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Theology Versus Secularism PDF Print E-mail
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Friday, 31 October 2008 11:09

NO HOLDS BARRED

Raja Petra Kamarudin 

It appears like the Turkish Prime Minister is in trouble with Turkey’s court. They have accused him of being anti-secular, which is a crime in Turkey. They say the Prime Minister want to abolish or remove the anti-tudung law, which means Turkey’s citizens will no longer be forced NOT to wear the tudung. If you remember, recently, a Turkish lady Member of Parliament was evicted from parliament for insisting that she wear her tudung in the building. University student too must remove their tudung before they enter the university gate.

Turkey is on the other extreme of Afghanistan where the “religious police” would throw acid on faces of women who do not wear the tudung. 

Malaysia of 2008 is a far cry from Malaysia of 1958, the first Anniversary of Merdeka. Then, skirts and bare-backs were the order of the day and the tudung was a rare thing at best, the more “decent” Malay women would wear a selendang wit the front hair revealed. Today, women who wear bare-back clothes are arrested. 

What happened over those 50 years? Have Malays become more religious and more conscious of their Islamic duties? Over the last month, three women have been charged for corruption and fraud. All are pretty senior Malay government officers. And all wear the tudung. So, the wearing of the tudung can’t be equated with being more religious or being a better Muslim. If not, they would not accept bribes or cheat. Wearing the tudung is merely a symbol. It is a symbol that you are very Islamic. But this does not mean you really are. 

Malays, today, talk about restoring the Caliphate and implementing Islamic laws. In short, rejecting a Secular State in favour of a Theology State – meaning an Islamic State of course. But do these some people know what an Islamic State is? And do these people also know how the many experiments of Islamic States have gone horribly wrong and the new “Islamic” government was worse than the old government it replaced? 

In a nutshell a Secular State or Theology State is just a name. Names are not crucial. What is would be the function rather than form. Form must follow functions, and not the other way round. 

Let us examine some of the failed experiments. Some predominantly Muslim countries have flirted with the idea of changing their government and have discovered that the newly installed Muslim leaders were no better, or worse, that the “kafir” leaders. Millions have died because of this, Muslims killed at the hand of Muslims. 

Kurdistan, Afghanistan, Armenia, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Morocco, Sudan, Pakistan, Serbia, Gratis, Syria, Bosnia – just think of any country where either Muslims, Christians or Jews make up the majority population and I will show you a tragedy. No, theology is not the answer. We can’t solve problems by replacing a Secular State with a Theology State. History has shown us that, in fact, more damage is caused. The system is not the solution. It is those behind the system that matter. 

A year after the end of the Second World War the Algerians wanted the French Colonialists out of their country. The eight-year war led to the loss of more than a million lives. Both sides wee equally guilty of the barbaric killings where old folks, babies and women were not spared. Finally, in 1962, the French decided to go home. But until today the killings continue; except now it is not Muslims killing Christians but Islamists killing Secularists – and vice versa. 

The Turks too wanted the kafir out, so millions of Armenians were massacred. The Kurds were the willing servants to rape and murder the Armenians. This was ethic cleansing of the kind perpetuated by the Germans during World War 2; though maybe only a quarter in number died compared to the Jews. 

Later the Kurds were themselves exterminated by the Iraqis and Turks. And the same went for the Afghans where they first killed each other to establish an Islamic State and then the Islamic State killed off as many as the previous “kafir” state did. In Iran, too, more died in the new Islamic State than in the Shah’s “kafir” state.  

An Islamic State is no guarantee that you would get a good government. Neither would a Secular State. So it is best that the rhetoric and setting up an Islamic State be discarded and instead we focus on the issue of the setting up of a just state of whatever kind. 

We have seen too many deaths over the last 60 years, people killed in the name of Islam. Tens of millions have been killed. Two million in Afghanistan. One million in Iran. One million in Iraq. One million in Turkey. More than one million in Algeria. Many more millions in other Muslim countries. The list goes on.  

The Iranians say: those Iranians who died fighting Iraqis are going to heaven as the Iraqis are “kafir”. The Iraqis say: those Iraqis who died fighting Iranians are going to heaven as the Iranians are “kafir”. So, both Iranians and Iraqis are “kafir”. Or is it both Iranians and Iraqis who kill each other are going to heaven since both kill and die in the name of Islam? 

With all this killing and the tens of millions of deaths over the last 60 years, all the so-called “Islamic States” are nothing short of failed states whereas “God-less” states like Sweden are heaven on earth. 

Maybe you need to choose an Islamic State to go to heaven. But thus far all the Islamic States have proven to be hell. Maybe this is because they talk more about life after death rather than about life itself.  

READ ALSO: Turkish court says PM involved in anti-secularism

Comments (72)Add Comment
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written by red door, October 31, 2008 12:05:40
Really sad! sad! sad!.... In Malaysia, VVIPs are religious by mouth, but devil by heart! Another sad fixed court case verdict on a horrendous murder case involving VVIPs...



