful idea if you want to produce unimaginative technocrats

Cos that's all you will get

Wheras muslims suppress their children's creative, imaginative and thinking skills through religious indoctrination and suppression of questioning and inquiry

The chinese and indians do it within the family with their obsession with absolute discipline, repression and over protectionism

All the schools do is to continue in the same mode because the students who come to the schools have already had their curiosity, creativity, imagination, innovation and the ability to think analytically destroyed

Children need to be stimulated and inspired and treated as individuals if you ever want Malaysia to be anything but a nation of mindless zombies
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written by areenna, March 10, 2009 15:33:54
That's funny.

Lee Lam Thye said : “Why question it now? I am surprised that there are groups who are questioning the policy after it has been in place for six years.

R: Many groups can questioning the NEP policy after it has been in place for more than 30 years six years but LLT said, Malay Language policy cannot be questioned because of it has been in place for 6 years, ma? Funny.

Many MT readers seem not really so support of Bahasa Malaysia now. When they talk about the Malay bible they says, "Sabah Sarawak people only understand Bahasa Malaysia, you know". Now, the these Sabah Sarawak people don't seem to be important to them.

Now there's no more "kehendak rakyat'. Have anyone really at least listen to the group that marched to Istana Negara that support of Bahasa Malaysia? Some the them have some really good points in why Bahasa Malaysia should be use. But no, because MT readers prefer to be spoonfeeded by RPK. "..

Those urbans kids that has parent who speak English as main language or second language should be no problem. What about those kids that dont speak English? Oh, "nevermind about those kids, lets urban kids has the first start in Science and mathematic, other kids can jus follow behind"

Japan can go far without using English in their education.
Why not us? Its lies not because of "english language" but in the whole eduaction system themselves.

P/s: Bernad Tompok in parliment said "In Malay Language ,'god' is 'allah'." Doesn't he know that the right word in Malay Language is 'Tuhan'. He doesn't even know that the word 'Tuhan' exists in Malay Language. Our education really bad.
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written by kawaafi, March 10, 2009 15:34:08
Salam RPK,

It is truly understandable that Prophet Muhammad pbuh had ask people not write down what he said but only the word of Allah swt.
1. At that time the Quran was not compiled in a book yet. So later during Sy. Uthman, who had compiled the Quran in a current book form, there should be no arguments on all written items but only words of Allah swt. See, we need those Hadiths to prove the authenticity of the Quran as well..smilies/smiley.gif
2. Hadith that contradict with the Quran is rejected as false hadith.
3. Hadith is not merely the words, but also the sanad(list of narrations to finally qualified to come from Prophet Muhammad pbuh)
4. Hadith were collected after 100 - 300 years after the death of Prophet Muhammad pbuh, that is why the Narrations is a must for a Hadith to be valid. There is more about hadith we need to learn and appreciate.
5. Abu Hurairah had spent 2 years of his life with Prophet Muhammad pbuh. He obviuosly narrated many hadith that can traced back to Prophet Muhammad pbuh mouth. There are many stories to discredit him, and some of them are just lies..
6. Just because some enemies of Islam had used false hadith to attack Islam, it does not warrant all the good things Hadith has provide to rejected. Those are just our test..

By the way, I do not join the marching.. As I do not think the marching is in the Islamic practice. But I pray may Allah swt reward the marchers with hidayah..smilies/smiley.gif
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written by renoir, March 10, 2009 16:02:59
>The Prophet did not want anything other than the Quran]]

Admiral Tojo, one of your most loyal supporters, has consistently called for the exclusive dependence on the Quran. I think that might be enough at the individual level. For governing an Islamic state, however, the Hadiths are reflective of the use of past cases in modern law courts - they could serve as a guide to the applications of Quranic precepts. Naturally, as products of human thought, they might not be always correct, just our modern secular courts have often turned out grievously erroneous verdicts.

>Omar could not sleep and was tossing and turning in his bed. He was feeling guilty because he had written down what the Prophet had said and he knew that was wrong. He got up and burned what he had written and only after that could he sleep soundly]]

Sad to say, I know of very few Christians who're that conscientious today - we've had TV evangelists who called for the assassination of President Chavez without batting an eyelid. Asked by Lesley Stahl about the half million Iraqi children who died in the AngloAmerican-inspired sanctions, Madeline Albright answered "we think the price is worth it." Neo-con Ann Coulter even wrote about invading Islamic countries, convert the Muslims, and kill the rest who wouldn't (convert). And I've never read about Pat Buchanan or Albright or Coulter saying they lost any sleep over what they said or had written about.

