A+ | A- | Reset
Home arrow The Blogs arrow No Holds Barred arrow Separation of Islam And Justice

Separation of Islam And Justice PDF Print
Posted by admin   
Sunday, 26 October 2008 00:53

NO HOLDS BARRED

Raja Petra Kamarudin

It appears like Yang Berhormat Zulkifli Nordin, a Member of Parliament for Kulim has put his foot in his mouth again. After his very embarrassing performance at the Bar Council recently, one would imagine he would have learnt his lesson by now. Yesterday Zulkifli said he does not care about anyone’s opinion and he only cares about Islam. He gives an impression that he is an Islamic Mujahiddin who fights for Islam and who fights to uphold Islamic principles.

They say those who forget history are doomed to repeat its mistakes and I do not know whether Zulkifli Nordin is a student of history or not, but maybe he should brush up on his history, in particular history concerning Islam before he next opens his mouth and embarrasses the party that he is representing in parliament, which is  Party Keadilan Rakyat. Party Keadilan Rakyat, as the name suggests, stands for justice. Islam and justice go hand in glove. You cannot separate Islam from justice or vice versa. 

Let us look at just the last 50 or 60 years of Islamic history and try to get a good idea on what happens when Muslim leaders try to separate justice from Islam. Let us look at Algeria in the 1950’s and the 1960’s when they fought against French colonization or French occupation of Algeria. Both sides, the French colonists and the Muslim mujahiddins perpetuated crimes against humanity, to use the current key word that is banded about.  Women were murdered. Women were raped. Children were murdered by bashing their heads on the wall. People were shot in cold blood and all sorts of crimes against humanity were perpetuated under the disguise of fighting for justice. What justice can there be when millions of citizens are killed in the struggle to gain a foothold in a territory? The French called it French territory and the Algerians said “This is free Algerian territory”  and they wished independence. But in the fight seeking justice many, many people were massacred. It was almost like an ethnic cleansing.

Eventually the French decided to leave. Charles des Gaulle, the French who went on to become the French president made a decision that it was no longer tenable for the French to hold on to Algeria and they decided to give Algeria independence. But did the killings stop? No. A secular government was set up and the Islamists not being happy, decided they wanted an Islamic government.  And the killing continued. This time it was no longer between the French and the Algerians but it was between the Algerians and the Algerians. And many Christians and many Jews were killed in the crossfire  as well. Recently the FIS which is an Islamic party, won the elections and the military immediately walked in and took over and sacked the government. The killing continues into its 3rd phase since the fifties and sixties.

Look at other countries, for instance in Iraq. When Saddam decided to oppose the Shia Islamic government of Iran, he moved his forces across the border and the 8-year war that  ensued resulted in 1 million deaths. 1 million Muslims, Muslims killing Muslims. And today those deaths continue as Iraqis now fight against the American occupation of their country. Hundreds of thousands of Kurds were killed even before the American invasion of Iraq. And these Kurds were massacred, they were gassed. And entire colonies and community of Kurds who are Muslims were killed by their own Muslim government. The list continues. Afghanistan has resulted in 2 millions deaths. At first it was Afghans killing Afghans. Then it was Afghans killing Russians and vice versa. And now it is back to Afghans killing Afghans.

More Muslims have died in the course of struggling for justice. More Muslims have died in Muslim killing Muslim then in all the other Muslim-Christian wars over the last 1000 years.

Zulkifli Nordin is an Islamist. He probably claims he has been detained twice under the infamous ISA. The ISA is a law that stifles freedom of speech and freedom of association and Zulkifli Nordin says he does not care about other people’s opinions. The ISA therefore suits him well because the ISA also does not care about other people’s opinions. Does this mean that Zulkifli Nordin therefore supports the ISA? If so, let him speak now and make his stand clear as to what he thinks about the ISA. It is strange that a person like Zul who raids the bar council and who makes statements that he only cares about Islam and does not care about anything else would have that kind of mentality.

Was it not Abu Bakar, the first caliph of Islam who took out his sword and placed it before him and said, if he deviates from Islam, to take his sword and cut off his own head? Abu Bakar was responding to a question from the floor where one of the followers of Islam asked how can  they be sure that Abu Bakar would be a good leader and will rule justly and will not deviate from Islam. And Abu Bakar’s response was, he offered his head to be executed with his own sword! That is a mark of a true Islamic leader, an Islamic leader who cares about other people’s opinion.

