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Acknowledging failures in religion PDF Print
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Monday, 15 December 2008 09:20

By Aloysious Mowe (The Nut Graph) 

THE headlines in the newspapers as I sit down to write this are as gloomy as the dank December day in Washington, DC, outside. Sunni militants bomb a Shia mosque in Iraq, killing Shia worshippers. Responsibility for the terrorism in Mumbai is claimed by a group calling itself the Deccan Mujahideen. Violence between Muslims and Christians in Nigeria results in the deaths of hundreds.

The Western media are often accused of showing an anti-Muslim bias, especially in the wake of the events of 2001 in the US. The terms “Muslim” and “Islam” only turn up when linked to militants, jihad, and extremism. The television companies highlight terrorism and other atrocities on their news broadcasts to whet the appetites of their increasingly jaded audiences.

I consider myself fairly clued up on issues such as media bias and the widespread ignorance about Islam in the US. Nevertheless, this morning I find that I have to make an effort to resist composing the headline in my own head: Muslim violence again.

I confess I am almost relieved to find out that, even though only churches and not mosques seem to have been destroyed in Nigeria, nevertheless Christians there have been as guilty of violence as their Muslim counterparts.

Religious tit for tat

The history of violence and intolerance in the name of religion should not be turned into a blame game. It is easy to read the headlines about terrorists who claim Islam as their motivation and their cause, and to say, “They are violent,” and, “They are intolerant.” We forget that some of the discontent that fuels such violence finds its roots in the period of Western colonialism and neo-colonialism.


Procession in Bangalore for Mahatma Gandhi's Quit India Movement, a call for independence of India from British rule, 1942
(public domain. Source: wikipedia.org)

One of the greatest crimes of the 20th century was the way the British mismanaged the partition of India and Pakistan. The conflict between these two nations today, centered on the status of Kashmir, is just the latest act in that long tragedy.

Muslims who blame Western colonialism for all the evils in their world forget too easily, however, that the West has also on many occasions suffered from Muslim colonialism. The Ottoman Turks were as aggressive in their empire-building efforts as the Western powers were in the 19th and 20th centuries. A large part of the Christian Mediterranean endured the Muslim yoke of Ottoman rule for hundreds of years.

Even England and Ireland further north were not spared. State papers from the Stuart era in England refer to the English Channel as “a Turkish Sea” because of the dominance of Ottoman naval power. Raids on the English and Irish coasts were launched from the Ottoman client-state of Algiers, “the whip of the Christian world”. It was only in 1683, with the failure of the Ottoman siege of Vienna, that the Muslim threat to Christian Europe began to subside.

Crusades
Muslims can cite Christian aggression and violence during the Crusades (Public domain. Source: wikipedia.org)

Muslims can cite Christian aggression and violence during the Crusades, of course. Christians, however, can counter that the Palestine they sought to conquer only became Muslim because of Arab aggression and conquest, when the Caliph Umar ibn al-Khattab took the city in 683CE.

Claim within context

There is a persistent claim that Muslim rule was always tolerant and accommodating to the non-Muslim population. Proponents of an Islamic state often cite the convivencia in Muslim Spain, a term used to describe the glorious and harmonious coexistence of Muslims, Jews, and Christians in Muslim Andalusia. This Muslim golden age is often contrasted with the intolerance of Catholic Spain after the reconquista ended Muslim rule.

Maimonides
19th century portrait of Maimonides
(public domain. Source: wikipedia.org)

This is a romantic legend. It is true that Maimonides, the greatest of Jewish philosophers, was a product of Muslim Spain. But those who most often speak of tolerant Andalusian Islam always forget to mention that the Muslim rulers of Cordoba offered Maimonides and the entire Jewish community the choice of conversion to Islam, death, or exile. Several Muslim sources, such as al-Qifti's Tarikh al-hukama and Ibn al-Ibri's Tarikh mukhtasar al-duwal, even claim that Maimonides was forced to convert to Islam before his exile.

It is instructive for us to remember the words of Americo Castro, the historian who first coined the term convivencia to describe the creative interaction between Jews, Muslims and Christians in Muslim Spain. “Each of the three peoples of the peninsula saw itself forced to live for eight centuries together with the other two at the same time it passionately desired their extermination,” wrote Castro.

