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The hypocrisy in man PDF Print
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Thursday, 25 December 2008 18:25

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So, while I might support Hudud in principle, I do not support it as the law of the land. And I do not support it because I can’t support what two-thirds of Parliament does not support.

NO HOLDS BARRED

Raja Petra Kamarudin

Christmas is upon us, yet again. Another Christmas, another year gone, another year nearer to our graves. Tomorrow is Boxing Day, also remembered as Tsunami Day, the day when people were drowned in their sleep and swept out to sea into their watery graves.

How quickly joy turns to sorrow. One day we are elated with festivity and drowning in food and wine.  The next we are sedated with reality and drowning in the Indian Ocean. I am now in Penang. I arrived yesterday with an entourage of six families, about 25 souls or so in all. I am now in the land where it all happened almost a memory ago.

The Boxing Day Tsunami, some say, is God’s punishment. It is God punishing mankind for the wrongs it has done. If that was really what God intended then God did not do a good job. Those who deserve punishment certainly did not get punished. Those who were punished were not deserving of that fate. Are we talking about my God, one of compassion and justice, or are we talking about your God, one with a sick sense of humour and misguided sense of justice?

To you your God and to me mine, the religionists say. But then are we not all God’s children and the creation of that same, one God? How can you, therefore, have your God and me, mine? Your God and mine are one and the same. To believe we have separate Gods means we believe there is more than one God. And the doctrine of most religions says there is but one God, in particular that of the Abrahamic faiths.

And are we so different? Did not Muhammad learn from the Christians and much of Islam ‘adopted’ from Christianity? Does not the Ka’bah also appear in the same name and form in the land of the Zoroastrians in the far reaches of Persia? Did not Jesus disappear from the ages of 12 to 30 when he sought tuition from Buddhists, as many now believe? Did not John the Baptist practice what was practiced by the Hindus in India of his time? But what can we really believe? Do we really know what was fact and fiction thousands of years ago? What we do know is what we have been told to believe. And what we are told to believe is what they want us to believe. And what they want us to believe is what suits the political agenda of those who walk in the corridors of power.

John roamed the land with just the clothes on his back to preach the word of God. And he brought no rations save those he accepted as alms along the way. Was John a Jew, Christian or Buddhist? We believe what we want to believe as long as it suits those who walk in the corridors of power. And to believe otherwise will not incur the wrath of God but the wrath of those who need us to believe what we are told to believe for purposes of political expediency.

Such is religion. And such is politics. And religion is not about God. It is about politics. And Cain killed Abel not for God but for politics. The good died that day, thousands of years ago. And we are descendants of the bad that lived, not the good that died.

So, can mankind be good when we are children of bad? How can the fruit of a poisonous tree be nothing but poisonous? If Cain had survived and society had convicted Abel and sentenced him to death for attempted murder, then we would probably be good because then we would be children of Cain, not Abel.

But would children of good also be good? And would children of bad also be bad? Can those whose mothers and fathers who are both nuclear scientists be equally brilliant? Or is there no possibility the son could be born mentally retarded? How many children of Umno diehards join the opposition, to be cursed and disowned by their fathers? And can there not be two brothers on opposite sides of the political fence? Shahrir and Khalid, the two sons of Samad, are testimony that there can. But which of Samad’s sons is Cain and which is Abel? It all depends on whether you walk in the corridors of power. Cain can be Abel and Abel, Cain, if he you judge walks with you and not against you.

Hudud is the current controversy, the latest Tsunami sweeping this land. But what is the issue? Is it about religion or it is merely politics? The hand is quicker than the eye. And what we see is what our brain tells us to see. We see what the hand waves in front of us. Magic is not magic. Magic is sleight of hand.

And the politicians are playing silap mata. It is a cheap show to indulge our fantasies. Is it not fantasy that Hudud will be implemented in Malaysia? How can the minority move the majority? The Federal Constitution does not provide for it. Hudud is not about religion. It is about the law of the land. Religion may be a state matter. But Hudud is not about religion. It is about the law of the land. And the states do not have authority over the laws of the land. Hudud can only become law when Parliament says so. And you need 66.666% of Parliament to say so. PAS owns only 23 seats.  And 23 seats in Parliament is not 66.666% of 222. So Hudud can never be the law of the land.

The non-Muslim coalition partners of Barisan Nasional oppose Hudud. This, they have said so. Umno from Kelantan supports Hudud. This, they have said so. The non-Muslim partners of the opposition coalition oppose Hudud. This, they have said so. PAS, the propagator of Hudud, is split on the issue. This may have a bearing on the Kuala Terengganu by-election on 17 January 2009.

In the meantime the people are confused. Who supports what and who opposes? It is no longer that easy to tell. But it is meant that way. This is what politics is all about. And Hudud is about politics, not about religion. Politics is about exploitation and deception. Politics, not prostitution, is the oldest profession in the world. But, while prostitutes are not politicians, politicians are certainly prostitutes. And they will prostitute themselves if need be. And most times it needs be that they prostitute themselves.

PAS wants to secure the Malay votes in Kuala Terengganu. Umno wants to swing the Chinese votes. So, with the by-election looming over the horizon, Hudud is played to the hilt. Islam is the issue of the day. Hudud is the bad boy of Islam. And there are no sacred cows in politics. All is fair in love and war. So let us play up the Hudud issue for the benefit of winning votes.

A critical analysis of Hudud could lay the matter to rest. Those opposed could become converted if the real issue is explained. But then this will end the confusion. And the objective is not to end the confusion. The game plan is exploitation and deception. That is how ‘good’ politics is played. And there is only one type of politics, the type that wins.

I do not want to explain Hudud. I am not even a Hudud apologist. I can do that if you want me to. It is so crystal clear and extremely simple that it makes me laugh. How can Hudud be an issue? Hudud can be good and can be bad depending on application.  So can the Internal Security Act if you really want to get analytical. Hudud is not about punishment. It is about looking into circumstances. Hudud explores what went wrong and how to put it right. It is not about imposing on society and causing tears to be shed.

Thieves must not be automatically punished under Hudud. The circumstances need to first be explored. Under common law thieves must not escape punishment. The circumstances do not matter. If a thief is a thief because of circumstances then the thief is not a thief and society must instead be punished, as far as Hudud is concerned. Society will be ordered to adopt the thief. The thief will become the ward of the state. And the thief can now leave his life and crime and enter into a life of adoption.

Such is the beauty of Hudud. A thief is not a thief. A thief becomes our adopted child. And if, again, he needs to steal because we have failed him, then we receive punishment instead. The thief loses no limb. But do people understand this? They do not because they are meant to not understand. This is about politics. And politicians are prostitutes. They exploit us and deceive us. And that is a mark of a good politician.

Murder is murder. Death is punished by death. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. But that is common law. That is not Hudud. In Hudud the question would be: why did you kill? Circumstantial evidence is not allowed under Hudud. Under common law you hang because of the smoking gun. Never mind they can’t prove that you killed. As long as the gun is yours you will die even if you did not pull the trigger. And did not Mokhtar Hashim get sentenced to death because of the smoking gun?

Even if you confess to murder you still do not die. The victim's family would first be asked whether they want you dead. Taking your life will not bring back the deceased. So do we want a life for a life? Two lives gone serves no purpose. The deceased's family’s welfare for the rest of its natural days takes precedence over punishment. Dead men do not put food on the table. Would another life lost, notwithstanding it is the life of a murderer, solve the economic problems of the deceased's family?

So you can ‘buy’ your life by supporting the family. It may be costly but that is the price of life. But what if you are destitute yourself? How to support your victim’s family when you can’t even support yourself? Many pay tithe or zakat. Zakat must be paid, come hell or high water. You can choose how to pay as long as it assists society. And if your millions can be spent for the benefit of mankind then you have fulfilled your duty to God and society. So a philanthropist can help 'buy back' your life for the good of the deceased's family.

So there are ways. Hudud can be humane if you want it to be. But has this been explained? Are the people aware that Hudud can improve society where common law has failed? But who cares? Who cares that Hudud can be better than what we have now? Hudud is not about religion. It is about politics. And politics is about exploitation and deception.  And that is because politicians are prostitutes. And Hudud has been prostituted for the benefit of politics. That is what Hudud is all about, political prostitution.

But I too do not support the implementation of Hudud. I support Hudud in that it can be better than what we have if properly implemented. But what is properly implemented nowadays? Even the Internal Security Act has been abused. The Internal Security Act was good in 1960. One generation later and it has become a tool to stifle dissent and freedom.

So, while I might support Hudud in principle, I do not support it as the law of the land. And I do not support it because I can’t support what two-thirds of Parliament does not support. This is not about religion. It is about democracy. Even if two-thirds of Parliament supports it I still will not support it. How can 148 members of Parliament decide on behalf of 26 million Malaysians? Never mind some people gave them their two-thirds majority in Parliament. It was only four million people that did. 22 million other Malaysians did not.

Run a referendum. 10 million Malaysians are minors. 16 million Malaysians are of voting age. Get the 16 million Malaysians to decide. And let that referendum of 75% tell us what they want. And if 12 million Malaysians, representing 75% of eligible voters, vote in favour of Hudud, then let this be the law of the land. If not, forever hold your tongue and let the matter be given a decent burial.

I have just about had it with political prostitutes.  It has come to a point I feel like campaigning for Umno in the Kuala Terengganu by-election just to send a message to PAS that they can’t keep playing this exploitation and deception game of political prostitution. Do they think I have my brains in my ass? Just because they do does not mean I do too.

Those who both support and oppose Hudud do not know one bit what Hudud is. Many years ago I wrote a ‘thesis’ on the matter, which was published in Harakah, the official party organ of PAS. No, I am no lawyer. I am not even a religious scholar. I just have a brain; a brain God gave me. And God gave us brains so that we can use it to think. But I wonder why others do not also use their brains that God gave them to think.

No, Hudud is not evil. Hudud is better than what we have now. But it can be worse if we want to make it so. And chances are the evil in man will make it worse. That is what makes the matter dicey.

Nevertheless, the issue is not whether Hudud is better or worse. It is about whether the majority of the people want it as the law of the land. That is what matters. And we do not care what 23 PAS Members of Parliament want. We do not even care what 148 Members of Parliament want, even if they represent two-thirds of Parliament. We care what 75% of 16 million Malaysians want. If 12 million Malaysians shout, “Let’s implement Hudud”, then let that happen. If not, buzz off and get out of my face before I really lose my temper, you political prostitutes.

Oh yes, and Merry Christmas everyone. Hope you are in the same mood as I am today. I want to kick ass. Don’t know what you want to do though.

Comments (288)Add Comment
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written by ahmadneil, December 25, 2008 18:33:00
Let me wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New year,2009,first before anything!
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written by ahmadneil, December 25, 2008 18:39:50
So you are grumbling about God again! Lucky that fellow is in Teheran or otherwise he will not be happy saying you insulted God on this Christmas day.
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written by ahmadneil, December 25, 2008 18:47:44
Ya lah,that's what is happening to MCA and MIC.They are prostituting themselves to satisfy umno and umno love to have these prostitutes around them.This is what we call 'inhouse prostitution'.
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written by Motherchell, December 25, 2008 18:49:55
Dear Pete,
Merry Christmas and a wonderful New Year to all. Time to celebrate for many--- taking note of many in despair in many parts of the World.-- children , brothers , sisters, wives, husbands, mothers, and older generations. They all have my wishes and prayers for peace , harmony and freedom.

Well said Pete!""To you your God and to me mine, the religionists say. But then are we not all God’s children and the creation of that same, one God? ""

Touching on the political half -- have our Ministers wives ever visited the Dafur Refugee camps than go on shopping trips abroad ??--- Why i doubt????--- because i see their Minister husbands barking about Human Rights in the UN and signing great number of declarations that Malaysia is a first world fighter against all forms of human injustices..
http://sjsandteam.*********.com/

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written by asiana888, December 25, 2008 18:59:52
Hi YM RPK. Merry Christmas! As usual ... an excellent piece.

Ya .... 100% setuju! Why POLITICIZE Hudud Laws again?? Is it PAS will ram Hudud down the throats of the majority? If so ... they are just like Talibans.

We should have a national referendum ... once and for all (at least in my life time) - so that we don't use Hudud for political mileage again.

Peace to you and all!

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written by Motherchell, December 25, 2008 19:02:21
Dear Pete,
I doubt these Laws you mention about will ever be implemented, Why?? UMnoPUTRAS and their cronies definitely cannot drive around in their Porches, Lombos, RR,and Mesaratis without limbs!! and another problem will be --who will sign their sign their cheques--- smilies/grin.gif
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written by apa jadi, December 25, 2008 19:10:14
OMG! It is only Christmas, you are already in Boxing day mood - Boxing on the hypocrite's faces (pun intended).

This time I agree 100% of what you wrote, not even 0.1% to dispute.

Yes, I think it may be a good idea to send Husam and PAS political hypocrites a message by voting them out. But, please pre-empt and make the position clear before we do that. Otherwise, the other band of hypocrites might use it as a propaganda that people have lost faith with PR. I had voted PAS 3 times in my constituency. But, I think it is about time to tell them to buck up and show their true selves.
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written by apa jadi, December 25, 2008 19:11:45
Btw, please don't let these bigots spoil your holiday mood. Relax and enjoy yourself.
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written by Hope4all, December 25, 2008 19:13:56
Merry Christmas to RPK and everyone (yes, Mansor Puteh included)...
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written by ahmadneil, December 25, 2008 19:16:23
quote...'And God gave us brains so that we can use it to think. But I wonder why others do not also use their brains that God gave them to think.'

Dear Pete,
Have you not wrote about the mad cow disease in Penang.First of all you are rare specie ,a through-bred.There are alot like you or may be better,but at present I only know one and that's RPK.You use your brain but others,as you say before,only have pea size brains or even brainless or due to in-breeding ,got brain but cannot function or rusty.That is why we have all this shout of Ketuanan Melayu Bodoh becos they are suffering from inferior complex(Kiasu).So when they open their mouth,shit start falling out.So you see,they clean with water but their mouth smells becos they talk cock.
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written by ChiangKT, December 25, 2008 19:20:55
Pete, even you I can see is getting impatient, let alone most Chinese Malaysians voters who are not as educated as you are. It's not about maths and counting the number of seats PAS can ultimately have. If everyone can have the bigger picture in mind then there would have been no issue on who is ruling the government now. But it is the uncertainly in what PAS may do, at the state level to begin with, that get people to be fearful of voting them. Quite often people vote as a matter of principle. If I do not agree in principle what this party is about, e.g. like the BNP in the UK, I just will not vote for that party. Or maybe I won't vote at all, not because I don't care, as I do care. Having said that, I think PAS is still young a party, so are their members, and I'd expect them to mature over time. And I will give them a bit of time. But the message for them is they need to stop rocking the boat and exploiting opportunities to propagate agenda (like implementing Hudud Law, which I don't know that well but thank you for your clarification) that the majority of the people in Malaysia don't want.
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written by justinlian, December 25, 2008 19:29:13
First , I would like to take this opportunity to wish everyone merry christmas and a happy new year.
Dont care too much about what law we should have but get ready to kick some asses for the by election in terengganu.
We should tell the people there what they should vote for this time.
Lets have some good news for 2009.
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written by ahmadneil, December 25, 2008 19:29:59
written by MMhunter, December 25, 2008 19:03:48

Thank you for not saying I'm not a malay.Why is my race issue so irritating to some like you.If you happen to be one of those political prostitute,then I strike the bull eye.Go on,satisfy umno to the best of your ability and service them with all the strength you have.Politician and prostitution are equally old profession and that is why they are associated with one another.
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written by educationist, December 25, 2008 19:37:51
RPK has said it many times, yet why does DAP ,MCA and the other non-Malay parties continue to fret whenever the idiots in PAS raise the Hudud law issue?
Perhaps all of them are morons as well!
So, let's see how PAS can clap with one hand!
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written by sonofmalaysia, December 25, 2008 19:45:47
RPK, way to go !!

Strip those prostitute politicians naked, flog them teruk teruk until their lips and labia broke beyond repair !!
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written by truthbespoken, December 25, 2008 19:54:39
"Hudud is the current controversy, the latest Tsunami sweeping this land. But what is the issue?"

The issue is now simply about politicians fighting politicians using religion as a tool. Hudud couldn't have turned into a controversy now if there is no oncoming by-elcetions at KT. The culprit politicians involved need to have their brains mopped and hands chopped off for stealing...stealing the good times from the people during festive seasons!
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written by Tompios, December 25, 2008 20:18:22
Qin dynasty started around 208 BC and Chinese writing characters was exist long before Jesus the Christ born. Han dynasty 1st century AD is the century where Jesus was born (for sure not in December 25). Anyone might tell me why the old Chinese writing characters are very much telling about Jesus' life? Yes, Chinese writing characters fully telling us the whole story of Genesis. "Did not Jesus disappear from the ages of 12 to 30 when he sought tuition from Buddhists, as many now believe?" If this statement true, then people hundred years before Christ born already well-informed about the coming of Jesus Christ. He is just disappear to know his prediction through Buddhist religion.

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written by Tompios, December 25, 2008 20:29:04
Tsunami disaster memory December 26, 2008. May God strengthen those families who were lost their love one in Tsunami 2004.
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written by panca, December 25, 2008 20:36:57
Those who use brain and those who don't!

Politics in Malaysia is all about using religion to mislead and confuse unsuspecting followers which they thought they(leaders) would not sway from the truth of religion for their own political ends. Yes Politics in Malaysia is about being a "better" prostitute(Is there such thing as a better prostitute?) Of course, better means one trades more, having more customers, more followers. Political parties become prostitute dens. So Rakyat, don't let this Prostitutes prostitute you into believing that religion condone such acts of deceit.

We already have toooooo much of "clogged drains and brains drained"!

"So we really need to use our brains or someone will still continue using your brains"

For many of those with clogged drains mentality, RPK certainly can show you what fluid thinking is all about!

This is what the article should make you see in yourself, what causes the blurred blurred, double visioned to rectify themselves for their brains up in their heads!

Don't lose oneself to think la!
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written by ajip, December 25, 2008 20:42:29
Dear Mr RPK, Mr Lim Kit Siang, Mr Lim Guan Eng, Mr Karpal Singh and DAP members/ supporters

while i agree with Mr RPK, why dont you guys let the Kelantanese do referendum in their own state. let us see whether they really want to implement hudud.

now, both UMNO in kelantan and PAS agree to have hudud in their state, why dont u fuys let them do referendum and if the kelanatanese agree, let them have their own law. you guys dont have to kacau daun. OK ??
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written by ajip, December 25, 2008 20:45:44
Mr RPK, can u publish your thesis which was published in Harakah?
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written by Sudahlah tu, December 25, 2008 20:52:40
Selamat menikmati keamanan semasa bersama keluarga di Hari Natal ini ...
Kita sebagai umatNya haruslah mengamalkan gaya hidup yang serba serdahana dan saling maaf bermaafan.
jangan sekali kita terjambak dalam keghairahan tamak kuasa dan hidup boros.
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written by Tompios, December 25, 2008 20:53:27
Anyway, I still believe in God dear RPK and need the love philosophical of Him. Yes, Malaysia political condition very much about religion. Our communities (Malaya) need religion opium to be called human being and it was spread crossing to the China ocean to Sabah and Sarawak.

I believe many Malaysian political parties misusing politic (the process by which groups of people make decisions) to tell the world the their religion is the best of the best in the world. Opium is Opium. Hukuman gantung sampai mati.
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written by Rainbowseahorse, December 25, 2008 20:55:04
My bro Pete,

Have a very Merry Christmas!
I am at a Christmas party right now and I just pop-in to see what's up in MT. I see even on this holiday, you are hard at work!smilies/grin.gif

I will not comment on your article just yet, maybe tomorrow. But your early opening in this article caught my eye and I couldn't resist adding something:

"...Another Christmas, another year gone, another year nearer to our graves..."

Reminded me of one of Pink Floyd's song lyric "...shorter of breath and one day closer to death..;..and then one day we find, ten years have past us by, no one told when to start, we have missed the starting gun...". Remember that song from the album “Dark Side Of The Moon”?

Well, Cheers and all the best!
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written by nana tanjung, December 25, 2008 20:55:07
RPK, the keyword is daawah. Don't politicize, but try to daawah.

PAS fault - unable to make full use of their facility and capability to put forward a plan to daawah the public as well as their peers in DAP and PKR about Hudud.

DAP's fault - jumping like what malays say, beruk kena belacan. Why must it response in such auto-reactive mode everything this topics crop up? can't they sit down and rationalize? Why are they not interested to help PR supporters to understand Hudud?

PKR- as always play safe. Nothing much to comment.
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written by DontPlayGod, December 25, 2008 21:17:02
You are in Penang? Why not give your fans in Penang a chance to meet up with you? I remembered in the 8th march Tsunami, the Police did not allow you to enter Penang and speak. But, no regrets as far as you are concerend though. The people of Penang have already made up their minds, and they have already said enough is enough to racist UMNO.
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written by binarytan, December 25, 2008 21:22:08
Merry Christmas, Happy Awal Muharram & Happy New Year to you RPK. However, hudud law has been politicized and PAS should keep in their pocket. I think non Muslim is not in favour, BN will not favour too. Possibly just a small group of PAS members like that and they could start in Kelantan first and see how they will be punished on GE13. Go ahead PAS, do it in Kelantan and show us Hudud law is the best governing law in the world.
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written by lynn, December 25, 2008 21:29:45
"""Those who deserve punishment certainly did not get punished. Those who were punished were not deserving of that fate. Are we talking about my God, one of compassion and justice, or are we talking about your God, one with a sick sense of humour and misguided sense of justice?"""

That's what I have been lamenting for decades abt 'God' & His failures. Actually, RPK, the only reason the bad get off scot-free is not because God fcuks-up all the time. It's simply because God does not exist. If there be a God, He must be perfection itself, consistent, predictable & he acts accordingly.

Since none of that ever took place, we can safely deduce there is no God. But there is the sun which rises every morning without fail. At least the sun don't preach to us any bullshit that we must have belief so that we can have paradise after death. The sun just does it job everyday and then come back the next day, boring, predictable. God is nowhere close to the sun's consistency. God, if He exists, failed mankind for thousands of years. In conclusion, I contend that to harbour a belief in God, God must prove himself worthy of my belief; he must be self-evident, like the sun.

Talking abt these prostitutes politicians, I wish we can push for laws to disallow govt to be involved in any business and to make it a serious offence to bring in religion into politics. Malaysia is so screwed-up because politicians are involved deeply in projects (corruption) and to make matters worse, Hudud is always taken out as a subject to garner support or panicked the non-Muslims. Politicians shld stick to what they are there for - to serve the rakyat. Not to dictate to us their ambitions for Hudud Laws. That is not their fcuking job. Please, can someone tell Husam Musa to read this message(s)?

I guess I am now talking to a tree or bushes. Nobody can follow this.

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written by singam, December 25, 2008 21:45:13
Huddud can only be implemented successfully in a society that is filled with the righteous who take their social responsibilities seriously. In a society filled with non-believers, half-believers and hypocrites, huddud cannot succeed in achieving its noble aims. It can only be applied to punish and prohibit.

Attempting to implement huddud in this country makes a mockery of the virtues of huddud. The question is, are the PAS leaders misguided or mischievous?
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written by singam, December 25, 2008 21:56:33
Lynn wrote "Since none of that ever took place, we can safely deduce there is no God.

This is the biggest challenge with the idea of a God Personality outside of us sitting in judgment and micro-managing events to mete out justice. If God is Omnipresent, then how can He intervene? To intervene, one has to act from a place where one is upon a place where one is not. The Intervening God cannot be Omnipresent and the Omnipresent God is not Intervening.

There are theological arguments that traverse these tricky pathways, but those are outside the scope of this topic.
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written by Goodbites, December 25, 2008 22:02:56
It is substance over form. There is a Chinese saying "things are dead, people are alive". It can be said the same about "laws" which are in itself dead and to be too dependent on it instead of universal justice, brotherhood, and love is just a dead end. Hudud laws which have been espoused by PAS are also not uniform worldwide and this applies also to other religious practices, which adds to the existing controversy. Where is "justice" if one is allowed to do one thing in one country but not in another. Here, ISA is practiced by UMNO, but PAS is against it. See what I mean! If ever there is a law that God wants us to practice and implement it is already stated very clearly in the Book. When someone asked Jesus which of the laws is the greatest:-

Mar 12:28 And one of the scribes came, ...,and asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is ... The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.


Can you see the difference?
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written by Dreamlander, December 25, 2008 22:13:40
YES, all MT readers, use the GOD-endowed brain we have to THINK constructively.
When religious scholars interpret ancient religious text centuries after such texts were first inscribed, many do not take into consideration the social norms of the time when such religious edicts were issued.
Just consider how a first century scholar will describe a 21st century lamp-post?
He would record it as an iron tree with one branch that is lighted by a fireless flame. Get the gist of the idea.
Since we are celebrating Christmas today, please read the link below as an example to substantiate RPK's claim in this article that religion and politics are intertwined:
http://kennysideshow.********.com/2008/12/christmas-ancient-holiday.html
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written by benny loh, December 25, 2008 22:20:44
So it's politicians fooling the people
http://malaysiancartoons.*****...urage.html
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written by cahaya, December 25, 2008 22:28:32
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all! In this helpful article, you wrote on the hypocrisy of men. You explained how some political prostitutes abuse democracy by trying to impose a particular religious prejudice (“let us implement Hudud”) on unsuspecting citizens. Once again, you explained why Hudud can never be the law of the land. Your explanation was clearer than last time.
RPK and friends, hope you enjoy your time in Penang! Thanks for taking time to write.
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written by cahaya, December 25, 2008 22:29:35
Insulting Christians on Christmas Day?
RPK, you have always come across as a wonderful Bangsa Malaysia. You are someone who respects Malaysians from all backgrounds, whatever their race or religion or social status. Therefore it was a disappointment to read in paragraph 5 something of an insult to Christians on one of their holy days. Jesus (or prophet Isa in Islam) is central to the celebration of Christmas. How could you suggest “disappear from the ages of 12 to 30 when he sought tuition from Buddhists”? According to the Christian scriptures, Jesus lived and worked as a carpenter in Nazareth before his public ministry began at 30. Perhaps you owe an apology to Christian readers of MT for that misworded sentence?
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written by Super Admin, December 25, 2008 22:37:16
cahaya, hmmm, after getting sent to Kamunting for insulting Islam is he now going back there for insulting Christianity?

Read the article again and that part that says "as many now believe?
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written by 98PercentPrimate, December 25, 2008 22:49:36
Merry Christmas to all who celebrate it..

I don't agree that the hudud nature of punishments should not be carved in stones.

Punishment against crimes should be relative the average level of human conscience and empathy.

Hudud sort of punishments may be effective in some societies. At the extreme, there still exists tribal punishments in the Amazon jungles and Papua New Guinea that really horrific. The Japanese Yakuza ganster practice chopping of fingers for various violation of their rules.

Imo, I think the average Malaysians have attained a certain level of conscience and empathy to find chopping of arms & legs, stoning to death and other barbaric sort of punishments quite unpalatable.

Humans must strive to find more effective punishments and at the same time establish preventive measures to reduce crimes from being committed in the first place.
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written by gurkha_malaya, December 25, 2008 22:58:52
hudud more fair than common law
example:

jika seseorang itu ditangkap kerana mencuri,hudud akan mencari punca kenapa
dia mencuri,jika ia dilakukan kerana darurat atau terpaksa.maka hudud akan
memberi keadilan yg sewajarnya sprti pengecualian hukuman dll.

Berbeza dengan common law yang tetap akan menghukum wlpn ia dilakukan kerana This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it adalah 1 contoh jika kita memahami hukum hudud.

www.saudagarsenja.********.com

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written by amoker, December 25, 2008 23:00:19
No need ISA for insulting Christianity. God is mighty and just. And Christ preaches that we turn the other cheek.