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written by Tompios, October 31, 2008 12:06:50
stop elaborate it! it makes me afraid. sure, if Malaysia will force to be an Islamic state status blood will spread all over the states. after those so called 'kafir' vanished then PAS and UMNO will bite and kill each other. that's make me afraid.
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written by Margeemar, October 31, 2008 12:07:29
Malaysia's growing racism and Islamic fundamentalism can be attributed to its education system. Very often you will find that ethnic Malay teachers from the Malay belt states of Kedah, Kelantan and Trengganu finding it very hard to to fit in in cosmopolitan Penang or Kuala Lumpur.These people can't accept non Malays and non Muslims as Malaysia's, let alone being equal. The worse of the lot are Government sponsored students who are sent to universities in the Middle East. These group comes back to the country and wants Malaysia to be another Saudi Arabia...More http://margeemar.blogspot.com

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written by cekikdarah, October 31, 2008 12:10:06
Reminds me of a CNN ad with Christian Amanpour, "....those who kill in God's name"

Will it be considered 'matlamat menghalalkan cara' that we allow massive killings for something uncertain in the end?

CekikDarah.com
http://www.cekikdarah.com/educ...iment.html
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written by JIVJAGO, October 31, 2008 12:10:31
If you want to operate any equipments a operating manuals is required as such the almighty had given us many of such manuals in different time and place for us to operate,follow n live peacefully on these earth.

Any bogus or wrong manuals will only create havoc and further damage the operating system.

Its for the right-minded person to follow the correct manuals and abide by it...if u know wat i mean.

cheers
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written by 98PercentPrimate, October 31, 2008 12:10:50
What we need is a higher human state.

This should be reflected in the proper connections of proper neural connections of the brain/mind. Else we are merely better-dressed outside but still a 98%-chimpanzee inside.
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written by Tompios, October 31, 2008 12:21:41
revenge will make world blind. killing for the sake of God's name is just like seek and hide games. but, unfortunately, this is no what i believe. those who are killing other human race because of beliefs differences are driven by god-Satan.

i don't think god to cruel and crazy to let his followers to kill other people when he himself called powerful nature. why should he uses third hands to do his job? i will not believe those gods who are really cruel and blood suckers! better for me to stop thinking about religion.

anyway, there is a benefit to stay on one religion when majority of the population belong to the same religion. hehehe...your kebajikan under concern by the religion authority. no need put too much effort to survive.
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written by arazak, October 31, 2008 12:21:49
But than, Malaysia is an Islamic state. . . , "Islam Hadahri" that is! This was proclaimed by the Grand Imam Hadhri himself, the PM! All the UMNO spin media also proclaimed that Malaysia is an "Islam Hadhari" country. Their spin media even boasted that this is the best form of Islam and all other Muslim countries should emulate Malysia's brand of "Islam Hadhari".

Under Islam Hadhari, their leaders are allowed to steal money from its' citizens and do corrupt practices without being punished. . .!

In an our "Islam Hadhari" country, an innocent man can be detained without trial just because he reminded the leaders of Islam Hadahri that he had robbed the rakyaat or, that the leaders are a racists. . ., or for no excuse at all!

Isn't Malaysia, ruled by predominantly Muslims. . . a great Muslim country?
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written by ahmadneil, October 31, 2008 12:22:29
That's why I don't face Mecca when I pray.I pray facing ANY direction. I don't fast.I eat whatever and whenever I want to and stop if I don't like. I don't look for the moon to celebrate Hari Raya. My wife don't wear veil.She wear scarf around her neck.

---------------

dear ahmadneil,

Consider yourself warned!! - MT admin (Labisman)
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written by truthbespoken, October 31, 2008 12:37:18
Islamic or Secular State? What does it matter? Why should there be an Islamic or a Secular State if the people are not happy? Why can't it be a Communist State or what other, other States? It is all hogwash!

Open up your eyes. Look at how some other states are performing without these harmful tags and labels. Just get on with uplifting the standard of living of the people and all will fall into place.

We should not waste our national energy on these unproductive matters about how to label the country. It's all nonsense! It is about living well and having a life one chooses..

Problems will start when some people impose theocratic views on others. That explains why life and its religious outlook have become so different in 1958 and 2008 for Malaysians.

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written by admiral Tojo, October 31, 2008 12:39:59
Those who wear tudung and believe that it is GOD's command, are disbelievers. Disbelievers of Quran, as wearing of tudung is NOT in Quran. Those who believe in the existence of Islamic State are also disbelievers of Quran. Islam is universal and does not belong to the Arabs contrary to most who think they are Muslims. They call people like me 'Anti Hadiths' but I call them as 'Anti Quran'. Take your pick. Norway, New Zealand are countries that live the values as presented in Quran. That is why these countries are peaceful- Islamic.

What I wrote above, however cannot be comprehended by those whose minds are enslaved and shackled by those who claim that they are GOD's representatives. There is no PRIESTHOOD in Islam. GOD is within me, closer to me than my jugular vein.

Ahmadneil seems to be one such true Muslim.

Salaam
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written by DontPlayGod, October 31, 2008 12:42:10
Over the centuries, people have killed for many reasons. People kill people when they conquer another country. People kill other people when they want to topple their Kings/Government to seize power. People kill others in what is now known as ethnic cleansing, because they can't live or see another race living near them or sharing their country, or being from another religion.