Zulkifli Nordin said he does not care about other people’s opinion. He is not a true Muslim and he is certainly not a true leader. He should redeem himself by resigning. Resign from the party and remain an independent candidate just like Ibrahim Ali who said he supports the ISA. Better still, Zulkifli Nordin should resign his seat in Kulim and allow for a by-election so that we can see whether the voters would like to continue to vote for a member of parliament who does not care about other people’s opinions. Zulkifli Nordin is a disgrace not only to Parti Keadilan Rakyat but also to Islam. A member of parliament who does not care about other people’s opinion should no longer remain a member of parliament.

Comments (193)Add Comment
...
written by apasalahku, October 26, 2008 00:59:12
dudes's an UMNO mole. Quite obviously, 'resign' and 'principles' are not part of their vocabulary.
report abuse
disagree 9
agree 250
...
written by michael chick, October 26, 2008 01:06:22
Sorry lah, the image has nothing to do with ISA... [MT-Law]
report abuse
disagree 11
agree 48
...
written by biggun129, October 26, 2008 01:09:36
ISLAM = JUSTICE = NO TO ISA !!!
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 126
...
written by justice, October 26, 2008 01:17:51
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 332
...
written by cheemengwong, October 26, 2008 01:22:21
Islam = Justice for All
Islam # Justice for UMNO

Islam = Faith and Religion for Many type of race
Islam # Faith and Religion for Malays

Islam = Peace, Love and Consideration for All
Islam # Selective practice and favours for some only.

Therefore, practice Islam with dignity and pride by following the basic.
report abuse
disagree 5
agree 116
...
written by Motherchell, October 26, 2008 01:23:13
So good to hear from you Pete! you not only give the impetus to live -- you string me on the heavens of freedom ,justice and righteousness!! you give the meaning to live another day . Pl take care of yourself well my friend !! Our hearts are with you at each ticking second!

Back to Zul,--- one ,is he is a product of the Curricula of the 50 years. He not only is a misfit as a representative of the people -- he is a contagious virus of the third kind. Wonder what he did in school , law school and the upbringing he had . Yes i fully agree Pete!

""Better still, Zulkifli Nordin should resign his seat in Kulim and allow for a by-election so that we can see whether the voters would like to continue to vote for a member of parliament.....

The shocker was the way he described himself in Parliament in the expression of the no speaka English style -- like left right center etc . So much for his law studies.

A vaulting suggestion : he should be sent to Afghanistan for a month , im sure UMNO can do this -- why Taiwan farming to plant kangkong?? Im sure Zul will return a refreshed young man without a tongue,ready to go into cultivation of humanity. This bigot has so much to learn about Islam and its values . He is a total shame to the religion!!!
Take care dear Pete.
report abuse
disagree 5
agree 179
...
written by Pangkis Pangazou, October 26, 2008 01:32:45
A bigot such as Zulkifli Nordin is the real reason why we Malaysians cannot move further forward as far as inter-racial or inter-religious relations is concerned. As long as this type of bigotry exist in our society, then a truly united Malaysian race will never materialize. It is a sad situation indeed. I wonder how did DSAI ever made the mistake of choosing this bigot as candidate for PKR? If PKR stands for "Keadilan" then DSAI should just sack him from PKR.
report abuse
disagree 4
agree 196
...
written by arazak, October 26, 2008 01:35:34

“Was it not Abu Bakar, the first caliph of Islam who took out his sword and placed it before him and said, if he deviates from Islam, to take his sword and cut off his own head? Abu Bakar was responding to a question from the floor where one of the followers of Islam asked how can they be sure that Abu Bakar would be a good leader and will rule justly. . .”
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Geee. . ., I wish the Grand Imam Hadhari or, the future PM Najis (hopefully not), would have said what Caliph Abu Bakar had said. . .!