Do wonder why Jews are deemed to distord and corrupt their holy books. And Christians and churches are deemed to have done the same to injil. Yet the Koran is perfect at the hands of man?

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written by Daryl, December 25, 2008 23:05:16
It is hard for me to accept any type of government that use religion as their sole guidelines for the laws. No matter how you explain it. A PM, Menteri Besar or Chief Minister must not be the one that provide religious guide to the believers. Leave the religious matter in the hand of tose that are truely expert in that area. However, in Malaysia and so many Muslims country that line is blur and cause issues. Do you think a mosque or church will throw their support to the government if they are allocate x amount by the law no matter what or who they support? We need to seriously exploit the separation of religion and politic in order to clear up some ambiguity.
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written by angkasawan bocor, December 25, 2008 23:06:37
Merry Christmas to all Malaysia Today members and visitors

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written by united, December 25, 2008 23:15:09
Dear RPK,
Sorry bro....now I'm really confused.
Too many twists & turns.
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written by cahaya, December 25, 2008 23:35:15
Super Admin, Thanks for your quick response to my comment.
Of course RPK would never insult any religion or their adherents! And none of us want RPK to be punished for a minor error.
He was attempting to illustrate faulty subjective or relativistic thinking in that paragraph. Nevertheless it is bad taste to mention a heresy concerning the central figure of Christianity on a Christian holy day. For the sake of religious harmony and to avoid any accusation of insulting Christians, an apology would be good.
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written by TwilightYears, December 26, 2008 00:02:13
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you and to all your supporters. Another wonderful article. Hudud laws have been politicised both by PAS and by BN, and the likes of Kit Siang and Company are being manipulated into the poltical world of corruption and falsehood.

In this Merry festive day, let me quote my favourite poet and mystic, RUMI in Mathnawi, Vol. 2, verse2900:

I you scrutinize the labour of those who follow falsehood,
You'll see that it stinks -
layers upon layers, like an union -
every effort more pithless than the next (Helminski)
BUT IN THE CASE OF THE SINCERE, EVERY EFFORT IS MORE EXCELLENT THAN THE OTHER (Nicholson).

Have a nice holiday, my sincere friend.
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written by zam3886, December 26, 2008 00:16:00
There was this private joke by our first Prime Minister that we do not have enough stones in Malaysia to implement the Hudud law.
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written by confuseus, December 26, 2008 00:18:27
"Politics is about exploitation and deception. Politics, not prostitution, is the oldest profession in the world. But, while prostitutes are not politicians, politicians are certainly prostitutes. And they will prostitute themselves if need be. And most times it needs be that they prostitute themselves."

Say that again, Pet !!

Confuseus says "Yes, We need hudud to get rid of all these political prostitutes"

An UMNO ulamak also has a cheek to say that hudud is no longer relevant because the muslims are advanced and developed.
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written by zam3886, December 26, 2008 00:31:56
God has given us brain and scientists said that we are only using about 3% of it. We have to find ways to develop the other 97% if the scientists' words were true.
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written by Loh, December 26, 2008 00:37:42
When the common law can be implemented without fear and favour, then it may make sense to seek improvement in the judiciary system. Till then, the country should work towards improving the current system.
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written by Awaken64, December 26, 2008 00:49:21
Superb article RPK and a courageous article too.

How correct you put things in perspective one universe so many GODS.... seems like a bargain for an individual to choose which GOD to follow.

The Arabs went thru this cycle before the Great prophet Muhammad introduced ISLAM.
Are we losing the plot of what is the perception and what becomes reality. Is it our MIND that creates and interprets the inputs and stimuli?
Do we make the world we live in what it is?

Have we no time for compassion, joy, tranquility and service to mankind?

Was that WHY the Greek Philosopher Aristotle call the MIND - the Common SENSE?

You are definitely a REALISED being and I salute you for your XL BALLS to screw these Political WHORES with your polished ROYAL UNDERSTANDING.
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written by miwaki, December 26, 2008 00:58:44
In Malaysia,as long as BN is the government,whatever law will be turn into the "law of the jungle".Hudud or common law are the same.BN is the only law in Malaysia !
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written by Milo, December 26, 2008 01:04:23
This piece is a gem. YB RPK has put in perspective the issue as clearly as anyone can put it. If people don't want it, respect it. There is no justification in assuming your law is the only right law for everyone. Impose on those who accept hudud if you must, but leave the rest alone. If you want others to accept, win them over by good example and results, not by force.

EXAMPLE: Muslims are the minority in USA, but the law of the land protects minority rights. Even though the majority are Christians, they cannot enforce religious laws onto the Muslims or other non-christians. It is not about being anti-hudud; it is about freedom from being forced to accept a religious laws against your wish.
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written by Msian Idol3, December 26, 2008 01:12:32
What a farce this stupid UMNO/MCA is playing. AUSSUMING even if PAS wins in KT -- theres no way they can impose Hudud law. An extra seat in parliment is not going to make a dent -- we just want a protest(at least) vote on this for BN. So don't play into UMNO/MCA drum up fears. With hudup law, I think there will be mass migration of the UMNO/BN crooks. Anyway just my 2 cents --- VOTE PAS IN KT. Tell all your friends & relatives to do the same. Well written RPK.
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written by shepherdvoyage, December 26, 2008 01:13:07
Politicians with a good conscience are a very very rare species.
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written by Milo, December 26, 2008 01:44:24
Hudud can be humane if you want it to be. But has this been explained? Are the people aware that Hudud can improve society where common law has failed?
----------------------------------

That's the point. If there are princiles in Hudud laws that are good, common law can be modified through adoption of these principles. But if there are good principles in common law that are superior to some of those found in Hudud Law, can the Hudud law be modified by adoption of these common law principles? Of course not! So one of the many issues that makes Hudud laws unacceptable to non-muslims is its dogmatic approach to justice. Unlike common law, flaws in Hudud are not allowed to be corrected - because it is supposed to be God's law. Worst still, hwo many of us really trust the interpreter of these laws? These are politicians, for goodness sake!
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written by Siapabohong, December 26, 2008 02:26:03
Dear RPK,
Even you have tried to tell that we all have the same one God, but a few still believe their God is better than yours and mine, thus felt insulted when you tried to tell we are from the same one God thus no need to fight or feel insulted for whose God is better, don't you mean by that?
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written by Fart Fart Wah, December 26, 2008 02:40:41
No can do..no can do..RPK..
the Hudud has had a bad connotation of chopping hands, legs, stoning, whipping , having bamboos driven through the private parts for zina and sodomy..

and the difficult part is to get 4 witnesses..

...the perpetrator must be given mercy...that is the bottom line..for mercy and kindess, love and compassion are the ingredients to change a sinner...and that is what has been taught..in Christianity ( not practised too)...for he runnet Afganistan.. and he runneth Iraq..)

Most religions teach this..to change a man's heart......yes...man is basically a

MUNAFIQUE...


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written by Kritz, December 26, 2008 03:35:22
Islam never prescribes punishments haphazardly nor does it execute these without due consideration. In this respect Islam has a unique theory which combines the best of both worlds: the communist as well as the individualistic theories. Islam holds the balance of justice in the right manner and insists on examining all conditions and circumstances connected with the offence. On studying a crime Islam takes into account two considerations at the same time; the viewpoint of the criminal and that of the community against which aggression took place. In the light of such considerations Islam prescribes the fair punishment which is in accordance with the dictates of sound logic and wise reasoning and which must not be affected by delinquent theories and national or individual whims.

Islam imposes preventive punishments, which may appear cruel or coarse if viewed superficially or without proper consideration. But Islam does not execute such punishments unless it ascertains that the crime was not justifiable or that the criminal was not acting under any obligation.

Islam prescribes that a thief's hand should be cut, but such punishment is never inflicted where there is the slightest doubt that the thief was impelled to crime by hunger.

http://www.islam4all.com/newpage18.htm


smilies/sad.gif smilies/sad.gif smilies/wink.gif
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written by maisur, December 26, 2008 04:46:19
even RPK (who is known to say that muhammad ran like a mad man when he received the first revelation) says hudud is fair, even fairer than the current law

then, why on earth all these idiots like binarytan can't see the justice of hudud?

well, anything islam is very bad, right? hypocrite!

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written by Thambidoorai, December 26, 2008 04:54:18
Let's do a little experiment (please keep an open mind):

In RPK's essay above, remove all appearances of the words "God" and "religion".

Now, read the article again.

Do not the issues and problems raised therein become diminished or even, for some, eliminated?
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written by Dominic, December 26, 2008 05:03:09
First Merry Christmas to all.......

Lets hope one day ALL Races can convert to Christianity without Hinderance or Obstacle in Malaysia for that is the reasons CHRIST came to SAVE.

Not as RTM, Star, BH, NSTP, UTUSAN, TV3 puts it.....i.e....shopping, muhhibah, makan, have fun, persaudaraan. In RTM, after the news report they even had to quickly put an advertisement about Islam UMMAH, how great is Islam....etc...Just in case some weak muslim Faith have been tested!...this is the subtle brain washing of Malaysia Islam Psychology Game!!

This HUDUD is politics, we non-muslim malay Islam knows. UMNO-PAS just insult Islam with the way and manner they Jual Islam. UMNO-PAS are the Insulter of Islam. - We Know. That is why this supreme race(who stole the rights from Orang Asli) keeps having 5-8 children regardless of capacity and ability to nuture, norish them as Allah intended. There is no Family planning in their thinking. Their one track mind is only quantity, power then 2/3 more than any race then become Mugabe. Thanks to Allah, this Economic Criis will deal with an EVIL Agenda of Bigots Population Growth for the last 20 years. Suffer and we don't care. That is your doing.

If PAS and Raja Petra wants to Sell the virtues of Hudud, Go COMPENSATE those orang Asli CHURCH building Demolished in Kelantan and all over Malaysia, was that a demonstration of HUDUD by PAS? Perhaps Raja Petra and MT readers can open a Charity to raise the money to rebuild Churches, Temples demolished by these HUDUD inspired people. Ratio of Surau and Mosque to other religion is more than 9:1. for each 900 surau mosque there is only 10 temple, churches built. Hudud, Hadhari...all CRAP!

Keep your religion to yourself, a personal thing...what the hell is wrong with your narrow Brain to accept this Human Freedom?? Set your mind to REJECT any form of IN CREEPING IDEOLOGY OF Hudud, Hadhari or Islam until this SECT have conducted their affairs properly. Thanks be to Allah, they are Stuffing up Islam without intervention from other religion, culture and race....this we non muslim also knows.

In fact start setting you mind now on Autonomy. Give people a chance to aspire to greater heights of economic success. Lets create Singapore 2,3 4 5 6 7......if you get my drift. For a better Malaysia or Better country inside ex-Malaysia???

Use the Crisis for your advantage. Barisan Rakyat boycott UMNO-BN crony goods and sink them quickly!! For a Better Malaysia QUICKLY is only via Boycott. Start with their cash flow Petronas, Proton, Naza, Kancil, all Local Banks, news media!!
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written by rpremkumar2u, December 26, 2008 05:34:18
I wonder if many of us read in between the lines of RPK's article. I find it utterly fascinating that the son-in-law raises hudud issues whereas Pa-in-law creates hadhari. Does the MP from Rembau realize that someone could easily needle him on the pa-in-law's hadhari school of thought? Where will all these needling and pokes take us? Some will stoop to garner votes; but to stoop so low? I have more respect for a prostitute who barters herself or himself in exchange for money to fill their belly. Instead of facing the reality of economic challenges and tackling the roots of poverty to re-assess the challenges that are looming, some take to throwing a spanner in the works. Is this any solution? We have to cease responding to this school of thought(lessness). The forthcoming election should see a candidate who aspires to reform. The voters have a choice. They should elect a candidate who will bring about a bold approach to contain the encroaching economic war of 2009.
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written by jeya, December 26, 2008 06:23:27
The Winter Solstice is considered
one of the most powerful times of the year
by many cultures around the world.
In the Northern Hemisphere this celestial event
usually occurs on December 21st.
The timing of the solstice this year was
Sunday, December 21, at 7:04 a.m. EST,
4:04 a.m. PST, or 12:04 p.m. Universal Time.
The Winter Solstice is the longest night of the year,
and it heralds the initial impulse of the annual return of
the Sun, the Light, to the Earth.
This year the spiritual effects of the solstice
will be more powerful than ever before.
This is due to the incredible influx of Light
that is pouring into the planet through
the heartfelt pleas of people everywhere.
Humanity is experiencing the most intensified
purging of the economic system,
the various other social structures that do not
operate with a consciousness of the highest good
for all concerned, that we have ever endured.
This is a necessary cleansing that is
paving the way for the physical manifestation
of the patterns of perfection for the New Earth.
The difficult part of this process is that
the masses of Humanity do not see the bigger picture.
Millions of people see only the painful situations
that are happening in their lives.
As a result of this limited perception,
they feel overwhelmed and hopeless.
This is very hard to observe, but it is not all bad.
We became so numb to the discord in our lives
that we just muddled through our Earthly experiences
accepting mediocrity as a natural state of being.
We fell into the terrible habit of using pain as our motivator.
Unless we were writhing in agony,
we did not feel that it would help to take action or
to ask for assistance from our Father-Mother God.
For millions of people on Earth,
prayer and an invocation for Light from
The Divine occurs only
when they are brought to their knees by their life situations.
This is exactly what is happening at this time
for millions of people all over the world.
The Universe is revealing to us
now that more people than ever before
are reaching a critical moment in their life experiences.
Consequently, millions of people are asking Divine Intervention.
Many of them are praying for the very first time.
This powerful event,
has created the greatest influx of Light
the Earth has ever experienced during a Winter Solstice.
This Heavenly assistance will greatly empower
the patterns of perfection for the New Earth,
and it will accelerate
our individual hopes and dreams by leaps and bounds.
This event will pave the way for a Victorious New Year.
2009 is going to be a year of miraculous changes.
These changes have been in the works for quite some time,
and now we are going to experience them tangibly in the world of form.
These changes will not happen by chance.
They will occur through the unified efforts of all of us
There are a lot of dire predictions regarding the global economy
and the challenges Humanity is going through,
but we are not the victims of circumstance.
We are the co-creators of our Earthly experiences.
If we do not like the way things are going in our lives,
we have the ability to change our circumstances.
This is what we have been preparing for aeons to accomplish,
and now is the time.
“We are the ones we have been waiting for.”
2009 numerically is an 11 year.
Eleven is the master number that reflects
the transformation of the physical into the Divine.
The archetypes for the patterns of perfection for
the New Earth were securely anchored
into the physical plane in August 2008.
In 2009, through our creative faculties of
thought and feeling,
we will expand these patterns into our daily experiences.
The purging and cleansing of the obsolete behavior patterns
that have caused the maladies existing in Humanity’s lives will continue.
But the wonderful news is,
as these old archetypes crumble away,
the expansion of the patterns of perfection
for the New Earth will begin to manifest in ways
that will bring joy, fulfillment and great expectations
into the hearts and minds of people everywhere.
There is a new sense of hope flooding
through the hearts of people all over this Land/Bumi
Humanity’s hope is magnetizing Legions of Light
from the Realms of Perfection
into the atmosphere of Earth
in ways we have never experienced.
The Divine Intent of these Messengers of The Divine
is to assist Malaysians to move quickly
through the cleansing process
so that the bliss of the New Earth will manifest
in the twinkling of an eye.
2009 is going to be whatever we co-create together.
Do not let this opportunity pass you by.
Godspeed ,RPK & Family.

Patricia Diane Cota-Robles
New Age Study of Humanity's Purpose
a 501 (c) 3 nonprofit educational organization
{unashamedly modified by The Phoenix Foundation}

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written by Panca Indera, December 26, 2008 06:33:01
As usual, great article!
>>If Cain had survived and society had convicted Abel(you meant Abel had survived)
Adam lived for 900 years, guest how many children(sons and daughters)he had?
Anyway,Its best not to speculate or hypothesizes on God’s actions by mans own limited knowledge.
Remember:
[31.27] And were every tree that is in the earth (made into) pens and the sea (to supply it with ink), with seven more seas to increase it, the words(knowledge) of Allah would not come to an end; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.
[48.29] Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves; you will see them bowing down, prostrating themselves, seeking grace from Allah and pleasure; their marks are in their faces because of the effect of prostration
note:See who have them and how many have them(the marks)
[5.110] When Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favour unto thee and unto thy mother; how I strengthened thee with the holy Spirit, so that thou spakest unto mankind in the cradle as in maturity; and how I taught thee the Scripture and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and how thou didst shape of clay as it were the likeness of a bird by My permission, and didst blow upon it and it was a bird by My permission, and thou didst heal him who was born blind and the leper by My permission; and how thou didst raise the dead by My permission; and how I restrained the Children of Israel from (harming) thee when thou camest unto them with clear proofs,

knowledge comes to the messengers from God direct, not from third party as the Quran says
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Merry XMas& Maal Hijrah
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written by Malay Ultraman, December 26, 2008 08:34:56
I must agree, hudud has been well politicized. PAS just want to secure votes from Muslim, DAP wants to show off its no-hudud principle, mca/gerakan wants to bring fear to the chineses that once the hudud (if any) is implemented , then NO pork, no beer, no gamble, no 4d and temple. UMNO has fun playing up the inner conflict between PR govermenet to tell us PR CANNOT form any stable government.


Again, IF PAS and DAP fail to communicate to each other, PKR is the last hope I can count on.
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written by ROBERTNGTG, December 26, 2008 10:08:52
Run a referendum. 10 million Malaysians are minors. 16 million Malaysians are of voting age. Get the 16 million Malaysians to decide. And let that referendum of 75% tell us what they want. And if 12 million Malaysians, representing 75% of eligible voters, vote in favour of Hudud, then let this be the law of the land. If not, forever hold your tongue and let the matter be given a decent burial.
I have just about had it with political prostitutes

RIGHT ON RPK. I WOULD ALSO LOVE TO SCREW THESE SO CALLED POLITICAL PROSTITUTES
STARTING WITH THE DEVALUED BLOKE, THE OKT ALTER EGO, THE YEMENI FREAK....
NEED TONKAT ALI LAH.
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written by Milo, December 26, 2008 10:30:14
Ku Osma,

'To you your God and to me mine' is a necessary concept because mankind cannot agree they are praying to the SAME GOD, even when conceptually the description of the 'One and Only God' is almost identical. They even have wars up to now to prove their points. To avoid problems, the best is to leave others alone in their beliefs - right or wrong - their their choice or luck.

Furthermore, buddhists do not believe in the 'one almighty God' concept, and atheists believe God is a human invention at a time people have no scientific knowledge, because early humans do not understand that earthquakes and vocanic activities are the result of a cooling planet, and diseases are caused by bacteria and viruses, not God's punishment on them.





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written by apasalahku, December 26, 2008 10:43:19
Fark la! With the quality of islamic jurists in our Syariah Courts (ref Lina joy and similar cases), no Hudud for, thank you very much!
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written by ssathia, December 26, 2008 10:46:19
Islam: Say: He is Allah, The One and Only(Al Qur’an 112:1)
Hinduism: God is only one without a second.(Chandogya Upanishad 6:2:1)

Islam: And there is none Like unto Him. (Al Qur’an 112:4)
Hinduism: There is no likeness of Him.(Shwetashvatara Upanishad 4:19 & Yajurveda 32:3)

God’s form cannot be seen, no one sees Him with the eye.(Hindu book: Shwetashvatara Upanishad Chapter 4 verse 20)
There is no image of God (Hindu Book: Yajurveda Chapter 32, Verse 3)
“God is Verily Great.”( Hindu Book: Atharva Veda book 20 hymn chapter 58 verse 3)

Brahma: One of God’s names is Brahma meaning creator. In Arabic it translates into Khaliq. Islam has no objection to God being called Khaliq.
Vishnu: One of God’s name is Vishnu meaning sustainer. In Arabic it translates into Rabb. Islam has no objection to God being called Rabb.

The Muslims prefer to call God Allah. Allah is one and singular and has no gender. Interestingly the oldest of the Hindu Scriptures, Rigveda uses the term Allah to denote God as well. Rigveda Book 2 hymn 1 verse 11, Rigveda Book 3 hymn 30 verse 10, Rigveda Book 9 hymn 67 verse 30
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written by Milo, December 26, 2008 11:01:12
Ku Osma, RPKid not Muhammad learn from the Christians and much of Islam ‘adopted’ from Christianity?
My comment: So, Muhammad did not learn from god, then. Who were his christian teachers?
-----------------------------------------

The belief that the Quran (introduced by Prohet Mohammad) is from God is strickly a Muslim belief. By definition a belief is any cognitive content held as true by the believer, so it is not necessarily true, just what is HELD to be true.

That the Quran borrowed from other religious texts, in particular the Hebrew's and Christian's religious texts, is well documented by religious scholars, and such information are ambly available in the net. The Mormon Christians also claim that their religious text is the latest revelations by God and Jesus actually visited the Founder Joseph Smith in America, so do you believe it too?

The problem with dogma is the followers are not suppose to question what's taught critically to ensure that the teachings make any sense. Tell me why there are four major schools in Islam and why the Sunni and Shia are killing each others in Iraq? Aren't they all following the Quran - the one and only true words of God? The omnipresence God didn't foresee these happenings and this all powerful being is not powerful enough to prevent these from happening? Or is it the All-loving God suddenly find he has no mood to care for his creation and just watch with folded arms waiting for the day he will be passing judgment on those who are not lucky enough to choose the right religion? At the meantime, he keeps creating babies all over the world, including in families that are in the 'enemy' territory, thus guaranteeing tons of his creation will go to ever-lasting hell of burning fire.

You just have to understand that humans are very good at making up stories based on their fantasies and back them up with fantastic claims and what is happening around us will suddenly all make sense.

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written by frazkok, December 26, 2008 11:08:02
written by Super Admin, December 25, 2008 22:37:16

cahaya, hmmm, after getting sent to Kamunting for insulting Islam is he now going back there for insulting Christianity?

Read the article again and that part that says "as many now believe?

=> No worries, generally christians are open minded. There'll be no amok or explosions. Christians usually forgive and adapt. That's the beauty.
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written by MMhunter, December 26, 2008 11:29:17
ahmadneil, says.. Thank you for not saying I'm not a malay.Why is my race issue so irritating to some like you.If you happen to be one of those political prostitute,then I strike the bull eye.Go on,satisfy umno to the best of your ability and service them with all the strength you have.Politician and prostitution are equally old profession and that is why they are associated with one another....Dont digress...What i say is simply this ...what moral authority do you have tp preach to us when your own conduct is in doubt.Here its a issue of moral standing and it has nothing to do with any political party.Stand and up and fight like a man if u have backbone otherwise just vanish...We could do with out you.
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written by Milo, December 26, 2008 11:31:25
Ku Osma, RPK: And if 12 million Malaysians, representing 75% of eligible voters, vote in favour of Hudud, then let this be the law of the land. If not, forever hold your tongue and let the matter be given a decent burial. My comment: RPK will only support the implementation of hudud if most people favour hudud. If not, then those who support hudud should not even mention hudud. RPK is against free speech?
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YB RPK is not against free speech. From the context he is saying it, it is obvious he meant to PAS "don't go make a fool of yourself while jeopardizing the struggle of PR by unnecessarily making the 'Hudud' implimentation claim, when it won't happen as a matter of current reality."
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written by Milo, December 26, 2008 11:54:04
Cahaya,

It is true that there are some non-comfirmed information leading to the "believe" that even Jesus may be influened by buddhist teachings or may even be a buddhist himself. According to these sources of the information, it was believed that the buddhist missionaries sent out by King Asoka 500 years after the passing away of Buddha, was in contact with Jesus (who happen to be born during that particular period) and has influence on him. These infomation could be true or false, hence there is nothing insulting when RPK states that information and qualify it with "as many now believe".

BTW, there is a changing zeitgeist among an increasing number of people who hold that religion should not be made immune to criticism, just as we can critise work of music, art or a book. They say, if your beliefs are sound, you can always defend it with facts, and not hide behind the "you cannot insult us" tag. They ask, if your religion is sound, why cant you defend it? Seems to make sense with me.
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written by guns head, December 26, 2008 12:21:23
i was in singapore and asked a proclaimed holy malay guy about hudud. He said hudud penalty can be applied if got 4 witness.

Example: you steal and got 2 witness, but the hudud law cannot be applied cause u need 4 witness. So the thief will be like baginda in LARGE excaped. The thief will be laughing cause only got two witness and he is not bothered casue hudud cannot do anything to him. So this malay singaporean said getting 4 witness is hard.

Think like this
those thousand year ago people in desert under camp/ tents if do wrong always got many open eyes as witness but nowadays all in hidden rooms, houses hard to see ...

Furthermore the stupid court rejects anything in digital mode like u take digital pictures.

So i think if hudud applied , i will be thief, rapist , etc cause u cannot catch me....hahhaahha u need 4 witness

is this explanation true Mr RPK ?
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written by Fuminari, December 26, 2008 12:41:41
pathetically,it seems like malaysian politic revolves only around religion n race which they are now only jus in that!!where are the materials cut out to manage,to administrate in proper,to proficiently construct the nation n to lead n guide the rakyat n the nation towards the future,to enable malaysian readily engage in all global aspect???none,especialy with umno.
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written by BennyG, December 26, 2008 12:41:48
Brilliant article!

Two things I like most about this article:
1. Politician are prostitutes (best description of the year)
2. Clarification of what Hudud is about. MSM published only the bad side and abuses of Hudud by men which caused a lot of misconception and fear in all. Even the Muslims are confused since majority (I believe 99.9% of them are Umnoputras) seemed fearful of it.

Thank you for your writings and teachings.

Happy New Year to all!
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written by Jit Dharma, December 26, 2008 12:46:47
Brother ssathia, thank you for sharing your knowledge on the
similiarities between both the Islamic and Hindu conceptions
of the Creator. The information implies that Hinduism
appears to have both monotheistic and polytheistic dimensions.
You could summarise that the Creator is one and His emanations
( Expressions)infinite.Worship is diverse, God is one.The
commonality is that we yearn to know Him and claim to love
Him and yet our actions often fail to prove this.We reveal
time and again that ignorance and shallowness inform our
actions.
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written by Thiru, December 26, 2008 12:51:02
Lets have progressive thinking. ok.
The thinking of some centuries ago cannot be applied now.
Remember the evolutionary mind is moving and lets partake that.
So unless some futuristic thought is put forward please reject the yesteryear whatever credit given then.
Do the right mind think it will make our life better when it did not earlier?
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written by Rainbowseahorse, December 26, 2008 12:59:47
Dear bro Pete,

I have read, re-read and then some, your article.

First, you sound totally in a pissed off mood!

I believe each and every one of our God is One and the same…the Creator, the Great Almighty, time before the big bang, the God that was, is, and will be before us. The One God whom we worship in many forms, and the One whom many seek for help (even for winning that elusive big jackpot), the Giver, the Protector, the One who also Destroy and Takes away, the One who Makes all things possible. In whatever form we worship God, we believe in God who is unseen like the wind which we cannot seen but yet, through its unseen presence, we know it existed.
Down the ages, humans want, and indeed expect, direct contact with the Creator. We cannot comprehend that everything we see before us on planet Earth can happen without some higher force. It’s inconceivable that life on Earth can exist without someone tending to them like we tend to the fields. And taking Life to the molecular level opens up more questions than answers. How can life exist and to come about as it is? What was there before the Big Bang? In the billions, if not trillions, of galaxies, are there more Life forms in their planets? What are these Life forms like in these other planets? Do they too believe in a Creator whom we call Allah/God on planet Earth? Or have they found the answers to what we are searching for?
Taken in this context, our religions, as we made them out to be, seem so insignificant and irrelevant. Are we to believe what we have been told to be the absolute truth by religious authorities of events that happened some thousands years before? In a time when men were living in a world seeped in superstitions and fear of the incomprehensible? But our religious leaders tell us not to question what is written (by humans) in the “holy books” even though these books were written from oral memories and after hundreds of years after the actual events.
Yes, I quite agree that the Hudud laws are meant to be good. In fact, the laws are a down-to-earth minus the “eye-for-an-eye” concept, where death is the ultimate punishment for serious crimes. As you said, the victim is given choices, and if the choice is for earthly compensation, then so be it, as the victim do not benefit from death punishment to the guilty. In other words, what has been done cannot be undone and one has to make the best out of the situation. No point in saying “God will punish you in hell” and all that afterworld condemnations.