But the worst killing, in my humble opinion, is to kill in the name of God!!!!! And these religious killings are done with much fervour and fanaticism. When the first communist government was first installed in Russia, the communists called "religion the opague(opium) of the people". Of course, religious people everywhere were aghast at this classification. But now, looking back at all the barbaric killings and bombings done in the name of God, one wonders whether that phrase is wrong. In fact, if this goes on, people will be ashamed to be called "religious".

I have always maintained religion should be read with an open mind, and a pinch of salt. In the end, it is up to each individual to analyse and discern for himself what is what in religion, and to act according to his thinking as in the final day of reckoning, only he/she will be 100% responsible to his creator. Please bear in mind that all the religious scriptures were not written by the prophets nor approved by the prophets. And I am often amused by so-called followers quoting phrases word for word as if these are the actual words of God. Most of these scriptures were written many years after the death of the prophets(who deemed them as prohets?). In the case of Islam, as an example, the Koran was written 30 years after the death of the prophet(pbuh). And many of his followers have already died by then. The bible, too, was not written by Jesus himself but by his followers after His death. And do people take down notes as the prophets preached? Were there pens and notebooks then? As we know now, there were no notebooks, or pens then. If there were writing materials, people do not carry them around. And I doubt if they keep any writing material in their abodes, as writing materials were available to only a few elite noblemen. And followers of the prophets were not noblemen, but ordinary folks, most of whom were not educated then.

In a word, I can never be a fanatic of any religion. How can we be?
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written by justinlian, October 31, 2008 12:45:02
Everyone is going to heaven and heaven will be packed and sardined.
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written by Spear Bing, October 31, 2008 12:51:43
Malaysian Muslims will have to accept the harsh reality that as long as they continue to remain in 'denial syndrome'over the utter inefficacy of an Islamic State, they will continue to live their life in delusion and dysfunction.

The Muslim intelligentsia and the enlightened Muslims in Malaysia must surface and transform themselves from mere citizens to become stakeholders of the nation and initiate inclusive dialogues and earnest discussions to steer the Ummah towards a more sanguine and sober-minded outlook rather than getting too wrapped up in religiosity.
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written by DezMalaysia, October 31, 2008 12:54:30
Sounds like a piece of advice for the PAS Hardcores...

I am afraid the message wont get thru into their brains. Sad~
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written by Dominic, October 31, 2008 13:03:12
ha ha ha

Raja Petra ability to keep writing must be Pissing Rosmah & Najis no ends. Apparently they have ask Prison Authorities to check how come things still gets smuggled out and published.

We know religion is of the Heart and those who seek to use it to impose and gain Political mileage ought to Rot in Hell. No need to mention PAS and UMNO are the main Insulter of Islam. Curse them, their children and relatives who share this SICK Ideology to disease and sickness.

That said they should BAN the Call in Azan as a Pious muslim will know the EXACT Time to be in the Surau or Mosque. But Muslim have a problem with this discipline! Hope this Financial Crisis bring anger and Hunger to the people to wake up and remove UMNO-BN forever so as to Free up the media to RE-EDUCATE Malaysian again on Civilization!! UMNO-BN obviously Failed and Failed for 51 years and counting.
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written by chiongguo, October 31, 2008 13:18:05
RPK, that was an excellent piece.

Over the millenia religion had always been used by the power crazy to manipulate the masses. It is in fact a very convenient and efficient device and all needed to do is to associate whatever issues with it and we have created a string that the puppetmasters could use.

Islam, following the abrahamic tradition of having a set of rules and regulation to maintain order in the community had always argued that religion and politics are inseparable. Even so the history of such law and order as recorded in the old testament saw factions within the community fighting each other - each asserting that it has the support from God. One actually failed to see or even understand that these laws were given at a time where the jews were "lost" and had just came out of egypt. The circumstances are very different today.

The problem, as always, had never been with the religion but the people interpreting the religion....their motives had always and will always be less than noble, sooner or later, when power is involved.

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written by ahmadneil, October 31, 2008 13:48:54
Ones holiness is in thy heart not on the outside!Pray quietly, not blaring out from the 80 inches loudspeakers.
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written by teo siew chin, October 31, 2008 13:57:17
"...Form must follow functions, and not the other way round..."
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Be fanatical if one must - fanatical about truth, honesty, kindness, generosity, benevolence, protection of life, selflessness...
Anything less makes one a hypocrite, period.

I read somewhere "If there was really a God, he would have been disgusted with the word 'holy war."
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written by JIVJAGO, October 31, 2008 14:09:29
Out of many thousand among man one may endeavor for perfection and out of those who have achieved perfection hardly one knows ME in truth.

Cheers
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written by amoker, October 31, 2008 14:19:39
I love the word Kafir.

Start with Kafir, then if become a Muslim you are termed a mualaf. It is like the religion keep on segregating each other and can't accept differences. Thus a Haji look alike is better than a goreng pisang seller even if both are equally devious.
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written by Question Mark, October 31, 2008 14:27:29
Sorry to say this but my impression is all the killings might be due the muslims belief that they will get "pahala" if can convert anyone to Islam and if fails to do so eliminate the so called "kafirs".