. . . Do you know what I am thinking???
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 63
...
written by Motherchell, October 26, 2008 01:44:11
Zul take note that in this Intelligent World of learning : truth, justice ,and debate is the cornerstone to every growth of your grey curls ! Either you are a born idiot or a bigot by nature. You wont have the miles to go forward. Take for example here below as how we blog : Its statutory,

None of our team members is a Muslim or a Jew. All our articles which make reference to Islam, are vetted by at least one Islamic scholar of very high standing and from a religious body. As such we stand to be challenged by any Islamic scholar from Malaysia or elsewhere, on the content of the article, as regards to Islam. With due respect and high regards to Tok Guru Nik Aziz Nik Mat, Mursyidul Am Pas, we will exclude him from this statement that we jointly make here. http://sjsandteam.*********.com/category/general/

Zul when you read these kinds of statements, do you have the guts to challenge ????? No you cant !! the same way your friends in Jakim do ! , because you dont have the stuff that ticks upstairs !! In the same vein RPK challenged any Imam to counter all that he wrote! ---- none of you could take the challenge because to you guys , all that noise in the talk in front of a camera was more important to mesmerize the innocent gullible Malays to gain support. In fact you should apply for the UMNO Presidency. You seem to have the same scales on your body!! Very little grey stuff is needed here zul!!!
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 106
...
written by Motherchell, October 26, 2008 01:59:14
Zul! if you were a non living thing we could recycle you the way we missed you on the Quality control line. But sorry !we have to discard you deep into the earth for a Richter to destroy you for good now!
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 53
...
written by Ben, October 26, 2008 02:17:12
Why does DSAI not take the cue and do the necessary. Is PKR already so bogged down with aspirations and unfulfilled dreams that it has mistaken a tree for the forest? What disciplinary actions have been taken for the intrusion into Bar Council meeting?

If DSAI cannot deal with such an obvious case of insubordination and disregard to racial harmony, then how will it handle future indiscipline? Zul continues to stir the racial cauldron as if there is no consequences to his baseless threats and hypothesis. Please stop, we want a peaceful transition of power, not mindless religious fanatics. There is room for every Malaysian including Zul, without having to trample on other people's rights.
report abuse
disagree 7
agree 79
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
...
written by boeytahan, October 26, 2008 02:49:11
Dear Pete,

I'm just overwhelmed cos' you're in Kamunting and commenting in NO HOLDS BARRED. People like you RPK would live a long life. Ha Ha Ha! I just can't describe it in words....really.

We, MT members are always with you wherever you are. The candlelights are still burning brightly untill you're being proven innocent by those tyrants. Without your continuity in blogging, look just how our country is just going into the drains and flowing into the open sea. We do not want that to happen. That's absolute!

DSAI, PAS, DAP and we all are hand in hand with you great PETE!
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 61
...
written by DXB2008, October 26, 2008 02:49:48
Democracy means we can allow different opinions and live in diversity. We may nor agree with others' opinions but we cannot also impose our opinions on others through force or laws. And the latest news is Ayah Pin is now back to earth to support umno candidates!! http://1426.********.com/2008/...lihan.html
report abuse
disagree 1
agree 18
...
written by Rigi9, October 26, 2008 03:11:27
Dear Friends,

I'm not a Muslim & don't intend to be one. But I read the Quran when I was still a young (am 50 now). And if anyone wants some insight into Islam please read "No god but God" by Reza Azlan. All religions are the same if one carefully analyses them.....politicians the world over & the years over, have RAPED these beautiful religious teachings & used them for their own needs.

report abuse
disagree 3
agree 77
...
written by Rigi9, October 26, 2008 03:17:10
Dear Chipon,

You say Islam is fair & I belive that. But why do you say you have to defend Islam at all costs ?? I believe Christianity & Hinduism & Buddhism are also fair & should be defended....should we all fight then ??
report abuse
disagree 9
agree 117
...
written by Desert Fox, October 26, 2008 03:19:57
Quran 30:29 " Indeed the wicked follow their own opinions without knowledge "
Quran 22:46 " Indeed it not the eyes that go blind; it is the hearts inside the chests that go blind "
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 39
...
written by Navigator, October 26, 2008 03:24:13
RPK,

We are happy to hear from you. We hope you will be released soon.
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 54
...
written by kennyeu, October 26, 2008 03:31:39
RPK,

We are very, very happy to hear from you. You breathe fresh life into MT and as usual, you are absolutely right.