>Muslims need to go back to the drawing board and try to ‘rediscover’ Islam....And Muslims would be doing the Prophet a great service by first understanding Islam so that they can then make the non-Muslims also understand Islam.]]

Non-Muslims too need to understand their own religions better, and secularists need to reflect on their own understanding of secularism beyond what they read online (peer reviewed books and journals are, generally, the most reliable sources). When we talk of the gap between the Quran (which we know little about) and the hadiths, we might also want to know about the discrepancy between our beliefs and our actions. Jesus called us to love our enemies, but more often than not we've exhibited more hatred than anything else. Buddhist teaching emphasized non-attachment, yet all too often we can't seem to live without that new laptop or condo or car or Anne Hathaway. Secularists in particular should also realize that most "secular" Western states are grounded on Judeo-Christian principles and that, no matter how great the separation between church and state, ideas of good and bad are often derived from religious or quasi-religious sources.

>He only spoke about the weak implementation of teaching English for science and maths. Actually, we have a weak education system, full stop.]]

Very true. No need to say further.

>But to treat students as if they were children would mean they would grow up to become children.]]

Heck, the BM bums even treat adults as children (partly a feudalistic legacy, I think).

>On MCA’s challenge to DAP: DAP has said time and again that it is opposed to the Islamic State. Why keep harping on the issue? How many times does DAP have to repeat it is opposed to the Islamic State?]]

Just ignore the MCA - they're just intellectual bankupts. That's a factual statement, not an epithet.

LChuah

P/S: Singam - good points. I'd written before on the role of so-called rote learning and how Western educators have modified their once-vaunted "creative" pedagogy.
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written by anon, March 10, 2009 16:21:23
All this kampong talk on why Math and Science should be aught in English is a product of ignorance. If these Malays think(?) then they will know that only those Malays who have a decent grasp of the English Language are the ones who are making a lot of $$$ and are holding top posts with ease.

To change would be regressing. Strangely though, I have met a lot of kampong ( I mean a real kampong ) folks who know that English is important - using it to teach Math, Science and in general. These are genuine kampong people who know the importance of the English Language.

If some morons want Math and Science to taught in BM, heck, I will be happily laughing all the way to the bank, giving tuition classes to many. This is what's happening in smaller townships. A lot are making easy money teaching English language - even some who are not qualified to teach English!

During my time, English was the medium of instruction and my Malay friends are all in high places like the ministers now. All it takes is a little work and the average Malay gets pushed to the top - because he speaks a sprinkling of English.

Let me tell you this - it is not the genuine kampong people who want the change but to me it is some selfish morons who are trying to gain popular votes.

Imagine going to a small kampong and seeing more than a hundred students signing up for English tuition - paying fees for their children to learn English. These are not wealthy people. They are the poor Malays who are educated enough to know the importance of the English Language. Do not refute me - I was teaching them English Language - but I accepted a minimal fee unlike other unqualified teachers who were exploiting these poor students.

I charged RM20 (a month) per student while others charged RM150 - and yet they had their share of students. When I went there, some teachers who were teaching English were intimidated and tried hard to get me out of that place. I saw what they were teaching - bad English. The corrections done by them were wrong. So I was a threat as they knew that I saw their mistakes. I was asked to teach them but they never turned up.

So go ahead and teach Math and Science in BM - I will this time up my fee and have a great time teaching the language. I also gave private tuition and these people paid RM150 a month .
Kafirs like me will benefit.

But this kafir somehow finds it difficult to exploit the kampong folks. Pity.

Yes we have a weak education system as Pete said. And that says it all.

Cheers.


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written by gycgocnt, March 10, 2009 16:56:39
Make stand on Islamic state, MCA Youth tells DAP

Yes, MCA is a party betraying Chinese in this country. If anyone shout out “MCA CELAKA” I will give him/her a big applause! Nowadays MCA like to challenge DAP to make a stand on Hudud or Qisa Law, it is a trap to cheat Chinese confidence in MCA. I, as a Chinese, have not recognized MCA is Malayan Chinese Association. In deed, it is Mahathir Chinese Association long time ago!