Its like a salesman getting his commission for selling a car.
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written by Jit Dharma, October 31, 2008 14:29:52
"In the name of God ( Allah), the most compassionate and most merciful," begins the holy Koran.In order to be closer to God and His nature, these are the qualities that you most need to develope. Straying from this is to stray from our Godly nature and be prey to our lower human nature.A theology of Mercy and Compassion is what is lacking in Islam. It exists but is shouted out by the bogus claims and concerns of Political Islam, which is merely a means to acquire power and dominate. In other words the spiritual depth of any faith is dependent on the spiritual depth of it's theologians. If one sees more Form than Substance in any faith it is because of a lack of focus on the Substance.Spirituality is about Substance.
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written by quietguy, October 31, 2008 14:31:34
Correlation does not imply causation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C..._causation

Just because there are muslim women who wear tudung who are bad, does not mean that wearing tudung is itself bad.

Raja Petra, methinks being in ISA detention has finally started to affect your mind such that you are making such illogical arguments.
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written by Caramel, October 31, 2008 14:39:57
I just came back from a holiday in Bandung. I notice only 10 % of women over there wear tudung!!
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written by Jit Dharma, October 31, 2008 14:51:10
Mahatma Gandhi's simple act of riding in the third class compartment was motivated by his insistence in living his faith and his belief in opposing the bogus religion perpetuated by the Brahmins and their focus on rituals rather than actions.He was a devotee of the of the revolutionary teachings of Swami Vivekananda and Sri Ramakrishna who sought to rid India of the terrible effects of centuries of caste prejudice and return Hindus to the substance of eligion.That is action in accordance with Divinity.
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written by shepherdvoyage, October 31, 2008 14:53:58
Dear Pete

I am deeply impressed by your profound knowledge about Islam and the histories of the Islamic states in the world, and your audacity to speak up about the true values of your religion.

Misinterpretation or distortion of the teachings of a religion, the failure to truly understand its values and stricty uphold its doctrines by its disciples always have tragic consequences. History has already proven this over and again.

Any crime committed in the name of a religion is a blasphemy of that religion.

It is true that a peron's religious appearance is no guarantee of his or her conduct.
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written by Thinker, October 31, 2008 15:10:36
Just because there are muslim women who wear tudung who are bad, does not mean that wearing tudung is itself bad.

Raja Petra, methinks being in ISA detention has finally started to affect your mind such that you are making such illogical arguments.



Which is the line that RPK says wearing tudung is bad?

The thing I understand from his writing is that the tudung is just a way for some people to announce to the world that they are religious when, in fact, that is the last thing that they are.

Over the last month, three women have been charged for corruption and fraud. All are pretty senior Malay government officers. And all wear the tudung. So, the wearing of the tudung can’t be equated with being more religious or being a better Muslim. If not, they would not accept bribes or cheat. Wearing the tudung is merely a symbol. It is a symbol that you are very Islamic. But this does not mean you really are.


No where does it suggest that wearing tudung is bad.
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written by malaysianohope, October 31, 2008 15:36:28
In this country the party in power shows greed for ill gotten gains, contempt for the ordinary people and hypocrasy of the highest order. In doing so they claim they are closer to God and so display ritualistic tendencies, but in their heart are so rotten that it stinks to sky heaven. These are the sign of time when a nation is slowly being destroyed as if history repeats itself again & again. Remember the great Roman Empire.

To me "Substance Over Form" is a good yardstick in one's personal belief!
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written by cheekymate, October 31, 2008 15:54:30
Wear a tudung, perform haj to Mecca, pray five times a day or go to mosque every Friday...these are merely outward projections that you profess to be a Muslim. It does not reflect nor confirm that you are a true Muslim whose inner being truly believes in the good teachings of Allah.
For he who is guilty of his terrible sins, retribution will surely come one day. You can swear on the Holy Koran and vehemently deny all the accusations, just remember you might escape judgement on this earth, but hell is anxiously awaiting you.
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written by ASK4u, October 31, 2008 16:40:31
written by quietguy, October 31, 2008 14:31:34
Correlation does not imply causation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C..._causation

Just because there are muslim women who wear tudung who are bad, does not mean that wearing tudung is itself bad.

Raja Petra, methinks being in ISA detention has finally started to affect your mind such that you are making such illogical arguments.


I'm afraid you're the one making illogical arguments. I suggest, you read the article carefully before shooting at RPK blindly. In short, what RPK was trying to put across was not to harp to much on "forms" at the expense of neglecting the "substance". He just quoted 3 examples to prove his points. Unfortunately, in bolehland, the former appears to be the trend.

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written by Anti Relon, October 31, 2008 17:03:56
Bloggers may be interested in this site: www.freethinker.co.uk
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written by AsamLaksa, October 31, 2008 17:08:15
Like I said many times before, call it Islamic state, Pariah state, Communist state, Secular state, etc I do not care. What I care is for the state to practice good governance and protect and promote the human rights of the citizens.