But, again as you said, it is the very people, of human origin of course, who implement and melt out Hudud laws that makes it rather dicey. If that power falls upon evil hands, than Hudud laws becomes evil.
So it is best the majority makes the decision and stick by that decision.
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written by tan_eng, December 26, 2008 13:15:12
Religion is Cult
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written by tan_eng, December 26, 2008 13:15:44
[h2]Religion is Cult[/h2]
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written by Rainbowseahorse, December 26, 2008 13:17:36
Now I want to comment on our two major religion…Christianity & Islam!
“Early Christianity” from Wikipedia.

Circumcision was mandatory in early Christianity but Paul argued against the practice for the sake of his Gentiles converts (documented in Acts 15) while Peter vocally supported the controversy.
Mention that Jesus has siblings and most Christians will say “Huh? What? No way!”, but one of the Apostles, James (the Just), is Jesus’ brother which many Christians are not aware of the fact.

The thing here is that many Christians do not want to know historical facts (as can be found from the many Acts) and would rather be insulated within what they have been taught by Christian Priests and Sisters who advocate “Do not question God’s words or you will be damn to hell”! Scary tactic used down the ages and, amazingly, still works!

And our Koran? We Muslims are supposed to believe the Koran to be handed down from God to Prophet Mohammed, without human intervention, in Arabic ¬ perfect, immutable in message, language, style, and form. The oneness of the Koran stands as a metaphor for Islam’s conception of the oneness of God.
But yet, controversy persist that the original text was not written in Arabic as at the time of the Prophet, Arabic was not yet sophisticated enough for scriptural composition. Most scholars think the language was probably written in the Prophet’s tribe, Meccan Quraysh, which was heavily influence by the lingua franca Aramaic language at that time. It was only after two centuries years after the Prophet’s death that Muslim commentators got round to interpreting the precise meaning of the text, but in which time Aramaic loan words were mis-read and mis-interpreted as Arabic.

So we have to believe that through these two centuries, our human Muslim oral tradition worked perfectly without any mistakes at all. Two centuries as in 200 hundred years? Yup, that’s a whole lot of oral memory! Wonder how many gigabites worth in today’s term?

The thing here is that why are we not allowed to question what is being taught to us by religious teachers who are humans just like us? It’s sort of like saying the Mac computer is the perfect computer ever designed and build and so it cannot, nor should be altered in its perfect form. Yet humans developed further into this ever evolving technology making the technology into what we know today. And the technology will still be developed further in the future with no clear end result.

We should not shut down our brains as God has given us humans the mental capacity to do what we are doing. We should use our brains as God has designed them to do and not to mothball them and capsulated in some thousands years old thinking.

May God be with you all!
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written by tan_eng, December 26, 2008 13:38:39
Religion is Cult

What is fundamentally common to all religion ?
Answer : There is a concept called GOD

Once that is out of the equation, then we are left with common LAW. Which tells you what you can do and cannot do. Similiar to our common LAW that we supposedly inherited from the English. Perhaps the sentences differs but the idea behind it is the same.

What is the next important commonality in all religion ?
Answer : Bonus Link (Yes you read it correctly, its bonus link ( the card that you swipe everytime you buy something...)

You see religion is not as powerful as our common law (Or as RPK put is the LAW of THe LAND). There are no enforcers for religion except for Islam in some countries.
So if you want people to follow your teaching, what do you do ?. Simple.... do as what Bonus Link does. Reward them {Now ! did someone said that SHell invented Bonus Link ? Nope they just borrowed the concept from religion ). How do religion do it. Hell and Heaven concept . If you follow the religion's teaching, you get points.. Malaysian Muslim call it (Pahala and Dosa), the Hindus and Buddhist call it (Karma) and so and forth.

So all you got to do is to collect as many point as possible and you get to go to the Heaven just like Bonus Link but obviously SHELL can't send you to heaven so they give you umbrellas.

The Hell is important as well. Why ? else lazy people will not bother to follow the teachings. Like you have dead as punishment for murder in our common law, we have HELL in religion, so we get to scare the layman to follow the religion (How cool is that... ).

So... that is all religion is all about (GOD and BONUS LINK)!!!!. Simple to understand ? Next time i will explain further..

See ya..

Malaysian fighting for Malaysia.

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written by Rainbowseahorse, December 26, 2008 13:47:42
tan_eng,

hehehe.. smilies/grin.gif..interesting concept this "Bonus Link"!
Should be Petronas MESRA card as SHELL's "Bonus Link" points can expire lah!

Cheers!
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written by ibabonma, December 26, 2008 13:57:58
RPK, deep inside me I suspect that all along you are an atheist or a free thinker of a type but now I have to review myself in believing that you are a good thinking Muslim bordering being an ulama of sort; and having said so, it needs to be remained try not to ignore the fact that our ulamak too should also be consulted, at times, especially on matters bordering on faith or ‘akidah’. However, my suspicion is, based on facts presented, you have not acted otherwise.
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written by Panca Indera, December 26, 2008 14:10:39
YOU CAN FAULT THE MAN BUT YOU CAN’T FAULT THIS SPEECH
from http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t...394734.ece (for full speech)

The Islamic republic of Iran President’s speech

In the Name of God the Compassionate, the Merciful.
Upon the anniversary of the birth of Jesus, Son of Mary, the Word of God, the Messenger of mercy, I would like to congratulate the followers of Abrahamic faiths, especially the followers of Jesus Christ, and the people of Britain.
The Almighty created the universe for human beings and human beings for Himself.
He created every human being with the ability to reach the heights of perfection. He called on man to make every effort to live a good life in this world and to work to achieve his everlasting life.
On this difficult and challenging journey of man from dust to the divine, He did not leave humanity to its own devices. He chose from those He created the most excellent as His Prophets to guide humanity.
All Prophets called for the worship of God, for love and brotherhood, for the establishment of justice and for love in human society. Jesus, the Son of Mary, is the standard-bearer of justice, of love for our fellow human beings, of the fight against tyranny, discrimination and injustice.
All the problems that have bedevilled humanity throughout the ages came about because humanity followed an evil path and disregarded the message of the Prophets.
Now as human society faces a myriad of problems and a succession of complex crises, the root causes can be found in humanity's rejection of that message, in particular the indifference of some governments and powers towards the teachings of the divine Prophets, especially those of Jesus Christ.

Surely the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was.They have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not, for sure.

What the five body senses cannot perceive does not means its not present!
What the mind cannot conceive does not mean it is not possible
Anything that can be measured in time is never permanent.
Because Time is created and relative to space.
Do not speculate or hypothesizes on God’s intentions or actions as our limited mind will never be able to fully comprehend GOD.What We imagine Him to be He is not.
Total surrender to His Will is the only safe and sure way.
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written by sampalee, December 26, 2008 14:27:13
Collecting points is only to determine your future after this death.Religion in its entirety is much more than that.It liberate us from the cycle of birth and death.Religion startts with concept to lead all to return to the ONE NON-CONCEPTUAL GOD.If one remain in concept,God is missed.When one cast out All concepts including the mundane and holy,GOD was Always there OMNIPRESENT
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written by gotsms, December 26, 2008 14:35:35
Good one.

I will support Hudud. It seem more of compassion. I always have the feeling that what has been politicised about the Hudud is the Hudud which is of many hundred years ago. Something which is based on the situation at that particular point in time and no longer relevant - as in stoning, cutting limb, etc. etc.

Every one is so fanatic into religion or science.

What if both are from the same source?

Please do not discount possibility of higher intelligence out there who could already be amongst us.

Fact is, most of us actually live in the Matrix. All made to believe. There have been so many questions unanswered since Mesopotamia.

Civilization may not have started from the pyramids, may have been much earlier - that the earth has been destroyed many a times before.

And we're living in interesting times in the next few years.

Time shall tell.
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written by malaysianohope, December 26, 2008 14:41:55
MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL OF YOU HERE!!!

Abang, I'm not going to argue about the hudud law which is of no impact on me unless it's imposed on me as a Malaysian, regardless of religion. But I do agree if they want to implement it, have a referendum and a 3/4 yes vote carries the vote, by which time I will say goodbye to my beloved Malaysia.
Anyevent it's a season to be jolly and lest enjoy it while we can coz it's not looking good next year.
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written by Frankfurtguy, December 26, 2008 15:15:29
Dear Pete,

People like us who read your blog,mostly will understand the mathematics/calculations about the 2/3 majority in Parliament and what you have written. We are also well aware of these PAS tactics which is hopeless (seeing thing in small scope but fails to look at big picture)

It is those people who are less fortune/less educated but have voting rights, that were confused by this Hudud's issue.

Perhaps you should go on-site to educate these uncles and aunties
Their eyes are blinded with anger of "Hudud-implementation-suggestion" now


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written by pinsysu, December 26, 2008 17:02:47
God created mankind in His own image. He gave man the freedom of making choices: to walk with Him or to walk away fr Him. as man being not da original copy & hence susceptible to various virus downloads, he continueosly "upgrade" himself into many versions & some are literally out of control. man oso modifies God's laws to suit his nids & justifies those with man's arguments / reasonings. e.g. some say it's ok to tell a white lie bcos u dowan to hurt da feelings or suicide bombers are brained washed into believing dat it's ok to kill da innocents to propagate political agenda. well a sin in God's eyes will always be a sin no matter how u package it. He'll xplain to u on judgment day ya. we could be reading many books abt God but could God's message be actually quite simple? dat da most important of all is LOVE? love thy neighbor love thy enemies etc. in any case God knows His creation only too well & He put expiry date on each of His creation. as history recorded da expiry period got shorter & shorter & dat's a good thing. can't imagine a najis around for 800 yrs ...

BTW, religions are created by man / politicians, not God. a better late than never very merry Xmas to all & pls continue to walk in da light.
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written by densemy, December 26, 2008 17:07:05
... and while Politics continues to share its bed with Religion then Hypocrisy will continue to reign in Malaysia

Hudud is another example of UMNO using religion to manipulate Malaysians
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written by fairnessforall, December 26, 2008 17:24:12
Im sorry RPK, but this is one time that I will disagree with you that hudud is fair or can improve society. I will not say much as I am not a muslim neither am I well versed with hudud laws but I only know what the ulamaks or mufti here say and according to what we have been told is that according to hudud law a woman who has been raped has to produce 4 witnesses to get justice. Now which idiotic rapist in his right mind will invite 4 people to witness him rape a woman. Obviously when a man wants to commit a crime, he will ensure there are no witnesses, so how can hudud be fair. From what we have all been hearing about hudud, its seems that the laws are only made to be fair to men and unfair to women.

Also it is none of anyones business how a person wants to live their live. No one has the right to tell them what they can or cannot do as long as what they do do not hurt anyone else and is not a crime such as robbing or stealing etc. If someone has an extra marital affair, they have to deal with it with their spouse, its not of the goverments business to punish them, as i believe that is encroaching on a persons private life. If the goverments wants to have laws to control a persons private life, then they should also take care and ensure the person is living a comfortable life, give everyone an allowance, they u have the right to control them. The dont bother when a person is suffering or has no food to eat, not do they bother if a person is sick and need medical treatment and cannot afford it. Will hudud laws take care of these people and give free medical treatment. If not, then the hudud laws are not fair.

Just my 2 cents worth. If I am wrong about the requirement of producing 4 witnesses or about hudud laws taking care of peoples needs, then correct me. But this is what I know about hudud laws as what our so called experts have been telling everyone.
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written by tan_eng, December 26, 2008 17:55:34
Dear sampalee,

How you are dude ? Merry Christmas.

Cool opinion but don't you think that you are taking religion by face value ? and not how it was meant to be understood... Perhaps ? Maybe ?

I will put my stand here.... I hope you are married because that will help you to understand my example below.

When a mother tries to feed her child and the child seems to be uninterested in consuming the meal, what does the mother do ? Couple of things right ... Normally moms always tend to scare the child with ghost story or something that is going to scare the child to eat his/her meal. Right ? Are you following me ?

So the big question is , is the story true ? No right... it was formulated to achieve certain result. In this case , so the child would consume his/her meal. I wouldn't blame the child for believing it at her age because that was the whole idea in the first place isn't. But if the same child believes the same story even when he/she is forty is old then something is wrong... isn't.. Wouldn't you agree with me?.

Religion is the same thing... It is a set of stories and laws that were created by humans to achieve certain result in changing people's behaviour. The creators had some objectives , for them if you believe in the story then the result is achieved but the question is ARE YOU GOING TO LIVE YOUR LIFE TILL END WITHOUT EVEN REALIZING THE MORAL OF THE STORY. You are not that 5 years old child anymore are you ?

One small question but i hope you would think carefully about it.

People create religion everyday, some stand the test of time, most don't...

Think again....

See ya

Malaysian fighting for Malaysia.
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written by talk2stop, December 26, 2008 18:25:13
Hudud laws or ISA are all good if no one take advantage of them and implement them in the correct manner. In Malaysia almost everything is abused. So I have grave concern if Malaysia to bring in a Hudud law. Hudud law is liken giving a bigger gun to the authority. It is not the Hudud law that I am worried. It is who is in control of the Hudud law.
Just like, I am not worried about the gun but the person that holding the gun.
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written by cahaya, December 26, 2008 19:27:56
Comment written by amoker, December 25, 2008 23:00:19
Comment written by frazkok, December 26, 2008 11:08:02
Comment written by Milo, December 26, 2008 11:54:04


Thanks guys ! for your comments and feedback to Cahaya. Celebrating Christmas this week with Christian friends helped me to better understand them and Christianity. Malaysian Christians are generally patient towards other people because Jesus taught them to love their neighbours, and to show forgiveness.
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written by cahaya, December 26, 2008 19:34:33
RPK (and Super Admin), please allow me to elaborate further on my earlier comments. Bottom line summary: We believe you would never consciously insult another religion or its faithful adherents. You would never sow discord among Malaysians. Your articles are written not to mislead or confuse your readers, but to help them understand and examine the current issues in Malaysian politics. For the record, I admire your integrity, and steadfast stand on truth, good governance and justice. Hence, my comments on your articles have always been to express appreciation. On rare occasions, when I have sought clarification on something, you have responded promptly with a clear and helpful answer.

Going back to paragraph 5 of your latest article, you asked 5 questions: And are we so different? Did not Muhammad learn from the Christians and much of Islam ‘adopted’ from Christianity? Does not the Ka’bah also appear in the same name and form in the land of the Zoroastrians in the far reaches of Persia? Did not Jesus disappear from the ages of 12 to 30 when he sought tuition from Buddhists, as many now believe? Did not John the Baptist practice what was practiced by the Hindus in India of his time? . . . The answers to these 5 questions will depend on the level of religious knowledge that a reader has acquired (whether he/she has studied in depth each major world religion, not only the holy scriptures for each religion but also disputed documents of faith which may or may not be accepted by its religious scholars) as well as the objectivity of a reader to provide an honest answer irrespective of their personal faith.

The vast majority of MT readers who are either Muslims or Christians (who have received significant teaching from qualified teachers in Islam and Christianity respectively) would probably answer sincerely as follows: Yes, we are different. No, Muslims did not learn from Christians but from Allah. No, the Ka’bah was not imported from Persia. No, Jesus did not disappear to learn Buddhism but he learnt carpentry. No, John was not a practising Hindu. From what and how you wrote, you were not really looking for any answers from your readers. You wanted to point out that subjective or relativistic thinking (or religious propaganda from the mass media) can influence a person’s position on certain religious issues.

Sadly, some politicians in Malaysia have abused religion for politcal purposes (you call them “political prostitutes”). You wanted your readers to notice such abuse. Thus, in the second part of paragraph 5 you wrote: But what can we really believe? Do we really know what was fact and fiction thousands of years ago? What we do know is what we have been told to believe. And what we are told to believe is what they want us to believe. And what they want us to believe is what suits the political agenda of those who walk in the corridors of power.

Like many other god-fearing Malaysians, you feel upset when some politicians abuse race or religion for political purposes (to justify unlawful political policies or to retain political power). They either instigate race-based issues, or start debates on religious issues, or both. However, racial issues and religious issues are not, and should not be, the basis for democratic elections.

The Hudud issue (which only affects Muslims) was something debated by two younger politicians last weekend in Kelantan. One statement was blown out of proportion by the mass media. The BN politicians led by UMNO wanted to confuse and divide voters in the Kuala Terengganu elections. UMNO tried to instill fear among the naïve voters, especially the Chinese. But Hudud is a not an issue for elections. DAP leaders tried hard to explain that Hudud does not affect the Chinese, and Hudud should not be an issue for the KT elections. Through your recent articles in MT, you did a great job to explain why Hudud cannot be easily implemented, giving numbers and calculations to back your explanation. Thank you! We are very glad the issue is now resolved, after the clarifications from various PAS leaders.

Having said all that, an apology may still be in order to the Christian readers of MT. Your sentence was not the best for a holy day. If you choose to apologise, you would demonstrate your goodwill (as a Muslim) towards Christians during Christmas season. Your example as a Bangsa Malaysia would definitely encourage MT readers to extend their friendship to Malaysians of other faiths. Thanks again to you and your Admin team for all your work on MT this year. Best wishes for the New Year!
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written by sampalee, December 26, 2008 20:26:10
We owe it to ourselves to read the scripture in its entirety.After that,we can dismiss it if it make no sense.The buddhist dharma record that for those with strong negative karma,they will not read the scripture,but will instead reducule the teaching.Nabi Isa compare such people reaction to scripture as casting pearl before the swine.
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written by yellowkingdom, December 26, 2008 20:55:45
Such is religion. And such is politics. And religion is not about God. It is about politics. And Cain killed Abel not for God but for politics. The good died that day, thousands of years ago. And we are descendants of the bad that lived, not the good that died.

So, can mankind be good when we are children of bad? How can the fruit of a poisonous tree be nothing but poisonous? If Cain had survived and society had convicted Abel and sentenced him to death for attempted murder, then we would probably be good because then we would be children of Cain, not Abel.

RPK, enlightening article. Perhaps, in the above paragraph you had meant to say "If Abel had survived and society had convicted Cain and sentenced him to death for attempted murder, then we would probably be good because then we would be children of Abel, not Cain."
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written by tan_eng, December 26, 2008 21:27:18
Dear Sampalee,

Thank you, point noted. smilies/smiley.gif

But these two sentence probably can be explained like this also.. smilies/smiley.gif

1. "The buddhist dharma record that for those with strong negative karma,they will not read the scripture,but will instead redicule the teaching
"
[Strong negative Karma huh ? I wonder how someone would be able to do that... Must be a magician or a genius. They know nothing but they can debate about the subject. I wish to meet one.]


2. "Nabi Isa compare such people reaction to scripture as casting pearl before the swine"

[No offence to the christians but if he actually did that then something is seriously wrong with the fella, he was supposedly be a god's son and i don't think any god's son would whin and grumble or even go that far to humilate his own father's creation (The PIG) by saying such things. ]

Eventough it eventually boils down to Bonus Link Concept again , i will try to make my stand clearer. Whether it is Buddihism , Christianity or Islam it doesn't really matter, if you look closely at all religion, they might do things differently but essentially the core idea is still the same thing.

If you are a smart person you don't have to memorise or read the scriptures in its entirety to understand what they are trying to say. [If you see a Perdana or a Benz, you don't have to see its blue print before you can clasify it as a car, do you ?]

If you don't believe me, try to find the differences in Buddihism , Christianity , Islam and Hinduism. I will bet that essentially what they are trying to achieve is nothing more than teaching people how to live properly in this world, how to be kind to each other and everything about maintaining peace and harmony. There is nothing more to it everything else is method of compelling you to do so. [Something like decoration on your birthday cake, the decoration was meant to make the cake look beautiful and tempting so you will eat the cake] Its a moral study. Some religion like Hinduism seems to have scientific research embedded in their approach while some don't but the core idea is still the same.

You know the weird thing is that we humans need religion to go to Heaven as majority believes, i wonder what happens to animals such as Pig... Do they get to go the Heaven also ?

Good night guys..

See ya,

Malaysian fighting for Malaysia.
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written by tan_eng, December 26, 2008 21:43:49
Dear Rozlan,

Cool views dude...

You see i never understood why such atrocities has to be done on Muslims. All in the name of Islam. Muslims get bullied through their own faith. The punishment and the enforcement is such ridiculous that sometimes i wonder why my Muslim brothers had to put up with such things.

All religion teaches you to be good. If you understand that then you will change your view about religion. Don't take religion by face value, it was meant to teach the layman to appreciate the moral behind it. This might be shocking truth for you but i just have to say it... Nope even Islam was not sent by God, just like other religions, it was merely written by humans in the name of faith or Religion for all of us.

Good night guys..

See ya,

Malaysian fighting for Malaysia
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written by apa jadi, December 26, 2008 21:58:10
Cahaya,

BELIEVE is the key words to all your argument. We can end up thousand polemics based on BELIEVE. The are still a million polemics in line when the cow comes home.

The medieval Europe was based on BELIEVE. REASON destroyed the dark ages in Europe, and replaced with renaissance......

Evidence based research end a million polemics with just a simple proof. Go find Dead Sea Scroll and Shroud of Turin and proof the hearsays a few thousand year ago. You may be sitting on the Arch of Noah trying to steer humanity to progress.

Before the Hadron Particle Collider was fired up, the BELIEVERS says the end of the world is near. The beauty of the particle collision disproved these BELIEVERS. The earth still spins. Believe...believe...believe....the cow is coming home.
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written by AhLiew, December 26, 2008 22:51:29
Dear Pete, I like most of your work.
That's why I believe you were having a very bad mood when you write this article.

"Hudud can be humane if you want it to be."
If this is your point that Hudud is better then what we have now, I would say it's rather a very weak one.
I do not agree that common law hang someone base on the smoking gun. The concept of presume innocent is generally accepted and if there is reasonable doubt in a case, the doubt will benefice the accused. On the other hand, even if someone are found guilty, the judge still have to consider the circumstances before give final punishment.
Oh! yes. It's the judge, a man, that will decide. But same with Hudud, or is it not?

The death sentence (same with the prison sentence) in common law is make sense that everyone only have one life. So if Bill Gates murder someone, the sentence to him is as heavy as someone murdered by Ah Beng. But if Bill Gates is allow to "pay off" his guilt by "contribute to solve the economic problems of the deceased's family", it will not be fair for Ah Beng.

Due to advance of technology, many new technique is use to determine the truth of a case. One good example is the checking of DNA for sperm that found inside a raped victim.
Back to Hudud law (this is what I were informed and so far no one have clarify otherwise), you need 4 "wise man" as witnesses to "confirm" a rape case. Too bad Hudud is claimed to be make by God and no amendment can be made.

"Hudud is better than what we have now. But it can be worse if we want to make it so. And chances are the evil in man will make it worse."
All law can be used for good.
The different between good law and bad law is good law is more difficulty to be miss used. I'm not sure the same can be said for Hudud law.

Just my two cents.

Fully agree with you that religion is used by politician through.
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written by captmarco ramius, December 27, 2008 01:23:27
Rozlan,

Question will arise.How to differentiate between these three groups?Haiya,why so bodoh, Apa susah.Use MYKAD la.The mycard will put a special note or symbol to differentiate them..So the police and the criminals will know

WOW ! That must be some kind of 'gentlemanly' criminal...
Checking your religious status before stabbing you to death before robbing you...

So...how should it go down now ?. A thief comes to you at knifepoint with the intention to rob you, you expect him to ask for your MYKAD to confirm your religion ?.

You don't appear to be sensible at all !

And what do we do with the FEDERAL CONSTITUTION then ?. One of the pre-requisite setforth for INDEPENDENCE ?. Are we going to just flush it down the drain and return to caveman era.

Comment on things that make sense...please. Thank you.
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written by CatV5, December 27, 2008 01:26:00
Dear Rozlan, you make some interesting ideas on applying laws to muslim and they can choose a lifetime chance to take secular laws if they want to. But i'm skeptic about the acceptance of that idea. We can see the cases of new muslim converts who wants out. The conservatives, the extremist, the manipulator muslims just can't accept it. As long as ppl like Zulkifli Nordin are out there, he will fight till his last breath to protect his religion... i've heard his daawah, and it is inspiring, to fight (fight what??? i dunno) back and protect the religion is the only logic that i know at that time due to lack of knowledge of other religion and philosophies. So for them to uphold the religion based on what has been written in stone is the only logic that they have, the new muslim generations must be protected from getting out of their religion. Negotiating for it is out of the question. It's Hukum Allah. So they say..

Only the liberals and quranist understands this... The government can't do anything due no political leaders that have guts like RPK. They have to uphold the law and their periuk nasik... But luckily this is Malaysia... we are very creative at innovating things... so our current Malaysian Syariah law is a bit twisted and opt for a less barbaric choice... no death penalty for them.. just forcefully rehabilitated. And they just can't think the logic that once that person had made up their mind they can't do anything to hold their soul sovereignty... perfect religion huh? And yet we must not use logic because this is the hukum Allah.. I'm sad to see how the only akal that have been given to us has been shutdown... they have feared to use it when it comes to Allah, Quran, Muhammad, Islam and Hadith and use the dusty old kitab to justify their means. So the old scribes are better than them... Good for them... And don't take me to how they want to imitate their prophet... I had enough... Let them be in peace..

Like RPK said, Hudud law is as good as any law, heck if people is really obedient and behave properly we don't need any law... but the reality is not like this... They have been praying to protect their religion, their race, their dead prophet, their sultan... and thus God gave them their wish.. God gave them tasks to make them protect their religion.. make them buzy to protect their religion.. protect it with their life.. so that the will have the heaven.. that's what most of them ask.. it is given to them...

we have opt to choose the fight and flight path... rather than the love and growth path... see for yourself, how much fear has been imposed to us compared to love? The media has a lot to say about that. i dunno about christians, buddhist or hindus. But most of Muslims talks in ceramah are about fights, the glory of old war, hudud laws, fear of God, hell and the deceit of satan. And it is added with a powerful emotional intention of worriness of the religions future. Think of how powerful the doa is?.. If you notice, if mixed with the stories of loving side of Allah, choose the path of peace, how beautiful is the heaven, how complex and nicely arranged is the creation of this world and how beautiful we are as human and the lovely angels, and appreciation of what we already have is less stressed and have been buried by the more fearful stories... If they choose the loving side of Islam, they will stress on the trust... they won't worry and fear about the outcomes, they just trust.. they just tawakkal to Allah. But this side of Islam has been neglected... they pray for protection due to worry and fear right? that's what they got. God gave them villains for them to protect from.. no compromise... God is true to his words... If only they pray to be able to give more love...

It's common sense, a fearful cat just don't want to come out to eat.. fear takes over the love and this is what happen... the cat just can't find the logic to get out and taste the delicious friskies. The cat will just stay there... but it is not that bad too.. the cat will adapt to it's current surrounding and eat the grass beside it.. tho it's taste a bit different, but it's still food ... the cat wants to survive...

God loves analogies... i love it too.. ah.. the food of the world.. so delicious.. a lot of varieties... once we learn how to appreciate what we have.. i bet RPK doesn't have to make articles to bash anyone anymore.. instead he will create and article that promotes how to love chinese, hindus, malays and what not. Heck he might write an article to love Najib and Rosmah... lol..

This is the words inspired by the higher mind if you choose to connect to it... full of love and joy... seek love guys, seeks the within...