A member of parliament who does not care about other people’s opinion should no longer remain a member of parliament.

report abuse
disagree 1
agree 57
...
written by FFT, October 26, 2008 03:57:20
report abuse
disagree 12
agree 83
...
written by Braino, October 26, 2008 06:50:45
So good to hear from you, RPK! Hope you are fine and please know that our prayers and thoughts are always with you and your family!

I am amazed at your depth of knowledge in Islam and you put many so call defenders of Islam to shame. Finally, a breath of fresh air after all those stale air circulating and suffocating us of late!

Take care and may God bless you and your family!

"When evil rules, goodness and justice will prevail"
report abuse
disagree 1
agree 54
...
written by coolandy, October 26, 2008 06:53:50
UMNO has Nazri. It also has Bung Mokhtar.

PKR goes one better than BN. It has a Nazri Bung Mokhtar 2 in 1 in the form of Zulkifli Nordin. It is truly unbelievable that a man who claims to truly fight for Islam does not even fully understand the word Allah.

He makes a perfect recruit for some religious fanatics.

PKR has to excise this tumor before it consumes the host.
report abuse
disagree 5
agree 87
...
written by ploon, October 26, 2008 06:57:37
Right on, Pete! Write on. It is great hearing from you. God be with you and your family and may you be reunited soon. May we all be reunited with you soon.
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 28
...
written by varvoom, October 26, 2008 06:59:05
Zul! You are in the wrong game; you should be a mullah in Afghanistan, Pakistan or even Iran with your religious brethren cultivating opium to poison the world! Wrap your women in a loin clothes with no rights other than satisfying your animal lust! Zealots like you have no place in a civilize world. Resign before you are sack! We are human which make mistake and you are one mistake and a half!
report abuse
disagree 4
agree 60
...
written by liberal, October 26, 2008 07:13:56
Dear Pete,
Millions of Malaysian had answered to your call to vote for opposition during March 8 election and Zul being elected as a result of the call. We, the Malaysian (don’t really have to bother whether we are Muslim or Non-Muslim) hereby call upon DSAI to sack this rascal and religious fanatic out of PKR. Failing which, PKR is no different from BN and didn’t warrant the Malaysian supports.
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 70
...
written by Krepot, October 26, 2008 07:45:00
Well said!
Make you stand, let it be known.
Else - resign and go independent!

Better still, quit and let the people decide if they want such a leader
who 'does not care about others opinions'.
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 46
...
written by overseaMas, October 26, 2008 07:46:28
Dear Zul .... shame and sad to said that you need to back to school ... first lesson ... learn to love and care
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 33
...
written by Atheist, October 26, 2008 07:56:50
I do not know about this, RPK. Maybe you dislike this Nordin fellow but I have always tried to separate Islam from justice, politics and business.

This is why Malaysia has so much problems. Look at Turkey ...!!! smilies/wink.gif smilies/wink.gif smilies/wink.gif smilies/wink.gif
report abuse
disagree 9
agree 18
...
written by macanhitam, October 26, 2008 08:11:00
while everyone in Pakatan wanted ISA to be abolished, Zul wanted ISA to be used. In that case why not Zul take over RPK's place in jail since he liked ISA alot. I would love to see RPK debating against Zul once RPK was released. I bet RPK can easily throw a plonk in that Kulim boy's face.
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 43
...
written by Hope4all, October 26, 2008 08:38:07
RPK, always a class above the low-level and sometimes illiterate thinkers who only take advantage of the populist twist.
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 21
...
written by hellosunshine, October 26, 2008 08:38:58
Dear Chipon, you are a bigot just like Zul Nordin Top. You are saying the other races are pendatangs as M'sia is a host country. I'll bet my bottom Ringgit that your roots are most likely Indonesian or Indian.
smilies/grin.gif
report abuse
disagree 8
agree 86
...
written by BennyG, October 26, 2008 08:44:33
Zul stands for one of the main reasons why the Rakyat rather vote anyone except BN. If PKR does not want to take action against Zul, then let the Kulim voters decide. Let the by-election happens.