I say, like RPK, it's all simply propaganda shouting Islamic state. I even asked a few commentators who do they really mean by an Islamic state. No one can give a good idea. The usual response is that Muslims must live in an Islamic way of life thus they have to support an Islamic state which helps preserves this lifestyle. Is that really so even when they have no idea about it?

What of secularist? I am also not a big fan of secularism but it is the lesser of evils. Why is that? Well, at least it promotes separation of state and religion. A truly secular state is blind in regards to faith thus ensuring one of the human rights freedom of religion.

However, I do not carry a banner saying I'm all for secularism. The banner I carry is "good governance" and "human rights" (human rights includes freedom of religion). If the pro-Islamic state proponents can show me that they would practice good governance and protect and promote the human rights of citizens, I would then be supporting them. It's the issues and substance I am concerned about, not the form.

As for Turkey they have gone the other way. I am against the ban on the tudung. It is the choice of the person whether they be Muslim or not to wear any tudung. This goes to show the problems of blanket ruling. Turkey has kind of lost the plot, it isn't about the form of government, it's the substance. There are still problems with their application to join the EU including how they treat the Kurds and the potential massive legal problems when they adopt EU legislation.

What of the view of the staunch secularist portion of Turkey? What is their motivation in restricting their freedom of choice? For that you have to look at their history and politics. I can only observe the irony that the Ottoman empire was one of the most successful Islamic civilisation yet today their constitution strictly prevents the re-emergence of an Islamic state.
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written by DontPlayGod, October 31, 2008 18:12:21
Before the 80's, Muslim Malay girls don't wear the tudung. Maybe only a handful at most. We can see them dressed in mini-skirts, tight jeans, and in make-up.

But, alas, all that has changed, when UMNO sent more and more students to study in West Asia. And leaders of UMNO, PAS began to become more extremist in their Islamic views.

Its a matter of time when Talibanism will grow in strength in Malaysia. PAS will then look like a group of angels, compared to these Talibans.
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written by Malaysiaputra, October 31, 2008 19:10:21
The name of Allah has be bandied about for personal gain and also in an attempt to "legalised" any act committed by the pepetrator .

Men have forgotten what Allah has told Moses among which is that " Thou shall not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain" .

But this has fallen on deaft ears as it allow muslims who do any unacceptable acts to feel that they are doing it for Allah which is a means of self justification to eliminate any guilt feelings.

It is obvious Allah does not need these puny men to defend Him but these men uses such excuse to justify their deeds.
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written by VIPER, October 31, 2008 19:34:00
Dear Margeemar,
I beg to differ. Some of my friends fm these states are Ustaz qualified fm middle east and they are not like that.
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written by kkselvam, October 31, 2008 19:40:45
What else need to be said by our YM RPK. If this moron UMNO government still wants to play religious and racial cards then, I just rest my case la.
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written by Kathy, October 31, 2008 20:00:49
My view on religion is very simple, some might even call it simplistic. I believe religion is a very personal thing. It is a pact between the individual and his/her maker. If the individual does anything wrong he will have to answer not only to the law but to his/her maker.
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written by miwaki, October 31, 2008 20:14:03
God doesn't punish people,He send you to heaven even if you create heavoc on earth.But before you go to heaven,Newton third law applies and you have to stop at hell for billion of years on the way to heaven.
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written by sydput, October 31, 2008 21:06:51
Atate that appreciates its citizens, uphold justice and thrive for righteousness is the state for me.
Isalmic state means slavery under the mullahs.
UMNO state means slavery under egoistic racists who thinks the citizens owe the leaders a living.
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written by Proarte, October 31, 2008 21:16:28
I think it is important to point out that Turkish women are free to wear the Tudung in public places or private institutions. The Prime Minsister Erdogan's wife after all wears a he***carf.

Overt religious symbols such as the Tududng are banned in government funded institutions as this is interptreted as flouting the Secular nature of governance in Turkey.

I think it is important for Muslims to be law abiding. If they feel ( many think wrongly) that the Tudung is an essential requirement of their faith, then they should not enter these government funded institutions. If they do, then they should bear the consequences of going against the law.

Dress codes are a fact of everyday life and affect everyone, and therefore Muslims should not see themselves as an exception.
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written by qwerty, October 31, 2008 21:16:32
"I want nothing to do with any religion concerned with keeping the masses satisfied to live in hunger, filth and ignorance."

~Jawaharlal Nehru~

How true...!!!
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written by 1351, October 31, 2008 21:37:09
Greetings RPK

We can analyse this "awakening/rebirth/born-again" to have religious dictates central to government and family structure a very recent development ie the AKP(Justice and Develpoment Party) in Turkey, the rise of Orthodox(ultra) Shas Party in Israel.

In M'sia, we can note the rise of PAS in similar vein. The increase of religious diktats that dominate daily life of its congregation - in effect turning Malays more pious in outlook.

It is a superficial facade RPK that you rightly observe - more tudung and less flesh and while a battle enfolds in Turkey ie Islamist vs Secularist, M'sians have move on beyond 'tudung' issues that is currently central to the battle for the future of Turkey.

I withhold my own reservation but offer to say, both AKP(Turkey) and Shas(Israel) draw support from the lowest strata of society, ones most heavily reliant on hand outs/welfare.