Wee Ka Siong is just a copy cat in this situation, he copied from UMNO. Whenever there is election or by-election coming soon, UMNO will propagate they will be not applying Hudud/Qisa law for Chinese, and make PAS look bad by inform Chinese won’t be enjoying their Bak Kut Teh and Alcohol in the future if they vote for PAS. Whenever the ruling coalition losing confidence of the Rakyat, UMNO and MCA will do this, by making PAS a bad guy, they have forgotten what is the constitutional stated down as the Islam is the official belief in this country. They ignore what constitution provided by our late leader and instead of judging Islam is a bad belief for Rakyat! (They make PAS a bad guy means they have not confidence in the official religion)

Islam is not my religion but I have confidence in Islam belief, as least Islam pursue for moderation, forgiveness, family orientated! This is something Chinese lack of no matter they earn a lot of money! The ruling coalition should not use Islam as a political tools (By underrate Hudud/ Qisa make Pas look bad and swear on Quran for denying any wrong doing!)

In this case, I have a simple comment for UMNO and MCA
For UMNO: Don’t use Islam as a treat in order to get Chinese vote, we know you even use Allah as a political tools!
For MCA: Don’t attack on Islam Hudud/ Qisa Law proposed by PAS, this will show you are not respecting other’s religion.
For Ruling Coalition: Don’t try to use racial tension, religion differences to destroy our national unity. We are thinking out of box, Rakyat will not fool by you in the future even though you have fooled us by this “Frightening Strategies” for the past 50 years.

From: Gan Yee Chin
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written by bananachinese, March 10, 2009 18:44:07
Sigh...., RPK Pete sir,

How do we educate people like DezMalaysia?

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written by lynn, March 10, 2009 19:03:42
To me, Islamic state, Hudud law, etc. these are "the tools of trade" of bn politicians to "frighten" the nons. Ain't gonna work as well as before.... same old, same old, tired.

The most important point RPK made is this one:-

"""" On the second news item ........... Actually, we have a weak education system, full stop.

When we stifled the education system by banning students from thinking that was when our education system started going downhill. ........................We even have laws that make it a crime for students to get involved in politics.

Students must be allowed to think. They must be allowed to dissent if they wish to. Only through activism will students develop. Telling students what they can and cannot think does not help them develop.................................... """"

Knowledge is POWER; young people who don't read enough, have no substance, depth or character - it's the education system again!!! If one spoke to a teen from USA, compare his response to our local teen of the same age, you will find the former articulate, clear-minded, brimming with ideas & self-confident; the latter would be fumbling with limited vocab, irrelevancy, poor pronunciation hesitant or he may shrug off your question!

When a person doesn't read, doesn't think abt what he read, doesn't analyse, doesn't engage in discussion or exchange of opinions, chances are, he wasn't going to ask questions at all; or he doesn't know what pertinent questions to ask. Usually, it stopped there - no (further) questions.
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written by Rhan, March 10, 2009 19:03:56
Of course all the kampong folk know the important of English. However only some selfish English speaking class from urban try to make us believe that we could improve our English through learning of science and mathematics in English. With this policy, not only the English speaking class can now provide English tuition to the kampong folk, on top of that they could also provide science and mathematics tuition in English to make more and more dollars.

No wonder Mao ZeDong asks the peasants to kick the ass of intellectual, the Kampong folk here should do the same and kick the big head of this no brain urban class intellectual.
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written by tan_eng, March 10, 2009 19:25:33
Hi Guys,

Interesting piece by Anti Jihadist as well as yours. :-P

I am sure people like RPK (A Liberal Muslim), A Liberal Buddhist, A Liberal Hindu, A Liberal Christian would be able to pick up the right stuff and neglect the wrong teachings in Islam,Buddhism, Hinduism or Christianity.

I know i did that with my religion long time ago. We always seems to find the right stuff to say (justify) our believes. smilies/grin.gif . People like us are antagonists. We have to right all the time. smilies/grin.gif . Can't blame us because we are right most of the time anyway. smilies/grin.gif.

I think if you have to believe in a religion then being a liberal Muslim/Buddhist/Hindu/Christian would be a way forward. There are so many people who needs religion to survive or to place their hope on. I think it is humans nature to believe in HOPE. For us,human, the HOPE seems to come in the form of religion.

As for me, i am happy without any religion. I believe in GOD and that's it. No Religion to mud my thought. Humanity is the way forward. Every human is my blood.

Religion is CULT.

Malaysian Fighting For Malaysia.