Someone said that silence meant condonance. I did not hear anything from DAP & PAS on Zul's second outburst.
report abuse
disagree 5
agree 37
...
written by fergie, October 26, 2008 08:59:50
God Bless you, RPK. Please read more from supporters of RPK and Justice at http--sjsandteam.*********.com.webloc
report abuse
disagree 1
agree 14
...
written by malaysianohope, October 26, 2008 09:04:22
Dear Abang,

Hope you are in good health!
I do share your thoughts about bigots & racists and I certainly am in agreement about individuals who professed to be holier than thou but cannot accept people of different beliefs and religions, just like you and me. If GOD is a racist & a bigot than I would not accept Him as my GOD.
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 34
...
written by born2reign, October 26, 2008 09:08:18
Dear chipon,
It's true, we Muslims have to defend Islam at any costs, even our own lives. So what he said was true.

Off course we must be fair. Islam is fair. Islam still allows non-muslims to live and carry out daily life in Muslim states. Islam allows non-muslims to drink alcohol, go to disco clubs and have pre-marital sex among them. Non-muslims can still have those while being in a Muslim country.


You are a hypocrite. I have yet to see any Islamic group have a gathering in front of Putrajaya demanding for the heads (or resignation) of Mahathir, Muhammad Taib, Thamy Chik, Najis, etc for drinking alcohol, going disco and extra marital sex, in addition to murder, corruption, fraud, oppression of natives, etc.

In your definition of fairness, the non-Muslims can drink and be promiscuous and not get any punishment from the Islamc authorities, while Saifool consented to sodomy, no one hs stoned him yet, recent Eurocopter and submarine corruption, none of you representing Islamic interests has stormed into Najis' office to demand him being sacked. You just looked the other way. Botak Albar arrested women and child, you pretend not to know. Why are you Muslims tolerrating injustice?

Until the day I see you and Zul instil justice and be as disgusted with the "Muslim way of life of UMNO" as you are with Bar Council discussing the plight of victims of Islam, as far as I'm concern you are NOT A MUSLIM AND MERELY A KULI FOR UMNO aka Lucifer. Clean up your own backyard before you pretend to be a Muslim. Muslims do not live the Islamic lifestyle.

In the meantime CUT THE CRAP THAT MUSLIMS ARE JUST & FAIR.
report abuse
disagree 9
agree 151
...
written by June, October 26, 2008 09:17:49
Yes Pete, you are right. Zul should just resign or join UMNO. Nowadays he speaks like one of them already. Why stay in PKR? If I were DSAI, I would have just kick him out!!

Anyway Pete, really nice to hear from you again. We are all praying for your health and early release.
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 41
...
written by DreamLady, October 26, 2008 09:18:50
Zul, I empahsize: you need to have your head checked. You are a man without a soul, let alone without a religon; let alone being the follower of Islam.

Look yourself in the mirror before you throw your weights as a knowlegable Islamic scholor. By the way you conduct yourself, your every move reflects the image of a tin kosong that makes so much noise.

Get the hell from our faces, we hate you hear or see the likes of you!!
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 42
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
...
written by Ali Cordoba, October 26, 2008 09:29:01
http://www.worldfutures.info/A...sians.html

Pas offers non-muslims the olive branch...even supports Hindraf. Wat say thee?
report abuse
disagree 5
agree 13
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
...
written by Kampong, October 26, 2008 09:34:16
Pete the true Muslim is showing the fake Muslims what a bunch of fools and hypocrites they are. And they put him in jail without trial because he insults their fake religion.
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 28
...
written by ireneyow, October 26, 2008 09:45:40
What does it mean that non-muslim can still drink alcohol and go disco. Friend this is a multi racial country and muslims has their own believes and ways of living while the non-muslims has their own believes and ways of living. In Malaysia we should not be told that the muslims are giving previleges to the non-Muslims or vice versa.

WE ARE MALAYSIANS AND LETS TALK AND ACT MALAYSIAN.

What Pete wrote is THE TRUTH NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH.
report abuse
disagree 4
agree 61
...
written by Franky, October 26, 2008 10:10:30
RPK, indeed I am very Happy to hear from you again and hope that you are fine.Somtimes, I do feel sad not being able to do much for you. Well, belive me most of the Malaysian are with you, so do stay strong.