Shas in Israel, go to the bargaining table with the govt of Tzipi Livni(current PM of the fairer sex) with demands for increase in welfare and that the status of Jerusalem should not be broached in negotiations with the Palestinians as condition for throwing their support to Livni's Kadima Party. I can see PAS doing the same with their demands as condition when forming the next Pakatan Rakyat govt.

What the future holds RPK ? Rest well, keep faith - knowing that you are sorely missed by family, friends and all at MT.

Casper
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written by hellosunshine, October 31, 2008 22:10:36
Power corrupts. Absolute power (as in the case of UMNO/BN and the Taliban), corrupts absolutely.
Religion is the means and POWER is the end.
smilies/grin.gif
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written by Tlau, November 01, 2008 10:02:30
To me, wearing the tudung is a symbol that the lady's religion is islam. That's it. It does not indicate whether she is a good islamic or bad islamic.
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written by Arrow, November 01, 2008 11:36:26
Man should be judged by his ACTIONS not the crap that comes out of his mouth nor his clothes.
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written by batsman, November 01, 2008 13:08:36
I don;t know - is killing for money, influence or oil any better? Killing is man's work - the reason is just the excuse. Whether the killer gets away with it depends on whether the excuse is accepted or not. All these calculations occur in the minds of humans.
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written by batsman, November 01, 2008 13:16:57
In Algeria, when the Islamists won the elections, the army practised killing to protect secularism. Whose good governance and human rights were being protected?
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written by Taiping60, November 01, 2008 13:20:28
I think we are focusing too much on form rather than substance.

As I have said many times before, religion is a personal thing and it is between you and god. Of course eventually when the judgement day came, you will be dealt with appropriately.

In Malaysia, we politicise religion and because very good in it. This lead to people doing things based on what the law or the authorities want them to do instead of coming from their heart. Is this effective? Communist countries did that and did they create anything they can be proud of?

No we should change. Politicians should focus on developing the country. Make this country a place we can proud of. All press freedom and religion freedom. Allow people to choose what they believe.

If you put the country above yourself, this should be the natural step forward.
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written by batsman, November 01, 2008 13:22:29
According to some quotation, Nehru wants nothing to do with any religion that keeps the masses satisfied .... Was he willing to kill to save the masses from themselves?
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written by batsman, November 01, 2008 13:24:26
Secularism kills too. Secularism imposes its ideologies too. Secularism is not free from evil.
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written by densemy, November 01, 2008 14:35:24
In Malaysia its all about control. Islam is just another tool used by the powerful or would-be powerful to gain and maintain control

Islam is the perfect tool for the power hungry because it has brainwashed its followers from an early age to the extent that they are totally controllable.

For proof, just look at that 'upstart' RPK who missed out on the childhood indoctrination that is so much a part of Islam

The tudung is just a symbol of man's desire to control women... it has nothing to do with religion. Just look at those women who dont wear a tudung and you will find the reason
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written by Eskay Lim, November 01, 2008 16:00:59
For all those poor millions of people who had died fighting for their religions with promises that they go to heaven upon their deaths, the hard fact remains that their corpses remain buried six feet under the ground in the cemeteries scattered all over this planet.
What a waste.
Maybe in future fightings, the leaders who declare war and generals should lead their soldiers in the front line, like they did in historical times. Less deaths and sacrifices this way.
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written by sambal muncha, November 01, 2008 16:06:29
There's nothing wrong with theocratic states per se. It's just that the leaders tend to be endowed with too much control and power, without accountability or question, in the name of, and under the protection of "religious" edicts.

This dilutes the individual rights of John Citizen, and especially Jane Citizen.

Wassalaam.
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written by CheGUvera, November 01, 2008 20:27:07
I agree that Sweden is a "god-less" state, but having said that we have laws that strictly forbids any form of discrimination against any religion,race, culture or class. Last year Sweden took in 97,000 Iraqis(largest for any nation outside of Iraq neighbours), this year so far about 45,000 Iraqis and about 10-20000 Somalis. When the law is used strongly to protect the citizen of the country, it works. unlike here, after 51years there are EVEN more racial problem then 51 yrs ago. One dun need to ask why, everyone knows where the problem lies...a reason why ISA is now used.
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written by kawaafi, November 02, 2008 11:21:48
Salam RPK,

somebody aleady make the commet on algeria. your facts are wrong. Muslims win the so call democratic election fair and square. those who want to protect the secular states is the one who violate their democratic creed and hired fortune killers to do the killings of Muslims in that country. It is impossible for Muslim party to have won the election if all they do is killing people...

you also conevniently left out the story of people simply died fighting what they believe in. you want examples.. kemboja, 1.2 million died, vietnam experience 30 years war against the democratic secular USA back government, USA themselves had fought many wars; french, independents, civil and many people had died. how about tamil elam in sri lanka. why you only focus on Islamic state wars... people simply died fighting for their believe, be it theology or secular. so make your choice.

you may say ask why the muslims kill muslims after the 'enemy' is gone. the problem is the enemies of Islam would mot allow the country to be built on Islamic values. it is their worst nightmare if any of the state can rise and built an examplary state of an islamic state. so they infiltrate the country, sponsor the infighting within the country. so the world can see how unstable the islamic country is..

my problem is as always why can't we talk about freedom and not to exclude Islam or target Islam. All of us can fight for our rights but not Islamic rights. Everybody has the right to fight for their freedom but not Islamic freedom. It is my believe that if Islam is allowed to be free and have equal rights with everybody, it will fourish far and beyond our imaginations, but then you all will not like that eh...
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written by Crankshaft, November 02, 2008 12:52:06
Contrary to what most commenters seem to say, there is nothing wrong with wearing a tudung, if one feels moved to do so.