P.S : RPK i can show you some verses in Quran/Bible/Hindu's Holy Book that the "Anti Jihadist" can pick on. It doesn't have to be the Hadith.

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written by singam, March 10, 2009 19:38:40
Densemy, my comment was partly tongue-in-cheek, seeing as how Pete has to recite and repeat and, sometimes whack, to educate MT readers. :-)

Having said that, I want to ask, how did China and India manage to accomplish such marvelous discoveries and inventions if the traditional method of teaching was so defective?

You can say that India and China have fewer patents and Nobel Prizes... but which students do you see dominating the education system in the US? Which countries provide top employees in technology are quickly catching up with technical development?

BTW, statistics will show that 2nd and 3rd generation Asian students underperform in comparison with the 1st generation ones. Food for thought, eh?
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written by lynn, March 10, 2009 20:00:09
""""On MCA’s challenge to DAP: DAP has said time and again that it is opposed to the Islamic State. Why keep harping on the issue? """"

That's all MCA is useful for - picking on DAP, like one's picking on one's nose.

I think many ppl have repeated countless times to MCA incl. abusive language. Again, I repeat to Wee ka siong, why don't you just fcuk off permanently?
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written by renoir, March 10, 2009 20:48:02
< statistics will show that 2nd and 3rd generation Asian students underperform in comparison with the 1st generation ones. Food for thought, eh? ]]

Yeah, though it's partly cultural as well. New immigrants tend to be better motivated in achieving the American Dream, and whether directly or indirectly, this drive would likely rub off on the children as well. By the 2nd or 3rd generation the urge to achieve eases and performances began to simulate the natives. Still, some of us were already westernized when we went there, yet our children were well above average. I remember several decades ago how two Asian kids were deemed too advanced for their grade one class (e.g. they already knew long division!) and were sent off to play with computers during maths lessons. One was my kid, who scored only one B plus in his entire high school life - all other subjects were As. AND unlike most other Asians he played American football, as well as winning medals in other athletic events. Now if it's not about burning the midnight oil, what are the other possible reasons?

Besides India and China, another outstanding immigrant group during the last few decades were the Iranians and Palestinians. These were matched only by that perennial superachievers - the Jews.

LChuah
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written by renoir, March 10, 2009 21:05:53
I wrote:
>One was my kid]]

The other was an Indian boy.

Rhan wrote:
>However only some selfish English speaking class from urban try to make us believe that we could improve our English through learning of science and mathematics in English]]

Yup. Problem is, most commentators never had a single day's experience as a school or college teacher. Language mastery involves so many aspects that it's silly to think quantitative subjects like maths and science could be the answer. As I said before, the best way to learn English is simply through more and better taught English lessons, just as the best way to study mankind is, as Pope says, man himself (this is related to the principle of specificity so loved by physical educationists).

LChuah
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written by renoir, March 10, 2009 21:16:16
I wrote:
>Besides India and China, another outstanding immigrant group during the last few decades were the Iranians and Palestinians]]

Should be:
Besides India and China, OTHER outstanding immigrant groupS during the last few decades were the Iranians and Palestinians]]

Forgot to mention about educational journals - scour those which discussed teaching elementary school kids and they will show how they learn best in their mother tongue. After the first few years of school - perhaps by middle school - they would be ready to learn their maths and science in English. But generally speaking, more and better taught English classes, right from an early age, is imperative if we really want kids to do well in this subject.
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written by Old Man, March 10, 2009 22:02:42
Go back to the System of Education during the 1960's and good things will happen naturally! smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif
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written by A MI, March 10, 2009 23:27:06
Dear YM RPK
I enjoy reading your articles but seriously are you just thinking aloud? Cos nothing you say is going to change the way the guardians of the religion here take not. This illness is not peculiar only to Malaysian Muslims. It is every where.

Ever wondered why all these learned ulamaks have not breathed a wrod? Surely there are some among them who have come across the very pieces of information that you have discussed above. It is the fear of being branded blasphemous that keep these people from saying anything.
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written by LILIN, March 11, 2009 08:10:32
Kazi Mahmood says education for Malays is an 'Area 51" thing...where non-Malay bashing is more important than anything else. It is race based and will surely not attain a national standard. In a few areas, race based schools have even overtaken Government schools in Malaysia!
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written by Rozlan, March 11, 2009 09:35:14
If you really want to honour the Prophet, then the best way would be to do so by following his teachings. And what, you may ask, did the Prophet teach us?