There is no bifurcation of “they” and “we” in the history of religious intolerance and violence. There is only a “we”, in the sense of “kita” in Malay, the first person plural pronoun that includes both the speaker as well as the one spoken to. The period in which much of Islamic law and theology developed was not one in which religious freedom or tolerance, in the sense that we understand today, were seen as social or ethical goods.

Christianity has the Inquisition, the wars of religion in Europe, the destruction of many civilisations and cultures, and so much more, to answer for. Neither Muslims nor Christians have clean hands. As Bernard Lewis has observed, “for Christians and Muslims alike, tolerance is a new virtue and intolerance a new crime”.

Conversations of truth

If we intend to engage one another in a truthful and fruitful conversation, we need to acknowledge the failures evident from the history of our religious traditions. We must move away from the childish romantic legends of perfect virtue and infallibility. Otherwise we end up always in the futile activity of protecting our own turf, or justifying our collective religious neuroses.

Official Islam in Malaysia at present seems incapable of engaging in this conversation of truth. Some Muslim commentators have said that the recent fatwa issue, and indeed all Islamic matters, should be left to Muslims, and non-Muslims should not comment on them. Their argument is that fatwa do not affect non-Muslims, and therefore should not be questioned by them.

When a fatwa reinforces a version of Islam that is reactionary and intolerant, then it does affect non-Muslims. The policing of morals, and the arrogation of religious authority by just one small elite group, can result in a kind of spiritual pride that affects all relationships in the community we call Malaysia. It is no great leap to go from telling Shia Muslims in Malaysia they cannot practise their faith, to telling a Muslim who wishes to be a Buddhist or Hindu that she has no such freedom. Intolerance creeps, and religious violence does not just come at the point of a gun.

Comments (42)Add Comment
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written by temenggong, December 15, 2008 09:56:43
Qasab confesses, and is sorry for what he did. He says he was misled by Lashkar devils!

http://islamicterrorism.*********.com/2008/12/14/ajmal-amir-kasab-i-am-pakistani-and-a-terrorist-i-am-the-biggest-sinner-i-have-killed-so-many-innocent-people-may-god-forgive-me/
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written by cheekhiaw, December 15, 2008 10:43:37
Sure, religion is not the cause of the problem. It is just a convenient excuse. It is silly humans following and using it to serve their purposes that are the problem.

If you get bird flu, the virus is not the cause. It is the chicken.

xxx
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written by joeawk, December 15, 2008 11:10:57
Almost everytime we heard of violence, it more often than not involved the muslims, followers of a ghreat and peaceful religion, we were told.

I just wonder why? Perhaps, muslim can tell us something we don't know.
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written by taishan, December 15, 2008 11:13:59
No one is doing it in the cause of religion. Muslims are - Allah Akbar ?
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written by joeawk, December 15, 2008 11:18:38
We could be looking at thousands of years of psyche manipulation. It won't be easy to change because it will need years of debriefing and not quite like the military debriefing we watch on TV.
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written by yteo2, December 15, 2008 11:22:43
religion does not cause problems, it is fanatics that use religion as an excuse to make trouble that causes the problems. ALL religions preach peace, NOT war! I am Agnostic, BUT I believe religions like Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Sikhism, Hinduism, etc all preach about peace and elevating oneself to a state of goodness, not hatred... DO NOT confuse fanaticism with religion!!
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written by ssathia, December 15, 2008 11:33:50
Religion is the product of the old world, an early and feeble attempt by humans to make sense of his or her environment and way of life. But religion did not stop there. It has quickly matured into a tool used by a few for control and minipulation of the masses, playing into the realms of dirty politics.The sad thing is that the masses do not realise that they are the victims and continue to live in fools' paradise. Spiritual needs have long been trampled upon by religions, making people to suck up to specific brands and methods extolled by those in power. The human spirit has long been put under the cage.
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written by temenggong, December 15, 2008 11:42:48
religion does not cause problems, it is fanatics that use religion as an excuse to make trouble that causes the problems.


For too long we have been repeating this and comforting ourselves. It is not true. Religion IS the problem, not the people. People blindly follow. Organised Religions are the problem. It suffocates whatever spirituality there is in a religion. Organised religion differentiates, discriminates, and is the first step to war, first in the mind, then physically. One cannot be a member of an organised religion and yet be spiritual. That is not possible at all, for one is not yet free, and in a state of humility. It is fake spirituality, charity and virtues. To be truly free and spiritual one has to step out of organised religions.
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written by carribeanking7, December 15, 2008 11:45:15
The problem is far too many people do not practice the values they espouse beyond lip service, whether they are religious or not.