Before the election.I did read a bit about this fella " Zul ",thinking that he was quite OK and read his blog occasionally ( but now I have it removed, simply wasting ones' time to read ). As time passes by, he really really makes me sick because of behaviours. What I can say here is how can a " Religious Extremist " be a Politician, Leader. He had better get his "brain" overhauled asap. As to why DSAI has not dealt with him till now, I believe there must be a reason, we just have to be patient.
Lastly, I pray that this "Zul" fella will just disappear from our daily life, as I do not hear news about him.
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 26
...
written by Taikohtai, October 26, 2008 10:12:05
Religions have always been hijacked for self interests since time immemorial.
There will always be extremists in all religions. To kill in the name of peace and love has been a trademark of too many cults masquerading as mainstream religious organizations.
But those who have transcended the worldly meaning of their holy books are blessed indeed. I can count RPK as one of them. I totally agree with him that he should only be concerned with what comes between him and his creator. Hence, ISA II has NOT changed his thinking one bit. Botak must surely know that but being a mere mortal who thinks he is dishing God's wishes, may his ALLAH has mercy on him when his time comes.
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 13
...
written by hanisma, October 26, 2008 10:17:09
Zulkifli, you are nothing but a bigoted, narrow-minded Muslim fanatic - a digrace to all PR Muslims! Is it because you have become the MP, then you dare expose your true colour to the people who had elected you? Your mind must have been disarrayed because of your position in PKR. You aren't a genuine Muslim as what your voters thought you to be earlier. Get out of PR ASAP!!
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 25
...
written by ASK4u, October 26, 2008 10:18:36
Zulkifli Nordin should resign his seat in Kulim and allow for a by-election so that we can see whether the voters would like to continue to vote for a member of parliament who does not care about other people’s opinions. Zulkifli Nordin is a disgrace not only to Parti Keadilan Rakyat but also to Islam

Take note Nordin Top.

Anwar, PR principle of multiculturalism should be above short term gains. In the long run, people will remember PR as a strong principled party. Don't be afraid of temporary lost. PR will have secured a place in the hearts of all peace loving Malaysian if you do the right thing now!
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 20
...
written by gorshan, October 26, 2008 10:25:13
dear ali cordoba, explain this to me.how come the most glorious moment in Islam always correspond with the darkest moment in the rest of humanity? look at the history of India to see the cruelty inflicted on India by Muslim marauder,the rape and murder and beheading and desecration of house of worships,conversion of house of worship to mosque,e.g. babri mosque,the taj mahal,destruction of books of knowledges,plagiarism of books of ancient knowledges of science,health and astronomy into Arabic. were this the most glorious moment of your religion? . do not blame the non Muslim for having a warped or skewered view of Islam for Islam's image today are the result of the actions of muslim past and present.

i believe RPK is right and you are wrongsmilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/angry.gif
report abuse
disagree 8
agree 48
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
...
written by ahmadneil, October 26, 2008 10:32:34
Dear Pete,
This guy is super human.His name is RPK.Even In Kamunting Camp he can blog.The guards there have been instructed by Syed the rotten egg to search high and low for his laptop but till now they failed.He must have a invincible PC.Thanks to the latest invention.They are still living in stone age.Ha Ha.
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 32
...
written by chiongguo, October 26, 2008 10:40:44
Ali Cordoba wrote :

Not true. The number of Muslims died in the Crusade of the Christians in Arabia is untold! The number killed in Spain after the Muslim gomen was overthrown..is enough to cover the world's every inch with blood..


Oh deluded one. What you would do to "substantiate" your false beliefs. During the crusades the muslims and christians fought with swords. Today we have machine guns. To extrapolate it to "cover the world's every inch with blood" would make your belief credible but you are only fooling yourself.

There were many crusades and to claim victimisation would be a tad insincere. Many muslims killed many christians just as many christians had killed muslims.

When the facts presented do not agree with your deluded self you would claim AFP or AF had a credibility problem.