Yesss..What did The Prophet taught us? Many things,one of it is all muslims are one and colorless.
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written by asguard, March 11, 2009 09:35:59
MCA... is totally lost of ideas... it time they faded away!
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written by teo siew chin, March 11, 2009 10:18:29
My dear Renoir

Let it be told that reading your comments is and (a) an English lesson in itself.
And a (b) history lesson.
And a (c) lesson in social sciences.
And (d) others.
TQ much! smilies/grin.gif
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written by teo siew chin, March 11, 2009 10:25:15
And Renoir, YOU better be teaching English as of this moment and not waste those talents of yours!
Whip em if you must those celaka students if they dont come up to mark - i probably would have turned out better if i'd been whacked once in a while celaka!! smilies/cheesy.gif
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written by antiilluminati, March 11, 2009 12:03:31
Malay-the race and Islam the sacred religion has been abused and hijacked by UMNO warlords. Those people are actually Satan in disguise !.



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written by tan_eng, March 11, 2009 12:09:28
Hi Guys,

I almost cried listening to OBAMA's speech on his plan to reform the education system in America. He understood something most of Malaysians failed to see.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/29615027#29615027

Here , we have a leader who is not afraid to defy the status quot for the betterment of our future generation but in Malaysia we are busy politicking with our sons and daughters future.

We need Malaysians for this cause not Racial Bigots. Thats why we as Malaysians need to rise up to these challenges and defy racist in our Land.

Malaysian Fighthing For Malaysian.
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written by densemy, March 11, 2009 12:13:06
Singam... I'm not all that sure that China and India do retain the learn-by-rote educations methods which are so popular in Malaysia. But, i'll stand corrected on that one

However, I am sure that Malaysian C's n I's are a wonderful strong hold of the values china and india of 100 yrs ago. I dont know about India but Malaysian chinese are now more chinese than the chinese

I think you will find that "such marvelous discoveries and inventions if the traditional method of teaching was so defective?" were happening a LOOONG time ago. A time when science was at a very simplistic level cf with today. As you acknowledge ... I dont see too many example of innovation happening in C n I these days. That is unless you call using melamine as a source of protein an innovation.

If you want a simple test of a country's innovative skills, take a look at their artists

The reason you see C n I students dominating the education systems in the west is twofold: the obsession of asian parents about the achievements of their children .. thus they force them to work work work. Secondly, the fact that ANY intelligent student will flourish in an environment where analysis, and creativity is fostered. Your observation on the performance of later generations of Asians in America supports my first point

I look at my own children ... not one hour's tuition in their academic life... no homework until they were 11 yrs old... no exams until they were 15 yrs old. They were good average students who both graduated from Uni #64... Got good jobs and now in their mid 30's are well paid employees with considerable responsibility

I look at the youth of Malaysia ... and I weep for them

They have been officially fusked

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written by Surrhead, March 11, 2009 12:41:03
he shall be whacked all the way back to Yemen, Abu Hurairah’s country of origin as well as that of our Malaysian Minister, Syed Hamid Albar.

Pete,
Can't have a good night sleep without digging ALL BLUR's @&$#??? anyway, great point of view
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written by anon, March 11, 2009 12:54:58
Rhan, you are right. Believe me, I was teaching in one small kampong and I know a lot of the people there and what their needs are. A lot of them want their children to learn the English language. Heck, more than 100 students signed up and I was teaching them. These people told me personally that they wanted their kids to learn English and to be fluent ( in the long run ) in the language.

That would help them in Math and Science too. They have some volunteers teaching them Math and Science in English - I have heard them teach ... they teach the subjects in BM! They are supposed to be teaching them in English. They were paid to do so. Grumbling about how little pay they get.

If the government really wants, please contact me and I shall provide details - of English teachers who are not qualified to teach the language - that foes for Math and Science too.

And to those who disagree with me, do so by all means but it would be proper to state your reasons.

The tuition teachers who teach Math and Science in that small place also teach them the subjects in BM. So where are the students who genuinely wish to better their English, Math and Science heading?