Salam
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written by captmarco ramius, December 27, 2008 01:32:22
Rozlan,

On second thoughts, forget about my comments on the Federal Constitution...
It does not EXIST anymore...by the looks of it...

FRU free to WHACK THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS OF PEACEFUL DEMOSTRATORS,
GOVT free to demolish PLACES OF WORSHIP of other religious faiths,
GOVT free to STIFLE CIVIL DISSENT with IKUT SUKA AKU act...and the long list goes on and on, in Bolehland...
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written by captmarco ramius, December 27, 2008 01:35:49
CatV5,

Very well said. Thank you.
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written by Spear Bing, December 27, 2008 02:38:42

Dear apa jadi,

The word "BELIEVE" is a verb, not a noun. The correct usage of the word should be "BELIEF" in the context of the your sentence construction.



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written by teo siew chin, December 27, 2008 06:19:06
Just back from a 'white' country where i dont see any festivities in grand commercialised scale over the religious holidays be it in the big cities or little hick towns. The celebration of religion is a private matter and this white-man country is mindful of the varied peoples of the world that either stay or visit. The priority is to be a decent chap and be kind to oneself and others. And if possible, stay away from prostitutes. and politicians! smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif

Happy 2009 to YM Raja Petra & family and to all MT-ers too! btw YM RPK, u sure u wanna have the ad "Is Jesus God" right next to your pic? smilies/wink.gif
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written by apa jadi, December 27, 2008 11:58:52
Oops....Thanks anyway Spear Bing. I don't normally check my messages before I send them. There are plenty of spelling and grammatical errors in most of my messages.

Arch of Noah -- should read Noah's Ark
Believers says --- Believers said

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written by sampalee, December 27, 2008 14:24:48
Most people quote like this,'All religions are the same it teaches us to be good'For those who have insight,this statement is only HALF correct.All religions are indeed the same,they teaches us the ONE truth which transcend both good and bad.Jesus say,'know the Truth and ONLY the Truth can set you free'.Scripture is exact in its intent,why add opinions around it.We start by accepting the face value of scripture by act of faith.One must then verify what was accepted against our experiences and this combination allow ed for insight to arise.Move from concept of GOD[mere believe]to understang[beyond believe] to be one with GOD.This is way adopted in every single religion without exception.
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written by Milo, December 27, 2008 16:29:55
sampalee,

what Jesus said carries no meaning to those who are not Christians, just as what Prophet Mohammad said has little meaning to non-muslims. And since each religion has a different concept of who its God looks like, those differences must first be understood before we can even talk of understand how to be one with God. The automatic question that would arise on this issue would be: "Which God or even Gods?" Does the Christians believe that the Muslims are worshiping the same God as them and vice versa? As far as I know, it is not. Religions have made God partisan ONLY to them, and only to THEM alone. The realities we are witnessing clearly show that even within the same religion, the different sects or denominations or schools fight amoung themselves over who really represents God. Each believe they hold the only key to heaven, and the rest will go to hell. This is in fact precisely one of the key reasons why we cannot accept Hudud laws. Just to start with, it is simply disrespectful, insensitive and arrogant to impose your religious laws on people who are of a different faith.
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written by sampalee, December 27, 2008 18:50:52
Brillient observation.As long as God remain a concept in mind's realm,then it is subjected to differentiation as such is the nature of mind[minas/intellect].With differentiation arises duality such as yours or mine.right or wrong,good or evil and the list cover every every item within our knwledge.What is shinning through the mind and illuminating[aware of]the concepts CAN only be NON-conceptual Non-Dual and Absolute.The Quoran refer it as Al Nur[the light]The buddhist refer it as Amithaba[litmitless light] and lord Jesus merely say I am the LIGHT[and the way]We must allow each of our various religious sect to complete their teaching to bring us HOME[GOD,Allah,Brahman,Buddha,etc]The funny part is we have in fact never left Home as it is Omnipresent.Nothing can be out of Omnipresence[or it lose its omniness]
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written by CatV5, December 27, 2008 21:07:47
Ah light, we are living in the light. The light is everything that encompasses. Quantum physicist has seen us as just an empty space. We are just a waves of energy. just a vibration of energy. Light energy. Light as a whole is not the visible red to violet rays that we can only see... it is more than that... there's an infinite of light frequency that we still haven't discover yet and won't see it as long as we stay on this current vibration.

In light there is no darkness. There is only less light or more light. darkness is not possible in this universe. Yet we agree it as 0 light where there is none. only less of light. Light is knowledge. Illumination of the source. The source of our life. the life energy. How beautiful is light. Ask more light. And we will give you more light. There's abundance of light. Just ask.
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written by Taiping60, December 27, 2008 22:42:35
Happy New Year to you RPT and family.

Yes, you have done a great job to provoke the thought of many Malaysians.
Yes, majority of Malaysians will never be the same again.
Yes, not all Malaysians use their votes wisely. However, with you and several more moderate Malaysians educating us, you can be sure there will be more and more Malaysians will vote wisely in future,
Yes, most of us have not done enough to push the government to change. But you can be sure this has changed and more will changes as time goes by.
Yes, majority of our politicians are hypocrates.
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written by quietguy, December 28, 2008 01:49:08
Let me give you some food for thought.

For Islamists, the goal is always to establish an Islamic state. And one element of an Islamic state is Islamic law, of which one aspect is Hudud. Right now, the forefront Islamist organisation in Malaysia is PAS. And PAS has chosen the path of democracy. The good thing about democracy is, nobody have to die. Meaning that if PAS succeeds at establishing Islamic law in Malaysia, they would be doing it without any bloodshed.

Now, let me ask you this question: Do you want PAS to fail? Yes? Are you sure? Please think deeply for a moment. What will happen if PAS fails? What will happen, if, one day, PAS decides that democracy is not a viable path to achieving an Islamic state? What will happen to all the Islamists who will still yearn to establish Islamic law in Malaysia? Would they not then decide to find some other avenue to achieve their objective? And what would the other avenue be? Would it not be probable, then, that after seeing that peaceful means doesn't work, they would then use some other not so peaceful means?

So to all of you who hate PAS so much, please think of the alternative. Would you rather have PAS, or Hamas? PAS, or Hizbullah? PAS, or the Taliban? This is not a threat. This is reality.
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written by Milo, December 28, 2008 12:35:58
quietguy,

This is a silly way to choose a party to rule your life. It is also a false limitation to place on Malaysians.

We choose PR precisely because UMNO is taking away the people's freedom bit-by-bit through draconian laws and bias treatment of religious issues concerning non-muslims. If we can allow PAS to impose their religious laws on non-muslims and support them because of fear they may turn radical (like the Talibans), we might as well just let UMNO-BN rule. It is no point wasting energy to change thing when we will end up jumping from the frying pan to the wok!

The message should be clear - each their own beliefs and rationally acceptable laws to govern the people. Any political party which violates this principle should be rejected AT ALL COSTS!
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written by carribeanking7, December 28, 2008 14:05:28
If I had my way I would have the death penalty abolished altogether, but in our country it is even meted out in cases where a life has not been taken, it is law because the majority of the population support it.

Like wise implementing hudud would require the support of the majority, in a country where 40% are non-Muslim this is not likely.
RPK even goes a step further by saying that 148 parliamentarians cannot decide on this matter for 26 million malaysians.
My guess is if a referendum were called in parliament tommorow, I would be very surprised indeed if 112 lawmakers passed the hudud bill, even if the entire PAS and UMNO lawmakers got together ( very unlikely) it woul only be 102- far away from the requisite 148.

There are many who glibly quote scriptures but hardly live out by example the values they expouse.
They law of any land, must embody the values held dear by the majority of her citizens.

Since the run up to Mar 08 , this is the 4 th or 5th time RPK has had to explain in different variations on this issue, and from the comments I read above it is painfully obvious that many do not get it.
Other than commenting on the main article most of you are taking pot shots at each other while showing that you truly do not understand the issue at hand.

UMNO is very pleased with this confusion and together with its component parties are having a field day playing it up through the MSM.

They are even engaging so called experts to declare the ISA as Islamic.
Merdeka centre pollster says that 70% of those polled from a wide section of society DISAGREE with the need for ISA.

So I ask you fellow citizens , politicians with a conscience, Ulama and others why are we allowing UMNO to distract us from repealing a draconian law like ISA that already exists, but instead waste our breath and emotions over a law that does not even have a slim hope of being ratified given the current situation.

Are we so gullible that we do not see this ?

Vijay Kumar Murugavell
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written by Panca Indera, December 28, 2008 16:40:01
Ref:”When a mother tries to feed her child and the child seems to be uninterested in consuming the meal, what does the mother do ? Couple of things right ... Normally moms always tend to scare the child with ghost story or something that is going to scare the child to eat his/her meal. Right ? Are you following me ?

That must be one hell of an uneducated mother!

If she is educated she would not do such things, but instead try to discover the reason why the child would not eat’ i.e.
1.not hungry.
2.sick
3.distracted by TV or something

Then take appropriate logical measure to overcome.
That’s why education is more important than just going to school and pass exams.

Your story, taken into a bigger picture, actually describe the majority of the people of this country that being told by BN and UMNO not to vote for the Alternative Parties otherwise something bad will happen.
So who are the five year olds?

“But if the same child believes the same story even when he/she is forty is old then something is wrong... isn't.. Wouldn't you agree with me?.”

3/4 of Malaysians think like five year olds.
Religion is the same thing... Wrong!
Some religions or most cultsdo that. But Serious and true religions are not stories told by men.
Think of it, only five year old brains think that ways.
But then Its my opinion, just like yours.
smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif
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written by Milo, December 28, 2008 18:29:35
So I ask you fellow citizens , politicians with a conscience, Ulama and others why are we allowing UMNO to distract us from repealing a draconian law like ISA that already exists, but instead waste our breath and emotions over a law that does not even have a slim hope of being ratified given the current situation. Are we so gullible that we do not see this ?
Vijay Kumar Murugavell
------------------------------

Mr Vijay,

Your concern and those who support PR are the same. But unfortunately, this distraction would not have arisen if we do not have dumb leaders who keep on bring up this irrational idea that "Hudud only applies to Muslims BUT we (PAS) still intend to make it federal law (that will automatically affects everyone) if ever we come into POWER!" What does such open declarations tell you of the PAS leaders' thoughts, reasoning ability and the way they might use their political power?

Remember we support PR for clear reasons, and if those very reasons are threaten because some leaders prostitute themselves, then our objections must be heard loud, clear and immediate! We cannot afford to let them off the hook just to save the election day only to find it is too late when they are already in power.
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written by Panca Indera, December 28, 2008 19:01:24
Just to clear any misconception.
None of God's prophets received any religious knowledge from any other source except Him.All the prophets were divnely inspired by none other than ALLAH.
(light is created and has no mind or thought.) inferior to man

Clear proofs that knowledge comes from GOD ref:
[6.104] Indeed there have come to you clear proofs from your Lord; whoever will therefore see, it is for his own soul and whoever will be blind, it shall be against himself and I(Muhammad) am not a keeper over you.
[6.105] And thus do We repeat the communications and that they may say: You have read; and that We may make it clear to a people who know.
[6.106] Follow what is revealed to you from your Lord; there is no god but He; and withdraw from the polytheists.
[6.107] And if Allah had pleased, they would not have set up others (with Him) and We have not appointed you a keeper over them, and you are not placed in charge of them.
[6.108] And do not abuse those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest exceeding the limits they should abuse Allah out of ignorance. Thus have We made fair seeming to every people their deeds; then to their Lord shall be their return, so He will inform them of what they did.
6.111] And even if We had sent down to them the angels and the dead had spoken to them and We had brought together all things before them, they would not believe unless Allah pleases, but most of them are ignorant.
[6.112] And thus did We make for every prophet an enemy, the Shaitans from among men and jinn, some of them suggesting to others varnished falsehood to deceive (them), and had your Lord pleased they would not have done it, therefore leave them and that which they forge.
[6.113] And that the hearts of those who do not believe in the hereafter may incline to it and that they may be well pleased with it and that they may earn what they are going to earn (of evil).
smilies/cool.gif
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written by Milo, December 28, 2008 19:11:16
Sorry Panca, just like all the verses from other religious texts, these are not proofs for the non-followers - just stories made up by men - perhaps some of these writers are wise men, that's all.

Of course, just because they are from men does not mean they are automatically of no value. Even my management consultant can give me wisdom once a while. YB RPK has given us much wisdom, some of a much higher quality than what is taken from the book (mmm... wonder if God spoke to him. But we should first evaluate all statements to see if they make sense. Blind acceptance is only for CULTS!
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written by tan_eng, December 28, 2008 20:49:21
Dear Panca Indera,

Let me wish you Awal Muharam, May God bless you.

Interesting views but i guess you are expecting me to say something aren't you. So i am not going to disappoint you. so here it goes.

1. "That must one hell of uneducated mother"..

[You know, you are probably right but then that is what i have been saying all this while isn't, that religion is for the uneducated (layman)]

{ I am going to assume that you are not a mother smilies/wink.gif so i would understand for your inability to digest my example or should i write it like this so you will believe:-

6.111] And even if We had sent down to them the angels and the dead had spoken to them and We had brought together all things before them, they would not believe in the above example unless Allah pleases, but most of them are ignorant.
}

2. 3/4 of Malaysians think like five year olds.
I think you being generous here. smilies/wink.gif. There are more believers than non-believers like me... smilies/grin.gif

"Serious and true religions".... you are making me to laugh. Who decides which one is true and serious religion ? You ?... smilies/grin.gif

Every follower of religion believes his religion is serious and true.. How could everyone be right, there got to be someone in the wrong side right ? It should not make sense but then its religion so it doesn't have to make sense. Perhaps everyone was wrong in the first place. If you are talking about Islam then let me ask you some questions ?

You think Al-Arqam and Apin Followers were different than you ? You claim that those religions were false and not true but for the believers it was a serious and true religion, and it was Islam for them... Now being a non - follower, you claim the founders were liars because some Ulama (or UMNO) told you so. Will you denounce Islam today if some Ulama (or UMNO) declares that Islam in the form that you are following is illegal ?

5 years old child mentality, perhaps ?... smilies/grin.gif, I don't know but i will let you decide.

I know one Hindu samy who believes that the elephant form deity is actually god in that form but then through my research, i found out that the hindus shows their respect for elephant because the animal helped them alot during early civilization. The samy believes that the stories told to him were true and so do you my brother.

My brother, you like many of religionist, looses that logic mind of yours when it comes to religion. Religion was designed to be illogic so you will never use your logic mind. smilies/smiley.gif but all is not lost, you can start whenever you intend to.

Malaysian fighthing for Malaysia.
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written by Milo, December 28, 2008 22:01:04
tan_eng: ...you like many of religionist, looses that logic mind of yours when it comes to religion.
-----------------------------

That is true. Psychologists call this phenomenon "compartmentalization". These religious people can be highly functional and logical in other areas of their lives BUT when confronted with facts or indisputable proofs that contradict their religious beliefs, they will automatically put these facts into a compartment where "logic does not apply".
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written by Susanna, December 29, 2008 11:47:50
In the book of Samuel in the bible, God even allowed the people a king when they asked for a king although God himself is the sovereign ruler. Because that was what the Jews wanted even though Samuel spelt out the limitations and consequences of having a King. So if God can allow the majority of people to choose what they want, is PAS behaving like they know better than God? Surely God knows what needs to be done in time without people forcing through events on his behalf. Try serving mankind instead of ruling over people who voted for people who serve
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written by Milo, December 31, 2008 10:58:54
Pance,

Your view is another demonstration of religiously influenced naivety. Which religion or even which sane person will teach people to drink more alcohol or doesn't know that too much excesses in ANYTHING is bad? Just because your religion mentioned something that any sane person would know is bad (because it is so obvious)is suddenly taken to mean your religion knows ALL the truths of the universe! These are the types of fantastic claims on so mundane a statement that people question the quality of religious advice.

Let me ask you: Did your holy book teach you that brushing your teeth everyday would prevent tooth decay or you need balance diet to stay healthy? If not, do you do that everyday? why?

Learn the good points from your book for there are many, but don't surrender your common sense to it!
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written by CatV5, December 31, 2008 16:20:59
It's what religion is all about Milo.. shutting down the common sense and surrender to be manipulated... smilies/grin.gif

Here kitty-kitty... come eat this nice friskies... The box says it is healthy for you...
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written by Panca Indera, December 31, 2008 23:38:50
Hmmm

[23.14] Then We made the seed a clot, then We made the clot a lump of flesh, then We made (in) the lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, then We caused it to grow into another creation(baby), so blessed be Allah, the best of the creators.
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Only less than a 60 years ago science have finally managed to identify and describe the four stages of feotal development from Zygote to embryo to foetus to baby .
Which other holy book described this in detail?
1400 years ago an illiterate desert Arab by the name of Muhammad “spoke about about it and was written in a book”.

Who is shutting down common sense and surrender to be manipulated?”

Only a person who is ignorant or whose heart has been shut cannot see the logic of divine work

One of hundreds and thousands of miracles that occurs all the time but not noticed.

[7.54] Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods of time, and He is firm in power; He throws the veil of night over the day, which it pursues incessantly; and (He created) the sun and the moon and the stars, made subservient by His command; surely His is the creation and the command; blessed is Allah, the Lord of the worlds
[10.34] Say: Is there any one among your associates who can bring into existence the creation in the first instance, then reproduce it? Say: Allah brings the creation into existence, then He reproduces it; how are you then turned away?
[29.20] Say: Travel in the earth and see how He makes the first creation, then Allah creates the latter creation; surely Allah has power over all things.
[30.22] And one of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the diversity of your tongues and colors; most surely there are signs in this for the learned

[9.77] So He made hypocrisy to follow as a consequence into their hearts till the day when they shall meet Him because they failed to perform towards Allah what they had promised with Him and because they told lies.

[55.19] .He has made the two seas to flow freely (so that) they meet together:
Read about it on the link http://www.55a.net/eng/6.htm

.....And still you will not believe.

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written by Milo, January 01, 2009 01:39:58
[23.14] Then We made the seed a clot, then We made the clot a lump of flesh, then We made (in) the lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, then We caused it to grow into another creation(baby), so blessed be Allah, the best of the creators
---------------------

Ai ya... every matured boy or adult knows what is a clot of sperm cells and through observation can deduce that a baby is formed from small to big as the stomach ballooned, from no bone to with bones. You think those days the people or the doctors 1,400 years ago are so stupid mae? Even then, the describtion (if it did comes from God) is so, so crude in describing the process.
[30.22] And one of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the diversity of your tongues and colors; most surely there are signs in this for the learned
--------------------------------------------------------

Ai ya...again you must be kidding ...my children with today's knowledge can describe the relationship between the earth and the planets and the stars clearly and more accurately than...what was decribe God? It is not like the book gives a map of the Universe that is as detailed as those produced by astromers....and that would be impresive!

Sorry, the rest are just white noise.

You are too easily impressed. It is not like the book was describing the technology of TV or rocket or computer or a car that we can rely upon to make these gadgets. They don't even know much about how diseases are caused by the various germs and not due to God's punishment or how anti-biotics can be used to cure them. Neither do they know that vocanic activities are caused by a cooling planet. Can't blame you though, I have seen worst "evidence" of God being described.

Bye, got to prepare for stock analysis of the US market. Any tips from your book?
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written by Panca Indera, January 01, 2009 10:12:20
[9.24] Say: If your fathers and your sons and your brethren and your mates and your kinsfolk and property which you have acquired, and the slackness of trade which you fear and dwellings which you like, are dearer to you than Allah and His Apostle and striving in His way, then wait till Allah brings about His command: and Allah does not guide the transgressing people.
[2.275] Those who swallow down usury cannot arise except as one whom Shaitan has prostrated by (his) touch does rise. That is because they say, trading is only like usury; and Allah has allowed trading and forbidden usury. To whomsoever then the admonition has come from his Lord, then he desists, he shall have what has already passed, and his affair is in the hands of Allah; and whoever returns (to it)-- these arc the inmates of the fire; they shall abide in it.
[2.276] Allah does not bless usury, and He causes charitable deeds to prosper, and Allah does not love any ungrateful sinner.
[30.39] And whatever you lay out as usury, so that it may increase in the property of men, it shall not increase with Allah; and whatever you give in charity, desiring Allah's pleasure-- it is these (persons) that shall get manifold.

[4.161] And their taking usury though indeed they were forbidden it and their devouring the property of people falsely, and We have prepared for the unbelievers from among them a painful chastisement.

[9.55] Let not then their property and their children excite your admiration; Allah only wishes to chastise them with these in this world's life and (that) their souls may depart while they are unbelievers.

Now…
Look at the current global financial institutions and economic states based on Ungodly system of Riba(Banking and financing with Usury/Interests and compounding interests invented by the jews and forbidden by the Quran)

Millions have and willcontinue to lose their savings, jobs and dwellings because of a system based on greed, injustice, ignorance, arrogance and on rebellion to God’s commands.

"Still, they do not see or comprehend and believe…!"
Read on...
As big Western financial institutions have teetered one after the other in the crisis of recent weeks, another financial sector is gaining new confidence: Islamic banking.
Proponents of the ancient practice, which looks to sharia law for guidance and bans interest and trading in debt, have been promoting Islamic finance as a cure for the global financial meltdown…….
Link http://www.washingtonpost.com/...04434.html

>>>Ai ya...again you must be kidding ...my children with today's knowledge can describe the relationship between the earth and the planets and the stars clearly and more accurately than...what was decribe God?

How arrogance and ungrateful can a man be, just because he has not been touched by tragedy or punishment

Note: Dont' wait until the punishment touches you, because by then It may be too late

A short story

Two men travel on an aeroplane. One a pious believing person and the other an unbeliever.

The believer, sits quietly and pray and remembers God. The unbeliever just enjoys with his fun, drinks and merry making to past the time.

By God's Will, the plane crashed and both died, the believer and the unbeliever.

The believer meets his Maker in peace, but what about the unbeliever?

If truly there is no God, the unbeliever will eventually turned to dust.
But as luck has it He meets His Maker. Guess what will be his story or excuses for not obeying and following the command?....
Read the Quran smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/wink.gif smilies/cool.gif
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written by Milo, January 01, 2009 12:18:11
Panca, this debate can only be meaningful if it serves a useful purpose. So firstly, I want to sincerely acknowledge your good intention (to try convert and thus save non-believers) before I write anything further in reply. Secondly, I am not just writing for the sake ridicuing your statements. My purpose is to get more people to be rational thinker. Irrationality has caused much trouble in the world, including the unending wars and unthinking punishments metted out to people in the name of religion. Agree?

And please note: I know of Harun Yahya and his Atlas of Creation, his claims and how those misleading and fraudulent claims (of which many of yours seem to be taken from) have been ulterly debunked by scientists. Unfortunately, Harun distributed free-copy of this beautifully-bounded book to muslims worldwide, and this has mislead many muslims to falsely believed in the so called "scientific truths" in the book which are not.
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written by Milo, January 01, 2009 12:52:19
Panca: Look at the current global financial institutions and economic states based on Ungodly system of Riba(Banking and financing with Usury/Interests and compounding interests invented by the jews and forbidden by the Quran)
--------------------------------------------

The real cause of the current and the 1997 financial crisis are a combination of greed, ignorance and corruption (a by-product of greed) not interest/ursury. And mainstream religions are against greed and corruption, and some urge us to purify or open up our mind to dispel ignorance. Philosophers throughout the ages have also try to dispel human ignorance. Even assuming the Islamic non-interest fincnce method works better than the current method, it is only just a good method of finance invented by muslims, not necessary a final proof that it is the best method or only good method. Furthermore, it does not take away usefulness of the 'interest method' in all instances, even if muslim brand it as 'ungodly'. Even the non-riba method is dependent on knowledge of interest, ask any financial expert you will understand.

To get a better view, you can look at what caused the downfall of the great Islamic empires of the past. It was certainly not caused by the "interest" factor, which was not the practice, but caused by to lust for power and wealth (GREED & CORRUPTION) and the subduing of scientific research, whenever discovery are contrary to religious beliefs, they are forcefully removed (IGNORANCE).
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written by Milo, January 01, 2009 13:01:45
The believer, sits quietly and pray and remembers God. The unbeliever just enjoys with his fun, drinks and merry making to past the time. By God's Will, the plane crashed and both died, the believer and the unbeliever. The believer meets his Maker in peace, but what about the unbeliever?
-------------------------------------

1. Which God of which religion or denomination are you refering to? Zeus? Jesus? Krishna? Tian Kung? Islam? Christianity? Hinduism? Buddhism? or which of any of the thousands different schools that existed?

2. If I believe in God, and it turns out I am in the wrong religion or School, do I get to go to heaven?

3. Since you are a muslim, which Islamic School is the RIGHT school to qualify for entrance to heaven?

Awaiting your answer.
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written by Milo, January 01, 2009 13:24:00
If truly there is no God, the unbeliever will eventually turned to dust. But as luck has it He meets His Maker. Guess what will be his story or excuses for not obeying and following the command?....
------------------------------

This is call the Pascal's Wager: If there is no God, you have nothing to lose being a believer; however, if there is God, you stand to gain as a believer and lose if you are a non-believer.

PW is a false choice.

1. Those who believe based on the Pascal'S Wager are mere gambler, and thus fake believer. I am sure you know how your God treats fake believers.

2. I am sure if God exists, it is not in accordance as describe to the book. HE would likely be more appreciative of those who are rational and uses the thinking brain given to us by him to look at the evidence rather than those who are blind followers who are too lazy to think or have no courage to look for the truth.


This is what I believe:

I believe God, is not in the form described in man-made books. I believe he is the composite of everything we can observe in the universe and the laws we can test. I believe he don't micro-manage us, read our thoughts and punish us based on his wimps and fancies, but instead allows the law of cause and effect to do its job fairly, hence not requiring his intervention. I believe he allows us to use our brain and do not fault us not believing in anything that evidence has shown otherwise.

Over to you, friend.
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written by Panca Indera, January 01, 2009 16:22:42
Tthanks!
>>>So firstly, I want to sincerely acknowledge your good intention (to try convert and thus save non-believers)

My intention is never to try to convert anybody, let alone you.Nobody can convert anybody, if you think deeply. Only the self can do that through understanding and beliefs on the value system proposed.

My main purpose is to clear the misconception that people have on Islam and to counter any bad mouthing of It.

I do not judge a person by his status in society , colour of his skin or his beliefs, As Islam says “ to you your beliefs to me, my beliefs. I do not subscribe to yours, neither do you subscribe to mine.. And to each of us, we will be judged when we will face the same Universal Creator when we leave this world.

>>>Even assuming the Islamic non-interest finance method works better than the current method, it is only just a good method of finance invented by muslims, not necessary a final proof.

Prohibition of Usury is not invented by Muslims, but ordained by God. "Muslims" only work around it using the guideline.

>>>Furthermore, it does not take away usefulness of the 'interest method' in all instances…
No doubt there are similarities in non and financial banking Islamic systems that I personally don’t agree or subscribe and try to avoid.

>>To get a better view, you can look at what caused the downfall of the great Islamic empires of the past.

To the western educated and schooled they saw “Great Islamic Empires” of the past. To a informed and educated Muslims the world over, there is no such thing as “Islamic Empires”. They were Islamic states created and expanded through struggle against the forces of evil and unbelievers who schemed and plotted and lost.

The so Call Islamic “ Empires” were really Islamic caliphates that got corrupted later by worldly greed and ignorance. Even, most of the present forms of the Islamic states (caliphates) when studied carefully will be found to be not of the mold as practice by the Prophet.

Study the history Books you will find the true Muslims never ever started any fight or war, but they will fight to defend their rights to practice their religion as ordained by God. It is better to die fighting for freedom than to live under oppression as slaves and beggars ( that is what the Hamas are doing now, even though their struggle looks hopeless to the common eyes, they will succeed Inshallah)


Cont..
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written by Panca Indera, January 01, 2009 16:28:26
22.39] Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them;

>> I believe he(God) is the composite of everything we can observe in the universe and the laws we can test.