As the koran said "you become blind not from the eyes but from your heart."

report abuse
disagree 6
agree 54
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
...
written by justinlian, October 26, 2008 10:45:40
It is a fact that most people read half way and only very little people read the whole book.
For people read halfway, they thot they know all about religion but actually they know nothing.
Every religion, there is love and compassion and it is the same teaching but different langauges.
report abuse
disagree 0
agree 14
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
...
written by macaufan, October 26, 2008 11:04:44
Zul,
takut kerana salah, berani kerana benar ! kalau benar & u got d points, y not debate in Bar Council forum? tak perlu buat bising, kacau & behave like a sakai there! kerana kau takut ! takut kerana SALAH !
if u r a true muslim, fight like a gentlement ! u claim urself a lawyer kah? behave macam monyet gila !
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 32
...
written by potblack, October 26, 2008 11:06:21
Abang Petra,take care and will pray for you.
report abuse
disagree 1
agree 13
...
written by allmenarebrothers, October 26, 2008 11:22:16
Zulkifli
Your heart is so filled with hatred & anger against others who are different from you that you don't deserve to live in our world of rich diversities.
We pray that the good Lord will surely take you home very soon because he loves you more than the rest of us.
Priase HIM mightily for his grace, favour, mercy & divine justice fairness.
Let HIS mighty hands touch your heart.
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 18
...
written by educationist, October 26, 2008 11:22:21
Dear RPK,
U're really thumping your nose at those UMNOputras, aren't u?
Hats off, to u, my fren for though u know me not, u are a true fren!
As anyone educated about world history know, the Crusaders are a dark side of Christianity.
But that's not the point u want to put across, that's for another story another time.
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 7
...
written by freesby, October 26, 2008 11:26:50
Wow, just seeing his article posted on M-T is enough to put a smile on my face.
ROCK ON, Pete! Ban me all you want but I'll still put on the shirt loud and proud!
report abuse
disagree 1
agree 12
...
written by gorshan, October 26, 2008 11:52:28
dear Ali Cordoba,now you know why you and RPK are a world apart.you went off a tangent and became hysterical at the smallest slight whereas RPK will have coolly done a rebuttal point by point and explained why my view is either wrong, shallow or lack of insight.he has single-handedly done wonders for the image of Islam which has suffered poor PR in the west. and he got ISAed for his good deed.

two wrongs does not makes a right.your description of Algerian kids being skinned alive by the Crusader can be equally matched with the history of Punjab where babies were being thrown into the air to land on swords,babies chopped into pieces and forced fed into the mouths of their horrified mothers, of children being entombed alive,of men and saints being sawed in half and boiled alive,all for their refusal to embrace Islam.

you and me can go on trading barbs on MT for eternity and this is not going to solve anything. what we can do is to accept the fact that all religions, no matters how great it followers claims itself to be,all has history of skeletons in the closets.

do not attempt to portray me as anti Islam. my religion taught me to respect all religion as all religion are from God. all i have done is to point out the cruelties done in the name of religions.

and you can do with a little growing up. smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/angry.gif
report abuse
disagree 8
agree 61
...
written by cheekhiaw, October 26, 2008 11:53:37
With so many idiots fighting for Islam, what Islam needs is more fighters against idiocy...

xxx
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 22
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
...
written by cheekhiaw, October 26, 2008 12:09:31
Salam,

People have all the right to defend whatever they want to defend as long as they do not infringe the rights of others to theirs.

So, what are you going to do to defend Islam against the idiots in Islam?

Don't tell us there are no Muslim idiots around.

xxx
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 25
...
written by Apache3, October 26, 2008 12:14:45
Pete, I had tears seeing your little pic of you with the famous pipe and beret. How I wish you were with us in person rather than in sprit. You WILL be free soon, GOD willing.

Now comming back to this zul character.
ZUL RESIGN FROM PR AND THEN AS MP AND THEN DANCE TO THE TUNE OF UMNO. WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO PROVE?

ZUL YOU CAN NEVER MATCH YM RPK IN WHATEVER FORUM IF YOU DECIDE TO TAKE ON HIM.

I am one of those who believe that spiritual progress is a rule of human life, but the approach to perfection is slow and painful. If a woman elevates herself in one respect and is retarded in another, it is because the rough trail that leads to the mountain peak is not free of ambushes of thieves and lairs of wolves. - Kahlil Gibran
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 14
...
written by cheekhiaw, October 26, 2008 12:28:00
What Kahlil Gibran perhaps didn't notice is that some people would rather not reach the peak but join the thieves.