BN, send someone fast and you will see what I mean.
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written by SL Chan, March 11, 2009 14:52:48
think this idiot kahsiong should shut the fxxxup!!! why not ask your master wether this is an islamic states or not????
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written by Rhan, March 11, 2009 15:05:58
The level of innovative skill has a lot to do with environment, natural resources, culture, internal and external market, national policy and strategy and etc. Language may not be one of the prime factors. US and UK are both using English, but relatively speaking, we would tell UK is being innovative LOOOOONG time ago right? Hong Kong and Singapore student are both very good in mathematics and science in academic sense, but I don’t think their innovative skill is as good at those Taiwanese, reason being that this two island stress more on financial development rather than manufacturing base due to geographical location. Another example is the founder of Alibaba, it is the so-called world factory that provide him the opportunity to initiate such a b2b website, not solely creativity and innovative.

From a human right point of view, I think the Malay have a right to choose what language they prefer. Hence, to those who insist learning of science and mathematics in English, I too support your call. However, please combine your force and push the government to re-open the English school. I suppose UMNO is now more willing to succumb to your demand at this point of time. It is not a shame to give your vote back to UMNO and label Mahathir as one great and visionary leader.

This is the best thing happen in a bi-party system. No?
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written by renoir, March 11, 2009 15:42:50
Dear Teo: Had been an English teacher one way or another since the 60s. Education was my life's focus but inevitably one gets into other areas as well. Too clumsy physically to teach little kids today and too much of a hassle to teach local college kids (though I tried). Besides, as Hinduism teaches, one should spend more time on spiritual matters during old age.

Melanine as a source of protein is a Western-derived concept - it was used in small acceptable quantities in high protein milk. Not long ago Nestle milk was also found to have exceeded limits (according to Hongkong standards). It has been corrected since. Industrial pollution and product contamination is almost inevitable in any country that aims to "progress" at breakneck speed, especially when the inane idea of "black cat, white cat" doesn't matter (or the even more stupid slogan "to get rich is glorious"). What's inexcusable is the DELIBERATE use of poisonous substances, such as Alar in American apples during the early 80s, or cancer-causing depleted uranium in weapons that had affected thousands of innocent Iraqis and American troops as well. Evidently, the experience of Agent Orange causing widespread deformities in Vietnam hasn't taught the American militarists any lesson yet.

LChuah
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written by born2reign, March 11, 2009 17:24:55
Is the state responsible for your investment returns? Should we allow one person to decide the state of my returns or my investment portfolio? No, I make the decision myself after researching many different financial instruments.

Hence should the state be responsible for my children's education returns? They should not, because God gave the children to us, the parents, not to UMNO or MCA or the Education Minister of the day. The govt has no right to choose the subjects, language, the (incompetent) teachers and force them upon my children.

Therefore make Malaysia tax-free for all rakyat since it is an oil producing country, Petronas can pay for the royalties and MPs lavish lifestyles.

I WILL CHOOSE THE BEST EDUCATION SYSTEM FOR MY CHILDREN.
I will send them to Singapore or Europe or download home school materials from internet,
Find a tutor for my kids
Give them the moral studies that is actually morally right

I terminate the Education Ministry as my kids educator, due to gross negligence and incompetence and breach of trust, hence the Ministry must return all education fees (personal income taxes) owed to me and my spouse.


If one's salary is RM50,000 pa, then RM7,500 (15%) refund should be sfficient for one's children's tuition fees.
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written by singam, March 12, 2009 08:02:50
I usually confine myself to succinct observations of what has been said in the original article or on comments thereof. My economy of words coupled with my ofttimes offbeat viewpoints often result in the primary thrust of my observation being missed or misunderstood. I also have a rule-of-thumb of not taking a difference of opinion beyond two steps. At that point, it is better to disagree and leave things there. Further discussion tends to quickly deteriorate.

Be that as it may, densemy appearing to have taken exception to some of my ideas, his responses deserve fair comment.

But my comment is too long so I have to break it up into two responses. :-(

I wrote on March 10, 2009 at 14:24:12

"My observation of traditional Chinese and Indian education techniques is that the best way to effectively educate young children is to force them to repeat and recite. Repetition and recitation, punctuated by the occasional whack on the back or backside (depending on whether they are standing or sitting).

Educators trained in western education methodology may decry these as crude and barbaric methods, but they have worked. Especially for those chronically disinterested in education.

Once the children grow old enough to be able think for themselves, they are expected to study on their own. No spoonfeeding and no restrictions. They are allowed the freedom to develop to their full potential. Or fall by the wayside, as the case may be.