You are confining God to your own limitation, while I think God is way beyond the best of our own knowledge, comprehension or imagination, i.e. HE is beyond human limited description.

>>I believe he don't micro-manage us, read our thoughts and punish us based on his wimps and fancies,

I believe He is aware of everything and in control of everything in the whole universe even to the smallest sub-sub particles.

He gives and takes to whomever He wishes as His Grace and bounties are limitless. But guard against His wrath, for your disbeliefs , for the Master Creator did not create us, in vain but for us to acknowledge and submit to His stewardship

>>but instead allows the law of cause and effect to do its job fairly, hence not requiring his intervention.

Men and Jinns are given the “freedom” to choose on how to act, and God does not “intervene” to let men and jinns, think before they act. Otherwise how are we to be judge for our actions?

>>I believe he allows us to use our brain and do not fault us not believing in anything that evidence has shown otherwise.

Actually it’s the frontal lobes

The executive functions of the frontal lobes involve the ability to recognize future consequences resulting from current actions, to choose between good and bad actions (or better and best), override and suppress unacceptable social responses, and determine similarities and differences between things or events.
link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontal_lobe

And this what The Book said about the frontal lobes 100 years ago
11.56] Surely I rely on Allah, my Lord and your Lord; there is no living creature but He holds it by its forelock; surely my Lord is on the right path.
[55.41] The guilty shall be recognized by their marks, so they shall be seized by the forelocks and the feet.

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written by Panca Indera, January 01, 2009 16:30:50
oops! forelock in the Quran means the frontal lobes smilies/smiley.gif
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written by tan_eng, January 01, 2009 17:41:55
Hi Panca Indera,

Wow, its still continuing huh ? Good, i am excited too.

You seems to agree that if a religion shows some scientific evidence then it is God's word for sure. Hmmm.. nice.

If you want a better and more concrete scientific evidence then look in other cult (religions) that is older than Islam. smilies/wink.gif . There are plenty of them there and don't be suprised to find some that might not even exist in Islam.

Technically as one writer put it, Quran was not written by Prophet Muhammad himself but by somebody else few years later so you got to rethink about God's work.

Bad mouthing against Islam ? I don't think that is what i am doing here... If bad mouthing is all i want to do then i can easily find flaws in Islam and blow it out of proportion. Trust me, all religion is flawed so finding the flaws in any religion is no big deal.

What i am trying to do is to make Malaysian to understand that there is only one God and we are all the same for him irrespective of our believe and faith. Religion is nothing more than cult so malaysian should stop using religion,race and what not to divide us. We should all embrace humanity not religion.

One last thing Panca, just so you will understand why i call religion cults...

1. If Islam was given by GOD, why does it need to be defended ? You have Jihad, you have martyr and a lot of brutality in its teaching. Comparatively there are many other mainstream religion that people has accepted without those concepts.

2. Islam also seems to differentiate Muslim and Non-Muslims. Aren't we all the creations of the same God ? Islam tells you to suppress the Non-Muslims .. Why is that. The god is angry with the non-muslim ?

I can go on but i think i will end it here..

See ya,

Malaysia Fighthing For Malaysia.
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written by Milo, January 01, 2009 22:07:21
Panca, ok, I misread your intention, my bad. So I suppose I can assume you are just here to win arguements for Islam, right?

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written by Milo, January 01, 2009 22:08:01
My main purpose is to clear the misconception that people have on Islam and to counter any bad mouthing of It.
--------------------------------

Unfortunately, muslims also try to clear those PROVEN FACTS that are NOT misconceptions, and when others try to clear the real misconceptions hold by muslims, they will interprete that as "bad mouthing". Is it a surprise why we have holy wars - with two blinded sides each thinking their others are satan's forces and theirs is the only true version?

Seeing the load of unreasoned "white noise" coming your explanations, I should have known better than to reason with you. I am now more than convinced why the Islamic State concept must be resisted at all cost. With religiously blinded political leaders running the show, we will be in trouble sooner or later.
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written by Milo, January 01, 2009 22:17:20
Islamic Science for You

Creation of Earth
Modern scholars have criticized the bible for it's claim that the Earth was created in six days. This has been waved off as just another myth concocted by an ancient people to explain how the world was created. The Qur'an has made the same mistake regarding the amount of time needed to create the earth, as is seen in the following verse:

And verily We created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six Days, and naught of weariness touched Us. (Qur'an 50:3smilies/cool.gif

It is a known fact that Muhammad had contact with Jews and Christians, and much of the Qur'an is modeled after the Bible. While the Qur'an does not have the bible's claim that "on the seventh day God rested" (Genesis 2:2) it still proclaims the earth to be created in six days.

The Qur'an on Embryology
In 1982 Keith Moore, an anatomy professor at the University of Toronto, produced a textbook titled "The Developing Human, 3rd edition". In this book Moore states his astonishment at the way embryonic development is depicted in the Qur'an. Moore would go on to produce fourth and fifth editions of his textbook, as well as another book titled "Human Development as described in the Quran and Sunnah", all of which many Muslims cite with great pleasure. Moore and his Muslim supporters are referring to the following verse:

"We placed him as sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed; Then We made the sperm into a clot of blood; then of that blood clot We made a lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be God, the best to create! (Quran 23:13-14)"

The entire study of human life as mentioned in the Qur'an is not original at all. While Muslims try to claim that Muhammad made these statements before scientists discovered them, they are wrong. Theories of the formation of a child inside the womb was put forth by Aristotle nearly 1,000 years before the Qur'an was written. In fact Aristotle correctly described the function of the umbilical cord, something not mentioned in the Qur'an, showing that earlier philosophers were aware of such things mentioned by Muhammad and more. Every mention of human development in the Qur'an is similar to Roman and Greek theories. Consider the following verse referring to sperm:

He is created from a drop (of sperm) emitted-- Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs. (Qur'an 86:6-7)

Clearly this verse is incorrect, and clearly it has origins in earlier theories. First of all, for sperm to originate between the back and the ribs would mean that it comes from the kidneys! We now know that semen is produced in the testicles, but people in Muhammad's time did not know this.

Two will surfice for the moment.

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written by Milo, January 01, 2009 22:21:26
Narrated AbuHurayrah:
Allah's Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) said: "The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews."

A rational person can quickly realize the ridiculous nature of this Hadith. There is scientific error at so many levels. First, the idea of stones and trees talking is from the realm of fairy tales. In order for the stone or tree to talk, it would need a brain, lungs, the proper vocal cords, and an understanding of the language it is speaking. Equally disturbing is the claim that one of these trees, the Gharqad, will take sides with the Jews.

If the thought of trees and stones talking was not enough, the Qur'an mentions clouds that can speak. Allah said to the clouds "come willingly or unwillingly" and they said "we come willingly" (Qur'an 41:11). Most readers pass right by this verse, but many questions come up when analyzing it. At what point does water vapor become conscious? Is a water molecule alive? With two atoms of hydrogen, and one of oxygen, where is the brain or the orifice required for speech?

Need any more?
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written by Milo, January 01, 2009 22:26:54
Panca, you mentioned the mythical beings known in Islam as Jinn.

There are Muslims who believe that Jinn stand on top of each other's shoulders all the way up to heaven, and listen to what is being discussed. There is a Hadith narrated by Aisha (Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 93, Number 650) that says soothsayers and psychics receive some of their information from Jinn who stealthily acquire this info by listening to the discussions in heaven. The Qur'an says that the stars were created to defend heaven from such eavesdroppers (Qur'an 37:6-smilies/cool.gif, as well as saying that the stars are used as missiles (projectiles) to drive them away (Qur'an 67:5).

First of all, if Jinn can reach heaven by standing on the shoulders of one another, that means heaven is a given distance from earth. If this is true, then eventually we will be able to fly to heaven by space shuttle, or see it with a telescope. What is far worse in this theory is the thought that stars are used to throw at the Jinn. Stars are essentially stationary, but one can imagine how 7th century Arabs might have been in awe of the sights in the sky. This myth seems to confuse shooting stars with stars. The authors of the Qur'an and Hadiths probably thought stars and "shooting stars" were the same thing, when in reality they are not.

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written by Milo, January 01, 2009 22:31:21
The Qur'an states that Allah created the sky in layers. He created seven heavens, and decked the lowest heaven with lamps (Qur'an 67:3-5) and adorned it with the beauty of the stars (Qur'an 37:6). The Qur'an also states that the moon is within these seven heavens (Qur'an 71:15-16). If the stars (lamps) are in the lowest heaven, they are either closer to the earth than the moon, or are at an equal distance from the earth as the moon. Either way this is scientifically inaccurate. It is a known fact that the stars are much farther away than the moon.

Note: Superadmin, please feel free to delete these postings if they are deeemed offensive. I trust your judgement.
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written by tan_eng, January 02, 2009 13:13:48
Hi,

Got this from a friend of mine. thought it will give some insight why i call religion cults.

/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/

Christians:-

You know the Latin Catholic will not enter to Syrian catholic church,
these two will not enter to Marthoma church, these three will
not enter to Penthacost church, these four will not enter to Salvation army
church, these five will not enter to 7th day Adventist church,
these six will not enter to Orthodox church, these seven will not enter to Jacobite church .....................

Like this there are 146 castes in Kerala alone for Christianity, each will never
share their churches for Christians !

Wonderful One Christ, One Bible, One
Jehova....What a unity !

Among Muslims,

Shia and Sunni kill each other in all the Muslim
countries.The religious riot in Muslim countries is always between these two. The Shia will not go to Sunni mosque,these two will not go to
Ahamadiya mosque, these three will not go to Sufi mosque, these four will not go to Mujahiddin mosque....................

like this it appears there are 13 castes in among
Muslims, Killing / bombing/conquering/ massacring/... each other !

The American attack to the Muslim landof Iraqis
fully supported by all the Muslim countries surrounding Iraq !
One Allah, One Quran, One Prophet....! Great unity !

For Hindus 1280 books, 10,000 commentaries,
more than one lakh sub commentaries for these
foundation books,330 million gods,variety of aacharas, thousands of Rishies, hundreds of languages...

still everyone goes to the all the gods Temples ...
whether unity is for Hindus or in others and never
quarreled each other for the last ten
thousand years in the name of religion......

It is great !!!!!!

/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*

The above might not be very accurate in numbers but it should give you the overall picture. Can you see why religion needs to be taken out of our equation ? . It is a cult my brothers.

Malaysian fighting for Malaysia
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written by Panca Indera, January 02, 2009 14:11:13

>>Theories of the formation of a child inside the womb was put forth by Aristotle nearly 1,000 years before the Qur'an was written
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written by Panca Indera, January 02, 2009 14:12:09

Reproduce Aristotle theory then on the formation of a child inside the womb with the link and references and I will decide, if you are truthful!
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written by Panca Indera, January 02, 2009 14:33:18
>>If the thought of trees and stones talking was not enough, the Qur'an mentions clouds that can speak. Allah said to the clouds "come willingly or unwillingly" and they said "we come willingly" (Qur'an 41:11). >Most readers pass right by this verse, but many questions come up when analyzing it. At what point does water vapor become conscious? Is a water molecule alive? With two atoms of hydrogen, and one of oxygen, where is the brain or the orifice required for speech?
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written by Panca Indera, January 02, 2009 14:34:40
>>Most readers pass right by this verse, but many questions come up when analyzing it. At what point does water vapor become conscious? Is a water molecule alive? With two atoms of hydrogen, and one of oxygen, where is the brain or the orifice required for speech?
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written by Panca Indera, January 02, 2009 14:37:09
When you talk in your sleep is the other person in front of you?
When you dream in your sleep, the conversation that takes place, is it really taking place?

Define life or living?

The smallest of Atom, be it Iron, lead, Hydrogen, with the proton and neutron at the center and the electron orbiting , is it not alive?

Does not science proven that plants do respond to sound and lights?

Don’t limit Gods ability and Creation to the human limited ability to understand.
Have you not heard the expression,” the more you know the more you don’t know”
Do not judge or prejudge based on you limited knowledge.
Am I not talking to you without using my voice but by my fingers on the keyboards?
Talking is but a form of communication, but you do not understand that from the Quran perspective.
note: having trouble sending my reply as you can see smilies/sad.gif
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written by Panca Indera, January 02, 2009 14:40:09
The Quran was produced for all mankind , i.e. for every strata of society, from the lowest to the highest in term of intellect, intelligence and social standing .

The language, form and sentence structures were made as such even the simple minded can read, understand the basic concepts. If you have read the Quran and study the contents for A –Z you will find that the content of the Book consists of the followings:
1.Specific and detailed orders and commandments on how to behave, act, dressed and what you can consume as individual and in society
2.General rules, orders and commands on how to behave, act, dressed and what you can consume as individual and in society ( to give leeway depending on situation or conditions).
3.Historical accounts of events in the history of mankind from the very beginning to informed the readers to verify past events that were related by other sources like the Bible and the Torah.
4.Then there are advices, cautions, and warnings to the different groups of people, i.e . believers, unbelievers, hypocrites and idolators what to expect from their actions. Everybody is accountable for his/her actions, individually and collectively. Nobody will be excused, except for mentally unsound and children who have not attain maturity
5.Stories of the identity, functions and responsibility of His creations to satisfy the curiosity of most but also to trigger others to find out more about them.

Understand the basic first before attempting to understand the complicated.

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written by Panca Indera, January 02, 2009 15:13:24

I cannot speak for other religions but my own.

>>Shia and Sunni kill each other in all the Muslim countries
You are out to create mischief!
List me all the Muslim countries where they kill each other if you are truthful

>> The Shia will not go to Sunni mosque, these two will not go to ..

Another lie!
You must be blinded by your prejudice not to notice that the Greatest event in the Islamic calendar, the Haj, all denominations are together at one place praying together.

The American attack to the Muslim land of Iraqis fully supported by all the Muslim countries surrounding Iraq !

Making assumptions on misguided perceptions is bad enough, but making deliberate and cunning statements to create misunderstanding and divisions upon mankind is the work of the devil and his accomplishes.

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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 15:41:36
Okay: Since you ask

ABSTRACT:
Normal Human Embryonic Development
Travis Marsh
Medical Genetics
R. Ostrowski, PhD.
L. McNally M.S.
Summer Ventures in Science and Mathematics, 2004


Embryology is the study of the formation and early development of a living organism. The first paper on embryology was written by Aristotle in 384 B.C. Through his observation of chicken eggs, he formed theories of embryonic development. Preformation and epigenesis were the two ways that Aristotle theorized
that embryonic development could occur. Epigenesis was Aristotle’s theory that
young organisms develop from a formless mass of living material. According to this
theory, the development of the formless mass of living material into a human being
would occur by differentiation of cells into various body parts. Preformation postulated
that the female egg contained a homunculus, or a miniature human being. According the Aristotle’s theory, the only thing that would have to happen was for the sperm to fertilize the egg to start the development of this homunculus. Generations of scientists believed his theory and claimed that after all of these preformed people were developed, our race would end (Caparulo & London, 1980).

Two men, Wilhelm Roux and Hans Driesh, in the late nineteenth century formed their own ideas of embryonic development. Roux tried to prove Aristotle’s theory of preformation with his experiments and claimed that at the two cell stage the two halves of a individual had been formed. He killed one cell and hypothesized that he observed a developed half embryo out of the remaining cell. On the other hand, Driesh tried to disprove Aristotle’s theory and come up with his own. He did his experiments on sea urchins. Unlike Roux, he did not kill any cells but separated the two cell stage into two individual cells and allowed them to develop. Both cells developed into complete sea urchins. Modern scientists have found both men to be partially correct with their theories
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written by Panca Indera, January 02, 2009 15:42:34
>>The Qur'an states that Allah created the sky in layers. He created seven heavens, and decked the lowest heaven with lamps (Qur'an 67:3-5) and adorned it with the beauty of the stars (Qur'an 37:6).. It is a known fact that the stars are much farther away than the moon
It goes to show that your understanding of the above subject is minimal
Reference:
037.006
YUSUFALI: We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars,-
PICKTHAL: Lo! We have adorned the lowest heaven with an ornament, the planets;
SHAKIR: Surely We have adorned the nearest heaven with an adornment, the stars

On a clear cloudless night away from the city lights, look up the sky what do you see? Do you not see the moon and the planets and the stars if you are truthful?

>>The Qur'an also states that the moon is within these seven heavens (Qur'an 71:15-16). If the stars (lamps) are in the lowest heaven, they are either closer to the earth than the moon, or are at an equal distance from the earth as the moon. Either way this is scientifically inaccurate
You are using your limited understanding to assume that the Quran says the stars are in the lowest heaven and closer or equal distance to the moon by referring to the verses mentioned.
Lets look and understand the verses in question again.
. 071.015
YUSUFALI: "'See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another,
PICKTHAL: See ye not how Allah hath created seven heavens in harmony,
SHAKIR: Do you not see how Allah has created the seven heavens ,~ one above another,
071.016
YUSUFALI: "'And made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun as a (Glorious) Lamp?
PICKTHAL: And hath made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp?
SHAKIR: And made the moon therein a light, and made the sun a lamp?

1400 years ago the nearest men gets to see the stars and planets and moon was at the top of a mountain. The Quranic verses compliment what he saw then and makes complete sense to him with his limited knowledge.
But for you, my friend to deduce that the Quran states that moon is equidistance to the stars from the statement with present day knowledge, even your children will laugh at you
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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 15:44:58
You have avoided my questions: Repost

The believer, sits quietly and pray and remembers God. The unbeliever just enjoys with his fun, drinks and merry making to past the time. By God's Will, the plane crashed and both died, the believer and the unbeliever. The believer meets his Maker in peace, but what about the unbeliever?
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1. Which God of which religion or denomination are you refering to? Zeus? Jesus? Krishna? Tian Kung? Islam? Christianity? Hinduism? Buddhism? or which of any of the thousands different schools that existed?

2. If I believe in God, and it turns out I am in the wrong religion or School, do I get to go to heaven?

3. Since you are a muslim, which Islamic School is the RIGHT school to qualify for entrance to heaven?

Awaiting your answer.
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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 15:49:57
Don’t limit Gods ability and Creation to the human limited ability to understand.
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I do not claim to know God. But it is you who claim to know all of God's powers. If he is as unknowable as you cliam him to be, how come you know and others don't? You have special power or a direct e-mail linked to God? There are so many holy books and all basically make the same claims, so what make your claims so authentic? Any fools can quote from his "holy" book? What makes you so different? So proof it! Proof that your holy book is from God! Otherwise, retire.
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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 15:52:25
The smallest of Atom, be it Iron, lead, Hydrogen, with the proton and neutron at the center and the electron orbiting , is it not alive?
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mmm....if the atom is alive, will it go to heaven when it dies?
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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 15:57:00
Does not science proven that plants do respond to sound and lights?
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This is a natural phenomenon and can be clearly observed and explained. What you claimed are supernatural claims that cannot be falsified or proven.
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written by Panca Indera, January 02, 2009 15:58:10
>>Panca, you mentioned the mythical beings known in Islam as Jinn.

Do you know who the UFO's and the Aliens are and where there are from?

Or is it the figment of men's imagination

Most of the human body is made up of water, H2O, with cells consisting of 65-90% water by weight. Therefore, it isn't surprising that most of a human body's mass is oxygen. Carbon, the basic unit for organic molecules, comes in second. 99% of the mass of the human body is made up of just six elements: oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, calcium, and phosphorus.Ie. the same stuff found in different clays and compost
http://chemistry.about.com/cs/howthingswork/f/blbodyelements.htm

Jinn are created from the colorless(or is it from the orange part??can't remember) part of the flame just as man was created from earth
Just because you don't see them does not mean they are not there. All those food and fruit offering that you see, guess who are they for? smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif
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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 15:59:11
Lies??? You must be kidding.

http://www.indonesiamatters.com/1153/sunni-vs-shia/
Sunni vs Shia
March 15th, 2007, in News & Issues, by Patung

Hasyim Muzadi plans to cool the Sunni vs Shia conflict in Iraq.

Hasyim Muzadi, the leader of Nahdlatul Ulama, says he wants to be the mediator in the Sunni versus Shia bloodbath in Iraq. In Jakarta in early April 2007 Hasyim will lead a conference which seeks to find the best solution to the conflict, a conference which will include participants from many Muslim countries in the world.
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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 16:02:46

http://islam.about.com/cs/divi...sunni.htm

What's the Difference Between Shia and Sunni Muslims?

Both Sunni and Shia Muslims share the most fundamental Islamic beliefs and articles of faith. The differences between these two main sub-groups within Islam initially stemmed not from spiritual differences, but political ones. Over the centuries, however, these political differences have spawned a number of varying practices and positions which have come to carry a spiritual significance.

The division between Shia and Sunni dates back to the death of the Prophet Muhammad, and the question of who was to take over the leadership of the Muslim nation. Sunni Muslims agree with the position taken by many of the Prophet's companions, that the new leader should be elected from among those capable of the job. This is what was done, and the Prophet Muhammad's close friend and advisor, Abu Bakr, became the first Caliph of the Islamic nation. The word "Sunni" in Arabic comes from a word meaning "one who follows the traditions of the Prophet."

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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 16:11:57
Am I not talking to you without using my voice but by my fingers on the keyboards?
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No, we are not talking; we are posting in and reading MT. The verses quoted from the qu'ran IS about talking rocks, trees and clouds. And don't say God's words should be taken metaphorically since we have great trouble telling fundamentalist Muslims that what's mentioned in your book should not be taken literally. You cannot pick and choose, have your cake and eat it. Either your holy book should be read literally (in which case, trees, rocks and clouds can talk) or they are just metaphors NOT to be read literally.

If you change your mind and accept that the Qu'ran should not be read literally, then the case is close. We can accept.
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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 16:31:12
1. Ancient Views about Embryology

Garbha Upanishada in Sanskrit, supposed to have beeen written in 1416 B.C, correct in sequence of appearance of structure, incorrect in dates.
Hippocrates, considered the Father of Medicine made important contributions to Embryology in fifth century B.C.

Aristotle, considered the Father of Embryology wrote a treatise on
Embryology in fourth century B.C. His treatise contains the same
erroneous idea that the embryo developed from a formless mass as that in Garbha Upanishad.

Galen wrote a book entitled "On the Formation of the Foetus" in first century A.D.

2. Embryology in the Middle Ages

"It is, however cited in the ... the Quran .., that human beings are produced from a mixture of secretions from the male and the female. Several references are made to the creation of human being from a nufta (small drop). It is also stated that the resulting organism settles in the womb like a seed, six days after the beginning. (The human blastocyte begins to implant in the uterus about six days after fertilization.) Reference is also made to leech-like appearance of the early embryo. (The four week embryo shown looks like a leech or a bloodsucker.) The embryo is also said to resemble a "chewed substance." (The somites of older embryos somewhat resemble teethmarks in a chewed substance.) For more
information ...

Conclusion:

The Quranic view of development of a human embryo agrees very well with the Galenic view. Galen wrote his book in the first century A.D. and 600 years is more than adequate for this dominant view to diffuse to the middle east. Whether it did or not is not the issue and I doubt whether it is possible to assert one way or other. The point is simply this: are there any details in the Quran regarding human development which
could not have been known at that time? My tentative answer is no.

There are two things which need further investigation: one factoid "about 6 days" which Moore and the pamphlets refer to and a comment about "three veils of darkness."

-- Milind Saraph
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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 16:36:26
Alaqah
Allah says in the Qur'an about the stages of the creation of man: Man we did create from a quintessence (of clay); Then we placed as (a drop of) sperm (nutfah) in a place firmly fixed; Then we made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood (`alaqah); Then of that clot we made a (fetus) lump (mudghah); then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. (Qur'an 23:12-14).

The Arabic word `alaqah has three meanings. The first meaning is "leech". The second is "a suspended thing". The third meaning is "a blood clot".

Comments: Firstly, there are many different meanings given for the word alaqa, from blood clot to the pully hanging over a well! The claim that this word has a highly precise scientific meaning is laughable. There are many other problems with Prof. Moore's interpretation of the Qur'an. For example: if the Qur'an is giving us a highly detailed scientific account of human development, why does it only mention two of the stages, alaqa and mudghah? Dr. Moore lists 13 stages in the inside front cover of his book between fertilization and day 28, by which time the alaqa and mudghah are supposed to have taken place. Why does the Qur'an say nothing about these stages? The essence of this dilemma is that the more ambiguous the meanings of the Arabic terms, the more they lose their precision as scientific terms.

The Arabic word `alaqah has three meanings. The first meaning is "leech". The second is "a suspended thing". The third meaning is "a blood clot".

Apparently, it means whatever we want it to mean! In fact, Dr Torki goes so far as to say that alaqa is "a chain-like structure" - and then interprets this to mean a DNA double helix (B. Torki (1979), L'Islam Religion de la Science, p. 17smilies/cool.gif! If we apply Torki's meaning to the whole of sura 23:14 we find that God "... made you from a drop of sperm, then from that a gene code, then from that a little lump of flesh...." How ridiculous!

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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 16:39:17
"How could Muhammad (sallallahu `alaihi wa sallam) have possibly known that by himself? Professor Moore also studied the embryo at the mudghah (chewed-like substance) stage. He took a piece of raw clay and chewed it in his mouth, then compared it with a picture of the embryo at the mudghah stage. Professor Moore concluded that the embryo at the mudghah stage acquires the exact appearance of a chewed-like substance."
--------------------------------

Muhammad could easily have known these things because this was common knowledge long before Muhammad was born - and it is wrong. The Greek physician Galen (150 AD) believed that the embryo developed in four stages which are almost identical to those of the Qur'an.

"Let us divide the creation of the foetus overall into four periods of time. The first is that in which, as is seen both in abortions and in dissection, the form of the semen prevails (Arabic nutfah) ... But when it has been filled with blood (Arabic alaqa), and heart, brain and liver are still unarticulated and unshaped yet have by now a certain solidarity and considerable size, this is the second period; the substance of the foetus has the form of flesh and no longer the form of semen. The third period follows on this, when, as was said, it is possible to see the three ruling parts clearly and a kind of outline, a silhouette, as it were, of all the other parts (Arabic mudghah). You will see the conformation of the three ruling parts more clearly, that of the parts of the stomach more dimly, and much more still, that of the limbs. Later on they form "twigs", as Hippocrates expressed it, indicating by the term their similarity to branches. The fourth and final period is at the stage when all the parts in the limbs have been differentiated; and at this part Hippocrates the marvelous no longer calls the foetus an embryo only, but already a child, too when he says that it jerks and moves as an animal now fully formed" (Arabic "a new creation"). [Corpus Medicorum Graecorum: Galeni de Semine (Galen: On Semen) (Greek text with English trans. Phillip de Lacy, Akademic Verlag, 1992) section I:9:1-10 pp. 92-95]

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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 16:40:29
Lest the reader be in any doubt about the clear link described here between the Galenic and the Qur'anic stages, it may be pointed out that it was early Muslim doctors, including Ibn-Qayyim, who first spotted the similarity. Basim Musallam concludes

"The stages of development which the Qur'an and Hadith established for believers agreed perfectly with Galen's scientific account... There is no doubt that medieval thought appreciated this agreement between the Qur'an and Galen, for Arabic science employed the same Qur'anic terms to describe the Galenic stages". (B. Musallam (Cambridge, 1983) Sex and Society in Islam, p. 54)

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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 16:52:37
Panca Indera, I have as best as posting allows, tried to satisfy your request for proof of claims. There are tons more if needed. These 'proofs' are for the readers to judge, as no amount of proofs will be enough for a person of fixed views.

The purpose is just to show how fundamentalists will cling to false information and beliefs no matter what proofs were shown to them. Irrational thoughts will finally begets irrational actions. Even if it don't happen today or immediately, sooner or later, there is a risk this will happen.