There is am obsession with form but not substance.
many also do not understand the difference between personal convictio and the organised religions that force their beliefs dwon others throats.

This for of organized religion is what.....

The wise consider false

The fools consider true


..........and politicians consider "useful".


Vijay Kumar Murugavell
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written by 98PercentPrimate, December 15, 2008 11:56:26
written by cheekhiaw, December 15, 2008 10:43:37
Sure, religion is not the cause of the problem. It is just a convenient excuse. It is silly humans following and using it to serve their purposes that are the problem.
If you get bird flu, the virus is not the cause. It is the chicken.

This is not very good logic lah. Even if you kill all the chicken on Earth, the virus will jump to other birds. And if you kill all the birds, it will mutate and jump to other reptiles or animals. The effective strategy is to contain the spread of the virus.

There is some truth is what Steven Weiberg said,

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

I don't think he meant wholesale religion, as the core purpose of most religion is mainly for the betterment of mankind. However, there is certain 'virus' amongst the good intentions of some religion that extremists get themselves infected to promote evil to humanity.

Note the following observations;

Religion A followers holy texts = rare or no violence by followers
Religion B followers holy texts = some violence by some followers
Religion C followers holy texts = a lot violence by some followers
Religion D followers holy texts = some violence by followers
Religion E followers holy texts = rare or no violence by followers


Another observation

Believers of A convert to C = commit violence
Believers of A convert to B or D = some violence
Believers of C convert to A = no violence
Believers of C convert to D = no violence

In case of violence B, C, and D, the followers claimed (rightly or wrongly) that they commit violence based on their beliefs.

From the above case study, it is possible to make logical deductions on the source of violence. The rationale is; A and E are religion by the definition, but their followers do not commit violence noticeably. On the other hand, B,C & E are also religion by the same definition, but their believers commit violence in the name of religion. Therefore there must be some aspects of religion B,C, and D that play a contributive role to violence.

The above is re-enforce when believers from A and E converts to B,C or E, these converts also commit violence.

It is only rational to find out what is the specific variable(s) that contribute to the violence.

In any religion there are thousands of sub-variables. The question is which variable is cause of violence by the religionist of B,C,D.

If the specific variable( virus) is found, getting rid or controlling that specific variable will thus reduce violence due to religious causes.

Conclusion: We cannot simply give religion a 100% clean sheet just because by definition it is a religion.
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written by 98PercentPrimate, December 15, 2008 11:59:56
"Religion A followers holy texts = rare or no violence by followers"

The equations should all be in the following format;

Religion A {plus} followers {plus} holy texts = rare or no violence by followers

seem MT do not accept the plus ( ) sign?
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written by cruzeiro, December 15, 2008 12:10:53
Mawi,
On the contrary, mawi - it is you who are confused.
You actually echo what he says.

But then I concur with what temenggong says - organized "religion" is the problem.
More so with the Abrahamic religions which go about with a chip on their shoulder as guardians of the whole truth!
In the process, spirituality is forgotten.
However temenggong, I'd dispute your conviction that one cannot be spiritual and be a member of an organized religion - although chances of it are quite slim ....

Cheers, mate.
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written by DannyLoHH, December 15, 2008 12:10:58
Religion is one of the major cause of wars and human sufferings throughout history. This is especially true in Europe, Africa and the middle east. While most religion claims to preach and practice peace but they also have escape clauses; and if that is not bad enough most of them also have claims that they hold the monopoly of truth while others are false. It is these escape clauses and monopoly claims to truth that created all the problems. So, religions are the problems.
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written by temenggong, December 15, 2008 12:23:41
If the specific variable( virus) is found, getting rid or controlling that specific variable will thus reduce violence due to religious causes.


That virus has been identified. It is Organised Religion, as opposed to the spirituality in the teachings. In christianity the virus is the Church, and the spirituality is in the 4 plus 1 Gospels. In islam the virus is the religion itself and the spirituality is in the deen!

Hinduism and Taoism are not Organised Religions. Buddhism is somewhat in between.
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written by temenggong, December 15, 2008 12:32:45
However temenggong, I'd dispute your conviction that one cannot be spiritual and be a member of an organized religion - although chances of it are quite slim ....