But being forced to wear it is wrong, and being forced NOT to wear it is just as bad. Religious convictions are personal and no one has the right to impose their beliefs on anyone else.
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written by dinosaur, November 02, 2008 13:11:35
Dear kawaafi,

You might have overlooked and misunderstood what RPK is trying to convey. He is trying to tell us that it is not necessary that an Islamic state will be better than a secular one. If the secular state is doing fine like what we lucky Malaysians are enjoying now, why do we want to change it into a non-secular like what our PAS brothers have for years aspired to do? There is always a high possibility that if Malaysia were to become an Islamic state, it might end up like what had happened in those countries RPK mentioned in his article. Dear kawaafi, don't forget to count your and my blessings for living in this Boelhland under the present system. (It could have been much better without those corrupted Umnoputras.) If it were to become one like Afghanistan, imagine your wives and daughters have to cover themselves with "purdah" and are not allowed to go to schools for education, your daughters end up marrying and becoming a mother at the age of 12 or 13, you and I do not even have the freedom to shave our ugly "janggut"... Gosh, I just cannot imagine that... Dear kawaafi, be wiser, read carefully and think deeper beyond what appears on the surface. Do not argue for the sake of arguing, and write something for the sake of just wanting to write something. God bless you and keep you with wisdom.
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written by Nice n Simple, November 02, 2008 14:51:18
I agree with Pete. Religion and Politics dont mix. Whichever religion one uses as a basis for running a country, is likened to the fundamental philosophy of Communism anyway. Everyone is equal, everything shared equally.

Have a nice day.
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written by apa jadi, November 02, 2008 19:34:18
Maybe this is because they talk more about life after death rather than about life itself.


This sentence summarises all about people doing all the bad things while living on earth, just to protect themselves a place in heaven. Is it what God wants? Will they secure a place in heaven living miserably and treating others miserably on earth?
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written by Liberace, November 02, 2008 20:36:55
Lesson from Iranians and Iraqis: live a sinner's life and make sure you kill someone in the name of God. Your ticket to heaven is booked. Real crap! Any God who needs us to do His dirty work for Him like believers are hired killers is not worth His salt. And I'll be glad not to go to this heaven filled with murderers.
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written by kawaafi, November 02, 2008 21:37:07
Salam Dinasour,

thanks for a kind response. I agree. may be our PAS bro had out jumped themselves for their quest for Islamic state when perhaps they and Muslim community as a whole are not ready or understand what Islamic State is all about.

All am asking is when we talk about freedom, Islamic freedom is included not excluded. When we talk about rights, Islam rights is well protected. PAS who carry the Islamic banner shall be respected for the Islamic values they carry with, Not treating them like some alien notions and bad for nothing terorist act etc etc.

What you said about Afghanistan is correct, but not because of their Islamic values per se. But because they are poor and much less educated than we are. It is not fair to equate adopting Islamic values would mean living like Afghani..

Of course I feel blessed living in this country with everybody, Chinese, Indian and other races with Buddish, Hindu, Christian and others. I wish all of us can have equal respect for each other, which I feel is lacking when the word Islam come into the picture. Atleast in this blog..
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written by Jit Dharma, November 02, 2008 22:22:20
Hello Brother Kawaafi, most of the negative responses to Islam come from a fear
that perhaps non-muslims might eventually be forced into excepting Islamic laws.
If Islam in Malaysia is seen as honourable by the example of those who practice it, there would be no such fears. PAS is welcome as a partner in the struggle to change the future of Malaysia. It must be a positive force that shows by it's actions that it can ensure the well being of all Malaysians. By simple acts of tolerance a great deal can be accomplished. Let it be that in the Malaysia of the future there be no need for both fear and coersion. Let kindness and compassion become the twin forces that raise our nation to greatness.Let the world see that unity is enhanced by these qualities.And let fear be a thing of the past.
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written by adamckteh, November 03, 2008 16:15:38
I say, no religion no war.
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written by DontPlayGod, November 03, 2008 16:37:17
ahmadneil wrote, quote:

"That's why I don't face Mecca when I pray.I pray facing ANY direction. I don't fast.I eat whatever and whenever I want to and stop if I don't like. I don't look for the moon to celebrate Hari Raya. My wife don't wear veil.She wear scarf around her neck.