That's why we oppose Hudud and the Islamic State concept. It is not because there are a total absense of "Goodness" and useful principles in these concepts, it is the absense of sensibility and rationality when confronted with truths that is frightening.

You have just given a demo of this type of mentality. Thanks!
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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 16:59:30
>>The Qur'an states that Allah created the sky in layers. He created seven heavens, and decked the lowest heaven with lamps (Qur'an 67:3-5) and adorned it with the beauty of the stars (Qur'an 37:6).. It is a known fact that the stars are much farther away than the moon
It goes to show that your understanding of the above subject is minimal
Reference:
037.006
YUSUFALI: We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars,-
PICKTHAL: Lo! We have adorned the lowest heaven with an ornament, the planets;
SHAKIR: Surely We have adorned the nearest heaven with an adornment, the stars
------------------------------

Oh yes, my knowledge is less than yours obviously. So I suppose you will only find planets in our solar system?

Latest news from Cosmology: Planet Found Orbiting Puffed-Up Star
posted: 01 December 2008

A planet outside of the solar system has been discovered orbiting a dying, puffed-up star called a red giant. The finding could help astronomers learn more about the fate of our solar system.

The newly discovered exoplanet is nearly six times the mass of Jupiter and orbits the red giant star HD 102272, which is located 1,200 light-years away in the constellation Leo. To date, about 20 red giants are known to support planets. The researchers suspect another world is orbiting farther out in the system. If confirmed, the system would be the first red giant star known to support more than one planet.

Small and medium-sized stars like our sun become red giants when they exhaust all of their hydrogen fuel near the end of their lives. The stars' cores contract and begin to burn helium, while their outer shells balloon up to 100 times their original size. When our sun does that, Earth and other planets will be vaporized.

The finding, which will be published in a forthcoming issue of the Astrophysical Journal, will shed light on how bloated stars interact with their resident planets. The new planet orbits closer than any other world to its red giant parent, orbiting just 0.6 astronomical units (AU) from the star. The researchers suggest this distance could be the limit, with no planets venturing in closer to a red giant.

"When red-giant stars expand, they tend to eat up the nearby planets," said researcher Alexander Wolszczan, an astrophysicist at Penn State. "There appears to be a zone of avoidance around such stars of about 0.6 astronomical units."

One astronomical unit is equal to the average distance between Earth and the sun. The researchers detected the planet with the Hobby-Eberly Telescope of McDonald Observatory in Texas. They used the radial velocity method, which involves measuring the slight wobbles of a star caused by the tug of an orbiting planet.

The host star is currently about 10 times the size of the sun, but it will eventually expand to up to 100 times the size of the sun. Since the star is a relatively young red giant, this mushrooming will probably not take place for another 100 million years, Wolszczan said. At that time, the star's outer shell will engulf this exoplanet.

"The planet finds itself orbiting, not in a vacuum anymore, but in gas that imposes a drag on the planet," Wolszczan told SPACE.com. "So its orbital energy gets lost to the surrounding atmosphere of the star through friction. And so [the planet] starts spiraling in."

While red giants vaporize those planets closest to them, they could thaw more distant worlds in their systems, creating new havens for life. This could happen in our own solar system when our sun begins its transition into a red giant in about 5 billion years, Wolszczan said.

Earth will likely be destroyed, but more distant — and currently frozen — worlds such as Jupiter's frozen moon Europa will survive and perhaps be bathed in sunlight as our star rapidly expands.

Europa "may become a very pleasant, nice ocean world," Wolszczan said. "There would still be more than a billion years of time for life to develop again somewhere else in the solar system, even though at this point it is not quite possible."


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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 17:02:20

Small Rocky Planet Found Orbiting Normal Star
posted: 25 January 2006
1:00 p.m. ET

Astronomers announced today the discovery of what is possibly the smallest planet known outside our solar system orbiting a normal star.

Its orbit is farther from its host star than Earth is from the Sun. Most known extrasolar planets reside inside the equivalent of Mercury's orbit.

The planet is estimated to be about 5.5 times as massive as Earth and thought to be rocky. It orbits a red dwarf star about 28,000 light-years away. Red dwarfs are about one-fifth as massive as the Sun and up to 50 times fainter. But they are among the most common stars in the universe
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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 17:04:04
Is is now established that planets circling stars are common occurance, some may even carry life.

So are these planets planted by Satan to confuse our poor little mind? Over to you.
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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 17:06:32
Stars are lamps? They are not SUNs? Very scientific indeed!
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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 17:15:41
Do you know who the UFO's and the Aliens are and where there are from?
------------------

So far no clear evidence they exists.
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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 17:19:56
YUSUFALI: "'See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another,
PICKTHAL: See ye not how Allah hath created seven heavens in harmony,
SHAKIR: Do you not see how Allah has created the seven heavens ,~ one above another,
-----------------

So the planets and the moon are in one of the heavens (lower heaven) created by God? Since we have landed on the moon and send robotic probes on Mars, can we conclude man has reached heaven through our means?
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written by Panca Indera, January 02, 2009 17:20:56
Favorite Question
1. If Islam was given by GOD, why does it need to be defended ?

God the Master and Creator the powerful and Wise definitely does not to be defended.

But men needs to defend God’s words in order to prove himself and show God he is the deserving person to be rewarded for his efforts to be at Allah’s side in the after life.

Analogy.
You are a father of three sons of who you have brought up equally, shown love to and brought up to be responsible.
How would you know if your children has grown into responsible and loving persons that you have hope for, or are you not concerned what they will turn out to be, especially if they become irresponsible and a nuisance to the society they live in?

Who would you invite to your home?
A son that stands up and defend you for the up bringing you gave, or the son who bad-mouthed and disobeyed you, make fun of your up- bringing and goes out to create mischief to society and cause division with family members.
How can you tell or know and judge which son is following, acting and showing his love for you unless you see his actions which are the reflection of himself

Know yourself and then you Know God or is it knows God then know yourself?

Ignore God at your own peril!
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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 17:22:46
1400 years ago the nearest men gets to see the stars and planets and moon was at the top of a mountain. The Quranic verses compliment what he saw then and makes complete sense to him with his limited knowledge.
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Exaltly! The qu'ran description of the stars, moon and sun is as what a human with limited knowledge would describe these items to be!
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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 17:26:08
Jinn are created from the colorless(or is it from the orange part??can't remember) part of the flame just as man was created from earth.
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I just said there is no evidence of their existence. So I don't know if they exist; but you do of course. Why? Because you know some secret I don't.
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written by Panca Indera, January 02, 2009 17:43:06

1. Which God of which religion or denomination are you refering to? Zeus? Jesus? Krishna? Tian Kung? Islam? Christianity? Hinduism? Buddhism? or which of any of the thousands different schools that existed?

Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
[1.1] All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.
[1.2] The Beneficent, the Merciful.
[1.3] Master of the Day of Judgment.
[1.4] Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help.
[1.5] Keep us on the right path.
[1.6] The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.

2. If I believe in God, and it turns out I am in the wrong religion or School, do I get to go to heaven?

If you truly believe in God and pray and do the good things He asked and avoid doing the sinful things that He prohibited He will guarantee you a place in heaven and he will show you what your differences were.

[23.53] But they cut off their religion among themselves into sects, each part rejoicing in that which is with them.
[6.159] Surely they who divided their religion into parts and became sects, you have no concern with them; their affair is only with Allah, then He will inform them of what they did

3. Since you are a muslim, which Islamic School is the RIGHT school to qualify for entrance to heaven?
[31.22] And whoever submits himself wholly to Allah and he is the doer of good (to others), he indeed has taken hold of the firmest thing upon which one can lay hold; and Allah's is the end of affairs.
[3.105] And be not like those who became divided and disagreed after clear arguments had come to them, and these it is that shall have a grievous chastisement.
[42.13] He has made plain to you of the religion what He enjoined upon Nuh and that which We have revealed to you and that which We enjoined upon Ibrahim and Musa and Isa that keep to obedience and be not divided therein; hard to the unbelievers is that which you call them to; Allah chooses for Himself whom He pleases, and guides to Himself him who turns (to Him), frequently.
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written by Panca Indera, January 02, 2009 17:56:47

mmm....if the atom is alive, will it go to heaven when it dies?

16.40] Our word for a thing when We intend it, is only that We say to it, Be, and it is.
28.88] And call not with Allah any other god; there is no god but He, every thing is perishable but He; His is the judgment, and to Him you shall be brought back.

Everything will be return to Him and He knows best! smilies/grin.gif
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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 18:15:21
White noise is all there is. You deserve your religion is all I can say. But please keep it to yourself and enjoy your illusions.
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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 18:20:27
Anyway, as the qu'ran has mentioned, the moon and the planets are in the lower heaven and human already have the technology to reach there. Soon we will have the technology to reach the upper heavens and perhaps God...so see you there.
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written by Panca Indera, January 02, 2009 18:21:29
This is a natural phenomenon and can be clearly observed and explained

So Who /what causes the natural phenomena to happen?
I suppose you believed that the Big Bang happen by itself too, a natural phenomena
Something that just happens by itself.
But if you said you believe in God as the Universal creator as you mentioned earlier on, but a not participative and interventionist God, How does this natural phenomena happened?
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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 18:41:47
So Who /what causes the natural phenomena to happen?
-----------------------

Natural means it just naturally happen...why must there be a cause? E=MC2 means the universe and the laws have always existed as it is, which includes the big bang, which could be just one of the many anomalies we know. If you say God did it, what proof? You holy text's quotations carry no meaning especially when we have just shown what a load of bull it contains and even some obviously copied materials. And the obvious questionn would be who created God? If you can say God has always existed, so why can't the endless space of universe be in the same position - has always existed the way it is in changing forms?
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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 18:47:56
....why must there be a SUPERNATURAL cause?
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written by Panca Indera, January 02, 2009 18:50:57
If he is as unknowable as you cliam him to be, how come you know and others don't?

I did not said God is Unknowable.read the sentence again and try to think deeply
Don’t limit Gods ability and Creation to the human limited ability to understand.

That the sentence says is, the human(created) mind will never be able to reach the same level of knowledge of the Creator. What we humans can do however is to think wisely using the tools that He provided to understand as much as at all possible within our own limitations.

You have special power or a direct e-mail linked to God?
I don't have special power.Are you agitated?
I'm sorry if I upset you

There are so many holy books and all basically make the same claims, so what make your claims so authentic?
If you have spend the last 30years of your life reading the different religious books
i.e. the Old and New Testaments,The Torah, The Quran, Hinduism, Buddhism and trying to understand them maybe you will understand.

Any fools can quote from his "holy" book? What makes you so different? So proof it!

You collect the bible from different periods and places and languages and then make comparison. you will never find the two the same.
You do the same with the Quran the words in Arabic never varies exactly 6666 verses in 114 chapters(the translation may vary)

Proof that your holy book is from God! Otherwise, retire.


For over 1400 years the Quran has remain unchanged, That is the proof of God's own Miracle. Subhanallah! smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif
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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 18:51:47
Other than quoting blindly from your text, you have show nothing of substance in your arguement. By the way, do you believe Israelites are the real people of God? The Torah says so.
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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 19:10:28
For over 1400 years the Quran has remain unchanged. That is the proof of God's own Miracle.
---------------------------

You are too simple minded for an educated person. Since dinasaurs' bones can survive till today, many quite well preserved, are these God's miracle too?

1. Anyway, your claim on the basis of the preservation is disputed by religious scholars. Some claimed, that there are less variations than say the bible, is because the muslims are smart enough to destroy or the other desputed copies. Apparently, some studies are underway to proof this point.

2, Unchanged does not equal to truth. The truth must be able to stand critical analysis on its own merits, which as shown here, the statements in the text have been shown on a balance of probablies that much of them does not make scientific sense at all.
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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 19:13:14
I don't have special power.Are you agitated?
I'm sorry if I upset you
----------------

No, I am not, still coolly replying you point by point. But you must be from the way you make threats of hell and brimestone fire for non-believers.
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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 19:25:01
I did not said God is Unknowable.read the sentence again and try to think deeply
Don’t limit Gods ability and Creation to the human limited ability to understand.
----------------------


I AM thinking deeply; unfortunately you are not.
That's the usual reply when the believers of a dogmatic religion cannot answer any question or are cornered or are shown to be misinformed on factual matters in a discussion. They go right back to the "Human cannot understand God with their limited knowledge" defence. Of course, these belivers can understand God perfectly because THEY have access to knowledge the rest cannot lay hands on.
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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 19:32:39
If you have spend the last 30years of your life reading the different religious books i.e. the Old and New Testaments,The Torah, The Quran, Hinduism, Buddhism and trying to understand them maybe you will understand.
----------------------------------

If that statement implies you have read all those holy texts, I must say your arguements so far have not demonstrated much unbias analysis ability. And you assume others have read less.
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written by Panca Indera, January 02, 2009 21:03:32
Natural means it just naturally happen...why must there be a cause?
You seems to have forgotten conveniently the very first law i.e. he law of cause and effect link http://globalvisions.org/cl/sw...cause.html I'm using a Buddhist link called cosmic link.its called Karma

SO when you said why must there be a cause, you have naturally denied the very reason of your own life.
Remember you will not be here if your parents had not joined together, unless you are of virgin birth, which I doubt.

You would not be talking/communicating/debating/arguing or whatever with me if I am not here to reply or answer you back.

So tell me , do you still believe that there is law on cause and effect ?

If that statement implies you have read all those holy texts, I must say your arguements so far have not demonstrated much unbias analysis ability. And you assume others have read less.

I thought you said you should read the statement at face value without forming ideas or implication. I was mearly making a statement offering you a solution you. Where on earth did make out that statement to mean something else.
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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 21:35:27
You seems to have forgotten conveniently the very first law i.e. he law of cause and effect link
-----------------------------------------

You are using natural 'law of cause and effect' principle and equating it to the 'first cause' belief. This is an incorrect equation. It is just like saying if I believe chickens lay eggs, I must also believe human lay eggs! It is a non-question. Some laws just exist naturally, some known and testable, while some are not! If you believe that must be a first cause (your version of God), it will automatically begs the question what cause the first cause (that is, who created God)? If yu claim he just exists and is timeless, it is the same position as what I put forward regarding the universe, it just exists and is timeless. Why need the extra step?
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written by Milo, January 02, 2009 21:39:50
I thought you said you should read the statement at face value without forming ideas or implication. I was mearly making a statement offering you a solution you. Where on earth did make out that statement to mean something else.
--------------------------------

Read carefully. I said "implies", which is based on the flow of your arguement. Whether, you actually meant that or not, it is for you to clarify. In any case, it does not make any sense for you to offer me such a solution if you yourself have not used that solution. Why would you ask others to read if you have not done so yourself?
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written by Panca Indera, January 02, 2009 23:24:07
By the way, do you believe Israelites are the real people of God? The Torah says so.
[62.6] Say: O you who are Jews, if you think that you are the favorites of Allah to the exclusion of other people, then invoke death If you are truthful.
2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
[4.160] Wherefore for the iniquity of those who are Jews did We disallow to them the good things which had been made lawful for them and for their hindering many (people) from Allah's way.
[5.82] Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists, and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave proudly
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written by tan_eng, January 02, 2009 23:52:39
I forgot to mention this just now under the Mosque argument...

Time running out for 'deviationist' sect [From Malaysiakini]
- Ahmadiyah denomination

This is happening even in Malaysia..... my brother.

It seems that mine comments are getting admin review first, is it just mine or is the topic is getting too hot to handle ? I thought only three of us were debating here.... The admin must be in hot soup if he/she decided to start to review our comments before posting.

Sorry dude, if you got into trouble, Panca Indera seems to be a group of people whom I could discuss the so called sensitive issues...

See ya,

Malaysian fighting for Malaysia.
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written by Panca Indera, January 03, 2009 00:01:05
>>Some laws just exist naturally, some known and testable, while some are not!

On one hand, you can accept laws that are not known and untestable saying it is happens naturally on the other hand you challenge the existence of God because you cannot accept his religion.

>>If you believe that must be a first cause (your version of God), it will automatically begs the question what cause the first cause (that is, who created God)?

You have reversed your position to justify your beliefs even though that beliefs contradict itself i.e. you can accept some laws exits naturally yet you cannot accept Allah existence naturally and questioned His existence.

112.1] Say: He, Allah, is One.
[112.2] Allah is He on Whom all depend.
[112.3] He begets not, nor is He begotten.
[112.4] And none is like Him.
87.2] Who creates, then makes complete,
[87.3] And Who makes (things) according to a measure, then guides (them to their goal),
103.1] I swear by the time,
[103.2] Most surely man is in loss,
[103.3] Except those who believe and do good, and enjoin on each other truth, and enjoin on each other patience.

If you claim he just exists and is timeless, it is the same position as what I put forward regarding the universe, it just exists and is timeless. Why need the extra step?.

The Theory that the universe just exist and timeless has been disproved by the Hubble bubble telescope that was able to measure the expansion of the universe. This in turn proved that the Universe started with a Big Bang.
The question You should asked who or what caused or started the Big Bang?

By the way Chicken do not lay eggs, its the hens that lay eggs and not the cock.


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written by Panca Indera, January 03, 2009 00:10:30
Sorry dude, if you got into trouble, Panca Indera seems to be a group of people whom I could discuss the so called sensitive issues...

Yes it would be regrettable if one cannot have a clean decent discussion or debate on religion.
It has been refreshing and I must say that i learned a few things too
thanks smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif smilies/smiley.gif
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written by tan_eng, January 03, 2009 00:14:07
Hmm ...

List of countries ?

1. Iraq (the obvious one isn't)
2. Iran (http://www.islamicweb.com/beli...l_iran.htm)

For your reference

1.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/sunni-vs-shia-the-real-bloody-battle-for-baghdad-778038.html
2.http://www.slate.com/id/2159936/
3.http://shia.islamicweb.com/

Haj Event ?

Panca Indera, i was talking about mosque not Haj. Probably the email writer should have written it like this.
[One Allah, One Quran, One Prophet and One Kaabah....!]

Calm down.... smilies/grin.gif . I did not ask you to justify Islam. I was merely asking you to be truthful to yourselves. Listen to our arguments (yours, mine and Milo's) and think rationally. You are in a mission to save Islam no matter what. That is justifying...

Justifying and Thinking Rationally is two different things. If you are justifying Islam then i would request you to reconsider as you might destroy the faith of other Muslims brothers. We don't want to do that do we .

Some people are best left alone in their belief in religion. These people might become loose cannons rather than good humans if we shake their belief system.

See ya,

Malaysian fighting for Malaysia.
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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 00:41:42
Panca,

Before I reply to your statements, let me say that even any cult believer can quote mindlessly from his holy book, which is what you are doing. All dogmatic believers quote extensivelybase on the assumption that their book is true and also because they cannot reason well in face of truths.
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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 00:55:11
On this question of mine: "By the way, do you believe Israelites are the real people of God? The Torah says so."

Your mindless quoting shows you don't get the point, do you? I am trying to show you that Muslims are not the only one with a holy book. The Jews are mindlessly quoting theirs to "prove" their God is the right God and yours are fake, the christians the same, and that's what you have been doing all day long.

That's why you have holy wars...everyone is fighting and dying for the true one and only God and the other side is satan forces. At the meantime, you know who gain? The people who supply weapons for the wars - and incidently, they probably don't believe in a God, but happily profiteering from the stupidity of both sides.

That's what happen when we become mindless followers of religion "defend" the religion. That's why irrationality and unreasoned beliefs must not be left unchallenge, especially when they attempt to move beyond private belief into the public domain. That's what the resistence against the Islamic State and hudud laws implementation are about.
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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 01:16:16
...you can accept some laws exists naturally yet you cannot accept Allah existence naturally and questioned His existence.
-----------------------------

Ignoring your mindless quoting from the book, I still find it rather amusing on your continuing erratic (one after another) opinion and shallow observation.

1. I can accept some laws existing naturally because I can observe them and some I read how scientists (and not ignoramus religionists) are able to demonstrate how these principles work.

2. You don't believe in the law of gravity or thermodynamics? Did you book describe any of these? Then why not throw away all the books, stop going to normal school and only study your holy book which contains everything.

3. Allah on the other hand is not provable. In fact, from the angle of probability based on all the available facts surrounding what's mentioned, it is more than likely he does not exist in the form describe.

4. Here is a supernatural being who would not hesitate to kill and destroy his creatures at his whimps, know the future and yet ridiculously can alter the future which he has in the first place already fixed it(destiny), and somehow enjoy being praised day and night by his believers. He is also all merciful (mind you, not mildly merciful, but ALL merciful!) but would send you to an everlansting hell to burn for eternity - just because you doubt his existence as there are no rational reasons nor evidence to believe he exists.

Are these good enough reasons? Oop! forgot your mind has been taken over by a book.
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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 01:51:07
The Theory that the universe just exist and timeless has been disproved by the Hubble bubble telescope that was able to measure the expansion of the universe. This in turn proved that the Universe started with a Big Bang.
The question You should asked who or what caused or started the Big Bang?
-----------------------------

My dear friend, read a little more to erase your limited knowledge.

1. The big bang is merely the start of space time, when a singularity expand (probably an anomaly)to form the present physical universe. Prof. Steven Hawkins, when asked what happened before the big bang, said, it is no point SPECULATING on what happened before that point, because we will probably never know. If the big bang was the beginning of time itself, then any discussion about what happened before the big bang, or what caused it in the usual sense of physical causation is simply meaningless. It does not mean time does not exist before the big bang, rather it was of no meaning for us.

2. In quantum physics, (scientists will tell you) something that "just happens" need not actually violate the laws of physics. The abrupt and uncaused appearance of something can occur within the scope of scientific law, once quantum laws have been taken into account. Nature apparently has the capacity for genuine spontaneity. In short, it need not have been a supernatural event.

3. From science info, we learned the essence of the Hartle-Hawking idea is that the big bang was not the abrupt switching on of time at some singular first moment, but the emergence of time from space in an ultrarapid but nevertheless continuous manner. On a human time scale, the big bang was very much a sudden, explosive origin of space, time, and matter. But look very, very closely at that first tiny fraction of a second and you find that there was no precise and sudden beginning at all. So here we have a theory of the origin of the universe that seems to say two contradictory things: First, time did not always exist; and second, there was no first moment of time. Such are the oddities of quantum physics.

Science do not know everything of the cosmo yet (and is honest about it), and probably there will be things science will never know. But just because science is not able to know, it is a hugh leap of imagination to say "God did it!" to fill the gap. This is what religion tried to do, out of thin air.

Be religious by all means, but keep your beliefs and practices private with your God. No Islamic State; just Islam for muslims and vice versa for others... peace there will be.



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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 02:06:39
By the way Chicken do not lay eggs, its the hens that lay eggs and not the cock.
----------------------------

Very smart observation....so if I say humans can procreate, I am also wrong. Anyway, what is the rationale of believing cock cannot lay eggs, when you believe stars are made to be used as projectiles against jinns to defend heavens and clouds, trees and stones can talk? Or (to quote your earlier statement)are you trying to limit the powers of God with your restricted knowledge?
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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 10:38:57
Creating life on earth
http://www.sciencedaily.com/re...13634.htm

ScienceDaily (Dec. 23, 200smilies/cool.gif — With the aid of a straightforward experiment, researchers have provided some clues to one of biology's most complex questions: how ancient organic molecules came together to form the basis of life.

Specifically, this study demonstrated how ancient RNA joined together to reach a biologically relevant length.

RNA, the single-stranded precursor to DNA, normally expands one nucleic base at a time, growing sequentially like a linked chain. The problem is that in the primordial world RNA molecules didn't have enzymes to catalyze this reaction, and while RNA growth can proceed naturally, the rate would be so slow the RNA could never get more than a few pieces long (for as nucleic bases attach to one end, they can also drop off the other).

Ernesto Di Mauro and colleagues examined if there was some mechanism to overcome this thermodynamic barrier, by incubating short RNA fragments in water of different temperatures and pH.

They found that under favorable conditions (acidic environment and temperature lower than 70 degrees Celsius), pieces ranging from 10-24 in length could naturally fuse into larger fragments, generally within 14 hours.

The RNA fragments came together as double-stranded structures then joined at the ends. The fragments did not have to be the same size, but the efficiency of the reactions was dependent on fragment size (larger is better, though efficiency drops again after reaching around 100) and the similarity of the fragment sequences.

The researchers note that this spontaneous fusing, or ligation, would a simple way for RNA to overcome initial barriers to growth and reach a biologically important size; at around 100 bases long, RNA molecules can begin to fold into functional, 3D shapes.

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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 11:07:13
Panca Indera, You seems to believe in the Big Bang Theory. In that case, how come God created the earth first and then the heavens? Over to you.

Al Qur’an 041.009-011
Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds.

He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;

Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient.
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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 11:28:23
Panca Indera, can you explain to us how come the earth according to your book is flat?

Al Qur’an 015.019
And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon mountains firm and immovable; and produced therein all kinds of things in due balance.

Al Qu’ran 020.053
"He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels); and has sent down water from the sky." With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others.

Al Qur’an 050.007
And the earth- We have spread it out, and set thereon mountains standing firm, and produced therein every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs)-

Al Qur’an 018.047
One Day We shall remove the mountains, and thou wilt see the earth as a level stretch, and We shall gather them, all together, nor shall We leave out any one of them.

Comments: In the last verse above, the book actually emphasizes how much flatter the earth would be were it not for the mountains that disrupt the view. Please comment on it scientifically.
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written by Panca Indera, January 03, 2009 12:25:51
Ref http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E...the_Qur'an
(Sura 3:7[1]
He it is who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book : others are allegorical . But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Read the above carefully and think about it! Let me repeat
"But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except God and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge."

Now,You can accept "natural laws"blindly without reason or explanation i.e.
>>Natural means it just naturally happen...why must there be a cause? E=MC2 means the universe and the laws have always existed as it isa, which includes the big bang, which could be just one of the many anomalies we know
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written by Panca Indera, January 03, 2009 12:29:38
cont....
meaning of An anomaly: any occurrence or object that is strange, unusual, or unique. It can also mean a discrepancy or deviation from an established rule..

Yet you are unable to accept the existence of ALLAH because it is strange, unusual and unigue Who created everything else.

You accused me of shallow thinking, fair enough!

But for a thinking man like you who can accept strange anomalies , but unable to accept the creator of all anomalies....

Again,". The big bang is merely the start of space time, when a singularity expand (probably an anomaly)to form the present physical universe.

Why can't you accept that it is ALLAH the Majestic and all powerful Who started it all,

Even Steven Hawking admitted that the chances, or law of probability everything that happens in the Universe from the big Bang to present day happen exactly as they are.If they were not, not even for nano of a second longer or shorter the present world that weknow of will not have existed or support life as we know it

[13.2] Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that you see, and He is firm in power and He made the sun and the moon subservient (to you); each one pursues its course to an appointed time; He regulates the affair, making clear the signs that you may be certain of meeting your Lord.
# [30.12] And at the time when the hour shall come the guilty shall be in despair.
# [30.14] And at the time when the hour shall come, at that time they shall become separated one from the other.
35.13] He causes the night to enter in upon the day, and He causes the day to enter in upon the night, and He has made subservient (to you) the sun and the moon; each one follows its course to an appointed time; this is Allah, your Lord, His is the kingdom; and those whom you call upon besides Him do not control a straw.

Strange how you can have blnd faith in anomalies yet unable to accept the Ultimate Anomaly with is ALLAH the Most Gracious and Most Merciful
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written by Panca Indera, January 03, 2009 12:41:59
>>ScienceDaily (Dec. 23, 200smilies/cool.gif — With the aid of a straightforward experiment, researchers have provided some clues to one of biology's most complex questions: how ancient organic molecules came together to form the basis of life.

Yes only now, man is able to partially replicate what the AlMighty Created by commanding, "Be! and it is"
[16.40] Our word for a thing when We intend it, is only that We say to it, Be, and it is.