That's what I meant cruz. Slim to remote. Christianity has produced no saints since Marcus Aurelius. Islam produced nothing since Mohammed. Omar Khayyam who came close was not really a muslim.

Today, I personally know at least three persons who have realised/experienced god, here in Malaysia, in Subang Jaya, Kota Kemuning, Cheras, etc who can write any veda, bible or koran. At least several dozens more exist in Malaysia as we speak, although most prefer anonymity.
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written by mahkota, December 15, 2008 12:42:03
Keep it personal. Just consider religion as the medium between you and god. End of problems.
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written by 98PercentPrimate, December 15, 2008 12:50:56
temenggong, December 15, 2008 12:23:41
Was in the midst of typing, didn't read you post.
Very good points.
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written by Tornado, December 15, 2008 13:40:04
Religion is about Guidance, History & Knowledge. What make the religion alive is the follower.

The story of religion same as story having a knife. How to use it's up to people to decide not the knife, to hurt and kill people or to cut a food. Same thing goes to religion and follower. It's not the religion create the act but the people.

Linked religion to terrorist or brutal is unresponsible behave.
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written by Milo, December 15, 2008 14:54:05
Tornado,

The reality is there are special differences between religions that impact how their followers behave....Some religious texts actually endorse the use of the metaphorical knife to cut people other than things, while others don't. You can hardly find a buddhist or jainist blowing himself up as a suicide bomber in the name of his religion because killing is forbidden in both doctrines. But you can easily find suicide bombers in others whose religious text authorizes such acts. So you can't really say there is no link between religious beliefs and act of brutalism or terrorism. Any belief system be they religious or not does have an impact on their followers behaviour, although the degree varies with each person.
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written by Milo, December 15, 2008 15:07:47
Did God created religion for humans or humans created religion for themselves?While the different religious followers of "the One True God" is fighting each other to death for centuries in HIS name, and HE looks on with folded arms? mmm...something here just doesn't seem right.

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written by Rainbowseahorse, December 15, 2008 15:13:44
Every major religion practiced today is good. I said “today” because some major religions in human’s history demands human sacrifices which would not make that a good religion; right?

It’s the practitioners, i.e. humans, whose urge to dominate over another human that makes the great religion of the day perceived to be extremist and even violent. It’s the inner desire of humans to enforce their ideologies over others, the deep conviction that their views and beliefs are true over others, or to use a particular religion as a tool to advance their accumulation of wealth and a strong grip on power.

Have you notice that throughout history, most European & Middle East powers came about only with the emergence of a particular religion? It seems religion goes hand in hand with politics.
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written by amoker, December 15, 2008 15:57:43
This is a romantic legend. It is true that Maimonides, the greatest of Jewish philosophers, was a product of Muslim Spain. But those who most often speak of tolerant Andalusian Islam always forget to mention that the Muslim rulers of Cordoba offered Maimonides and the entire Jewish community the choice of conversion to Islam, death, or exile. Several Muslim sources, such as al-Qifti's Tarikh al-hukama and Ibn al-Ibri's Tarikh mukhtasar al-duwal, even claim that Maimonides was forced to convert to Islam before his exile.


I learn something else today. I have always been programmed that the Spanish Muslim rulers are angels..
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written by kavidibaku, December 15, 2008 15:57:49
If everyone stick to this "Bagi engkau agamamu, bagi aku agamaku", then that's the end of problems. For you yours is perfect, for me mine is the perfect. When we argue, that's when all the problems on earth arise. God must be laughing at humans for fighting on GOD's issue. It is really nuisance. We have 1000 and 1 better things to do rather than arguing about religion and god.
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written by Rainbowseahorse, December 15, 2008 16:21:07
kavidibaku,

Ditto!

Yes, when we venture into the realms of the universe and face the ever presence threat of being totally annihilated by meteors, politics and religion seem so insignificant, childish, and petty issues.
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written by Shimshon, December 15, 2008 16:42:10
Wherever Muslims go & claim as Muslim, they'd claim it as Muslim & Islamic - "Dulu, Kini & Selamanya"; act as if they're the native/indigenous of the land; very much like Muhammad took refuge in Madinah (fleeing from his own Makkah folks), then later took over the Jewish-majority city by the sword, and renamed the city after himself, Madinah, meaning "City of the Prophet".