I think there is something to be said for traditional methods.
"


As I explained later, this was an oblique swipe at what Pete has resorted to doing in trying to educate MT readers. No offense was intended and, I hope, none was taken.


densemy's response on March 10, 2009 at 14:47:27 is given below in italics. I have inserted further comments in context.

"Singam... wonderful idea if you want to produce unimaginative technocrats

Cos that's all you will get
"

We are all entitled to our opinions.

"Wheras muslims suppress their children's creative, imaginative and thinking skills through religious indoctrination and suppression of questioning and inquiry"

I don't know where this is coming from. It has nothing to do with what I wrote. Please don't entangle me in a seditious exchange.

"The chinese and indians do it within the family with their obsession with absolute discipline, repression and over protectionism

All the schools do is to continue in the same mode because the students who come to the schools have already had their curiosity, creativity, imagination, innovation and the ability to think analytically destroyed
"

Again, we are entitled to our opinions. For whatever reason, densemy elected to ignore my 3rd paragraph.

"Children need to be stimulated and inspired and treated as individuals if you ever want Malaysia to be anything but a nation of mindless zombies"

Fair enough.
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written by singam, March 12, 2009 08:04:21
Here is Part II...

I responded on March 10, 2009 at 19:38:40

"Densemy, my comment was partly tongue-in-cheek, seeing as how Pete has to recite and repeat and, sometimes whack, to educate MT readers. :-)

Having said that, I want to ask, how did China and India manage to accomplish such marvelous discoveries and inventions if the traditional method of teaching was so defective?

You can say that India and China have fewer patents and Nobel Prizes... but which students do you see dominating the education system in the US? Which countries provide top employees in technology are quickly catching up with technical development?

BTW, statistics will show that 2nd and 3rd generation Asian students underperform in comparison with the 1st generation ones. Food for thought, eh?
"

I explained the primary thrust of my comment. Partly tongue-in-cheek but also somewhat serious. Sometimes it seems that you have to hit some people on the head with a shoe to get a point across. Now that's a metaphor so I hope no one comes back about how insulting it is to be hit on the head with a shoe!!

I also took the opportunity to point out that, despite rote-learning techniques that would be called barbaric today, India and China managed to produce sufficient creativity make some amazing discoveries and invent some wonderful stuff. And that this intense approach to learning was successful in the western climate as well.

So one should not dismiss rote-learning as capable of producing only mindless zombies.

This brought us to densemy's rebuttal on March 11, 2009 at 12:13:06

"Singam... I'm not all that sure that China and India do retain the learn-by-rote educations methods which are so popular in Malaysia. But, i'll stand corrected on that one"

Good. Agree to disagree or whatever.

"However, I am sure that Malaysian C's n I's are a wonderful strong hold of the values china and india of 100 yrs ago. I dont know about India but Malaysian chinese are now more chinese than the chinese"

Actually I was not addressing the Malaysian vernacular schools, but fair enough. Let's look at them.

Malaysian Tamil schools are a poor reflection of the Indian education system. Poorly funded, poorly equipped, poorly staffed, poorly motivated... they struggle to produce students who even have what it takes to continue with secondary education. Those problems are not a consequence of rote-learning, so let us leave them for another discussion.

Malaysian Chinese schools used to produce excellent students, well disciplined but hardly lacking in creative skills and motivation. Many of our captains of industry and commerce are products of the rote-learning oriented Chinese education system. If you believe creative skills are not a prerequisite for corporate success, maybe a course on Corporate Management 101 is in order.

How are the Chinese schools faring today? I have no personal experience but I have heard laments about the decline in discipline and real thinking skills. This may or may not have any relation to a softening of rote-learning, but I suspect the former.

to be continued...
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written by singam, March 12, 2009 08:04:55
...and this is Part III

"I think you will find that "such marvelous discoveries and inventions if the traditional method of teaching was so defective?" were happening a LOOONG time ago. A time when science was at a very simplistic level cf with today. As you acknowledge ... I dont see too many example of innovation happening in C n I these days. That is unless you call using melamine as a source of protein an innovation."

First of all, please don't be so quick to dismiss the discoveries of ancient times when science was at a "simplistic level". Discovering the unknown is always a marvellous achievement. Today's "advanced science" is built upon yesterday's "simplistic science". You may look at an apple falling and say, "Ya lor, commensense what! Gravity is pulling it". But for Newton to grasp the significance of that simple observation and then take it to groundshaking Laws of Motion was no trivial achievement. Discovering zero was as great a leap of comprehension as conceptualising the curved space of General Relativity.