The soul or spirit of man comes from ALLAH, how ungrateful is he to forget where he comes from.But not to worry, to Allah shall all things return, And you will be judge for your actions.
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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 13:13:37
Why can't you accept that it is ALLAH the Majestic and all powerful Who started it all,
---------------------------------

The simple answer is "Zero Proof" of his existence and plenty of proofs that what's mentioned in your book just primitive assumptions that have been proven wrong time and again. All you are able to produce so far are "claims, claims & more claims". Any fool can do that. So, no to Islamic state, no to hudud.
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written by Panca Indera, January 03, 2009 13:14:27
Panca Indera, can you explain to us how come the earth according to your book is flat?

Look out the window or climb a mountain. What do your eyes tell you?
Do you see the earth around or do you see it flat if you are truthful.
forget about you have learned in school or saw on the earth on tv.

>>Al Qur’an 018.047
One Day We shall remove the mountains, and thou wilt see the earth as a level stretch, and We shall gather them, all together, nor shall We leave out any one of them.


How many hills and mountains had been flatten by earth movers in the quest of minerals?
Remember that volcanic mountain that was blown to bits in Washington state some time back. So whats the big deal if the Creator wants to flatten the earth, if He Created the whole universe and its contents(including you n me). think!

>>Comments: In the last verse above, the book actually emphasizes how much flatter the earth would be were it not for the mountains that disrupt the view. Please comment on it scientifically.


Science is not the end of all or the be all. Science is a branch of learning no more no less dependent on the power of observation by our five senses.
You take any of the senses away you are handicapped. True?
Still most people are handicapped because their hearts are blinded not by their five senses but by that frontal lobes that I mentioned earlier.
Replay: The frontal lobes involve the ability to recognize future consequences resulting from current actions, to choose between good and bad actions (or better and best), override and suppress unacceptable social responses, and determine similarities and differences between things or events.
The frontal lobe contains most of the dopamine-sensitive neurons in the cerebral cortex. The dopamine system is associated with reward, attention, long-term memory, planning, and drive. Dopamine tends to limit and select sensory information arriving from the thalamus to the fore-brain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontal_lobe

You see what you want to believe and believe what you want to see, no

But if you are truthful and wants to see the real truth, then Allah will guide you
(Sura 3:7) smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/cool.gif
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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 13:23:10
Yes only now, man is able to partially replicate what the AlMighty Created by commanding, "Be! and it is"
[16.40] Our word for a thing when We intend it, is only that We say to it, Be, and it is.
--------------------------

See I meant! hahaha...(cannot help laughing, sorry). Claims and more claims! Not an iota of proof can be produced thus far. Show us the proof like what the scientists have! Ask your God to create just ONE miracle that can be seen, and all will be converted. Not even one tiny bit of evidence? How come? And you expect to convert intelligent people with threats of punishment?
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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 13:27:03
The soul or spirit of man comes from ALLAH, how ungrateful is he to forget where he comes from.But not to worry, to Allah shall all things return, And you will be judge for your actions.
----------------------------

Heard this sort of threats in practically every religion, especially the monotheist ones. Threats and more threats, that's the way to go.
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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 13:28:57
More Islamic Science for you

Islamists claim the Quran’s ‘creation in pairs’ verses, especially 36:36 refers to our modern understanding of matter antimatter complements. Some critics respond by highlighting the relative paucity of antimatter compared to matter, particularly as most antimatter was destroyed in the first second after the Big Bang. http://www.answer-islam.org/earth_in_islam.htm

Nevertheless, some Islamist might claim that the mere fact that antimatter exists proves the Quranic ‘creation in pairs’ verses to be miraculous as how could a seventh century bandit know about matter antimatter?

Unfortunately for the Islamist polemicists, the ancient Chinese already believed in the duality of all creation. This duality principle is known as ‘Yin and Yang’, part of the Taoist belief system. The date of origin of the Yin-Yang duality principle is unknown, however all reasonable estimates predate Islam by at least two thousand five hundred years. {Note the Yin-Yang symbol dates back to at least 400BC and was present in ancient Shang Dynasty Bronze but the Yin-Yang principle dated much earlier.}

The Yellow Emperor, legendary Chinese emperor and cultural hero ruling from 2698 BC to 2598 BC and considered to be the ancestor of the Han Chinese, said “The principle of Ying and Yang is the foundation of the entire universe. It underlies everything in creation. It brings about the development of parenthood; it is the root and source of life and death…
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written by Panca Indera, January 03, 2009 13:29:18
>>IT is now established that planets circling stars are common occurance, some may even carry life.

So what if they carry life. READ!!!
[1.1] All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.

>>So are these planets planted by Satan to confuse our poor little mind? Over to you.

Satan can only beguile people with weak mind and weak faith. This was what Iblis said
[38.82] He said: Then by Thy Might I will surely make them live an evil life, all,
[38.83] Except Thy servants from among them, the purified ones.

Me confused! NEVER!


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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 13:33:54
Al Qur’an 003.027
"Thou causest the night to gain on the day, and thou causest the day to gain on the night; Thou bringest the Living out of the dead, and Thou bringest the dead out of the Living; and Thou givest sustenance to whom Thou pleasest, without measure."

Al Qur’an 003.190
Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day,- there are indeed Signs for men of understanding,

Al Qur’an 013.003
He draweth the night as a veil o'er the Day. Behold, verily in these things there are signs for those who consider!

Al Qur’an 022.061
That is because Allah merges night into day, and He merges day into night, and verily it is Allah Who hears and sees (all things).

----------------

Comments: Day and night are clearly entities independent from the sun, moon or any other celestial objects. Even when considered in the same verse, night and day are independent of the sun, with no recognition that the sun causes either of them.

The fact that the authors of the Qur’an did not realize that the sun and moon actually cause eclipses (as opposed to simply experiencing them) is similar to their failure to realize that the sun actually causes day and night. In the Qur’an, night is not simply the absence of day. Night and day are each specific, tangible creations of Allah, and they engage in a form of balanced conflict independent of the celestial bodies.
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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 13:45:53
Al Qur’an 007.041
For them there is Hell, as a couch (below) and folds and folds of covering above: such is Our requital of those who do wrong.

Al Qur’an 009.049
Among them is (many) a man who says: "Grant me exemption and draw me not into trial." Have they not fallen into trial already? and indeed Hell surrounds the Unbelievers (on all sides).

Al Qur’an 052.013
That Day shall they be thrust down to the Fire of Hell, irresistibly.

---------------------------------------

It is like this God of yours is obssesed with punishment and threats of hell. Can this be an ALL merciful being? No wonder you see so much cruelty in Islamic punishments.

Al Qur'an 037.054-055
(A voice) said: "Would ye like to look down?" He looked down and saw him in the midst of the Fire.
----------------

And where is Hell located? According to the verses..it is Down! Likely in the centre of the earth's core. I suppose if we drill deep enough we can reach hell, just as we have now landed man in the lower heavens (the moon) and has sent several probes to Mars.
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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 13:58:44
Strange how you can have blnd faith in anomalies yet unable to accept the Ultimate Anomaly with is ALLAH the Most Gracious and Most Merciful.
-------------------

Anomalies happen all the time. It is part of the "unexplanable" natural course of things, which may be made explanable in the future. I believe it because they can be observed in nature. They may be considered "accidents", say cancer development in a normal person. Or, like when I bit my own lip, but have no idea why I did it.
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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 14:08:00
Yet you are unable to accept the existence of ALLAH because it is strange, unusual and unigue Who created everything else.
--------------------------------

No, I can't believe it not because it is strange and unusual. the formation of the universe is very unusual but I believe it because there are evidence. Scientists don't just DEMAND that you believe in their theory, they provide evidence that are falsifiable (Capable of being tested (verified or falsified) by experiment or observation). I am open to your religion and all others - just need some sensible evidence, that's all. None so far, only claims and more claims of God says this and says that. So how to believe?

No evidence = blind faith = conversion to any religion who approach you with a book that and claim of "God said it"

Got it!
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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 14:14:30
So no Hudud, because it is a "blind" law, not open to reason, cannot be challenged and thus can be abused, sometimes without the the abuser even knowing that he is abusing it. If the actions are challenged, guess what, the abuser will make the ultimate justification "IT IS GOD's LAW!" And the end of discussion!
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written by Panca Indera, January 03, 2009 14:21:46
>>]Panca Indera, You seems to believe in the Big Bang Theory. In that case, how come God created the earth first and then the heavens? Over to you.
Yes I believe in the Big Bang as it is does not contradict the Quran nor some other Holy books.
If you read carefully the verses again, God did not said the two periods of earth creation was at the beginning, middle or the end of the sis periods. Its man limited thinking that deduced that.


[25.59] Who created the heavens and the earth and what is between them in six periods,

According to science the age of the universe is the time elapsed between the Big Bang and the present day. Current theory and observations suggest that this is between 13.6 and 13.8 billion years http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_universe
But Allah knows Best!

If we divide hat by the six periods than one period is equal to 2.28 billion years

41.9] Say: What! do you indeed disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two periods, and do you set up equals with Him? That is the Lord of the Worlds.

Using simple arithmetic, the age of the earth is 4.56 billon years i.e. two periods

Guess what science today says about the it: Modern geologists and geophysicists consider the age of the Earth to be around 4.54 billion years (4.54 × 109 years).[1][2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_Earth But Allah knows Best!


[41.10] And He made in it mountains above its surface, and He blessed therein and made therein its foods, in four periods: alike for the seekers.

Mountains were made later after the earth , common sense will tell you. Therefore the four periods mentioned is not the same amount in a period as the formation of the heavens and earth..
And as I quoted earlier from the Quran, Allah said a day is equal to 50,000 years or 1000 years as He controlled time. So unless and until we have sufficient knowledge, we accept the four periods to mean as four unit of times that only He knew.
And Allah knows Best!

[41.11] Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth: Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said: We come willingly.

This is an accepted part of the big bang theory. i.e. that before the starts and planets were formed after the big bang it was like smoke.

[41.12] So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing. But Allah knows Best!


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written by Panca Indera, January 03, 2009 14:48:54
Ask your God to create just ONE miracle that can be seen, and all will be converted. Not even one tiny bit of evidence? How come? And you expect to convert intelligent people with threats of punishment?

I don’t need to ask my God to create any miracle as I have believed.

Using your own statements, quote” Natural means it just naturally happen...why must there be a cause?”
Is it not the same as miracle?
The Miracles(natural Laws) are there for all to “SEE” but only a few ”look”for it.

[54.2] And if they see a miracle they turn aside and say: Transient magic.
[43.30] And when there came to them the truth they said: This is magic, and surely we are disbelievers in it
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written by Panca Indera, January 03, 2009 14:58:38
Anomalies happen all the time. It is part of the "unexplanable" natural course of things, which may be made explanable in the future.

Two hundred years ago people wonder how birds fly and try to imitate but failed.
Now millions of people fly in big metals birds all over the world.
and the miracle is the properties of air over different shape of surfaces.
Science have studied and experimented and understood these properties.> Behavior of air pressures

The miracle is why must the air behave exactly like that?
It is because, Allah commanded it,"Be! and it is" and that the natural law and miracle which can never be explained.


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written by Panca Indera, January 03, 2009 15:19:01
. The date of origin of the Yin-Yang duality principle is unknown, however all reasonable estimates predate Islam by ……......
The Yellow Emperor, legendary Chinese emperor and cultural hero ruling from 2698 BC to 2598 BC and considered to be the ancestor of the Han Chinese………...


Islam predated China and India and everything else
All Muslim believes in Allah and He created everything that submitted willing or unwillingly.

Adam, the first man submitted to Allah Eve the first woman submitted to Alla and were Muslims
Noh and his people who survived the flood submitted to Allah
Believing Hans submitted to Allah
All believers past, present and future submit to the Will of Allah

So the Yellow Emperor is nothing but dust and bones awaiting to answer for his actions just like the rest of us when the time comes

Do you not learn to submit to the Will of Allah?
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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 15:29:40
I don’t need to ask my God to create any miracle as I have believed.
-----------------------------

Proved my point. The supernatural is not possible...belongs to myths.
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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 15:34:23
If you read carefully the verses again, God did not said the two periods of earth creation was at the beginning, middle or the end of the sis periods. Its man limited thinking that deduced that.
-----------------------

Still the same stuff, talking in riddles that could mean anything...he could have said 10 periods or even 20 period, and it could still be explained in the same way you did. The idea is to be precise in describtion like what science did, and not going round and round like a merry-go-round.
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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 15:37:12
All Muslim believes in Allah and He created everything that submitted willing or unwillingly.
--------------------------

mmm...Then PAS vs UMNO and Sunni v Shia fighting must be destined by God, since he created everything including the problems of the world.
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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 15:41:16
Adam, the first man submitted to Allah Eve the first woman submitted to Alla and were Muslims.
--------------------

If the first man and women are Adam and Eve, and they are the starting point of the human race, then Islam must necessarily believe in incest when they procreate. Now perhaps that answers why are so much incest in your community.
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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 15:44:06
So the Yellow Emperor is nothing but dust and bones awaiting to answer for his actions just like the rest of us when the time comes.
------------------

You are misinformed. Actually, he reported to Tian Kung (the Chinese Heavenly King who created everything) after he died and is now a General leading in the Heavenly army.
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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 15:47:10
All believers past, present and future submit to the Will of Allah
----------------------------

And all past, present and future believers of Tian Kung submit to the will of Mao Tze Tung. The books say so.
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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 15:49:03
Two hundred years ago people wonder how birds fly and try to imitate but failed. Now millions of people fly in big metals birds all over the world. and the miracle is the properties of air over different shape of surfaces. Science have studied and experimented and understood these properties.> Behavior of air pressures.
---------------------

Exaltly! That's why I believe in Science...if not we will all be riding camels if we follow the book.
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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 15:51:48
Do you not learn to submit to the Will of Allah?
----------------------------

How to submit to an entity that does not exists? Until the evidence arrived, I will submit to PRK which exists - guaranteed! And they can get things done.
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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 15:56:37
Islam predated China and India and everything else.
----------------------------------

That what all the religions of the world claimed...and like you, the fanatics are willing to die to prove their point.

Believe what you want, but keep it out of the public square where there are other beliefs. In case your religion does not teach you, this is call respect for others' beliefs!
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written by tan_eng, January 03, 2009 16:20:43
Hello Guys...

Still sloughing it out huh .... Cool.... smilies/grin.gif . You know what we should have public debate so it would be nice to see everyone's facial expresssions.... hehehehe.

Now, it seems this whole thing seems to be going out of rationality... so i would like to suggest something here... hope you guys would agree with me. Let me warn you guys forehand that most likely you might change your believes if you participate. smilies/grin.gif (Its not advisable for someone with weak faith smilies/smiley.gif)

If we were to have meaningful conclusions in this debate then we have to debate one question at a time. Nothing more than that.

Let us take turn to pose one question at a time to each other and we will debate it for 72hours, then we will move to the next one. This way it would be easier to comprehend each other's opinion. All comments has to only refer to the question posed and not relating to anything else.

Can we do that guys ?

See ya ,

Malaysian fighting for Malaysia.


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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 17:12:27
tan-eng, haha, in deed it has been fun thus far.

I am for your suggestion - it will be both fun and a good platform to help unveil the truth, if not to the party with the flawed belief, it will be so for the audience who are reading.

How about Panca Indera? Game?
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written by Panca Indera, January 03, 2009 21:31:38
Well after three days and countless writing it has come to a point that we should summarized don’tyou think!

These are the points that are raised basically by the Milo.(see if we can agree)

1.the words of the Quran are NOT words of Allah but written by men lead by Muhammad(PBUH)
2.The stories and teachings are made up by men based on knowledge and information obtained from other people and religions.
3.Muslims who obey and follow the teaching of Islam and the Book are people who are fundamentalist, uneducated, illogical, naïve, too easily impressed , dogmatic etc.etc(I am using your exact words)

This is what Milo beliefs:

1.I believe God, is not in the form described in man-made books. I believe he is the composite of everything we can observe in the universe and the laws we can test. I believe he don't micro-manage us, read our thoughts and punish us based on his wimps and fancies, but instead allows the law of cause and effect to do its job fairly, hence not requiring his intervention. I believe he allows us to use our brain and do not fault us not believing in anything that evidence has shown otherwise.
2. Some laws just exist naturally, some known and testable, while some are not!
For e.g the Big Bang can happen without any cause and use be accepted as a natural event of mysterious nature(happened by itself)

These are the points that are raised basically by Panca Indera.
1.The Quran contains the Words of God and NOT men
2.All the stories and teaching are true and to be obeyed
3.People who submit and obey all the teachings are true believers.

This is what Panca Indera’s beliefs:
God is ever present and aware of all things in the universe. Disbelievers will be send to hell for transgression and acting beyond the permissible limits. Man will never fully comprehend God’s Works. If one can accept some laws exists naturally without question of proof then one should be able to accept Allah existence naturally and not questioned His existence especially when using the law of cause and effect
For e.g How can the Big Bang can happen without any cause> illogical based on Karma and Ying and Yang

Note: Sure I am game for continuation like you said ,point for point. But it will take longer time as you and I have to work for a living. smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif
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written by tan_eng, January 03, 2009 22:03:26
Hi Guys,

Cool so everyone agrees. I realise that all of us have to work for a living , thats why i suggested 72 hours (3 Days). You know i would really like a face to face debate rather than writing here... but then thats just me.. smilies/grin.gif

Can we agree on 72 hours Panca Indera ? Who want to ask the first question ? Shall i start it off ?

******************************************************* ***************************
Points to Note In You Summary

1. "Muslims are fundamentalist, uneducated, illogical and so on "
YOU DON'T GET IT DO YOU ?. Its not only the Muslims but Christians, Hindus,
Buddhist and everyone else who follows religion blindly can be classified into
that category. We are referring only to Islam in this debate because you said
you can only comment on your own religion so for your sake the debate is
narrowed down to Islam only (You should thank us for that)
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2. "Man will never fully comprehend God"
You know i think from the start itself, me and Milo did not say that God
does not exist but rather we were arguing that Religion is Cult and it is
not God's word (whether it is Islam or any other religion, our arguments are
the same). It doesn't really matter what language you use to call the same
God (English, Malay, Arab, Hindi, Tamil, Chinese). Let me just remind you
that the word Allah means GOD in Arab and not some special name.
.

******************************************************* ***************************

Malaysian Fighting for Malaysia.
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written by Panca Indera, January 03, 2009 22:21:20
You are misinformed. Actually, he reported to Tian Kung (the Chinese Heavenly King who created everything) after he died and is now a General leading in the Heavenly army.
And all past, present and future believers of Tian Kung submit to the will of Mao Tze Tung. The books say so.


Yes indeed its very funny and laughable Ha !ha!

but remember. The day we die, we will meet our Maker (Pascal’s wager remember!) than we will regret, but the its too late.
83.10] Woe on that day to the rejecters,
[83.11] Who give the lie to the day of judgment.
[83.12] And none gives the lie to it but every exceeder of limits, sinful one
[83.13] When Our communications are recited to him, he says: Stories of those of yore.
[83.14] Nay! rather, what they used to do has become like rust . upon their hearts.
[83.15] Nay! most surely they shall on that day be debarred from their Lord.
[83.16] Then most surely they shall enter the burning fire.
[83.17] Then shall it be said: This is what you gave the lie to.
[83.18] Nay! Most surely the record of the righteous shall be in the Iliyin.
[83.19] And what will make you know what the highest Iliyin is?
[83.20] It is a written book,
[83.21] Those who are drawn near (to Allah) shall witness it.
[83.22] Most surely the righteous shall be in bliss,
[83.23] On thrones, they shall gaze;
[83.24] You will recognize in their faces the brightness of bliss.
[83.25] They are made to quaff of a pure drink that is sealed (to others).
[83.26] The sealing of it is (with) musk; and for that let the aspirers aspire.
[83.27] And the admixture of it is a water of Tasnim,
[83.28] A fountain from which drink they who are drawn near (to Allah).
[83.29] Surely they who are guilty used to laugh at those who believe.
[83.30] And when they passed by them, they winked at one another.
[83.31] And when they returned to their own followers they returned exulting.
[83.32] And when they saw them, they said: Most surely these are in error;
[83.33] And they were not sent to be keepers over them.
[83.34] So today those who believe shall laugh at the unbelievers;
[83.35] On thrones, they will look.
[83.36] Surely the disbelievers are rewarded as they did.
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written by Panca Indera, January 03, 2009 22:49:04
YOU DON'T GET IT DO YOU ?. Its not only the Muslims but Christians, Hindus,
Buddhist and everyone else who follows religion blindly can be classified into
that category

Religion is Cult . That’s your assumption

Do we go by your definition of “cult or the acceptable definition of dictionary which is: a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.

Does Islam or Christianity or Judaism fall under this category. Show me!
We are talking about the set of beliefs and principles as stated in the book . not about the individual or groups who misused religion.
Then you said it’s the followers who followed blindly
Make up your mind what or who are you accusing as a cult, because Religion is not a cult.
Religion is a set of beliefs, a value system based on specific moral values
A religion may have values that are strange or disagreeable to others, but so are the set of values of the non believers or Free thinkers have on the religionists .

Depending on the up bringing, society and environment those valve an and will differ.
Do you want a free for all system where everything is legal and OK as long as you are not caught”
Left to the individual. He is only interested of looking after himself first and foremost. Others come later
Is that the kind of beliefs and values you would like some to practice?

Religion gives a set of standard value to people and societies.
And in the Abrahamic religions . Rightly or wrongly those values are of universal nature given by God for Guidance
I can just as well said that blinded non believers are mental retard as you said followers of religions are simpletons and naïve.

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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 23:04:20
Panca, cut it off and focus on what's on the table for the debate. The obvious nonsense in some of my earlier answers is just to jestfully give you a taste of how it feels like being bombarded mindlessly by quotes from a book not of your belief.
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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 23:20:43
PI: Religion is Cult . That’s your assumption

Cult defined (wordweb):
1. Followers of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices
2. An interest followed with exaggerated zeal
3. Followers of an unorthodox, extremist, or false religion or sect who often live outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader
4.A religion or sect that is generally considered to be unorthodox, extremist, or false

All religions including Islam would automatically qualify as a cult under definitions 1 & 2 given above.

The religion will qualify under definitions 3 & 4 if it is veered off in its religious practices from the its own generally accepted main stream religion or if the religious leaders are fakes.

Although I personally do not like to classified any of the mainstream religions as cult, tan-eng is perfectly right in his description of religions as cults if we refer to the definitions given in a dictionary.
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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 23:47:46
PI to tan-eng: Then you said it’s the followers who followed blindly
-----------------------

If you are not allowed to question the tenets or practices of your religion or do not acccept any contrary views even when facts and proofs support those views, by definition you are following it blindly.

Blindly (wordweb): Without preparation or reflection; without a rational basis.

Since following your religion is not based on reason (rational basis) but on faith (based on the assumption the holy text contains God's words that cannot be challenged), the blindly is correct if we were to follow the definition.

By convention, all dogmatic religions require followers to be blind, the most common reason is because every of the dogmatic religions must necessarily believe that what's stated in his holy book is true or is literally from the word of God. If this describtion is followed, all Abrahamic Religions' followers qualify as being blind followers. Being a blind follower does not automatically mean the religion followed is necessarily false, but since every of these religions including the subset schools or denominations cannot agree in the same belief of how to qualify for heaven, and most claim theirs to be the ONLY true path to God, and there is no way to proof anyone wrong (since it is a belief) it is only logical to assume other than the one that is true (assuming there is really one that is true), the rest are false. We know for a fact that there are over 3,000 religious denominations if all the Abrahamic religious sects are combined, that would mean only the followers of 0.003% of the Abrahamic Religions will go to heaven and the rest will go to hell no matter how good they are.

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written by Milo, January 03, 2009 23:49:10
...the term 'blindly' is correct if we were to follow the definition in the dictionary.
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written by Milo, January 04, 2009 00:08:42
PI to tan-eng: Religion gives a set of standard value to people and societies.
-------------------------------

The commonly held belief that without religion, there will be no morals is simply not true if we examine the facts. Let's start with charity. The current two largest contributors to charity in the world, Bill Gates and Warren buffet are both non-religious.

Moral codes are natural in human society as they are evolved from need. Let's take killing as an example. If humans do not know that killing is bad for their survival, they would have been extinct long ago, since they will kill each other's off.

Buddhism has strict moral codes, much stricter than what are in the books of the abrahamic religions. It is strictly not a religion, but closer to that of a philosophy and a way of life and mental developments, since there is absence in the belief of a creator God.

Philosophers like confucious and Aristotle has long preached moral codes before their people were exposed to the Abrahamic religions. Even animals, which definetely do not have a religion, demonstrate care for their youngs and will even risk their lives to protect them.
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written by Milo, January 04, 2009 00:17:30
PI to tan-eng: Do you want a free for all system where everything is legal and OK as long as you are not caught”
Left to the individual. He is only interested of looking after himself first and foremost. Others come later
Is that the kind of beliefs and values you would like some to practice?
-----------------------

We definitely need moral codes and law. But as I have demonstrated in the earlier arguements, these moral codes and laws can be either religious or non-religious. It is purely incidental that religion has prescribed moral codes. In fact, there are many who consider it to be more moral if a person acts morally for goodness sake and not based on fear of punishment from a God (which make him a pretender, not a genuinely good person).
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written by Milo, January 04, 2009 00:29:14
2. "Man will never fully comprehend God"
-----------------------------------------

Agreed, and we do not pretend we understand the minds of God like the religious leaders who think they do. We also do not say with definitiveness that there is no God. We merely say there is no evidence of God existence based on available facts and reasoning, hence the probability is very low that he exists as describe in the text. But we are not stupid. Our belief, unlike yours, are falsifiable. If there are reasonable proofs, we can reverse our belief and say "We are wrong".
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written by Milo, January 04, 2009 00:54:00
Summary and conclusion:

1. If you believe Islam is the ONLY true religion, then you necessarily have to believe that 99.007% of the Abrahamic religions are false and their followers will go to hell. And this exclude other non-Abrahamic religions like hinduism, buddhism, silkism, etc.

2. Good moral codes can be from both religious and non-religious source. Implimenting the Hudud forcefull on a Federal level, for example, would false assume only religion, and specifically Islam, have the moral codes to right the wrongs in the country. My opinion is that this act itself is immoral since it is demonstrable that morals does not come exclusively from religion, and in this case Islam. We are not anti-relition or anti-Islam; we just feel it is not moral or right to force people on your ways especially when there is no need to.

3. If there are reasonable evidence that God exists as described in any religious text, we can be converted. Example, if you say God is omnipresence and yet can intervene (meaning change the future), you must argue rationally how. Qouting from the authority of your book is pointless, because it is not a standard religious text acccepted by everyone. The arguement must have merits. If we do not agree, we must be able to argue why. In this example, I argue that it is impossible to be omnipresence and at the same time intervene in future events. This is fact a non-tenable position at all, just like you cannot have a married bachelor or a black white car- you can only be either one. Holding such a belief would be example of hard core blind following, making your religion looks ridiculous.
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written by CatV5, January 04, 2009 01:04:53
Hi guys... a very long debate indeed... Although debate is meaningless in term of finding the ultimate solution... (most of the time)... it is still fun and expands ones view...if played correctly... I'm lazy to find references now.. so i think i'm not illegible to answer "show proofs if you are truthful"... so if nobody can't accept this... just take it as conjecture... it does not matter one bit for me what anybody believes... i just take the pleasure of expressing and responding and getting the feedback to what is around me... it's just so good to be alive once we let go of the past and focus on what is now and play around with it...

Dear panca.. since you had brought up that UFO and ETs exist... since you relate it with jinn... it should means that ETs are intelligent right? It should be correct since they have UFO ships that can travel through space and probably time and probably dimensions too... a lot of evidence in youtubes... but be aware of the fakes too... let's enjoy this theory..