Muslims go whereever they want; claim the right to, "because to whole world belongs to Allah, thus Muslims', not nonMuslims'". But nonMuslims are not that welcomed to Muslim majority areas, nations unless they can do all "the labour & dirty/inferior work" while the Muslims get the top jobs, admin kind of jobs.

Just look at Malaysia's background/history, how we nonMalays are not acknowledged for our massive contributions. Look at the oil-rich (Persian)Gulf States, those Arabs building "ultra modern" cities in the sea(islands created) and on land - most of the work done by infidels, and extremely cheap labour supplied by nonArabs ie mostly from the Indian Subcontinent. After the projects, cities, etc are completed, the Arabs would take over and act as if they build the cities with their toil and sweat, and using indigenous ideas/inventions. (Of 300 mil. Arabs in the Arab World and extremely few sought jobs in the Gulf States).

Both former British protectorates, Arabia (Muslim holy land, including holy cities Makkah, Madinah), and Malaysia. But the Brits didn't convert them, declare them "Christian land". Muslims took over Israel & Jerusalem, homeland & holy city esp. to the Jews/Hebrews/Israelites for thousands of years, and the Muslims consider it always as theirs going back to Adam's time.

Christians generally persecute & kill their own kind. Muslims do it on Muslims and nonMuslims; no infidels around, the Muslim would kill oppress & kill each other worse than they did on the infidels/kafirs; just look at Iraq, Afghanistan, and "Palestine"(the Hamas, Fatah, etc clash).

That's why - no one runs to Muslim areas, territories, nations. Muslims and nonMuslims both flee for a better life, to greener pastures in nonMuslim/infidel areas, land. (Now Muslims are everywhere, and there's no place for us to flee).

Yep! It's so good to be an infidel/kafir/nonMuslim - despite all our shortcomings, negative and evil sides!
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written by cheekhiaw, December 15, 2008 17:54:32
An middle eastern intellectual has this story to describe the behaviour of some people in his region.

I gave a man a ride on my horse out of the desert. Before he got onto the horse, he said 'what a nice horse you have!'. Along the way, he said 'what a nice horse we have!'. By the time we reached the end of the desert, he was saying 'what a nice horse I have!'.

That of course an also be applied to some thieves around here.

xxx
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written by cruzeiro, December 15, 2008 18:05:13
Mawi,
What I meant to say was that I suppose, Alloysius himself was trying to say the same thing (though not the "Islam is perfect part") that men have used religion for their political convenience, and claimed that their Barbarism is God ordained, with any number of scriptural spins.

All he says is that religion has brought many evils in its wake, and the fault is always on the men who commit the crimes in the name of the religion, and never the "religion". There must be something wrong with a certain idea, if it has brought so much misery and evil - and if Islam is as you say "is perfect", then all these guys claiming to be Muslims must be wrong somewhere along the line in their preaching/teaching and have misunderstood this "perfection", so much so, it creates hatred and so much misery in their domain.
The question is, "... are they willing to admit their "imperfect" understanding/teachings of their religion, and open their ideas/opinions for debate?"

He (probably) proposes that, there must be something wrong with the "religion" - not necessarily the "theology".
There is a big difference, Mawi - Religion starts with man and ends with God, while Theology starts with God and ends with man. More often than not, one's religion shapes his theology, when in fact it should be vice-versa. Now many who advocate these two things, seem very much wanting in "spirituality", despite their robes or nakedness.
One thing though - "spirituality" needs neither of these!
Herein lies the problem.

Having said these things, I do acknowledge the necessity for some form of organized religion in today's world, as it forms the basis of "primordial" laws of morality. It granted legitimacy to rulers/leaders of old - which is a practice that isn't quite lost on many politicians today. It is the foundation of "Laws" and "Politics", which manifests as "culture", and has evolved into societies, civilizations. There has always been a need for "spin doctors" of the "priestly class" to "explain" events and "signs" to inspire or allay the fears of the people (especially on matters that they cannot comprehend).
It was the "primordial soup" so to speak from which man and thought and philosophy evolved - and history shows that civilizations came and went, depending on the sustainability/validity of their ideas/ beliefs/ philosophy. With time, civilizations based on ideas steeped in superstition and "perceived truths/perfection" eventually crumble when they don't keep up with the onslaught of evolution/ progress (simply out of arrogance).