---------------

dear ahmadneil,

Consider yourself warned!! - MT admin (Labisman)"

Could Labisman kindly explain why ahmadneil has been warned? Is what he wrote seditious?
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written by sambal muncha, November 04, 2008 07:00:53
Rape victim (13 y.o.) gets stoned in front of crowd in stadium, accused of adultery. This is based on their interpretation of the Syariah Law. Great isn't it?

See link below for story.

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/world/11637-somali-rape-victim-13-stoned-to-death-
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written by kawaafi, November 04, 2008 14:35:27
Here we go again..
It was indeed sad for a 13 years old girl to die after being rape. But then again there is dispute about her age, perhaps we should have her birth cert. But then again Somalia is one of the most impoverish country... perhaps they do not have birth certificate in the first place..
1. if it is true she is 13 yo and a rape victim, it is wrong to punish her for adultery. So it is an unIslamic act.
2. never in Islamic history somebody being punish for adultery with 4 witnesses.
So for some people to do it now is quite amusing (i do not what is the correct word to use here)
3. the famous story of somebody being stone to death during Prophet Muhammad pbuh time is by her own confession.
4. adultery is commited by two persons. only thru confession can only one partner end up being punished but not the other. otherwise, the 4 witnesses requirements will ensure there should be a couple of them being punish here.

is there ever a case where 4 good men had witnessed a couple having sex live, without having to do peeping tom, video, behind some screen etc etc, to justify the stoning. I just do not think so. If there is, then the couple really do not have no regard for any good values and overly being disrespectful of the good people and community around them. Then they deserve a severe punishment..
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written by dinosaur, November 04, 2008 22:01:44
Salam Bro kawaafi:
It might have happened like this. A man raped the 13 years old, and he was not alone. There were four other men who witnessed the act. Unfortunately, they joined in and raped the girl too. After that, the four turned devils and they casted the first stone. It was soon followed by the crowds and the poor young innocent girl died in despair. The four "good" religious men plus the crowd all said that she deserved to die because she indulged herself in adultery. The whole case would be closed later because it was carried out rightfully according to the Syariah Law. Only Allah knows the truth but the five men above pretended they did not, the crowds claimed innocent too because they followed others to carry out God's will.
Bro kawaafi, your logic and argument always sound funny to me. I wonder whether you are George Bush or Einstein. Both of them appear on the home page of this blog and they are only separated by a thin line. Cheers and regards. smilies/smiley.gif smilies/wink.gif smilies/cheesy.gif
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written by kawaafi, November 05, 2008 13:27:19
Dinasour,
according to your story the event is an act of the mob. mob act is always wrong. so it is wrong for you to attribute those act to Islam, even though the mob are Muslim.

What I describe is the presciption of Islamic ruling. In order for somebody to be punished, it must go thru an Islamic judge with fair representation. and both sides must provide the beyond reasonable doubt of proof. All I said is, it is imppossible for them to produce 4 good religious men as a witness to justify the stoning. that is why in Islamic history that never happen...
unless if the girl confess..

There is no logic to it. just facts..smilies/smiley.gif
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written by rainmanpj, November 05, 2008 18:55:28
Religion is between you and YOUR god and nobody else.
By using religion to rule a country with others who do not believe in YOUR god
will prove disaster. There are no country in the world where 100% of the citizen belong to the same god.
Even Thailand with 95% buddhists created a BIG protest when they try to make buddhism as the country religion.Even buddhists protested.
Buddhists believe Karma and you sow your own seeds.Nobody can help you,least of all GOD.
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written by kawaafi, November 06, 2008 01:46:47
Hi Rainmanpj,
I do not recall saying what Islam believe on something or what not and you must accept it. am only explain a judicial system prescribed by Islam. Kindly point out where it is not fair. Its up to you what you want to believe, and you can also keep it to yourself. Infact Islam will defend your believe for you. Islam prescribed that it is the choice for the non-muslim to choose what judicial system they believe in to be used to decide a verdict for their wrong doing. Islam will not force it on the non Muslim. Of course the non Muslim can not say I believe or choose no judicial system to cast the verdict on his or her wrong doing...smilies/smiley.gif

am responding to the post which I feel condenming Islam for the stoning to death a 13 years old girl after being rape. I explained that according to Islamic ruling history it is unprecedented for such verdict is possible without confession. Thats all..

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written by Ku Osman, November 13, 2008 10:39:35
RPK arguments are confusing the issues. Islamic states are being blamed for the killings when in fact they were ethnic cleansing, fighting for independence or territorial disputes. Many Muslims were involved and have used religion, rightly or wrongly, to justify their acts. In fact, the Iraqis at war against Iran were governed by a secular party.

Does this means theology (or religion) is not the solution? I agree that an islamic state and secular state are just names. But then I don't understand how come RPK named some muslim countries eg Kurdistan, Iraq, Algeria, Morocco and then conclude islamic states caused tragedies, all islamic states are failed-states and thus should not be pursued.

About the tudung thing, majority of scholars have concurred, based on their studies, that hair is part of the aurat to be covered. I know RPK has a different view and I respect that. However, from my observation in general, a muslim lady who covers her hair is likely to be more religious (or concerned about her faith or whatever that means) than one who does not. Of course, there are also many who covered themselves not because of true faith, and thus commit major sins but then that is another story.
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