Now for the possibilities if we add ETs with the equation... If they are intelligent and have ships... i just split it to a general alignment from my observation, (or maybe my fantasy if one does not want to consider this in their equation)...
- they might want to study us either socially or physically (observant type)...
- they might want to help us evolve, through social and genetics (benevolent type)
- we might be a valuable item for them and want to enslave us (malevolent type)
- the earth might have a valuable resource and they want to control it (corporation type)
- they might want to protect us from outside influence and want to control us from discovering things too much (guardian type)

If Quran came to Muhammad pbuh, it can be considered as a form of channeling... Since you believed in Muhammad's claims (1400 years ago) that he is channeling Gabriel... you could believe in others entities channeling too... and there's a lot of channeling materials now, under the label New Age movement... most of them have out of this world theories... most just defies logic and have cool science... some are just babling about love... not saying that all channeling all true or fake.. just putting it into perspective...
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written by CatV5, January 04, 2009 01:05:27
Now to connect the dots... Most witness says, ETs are capable of telephatic communication and manipulating the mind... if this is true... then Muhammad is susceptible to their manipulations too(good or bad purpose is unknown)... And since the 1400 year ago Arabic is naive about God... they can be fooled easily too... (they're Pagan or just barbaric at that time or so i heard) There are some scenario that i could hypothesize...

- First the benevolent type want to tame them so that they can evolve properly... thus they create a God in the image of a deity that wants to be worshipped... thus a scenario of rewards and punishments... Thus matching with the Arabs pshychology at that time... Most Arab males tends to be the master and females are treated like slaves.. and slaves are a lot too... I don't think these dominant males will accept a loving God, so they created a Wrathful God... So with this teaching hopefully the Arab would listen and could at least evolve a little... But some just too attracted to its beauty and don't want to let it go... and they force it to others too, still applying their barbaric nature, but at least they have a cause to their life,the akhirat day and heaven or hell... but it seems like the teaching has evolved a lot too... if they can foresee the future.. maybe the ETs plan is in motion now? All the programs are implanted through the books and confusion.. and now to trigger the buttons...

- I also noticed in Quran... there are some words that is so vague... it can be any meaning which gives different perspectives and adds the confusion... and some words seemed to have hidden agenda in it... and some that is truly benevolent and put beautifully... if i add a hypothesis that the malevolent type wants to interrupt with the benevolent ones transmission... this could be the cause of the mixtures of words...

- or the beautiful words are just cosmetics to confuse us with the true intention that they want... think of the advertisements nowadays... once we get the brand accepted by the masses.. any products from that brand is OK no matter what price or quality...

- Hadith have their own magics too.. like some predictions that some says has come true... like the dajjal or imam Mahadi, n signs of kiamat, the details of isra' mi'raj and etc... (most are not even mentioned in Quran) there has to be some agenda here... if the writer of hadith had been fooled by a mind controlled human what could happen? a lot of possibilities here... and if this personality do come... imagine the power of this person have to control this already blinded cultish followers? But i'm pretty sure those who shared the view with RPK would not become blinded by this... lol... most MTers are becoming aware of the ridiculousness of religion now...

- and to add the mystery of Quran compilation... it's hard to say how did they collect the words of Muhammad, and the burning of the originals and any unaggreed copys seems suspicious... (if Muhammad is considered as illiterate). But there some who believes it is Muhammad's who wrote it... no comment on that... nobody can proves it other than from books written n hundred years ago...
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written by CatV5, January 04, 2009 01:06:12
I could speculate on and on till kingdom come... but it's not important... i just want to demonstrate some possibilities, open some eyes... I hope i can connect to you guys about the connection of ETs and channeling...

Not say that Quran is a bad book or to debunk it... but it is a book worth as a guide and just take the essence of it and leave it peacefully... there's a whole lot more in life than just the book.... but then again maybe it is indeed the human choice and desires is the one that manifest to what we have now...

The Quran does ask us to think right Panca? but it does not specifically ask us to "think based on the Quran", i.e putting the verses to support your arguments... just "think"... by ourselves... i've put out the book out of my equation, and i receive more from God/Source/Universe... it is indeed what growth and expansion is... how come a tree get the sun without releasing the roof?... But you're smart and intelligent just as you had desired... i'm sure you are... you have your own way i believe... But you're not the others saviour, nor their defender...

Most of us only sees what from earth (material) and fears the sun (spiritual) where we have to balance both to grow... look at the tree and plants.. how beautiful have they become? They don't need rituals or holy books to grow like that.. they just desires to find the sun and ground to the earth. And nurture the creatures of the earth... their own style... beautiful is the plants... a lot of wisdom just by observing them...

Sorry if it is too long to read... i hope you guys enjoyed it as much as i do... All is well...
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written by Panca Indera, January 04, 2009 01:10:17
Islam must necessarily believe in incest when they procreate.

1.Laws are made by God and He can abrogate it when and where as He wishes as He is the Owner of everything
2. Adam and Eve lived over 900 years. If their productive years were eight hundred years and have a child every two years, that will be 400 children of which half are girls ( Allah only knows).

DNA or RNA are just genetic codes, If you can believe that the Big Bang can occur by Itself without being ordered, I can believe that Allah can command(Be and It is) the DNA codes of Adam’s children to be suitably altered as to ensure that they are suitable for Marriage to each other.

When the need arises to multiple mankind ......

If there is a nuclear holocaust that wipe out mankind except your son and daughter.
They are the only two left o this earth. What do you think they will choose to do?
Let humanity die out or so called Incest!

Just like the prohibition to eat pig. Allah the Wise allows the eating of pig if other source of food is not available rather then his servant die of hunger. Similarly it can be applied to the children of Adam

[2.173] He has only forbidden you what dies of itself, and blood, and flesh of swine, and that over which any other (name) than (that of) Allah has been invoked; but whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring, nor exceeding the limit, no sin shall be upon him; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

It was common practice in some cultures to marry siblings i.e. The Romans, the Egyptians and other cultures at one time or another, So!

Now perhaps that answers why are so much incest in your community
The ruling is very clear if you care to read and understand, but you rather shoot from the hips
Read and reflect
[4.23] Forbidden to you are your mothers and your daughters and your sisters and your paternal aunts and your maternal aunts and brothers' daughters and sisters' daughters and your mothers that have suckled you and your foster-sisters and mothers of your wives and your step-daughters who are in your guardianship, (born) of your wives to whom you have gone in, but if you have not gone in to them, there is no blame on you (in marrying them), and the wives of your sons who are of your own loins and that you should have two sisters together, except what has already passed; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

perhaps that answers why are so much incest in your community.

Have you got data and numbers to back up your statement about the incest, if not don’t make wild allegation.
I can make allegation too!

smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif
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written by Panca Indera, January 04, 2009 01:35:33
2. "Man will never fully comprehend God"
Agreed, and we do not pretend we understand the minds of God like the religious leaders who think they do.

There you go! Saying that God has a mind!
You are bring God to your level of thinking, but God is beyond that. Understand.
note: Iam not aware that the the religious leaders think like that and I will not make that assumption)

We also do not say with definitiveness that there is no God. We merely say there is no evidence of God existence based on available facts and reasoning, hence the probability is very low that he exists as describe in the text.

I think you are only fooling yourself by the above statement. God knows your inner thoughts.
[50.16] And certainly We created man, and We know what his mind suggests to him, and We are nearer to him than his life-vein.(the vein in our neck going to the brain)

Either you believed or you don’t.

But we are not stupid. Our belief, unlike yours, are falsifiable. If there are reasonable proofs, we can reverse our belief and say "We are wrong"
[2.16] These are they who buy error for the right direction, so their bargain shall bring no gain, nor are they the followers of the right direction.
[30.59] Thus does Allah set a seal on the hearts of those who do not know.

Proofs are everywhere if you really look for. Eevn your own life and the breathing is determined by Allah, Can you not understand. You think you are in control, try stop breathing.

smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif
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written by Milo, January 04, 2009 01:54:00
If there is a nuclear holocaust that wipe out mankind except your son and daughter.
They are the only two left o this earth. What do you think they will choose to do?
Let humanity die out or so called Incest!
-------------------

I am not saying this at all...don't jump blindly to conclusion. Science will tell you if you restrict the gene pool, your off springs will soon go gila. This is a demonstrable scientific fact, whatever you want to believe or your book says. There is much better theory to explain how we evolved, rather then to rely on a book with primitive information. It is you right to believe whatever you want, of course, but a good debate requires an open mind to examine the facts.

Have you got data and numbers to back up your statement about the incest, if not don’t make wild allegation.
I can make allegation too!
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written by Milo, January 04, 2009 01:57:27
Have you got data and numbers to back up your statement about the incest, if not don’t make wild allegation.
I can make allegation too!
-----------------------------

Maybe I should not have said it in what could be a condescending manner, but it is a fact nevertheless. It is often reported in the Malaysian press. I am surprise you are not aware. Links I can provide:

1. Incest-The Growing Scourge among the Malays: http://mahaguru58.********.com...alays.html

2. Nine incest cases in Kelantan
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-82617807.html
THERE were nine cases of incest reported in Kelantan in the first five months of this year, Parliamentary Secretary in the Prime Minister's Department Datuk Noh Omar said.

He said the number was higher than the four cases reported last year, and three cases in 1999.
Taking a swipe at the Pas State Government, Noh said it was ironic ...
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written by Milo, January 04, 2009 01:59:36
3. Zin chokes over incest speech
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-10365018.html

NEWLY-elected Backbenchers Club chairman Datuk Mohd Zin Mohamed, the Shah Alam MP, yesterday had a hard time controlling himself when he talked about incest.

4. Who are the Malays? And how to unite them.
Prepared by Michael Chick (extract)

...However, if there is a certain distinctive physical facial feature, which identifies anyone from any locality, it is usually a case of the gene pool not coming from a wide enough resource. Put bluntly, Incest, or Inbreeding (as Mahathir so aptly put it, in the greater sense of the definition, in his book, “The Malay Delima”). Inter-marrying from within the community. However, some still believe that it is essential that cousins should marry each other to protect the “Blue-Blood”, and/ or to prevent family property from ever leaving the clan.

5. Brunei Times: Finding a solution to incest, the rising social scourge by Hadi DP Mahmud
http://www.bt.com.bn/en/home_news/2007/12/02/finding_a_solution_to_incest_the_rising_social_scourge

Sunday, December 2, 2007

EARLIER this week, a local 58-year-old grandfather was sentenced to five years and six month's imprisonment for raping his granddaughter. The girl was 13-years-old when the rape was committed in 2002, but it was only reported to the police two years later.

Are these evidence sufficient?...do let me know.
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written by Milo, January 04, 2009 02:10:04
The ruling is very clear if you care to read and understand, but you rather shoot from the hips
Read and reflect
[4.23] Forbidden to you are your mothers and your daughters and your sisters and your paternal aunts and your maternal aunts and brothers' daughters and sisters' daughters and your mothers that have suckled you and your foster-sisters and mothers of your wives and your step-daughters who are in your guardianship, (born) of your wives to whom you have gone in, but if you have not gone in to them, there is no blame on you (in marrying them), and the wives of your sons who are of your own loins and that you should have two sisters together, except what has already passed; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
----------------------------------

What your book says is one thing, but the reality is even your people are not following. The evidence is all around on incest, so why are you still so blind to the facts? Is it because you are too obsesed with what the book says this and that rather that checking them out? The is proof of the result of following blindly.
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written by Milo, January 04, 2009 02:20:16
As of now, we can clearly notice the pattern of the debate: One side (us) provide the proofs and reasons independent of authority (i.e. based solely of rationality, verifiable facts and definite sources and not on any holy book), the other party mere quote from his book and provide weak or no reasonings to support.

When he (Panca) ask for proofs and are given as asked, there is not a single acknowledgement.

This is what we call arguing just to win at all cost, not to understand the truths. sigh...what a waste of intellegence.

Just some observations....
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written by Milo, January 04, 2009 02:33:20
Think of God as your Boss. What is the use of you to him, if all you can do is satay (praise) him day and night, but don't use your brain to think. Imagine if you are negotiating a deal on his command (to help get more people to heaven), and all you can do is mindlessly quoting what your boss said is right, no convincing reasoning given, when the other party knows nothing of your boss, what are your chance of failing your boss in your duty? If you are the boss, will you be embarassed or happy?

Now you know why people are "afraid" of muslims in general? The inability to reason...and to differentiate right from wrong of anything that falls outside the book!
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written by CatV5, January 04, 2009 02:41:26
What your book says is one thing, but the reality is even your people are not following. The evidence is all around on incest, so why are you still so blind to the facts? Is it because you are too obsesed with what the book says this and that rather that checking them out? The is proof of the result of following blindly.


As much as the book forbids it... it is the people's responsibility to be aware of it but we are not taught that way.. lately it has been done in a backward way, referring the glory of the past... instead of focusing the the responsibility to think for oneself and focus for growth, i.e. to be critical with the mind, they just focus on the definition of it, lined by ulemas years ago... it's the old time ulemas that's doing the thinking and not these guys... they just copy and elaborate a bit... and copied by a new ulemas, but still is based on the most popular ulemas ideas, and they spread it to people, with some spices of fear of losing the religion and create their villain, Christian and Jews are the usual targets... the teaching is not growing and the sheep is hungry of stimulants, see what happens to the malay teens... all of fear of going astray and be blamed as apostates... but who is going astray now?

This is what we call arguing just to win at all cost, not to understand the truths. sigh...what a waste of intellegence.

Indeed Panca is intelligent... but is wasted a bit... but i'm sure he'll grow... he is a nice guy,... once he learned to let go... i bet he'll beat ur intelligence down to pulp Milo... hehe... just kidding...
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written by Milo, January 04, 2009 02:48:41
DNA or RNA are just genetic codes, If you can believe that the Big Bang can occur by Itself without being ordered, I can believe that Allah can command(Be and It is) the DNA codes of Adam’s children to be suitably altered as to ensure that they are suitable for Marriage to each other.
--------------------------------------

If God allows incest to the extent of altering the DNA & RNA code of Adam's children, and there is no command to retract that practice which he has allowed, then by implication you would be saying he allows incest.

If he has retract his command (as you have quoted from the book), has he also altered the DNA also? Where is it stated in your book?

You asked for evidence (the embrology and incest cases), I have provided you, now it is your turn.
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written by Milo, January 04, 2009 02:50:42
There you go! Saying that God has a mind!
-----------------------

Okay, accepted. Your God is mindless...
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written by Milo, January 04, 2009 02:54:32
I think you are only fooling yourself by the above statement.
-------------------------------------

If you have two children; one uses his brain and think, hence do not take things on face value, the other don't think and takes all things literally, who do conclude is more likely to be fooled by others such as a con man?
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written by Milo, January 04, 2009 03:43:37
catV5: ...i bet he'll beat ur intelligence down to pulp Milo..
---------------------------

hahaha...he already did...to the extent I am changing my name to teh tarik..yes, he is probably a nice guy..will try not to be too harsh on his views.
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written by tan_eng, January 04, 2009 11:28:03
Hi Guys,

Back to the old routine huh ? Well so much of me trying to set of rules. hehehe

Panca Indera, smilies/smiley.gif How are dude.... Hmmm....

Let me start this with only one question as Milo has helped me to answer you. Thanks Milo.

Question No.1 : You claim that Islam is Righteous but is it TRUE ?
- Womens are treated as second class citizens and as sex objects
in Islam (More accurately in Ahadith)
- Qurans requires you to supress the Non-Muslims (at least by tax)

Read This My Brother and Find Out Why Even Muslims Find It Hard To Stay In Islam

http://www.islam-watch.org/MuminSalih/My-Story-with-Quran-Losing-Religion.htm
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written by tan_eng, January 04, 2009 11:29:58
Hi,

Forgot the word "Fair" in the earlier post, please read it together.

See ya,

Malaysian Fighthing For Malaysia
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written by Milo, January 04, 2009 14:33:47
tan_eng, haha...habits die hard, isn't it. It is hard to resist answering PI especially some of his remarks is so blindly driven! But really, it is always hard to reason with a die-hard dogmatist and get him to change his mind. They are not interested in proof or fact or reasoning or truth, but solely in winning the arguement. You can't see him admiting to a single wrong! Can't blame them though...losing the arguement is equated to not being able to defend his precious religion. Anyway, brother, we have made our points well...and readers can judge. Most importantly, we have given PAS sufficient reasons why we cannot accept hudud laws or the Islamic Concept. In some way, Panca Indera has helped us to demonstrate why the Islamic way is seen as a frightening threat to others - it is deemed perfect even in areas where it can be DEMONSTRATED that it is not - hence hideous errors within their tenets cannot be changed nor challenged once they are in place as federal laws.

This thread is going to the dump bin very soon, so see ya in other threads.
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written by Milo, January 04, 2009 15:31:43
tan-eng, Read your link provided http://www.islam-watch.org/Mum...ligion.htm

Muslims should NOT read it. Either it can shake his faith irreparably or it will make him even more inordinately irrational in arguing for Islam. In the case of Panca Indera, I speculate it will likely be the second case...more mindless quoting and even less thinking than the start as he sees his points raised fall to pieces. cheers
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written by CatV5, January 04, 2009 16:00:48
Thanks for the link tan_eng... although i don't like his style of bashing or blaming Islam for making him to become what he was... but it did showed some cool points that i haven't checked yet... If i am him, i would be thankful for the experience... the feeling of breaking up the shell and discovering the horizon is so fascinating...

But for the muslims... Better stay away... the article is long and full of Islam bashing... just don't report to the police... don't even try to read... you'll regret it... the satan force is strong within the writer, it will break the faith that you have built... stay away... smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif
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written by Milo, January 04, 2009 16:35:01
CatV5, I don't think the article can be counted as 'Islam bashing' if what the author said are factually true. I don't see how else he can say those those things in a much nicer way unless he made up all those claims he pointed out. The science info manipulation is an example of factual presentation by the author, the latest being Harun Yahya and his book 'Atlas of Creation' which is debunked by Dawkin. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L5TD3nwXXA
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written by CatV5, January 04, 2009 18:18:34
Erm i guess you're right.. just can't find the right and softer word to describe that. The bias does go to that what i described but with a softer words.. the comments does have some extremes though...

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written by sueteh, January 05, 2009 16:43:00
PAS uses Hudud & Qisas as their tools and BN UMNO pakai itu Islam Hadahari. Therefore, there will be no difference. Malaysia is basically majority Muslims.

Honestly, how many Muslim men actually do their 5 times prayers everyday?? Most of time, they skipped a lot. Is it not irony that, for 11 months, one can behave naughtily and then comes Ramadan month, one is expected to be holy and sanctified. Menjelang Syawal 1, it is celebration of kemenangan of some kind of war. But, what do you actually see..kemenangan over having to fast for 30 days. Is the Muslims really wants to follow the true meaning of Ramadan and Syawal Satu, it is all about being keserderhanaan, not spending loads of money of clothings, holidays, food, new furnitures/curtains etc. Of course, you can say now Hari Raya Puasa has been commercialised.

How many Muslims actually go to Sembahyang Terawih after berbuka?? Most of them, berbuka in restaurants/eateries located inside shopping malls, lepas makan apa lagi..shopping lah. Am I not right on this matter? That green ang pow packet..is a copy cat of chinese hong pao. Even the indians have i dont know what colour packet for moeny. Raya is all about balik kampung, baju raya, kuih raya. Islam not mention at all.

The Christians...many of them also practices what i called 'selective morality'..what they agree and like..they will embrace it and will try to shove it down people's throats..like..a church now has their yearly..Church Theme. Yes, one must have direction and focus. What they do not like it will be ignored completely. Why do people go to church? Only very few go because of God. Many goes to church, to look for wife/husband (so many Christian women having un-Christian men), look for connections for business/jobs, finding friends..after getting all these..last thing will be Jesus brother. That, also many not bothered. Is Jesus your divine ATM?? The Christian so against divorces..and they harp on the grounds of adultery. But very often, the spouses split is due to irconciable differences, not only due to adultery.
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written by sueteh, January 05, 2009 16:57:53
I have no respect for those Christian men.be it as a leader of some kind or just your everyday joe man. those who really holds the power in the church is their wives. their wives are really 'kia si lang'..menakutkan. their husbands often just merely symbolic head of the family. so, if you want to attend the church, be extra nice to the leader's wives. i sincerely believe their wives is the one is the true power in the church despite saying that Christ is the Head of the Church and man the head of the family..but many Christian man takut bini, 'kia boh', afraid of their wives.

what i find disgusting is that, you supposingly go to church to listen to supposingly god sermon, but often you heard that preacher up there at the pulpit exalting their wives. Ok..you want to say you sayang your wives but wait a minute..this is a church..not a social party. then, you go back and i am sure many arguments.

last thing, the christian pastors/preachers..they are supposingly to hear DIRECTLY from their god (unless their are coward to stand before their awesome god) to deliver god message, but i seriously doubt it because most of these preachers/pastors are married..they can say hear from their wives (second hand information) there might be a possibility their wives sudah tapis/filter god message?? another thing, there is one bible verse saying that 'husbands do not provoke your wife..otherwise god won't listen to your prayers'..alleluia..is it not your god a feminist inclined god?? that part about submit to husband..aiyah..want to shag/fcuk then only submit loh..can always contra being the lioness at home. hmm.i think i want to marry a christian man..easy to control jadi pak turut/yes man and get all my heart desires. wow! dream on..yea.
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written by tan_eng, January 05, 2009 19:10:47
Dear Sueteh,

If you are trying to say that Christianity is also a cult as other religions then i agree as usual.

See ya,

Malaysian Fighthing For Malaysia.


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written by tan_eng, January 05, 2009 19:13:20
But i am wondering why you are so mad with christian women.... smilies/grin.gif ..

See ya

Malaysian Fighting For Malaysia.
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written by Panca Indera, January 05, 2009 23:57:10
Once upon a time in China an Emperor had a son named Mao Tze Dong. He was a joy to his father’s eyes as it was long overdue and he wanted a son to continue his rule.

He gave Mao the best of every thing that a boy could ever wanted and was schooled to be the best knowledge and trained to be the bravest warrior China would produced. The boy grew up to be a young man who, could do no wrong and was the envy of everyone in China.

Meanwhile the Emperor being an Emperor, had another son named Ma, from his favorite Concubine who was born with a slight physical handicap but nevertheless kind, sincere and intelligent.

As the years passed and the emperor getting older, he started to think of handling his reign to Mao, eldest boy. However the emperor wanted to put Mao to a final test to ensure Mao will be the right man to rule China in a fair and just manner.

So he called both his sons, Mao and Ma to see him in the present of his PM. and his Mandarins . Without any prior notice, announced that he has decided to Install Ma as the next Emperor and requested that everyone in the room to kowtow to Ma.

Mao was stunned and immediately showed his displeasure and protested that he should be the next emperor, not Ma especially since Ma is physically handicapped. Mao showed his other side of his personality that day.

On the other hand Ma pleaded with his father that he would prefer that his elder brother be installed as the next emperor it is a very heavy responsibility and he was not sure if he could carry it out.

The Emperor seeing the events played out in front of him that day then knew who was going to the the next emperor of China.

The End.

Similarly Iblis the chief Shaitan was given the final test to see if his obedience to Allah was genuine enough to withstand his ego. As History has shown he failed miserably.

Before the Big Bang, all the spirits and souls of human were brought before Allah and made to be witness against themselves that Allah is their your Lord. They all said: Yes! we bear witness..

Like the story of the Chinese Emperor above, it is easy for people like Mao to act well behaved when they have not been challenged or tested.
The real proof of their goodness can only come after the final test when they are not expecting it or cannot remember their pledges.

read
7.172] And when your Lord brought forth from the children of Adam, from their backs, their descendants, and made them bear witness against their own souls: Am I not your Lord? They said: Yes! we bear witness. Lest you should say on the day of resurrection: Surely we were heedless of this.

7.186] Whomsoever Allah causes to err, there is no guide for him; and He leaves them alone in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on.


[7.179] And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men; they have hearts with which they do not understand, and they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear; they are as cattle, nay, they are in worse errors; these are the heedless ones

smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif
WOnder when the thread will end RPK?
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written by Milo, January 06, 2009 00:21:21
Welcome back Panca Indera!

Wonder why Allah send recorder like you to debate others on religion? Quite boring really!

Anyway, you should once a while smell a rose, listen to Rock & Roll and relax....Allah may be just testing you to see if you can enjoy and appreciate his creation, learn to listen, think and reflect on his his messengers' (us) point of views with the powerful brain he has bestowed you.
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written by Milo, January 06, 2009 00:24:34
And the real Shaitan could be the one in the mirror looking back at you every morning. Exorcise him and all will be well!
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written by tan_eng, January 06, 2009 01:01:49
Hi Guys,

Panca Indera, you are getting absurd now. I know you are justifying for the temporary lost of your faith after being exposed to the truth.

I will do you a favour. I will leave you with your justification because i am satisfied with a fact that for a moment in your life i managed to open your heart to the truth.

I am sure you will find the truth again but this time it would be on your own.

Good Luck Brother. I hope to see you as a true Malaysian in the future.

See ya,

Malaysian fighting For Malaysia.

If you didn't read it properly earlier here is the link again.

P.S : http://www.islam-watch.org/Mum...ligion.htm
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written by CatV5, January 06, 2009 12:17:11
Milo. The rose smells good. You should try orchid... very nice smell, very light and have a unique sense of feeling.

Lately i kinda like Faizal Tahir's voice, maybe you should listen to his songs... the voice is really sharp and loud. So good to see all the varieties of this world.

I could just reverse the verses back to you Panca... the meaning is the same for me in my perspective. The verses that you brought up is not for us.. but it's for you... won't you take heed? What you have discovered is for you and to your soul only. Will you you let your heart understand it? No? Still idolizing the book as your God? Maybe i'm mistaken? will you rejoice with God only or will you rejoice with the book and the God? Will you be angry with me when i tell you the book is your God? If you deny it would you let the book go and focus to God only? No? Cannot? the book is better than God that is closer than your jugular vein? Don't believe it? are you not a believer?

Syaitan is created by you, in your image.. as long as you let it be alive within you, you will always fear it, you won't mention it if you don't think about every details of it. It won't come to you if you attract it and feed it with your fear... The next obvious logical step after discovering this, is that theres nothing to fear to it and it's better to fear God and ignore the syaitan... and the next logical step is to be in peace and start receiving the signs and the next logical step is to love God and not fear anything anymore and focus to loving God as much as you can and discovers that God loves you too.. then the next logical step is loving His creations as much as God love yourself as His creation... It's that simple. And i had spoiled it.. lol... who cares anyway nowadays, peoples are just busy nitpicking the history and debating what is right for them and others... Wouldn't it be nice to find the way out of the dark alley and see the sun, the sea and the mountains, the sky the stars, the plants the animals and appreciate the beauty?... smilies/grin.gif

But hey, i'm just talking to myself only... not you Panca... you're already perfect as you should be..

Is this gonna be the Malaysian longest comments thread?
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written by Milo, January 06, 2009 14:59:13
CatV5. Will smell the orchild..and just listened to Faizal Tahir's voice in youtube, 'We are the champions', nice.

You have captured the essence of what transpired for Panca Indera, i.e. his Book has replaced his God, hence the mindless quoting. Remind me of what Bruce Lee once said, "The finger pointing to the moon is NOT the moon!" Without realising it, Panca has been treating his 'finger' (the book) as the moon (God). The bad news is, some will never get it; the good news is those who get it will be free as the wind, and with a mind that is illuminated like the stars.

Cheers! smilies/grin.gif
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written by CatV5, January 06, 2009 16:37:54
Nice one Bruce Lee.. hehe..

Love stars... Use ****** earth in sky mode to see helluva lot of stars... cool one... Though i don't know where to start.. lol.. the galaxies is beautiful...

Cheers!
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