Although India and China did not essentially have one cohesive organized religion in Hinduism or otherwise in their ancient civilizations, they did have a very loose organization of sorts so as to build a homogeneous culture which was their "deen" - which translated to the bedrock of their civilizations which was open to foreign influences. They only receded into mediocrity when they were exploited or "closed up".
The same fate awaits all other cultures arising from any form of worship/ religion ....

Now about "perfection" ....
If Islam is perfect for you, if that is what you believe, so be it - nobody can say otherwise, as that is how you'd define perfection. However, it has to remain that this perfection is based on love/compassion, goodwill and the golden rule of reciprocity. If this perfection doesn't fulfill these criteria, this "perfection" has to be flawed in some manner.

My perception on "perfection" in any religion/philosophy is a little different. If a piece of rock defines perfection to the hypothetical "village idiot", there's nothing you can do to change that - if you can, it already is imperfect to him. I do not say this to insult anybody who believes in any form of perfection/religion - just an "academic" observation/opinion.
I do not see the point in idolizing an imperfect idea or person ....
As far as I'm concerned, we can only strive for perfection and anything that's "achievable" and can be comprehended by the human mind is imperfect.
Perfection is just an ideal we strive for, a target - that's all.
It's "unachievable", except in the divine.
To me, nothing except "God" can be perfect - and nothing (not even "Islam" as may be knowable to man), comes close to defining "God".
Yes, mawi - as far as I'm concerned, wholly knowing something, renders it imperfect!

BTW, temenggong - there have been spiritual saints/philosophers on all fronts, in all religious practices/disciplines, and a great many since Marcus Aurelius.
Just that you haven't kept yourself updated. smilies/grin.gif
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written by panca, December 15, 2008 18:55:22
Religion is only good minus or less of the BIG FAT EGO.

Or else it is as rampant as kicking dogs crossing one's path. Human is a race and religion instead of unites, more of divides.

Just as hating dogs because hatred becomes with one, arising from that BIG FAT EGO. The sight of a dog is enough to send one hater biased against a poor animal, what more when the smell of dog shit, one becomes amok. This is bad programming of religion that moves the wrong and misguided direction.

If religion is love that only love, period.

We knock into another car because one of us wasn't in the right, we either end up behaving like adults or hooligans.

If religion supposed to be making us better adults or if we chose to behave like hooligans, which should not be the latter. If the latter is what we become then we see no difference between one that behaves badly in that car accident. Even dog that pass by would be kicked! What a shame when we need a religion and not living the goodness it teaches but see more of divide because of BIG FAT EGO running in the 'religion' programme?

What shit is not part of human, anyway?
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written by Milo, December 15, 2008 21:57:25
panca,

If minus or less of the BIG FAT EGO, people will likely be good EVEN if there are no religion around. There are many of today's great thinkers who propose that religions actually borrowed their morals from humans and not the other way round.Humans would have evolved themselves to extinction by now if they needed religious guidance instead of their common sense before they can differentiate what is good or bad for them. You don't need a religious doctrine to tell you that killing your kind is bad or helping someone is good.
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written by mawi, December 16, 2008 00:00:59
Cruz,

Frankly, I don't quite understand your view point which was narrated in a very philosophical manner against mine which are more laid. But I would like to add that religion must not be interpreted only through the atrocities of human misdemeanor but also from the goodness and the greatness it had bestowed not only on one's personal life but man kind as a whole, which had prompt me to conclude that Mr Aloysious is utterly confused. To say that religion has brought many evils in its wake does not run parallel to what God says in his books but to say that the evil being has promised to humans that it will continuously and tirelessly provoke humans into misleading his faith, by ways and means, is realistically and evidently true. Having said that, the test of one's faith is in Islam and not in any other religion and being a Muslim I can attest to this misery .

In Islam, religion is created by god with no beginning and no end.Theology is the arts and science of understanding the religion in the way and manner outlined . The evil ones prey on every single opportunities that lies on human weaknesses to go against the guidance through the blends of human compassion, simplistic minds and human logic which , more often than not, sums up to small victories against humans. This is often in the case of one's religion shaping his theology or vice versa when in fact it should be should be God that shapes Islam and its theology.