By the way, Newton and Einstein were also products of rote-learning.

I hope the melamine remark is not a reflection of the level of densemy's intellectual argument.

Unfortunately, their civilisations having peaked, China and India fell into slumber, were colonised and remained out of circulation while the Western countries were advancing their sciences. But both countries are quick to catch up, India more in software, China more in hardware.

"If you want a simple test of a country's innovative skills, take a look at their artists"

densemy, tell me you're kidding!!

"The reason you see C n I students dominating the education systems in the west is twofold: the obsession of asian parents about the achievements of their children .. thus they force them to work work work. Secondly, the fact that ANY intelligent student will flourish in an environment where analysis, and creativity is fostered. Your observation on the performance of later generations of Asians in America supports my first point"

For a people used to discipline and rote-learning, it is nothing but a routine. For a people more confortable with a laid-back approach, it would look like an obssession. I assume it is clear that the laid-back approach can look like laziness or lack of motivation. Labels are a dangerous thing.

My observation that later generation Asian children underperform supports the point that intelligent students flourish in the western educational environment? Now I am confused!

"I look at my own children ... not one hour's tuition in their academic life... no homework until they were 11 yrs old... no exams until they were 15 yrs old. They were good average students who both graduated from Uni #64... Got good jobs and now in their mid 30's are well paid employees with considerable responsibility"

Well done, I say!

"I look at the youth of Malaysia ... and I weep for them"

So do I, but what has that got to do with what I wrote?

Oh, this is no longer in response to what I wrote! OK, I geddit.

"They have been officially fusked"

Whatever that means. It's official now? No one told me.

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written by teo siew chin, March 12, 2009 09:23:49
Dear Renoir - you are not allowed to use age as an excuse same as the young not allowed to use youth! smilies/wink.gif

Anyways, we now have YM RPK, Renoir & Singam - MT's Three Musketeers to educate us...
woooo hooooo! (Admiral Tojo - the 4th? smilies/grin.gif)

peace.love.food.
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written by densemy, March 12, 2009 11:47:52
Singam... thanks for your detailed analysis of my comments

RPK once wrote an article bemoaning how Malaysians too often failed to see the forest for the trees

Welcome to Treesville
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written by Fauzi, March 12, 2009 12:33:08
Although it is not the point of RPK’s article, I’d like to share some of what I know about the things he mentioned about the hadith.

The Prophet (pbuh) did initially ban writing down his sayings. This was to ensure that the prophetic sayings were not mixed up with revelation i.e. the Qur'an.

But later, when the Qur'an has permeated the hearts of the believers, and there was no fear of mixing up the Qur'an and hadith, the Prophet (pbuh) allowed writing down hadith. This is in the hadith literature also. This is an example of as "nasakh" or abrogation.

Other examples of abrogation is the banning of visiting graves, which was later lifted; and prohibition of alcohol, where earlier it was merely discouraged.

Another thing we need to be aware is that the Prophet (pbuh) never actually banned “hadith” (i.e. the transmission of his sayings to other people). In fact he commanded his companions to tell those who were not present. The initial ban was only with regards to writing.

This cannot be a justification of abandoning hadith altogether. In the article, RPK recognized that using the hadith that the Prophet allegedly banned hadith to justify not accepting hadith is actually a circular, and thus a false, argument.

Even the existence of false hadith cannot be a justification of abandoning hadith. After all, we only know of which hadith were false because of the meticulous sifting of the hadith by the early hadith scholars. By extension, we also know which ones were true and applicable.

On another note, I agree with RPK when he says Muslims now act in a manner which gives a poor image of Islam. Historically Muslims have never been afraid of debate. The theological debates of the Abbasid and Muslim Spain are proof of that. The problem now is that Muslims in many places are so cut off from their rich intellectual tradition, that the knee-jerk reaction is to be defensive and just reject criticism.

But when talking about the Prophet (pbuh), non-muslims must remember that our utter devotion, respect and love of the Prophet (pbuh) is part of the religion. We believe that he is the Best of Creation, the Beloved of God, and our Intercessor on the Day of Judgment. We give blessings to him a minimum of 9 times a day during the 5 daily prayers. We are commanded to love him - but it is easy to love him because we know all the details of his character and even physical description - preserved faithfully in the hadith. So naturally Muslims are offended when someone slanders him.

And God knows best.
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