Islam in itself is wholistic and universal in that it is the basis of anything and everything that a Muslim does. It is definitely not an evolve culture stemming from those "primordial" laws of morality where it grants legitimacy to rulers/leaders of old and many politicians today is . It may be true for other form of religion being the foundation of "Laws" and "Politics", which manifests as "culture", and has evolved into societies, civilizations where there has always been a need for "spin doctors" of the "priestly class" to "explain" events and "signs" to inspire or allay the fears of the people (especially on matters that they cannot comprehend).This is not Islam as Islam comes to the Muslims without the need of such "spin doctors of the priestly class"

Tell me where in Islam does the religion defies your criteria of perfection when as a matter of fact its perfectness goes way beyond love/compassion, goodwill and the golden rule of reciprocity.

Its only in humans that imperfection prevails. The definition of perfection in human itself amount to as much as the whole population of the planet earth , non human included. Islam cannot be imperfect when Allah is . Islam is from Allah and it is perfect. This is mentioned in the Surah that god has perfected a religion -Islam for Muslims to pay strict adherence to. The imperfection is the adherece to it and it is measured by the level of imperfection not otherwise as the otherwise, as you had said it , is unachievable albeit the ideal. Hence, I concur that wholly knowing something, renders one's adherence imperfect but knowing something minimal or not knowing at all render imperfectness to its lowest level. A muslim whose ignorance over the consumption of pork would render his adherence completely imperfect while a muslim who knows the restrctions but do not know the reason why attain some level of perfection. A muslim who knows that consuming pork is strictly forbidden, knows the reason why, now has to come nearer to the level of perfection what with all kinds of pork based ingredients that is available n the market disguised in more ways than one.

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written by Admiral Tojo, December 16, 2008 01:22:07
Mawi,
major correction here. ISLAM is not a religion. For those who have succumbed to Arab corruption of the reading, it has become a religion. The ayat you are refering to mentions the DEEN as perfected by the Creator (not Gods of religions). DEEN is a state of being, paradigm devoid of rituals and dogmas. In the Book, religion is termed 'Syian, Syiatihin and its derivatives and NOT DEEN.

Wa lahmal khinzir - And meat rotten I see. No swine, pigs here. I am advised not to eat rotten meat. There is NO pork in this verse. So do not be so preoccupied with trivial issues that are NOT in the Book you idolise but not read.

Oh, one more thing, do stay away and be aware of Arab corruptions in the reading of the Great Book. What is a universal book of advises for all of mankind has been turned into a sectarian tool for bigots, racists and disbelievers due to these Arab corruptions. In 25:30, it is affirmed that the Arabs have put the Book aside and have never gotten the message, till today.

Salaam
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written by Milo, December 16, 2008 02:41:41
Mawi,

All religious followers believe their respective holy book cannot be wrong - and ONLY their version is PERFECT. And since the respective book each claim to represent very different versions of God's words, it would appear to my little brain that it cannot be that all carry the true words of God (assuming there is one version that is true).

Here are some of my commends:

1. Since all holy books make claims that they carry the true words of God, doesn't it makes more sense NOT to assume any statement attributed to God is true until they are examined critically and without bias? Would God not prefer this approach to finding his truth?

2. You are merely ASSUMING God is perfect. What if God turns out to be IMPERFECT? What's wrong with that? You are going to stop praying to him?

3. Does it make sense that an almighty, all loving God needs or even cares if his creation love or pray to him at all and would send those who don't do so to Hell forever? Isn't love unconditional? Or are these "beliefs" clues to show that God's so called preference are merely human projections of his desire?

Anyway, what is the great deal if we find some truths here and there in any of these holy books? You can find some wisdoms in practically all the books sold in MPH. It doesn't prove anything. The only difference is these authors do not claim theirs are words of God.

p/s: Admiral Tojo, your intepretations of Islam are by far the most admirable as it makes Islam a practical and sensible "religion" if what you state are true. If are muslims interprate Islam this way, the world will definitely be very different from what it is today.

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written by cruzeiro, December 16, 2008 11:40:52
I wrote earlier, refering to "religions", although not specifically to Islam:
".... culture which was their "deen"" and that the need for a priestly class (aka Ayatollahs, Imams, Priests, Gurujis etc) does exist, but is denied by mawi.
And also, mawi concurs that human understanding of anything (Islam, in this case) has to be flawed in relation to perfection.
Just becos something is from God, it doesn't make it perfect, though God may be, Mawi. After all God being the creator, everything is from God, and they aren't perfect (at least, as I see it)
How then is it possible for one to presume the perfection of any ideology?
That in itself would render what you presume to be perfect based on a verse in a book compiled through word of mouth and man's memory, "imperfect", doesn't it? Doesn't it then render your understanding of the truth in Islam as you know it imperfect as well?

written by mawi, December 16, 2008 00:00:59
"In Islam, religion is created by god with no beginning and no end."
"....but knowing something minimal or not knowing at all render imperfectness to its lowest level."
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written by Admiral Tojo, December 16, 2008 01:22:07
ISLAM is not a religion. DEEN is a state of being, In the Book, religion is termed 'Syian, Syiatihin and its derivatives and NOT DEEN.
============================================

Peace.
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written by cruzeiro, December 16, 2008 11:55:49
BTW Mawi,
Arabic isn't a "perfect" and divine language to be able to articulate perfection ... to render in perfect is to idolize it!
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written by mawi, December 16, 2008 14:01:41
Cruz,

Spin doctor of priestly class as in the existence of Ayatollahs, mullah or imam.In the Malaysian context, where Imam is a more familiar terminology, I do not deny thier existence, never did anyway but denial is more to your analogy that imam are those priestly class of people that we direly need to explain to us about Islam. Its not their role. Imam is a just someone officially or unofficially appointed to leads a congregation in prayers. I could be an imam to lead a prayer even to some wholesome strangers. Officially appointed imam must have certain requirement but anyone can be an imam to lead a congregation even a convicted criminal can. As for ayatollah or mullah, alien terminologies to me as alien as a kiyaia or tok guru to the Iranians or Pakistanis. We are guided by the Quran, , hadith Soheh and the Sunnah and even fatwa's issued is based on the three. No spin doctors or priestly characters.

Have you ever thought that the imperfection of human is the perfect creation of god. Human are perfectly created with imperfection for it to be call human as much as animals are perfectly created with its imperfection to be called the lesser beings to humans. Having said that, whatever God created, it is perfect. Have you ever thought how the lemmings would commit mass suicide in order to make room for the next generation to survive? God is truly great.

Hence it is perfectly appropriate to say that to err is human and to any ideology that stems from humans need not be pressumed perfect but rather adaptacious. A book compiled through word of mouth and man's memory would be imperfect if it is not authenticated but the Quran is perfect as every verse is authenticated hence perfecting the truth in Islam and this is said without any doubt whatsoever.

As for Admiral Tojo, who is overly obsessed with Arabs and arabic culture, and Milo, Allah has Surah Al Kafirun for people like you.

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written by apa jadi, December 16, 2008 14:20:09
If everyone is such a faithful believer in God and a religion human invented, there would not be a Hadron Particle Collider now. We might still be riding cows and camels. Thanks to the scientists and the European Governments.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t...=UKScience
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written by cruzeiro, December 16, 2008 17:51:50
mawi,
I thought we were created imperfect ...
I really don't know how you can go on denying the presence of "a priestly class" in Islam, although perform duties no different from those who are really declared openly as priests.
Have it your way, mawi.

You've got a very strange logic in defining imperfection as a perfection in itself.
So, I presume that my imperfection is a manifest perfection of God, and hence cannot be challenged as I'm perfect myself!
That's so cool, mawi!

Fantastic, mawi!!
You've made my day - thanks ... and Peace, mate!
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written by Milo, December 16, 2008 18:56:05
mawi,As for Admiral Tojo, who is overly obsessed with Arabs and arabic culture, and Milo, Allah has Surah Al Kafirun for people like you.
-----------------------

As expected, that's what normally happens what a blind follower of any religion loses an arguement - make threats in the name of their God by cherry picking some verses from their holy book. It is precisely this unreasoned approach in their world view which is why we have terrorists. "If we can't win them, threaten or kill them!" If imperfection is equal to perfection in your eyes of God's creation, one of the words is redundant. Only a hardsell salesman can reasoned the way you did.
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written by mawi, December 17, 2008 09:39:32
Cruz,

Nice knowing you too and I enjoyed your companion. Thanks anf we meet again in other forums ya.

As for Milo,

Obviously you are just assuming that I had threaten by cherry picking some verses and cast it upon you. Well dear, I only quote one verse and that verse that I had quoted is more applicable to ME rather than to you and if you don't believe me, read it and you will understand to whom the verse applies.
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