Perhaps that can be explained by Mr Gibran being from a greater culture than that based on crooked knives we have in Malaysia.

xxx
report abuse
disagree 1
agree 8
...
written by RumahPanjai, October 26, 2008 12:30:06
This Zul who loves medieval islam should be riding a camel backward into the Arabian desert. What a hypocrite.....on a motorcyle! Third time in Kamunting for him may wake him up hopefully.
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 17
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
...
written by kennyeu, October 26, 2008 12:42:56
Ali Cordoba, all I get from you is a person who has put himself on this high, high pedestal who thinks very highly of himself, flexing your knowledge and trying to belittle as many people as you can on the way. Yet out of all your show of self proclaimed vast knowledge and wisdom you've missed the heart of RPK's point completely.

RPK's fight is to bring reason, humility, fairness and a sense of justice back into Malaysia. There is so much abuse of power and actions targeted at dividing the people of Malaysia under the veil of religion and because religion is seen as a "sensitive" issue anything raise in the name of Islam is automatically incontestable. RPK is saying this is bullshit. What all these individuals are hiding behind this veil of Islam has nothing to do with Islam. A lot of it actually goes against the essence of the teachings of Islam. At heart RPK is trying to break through this charade... this lie being played out in front of the Malaysian people. If we all follow RPK which is the voice of reason, the voice of humility, we may one day achieve true peace and justice in Malaysia and unjust laws like the ISA would be repelled for what they are.

If we follow your wisdom Ali Cordoba, you'll have Malaysians killing Malaysians in no time. You're not even in the same league as RPK. Don't even fool yourself.
report abuse
disagree 6
agree 46
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
...
written by Vivarium, October 26, 2008 13:19:52
Chipon, you claimed :
"Off course we must be fair. Islam is fair. Islam still allows non-muslims to live and carry out daily life in Muslim states. Islam allows non-muslims to drink alcohol, go to disco clubs and have pre-marital sex among them. Non-muslims can still have those while being in a Muslim country. "
Chipon, you are another bigot. Are you suggesting non-muslims are at the mercy of the muslims in Malaysia? Get out of your nutshell and you will find that alcohol, disco fun ,pre-marital sex and drug abuse are not monopolised by any particular religious group. Malaysia does not belong to Muslim, It belongs to Malaysians. You should feel grateful that Malaysians have accepted Islam as the official religion.
By the way, can you swear on your Al Quran that you have never committed and intended to commit act of adultery in your life ?
report abuse
disagree 7
agree 50
...
written by Jana, October 26, 2008 13:22:50
Come next GE, we will show him the exit door. He can then float a Malaysian Mujahiddin faction
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 14
...
written by gorshan, October 26, 2008 13:28:58
written by chipon, October 26, 2008 12:42:47

BTW, it's true that Malaysia is a Host Country. We hosted the Indians and Chinese and later granted citizenship to all. It's a fact. Go study how chinese and indians end up in this country.

We support all races to live and work in this country. But, again, Malaysia IS a HOST COUNTRY.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


BTW, it's true that Malaysia is a Host Country. We,the orang asli hosted the Malays,Indians and Chinese and later granted citizenship to all. It's a fact. Go study how malay,chinese and indians end up in this country.

We support all races to live and work in this country. But, again, Malaysia IS a HOST COUNTRY. heh heh heh smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/angry.gif
report abuse
disagree 5
agree 73
...
written by Vivarium, October 26, 2008 13:31:32
Chipon, Malaysia is a host country, and the host is orang asli, Jakun and Sakai. Melayu was never the host. You grand/granny could have come from Burma, Philippine, Indonesia or even China.
Parameswara brought Islam to the Malay Sultanate in 1919, and was never the original religion of the host. The host allowed Islam to take root in this country until this day. Are you not grateful to the orang asli, Jakun and Sakai ?
report abuse
disagree 4
agree 67
...
written by Alice, October 26, 2008 13:39:30
IT'S A DELIGHT TO SEE SOMETHING FROM RPK. TAKE CARE AND GOD BE WITH YOU.

Zulkifli Nordin said he does not care about other people’s opinion. He is not a true Muslim and he is certainly not a true leader. He should redeem himself by resigning

ZUL hmm how to help you ah?? You are totally lost!!! I still feel sorry for you.You dah sesatlah zul!!
report abuse
disagree 4
agree 15
...
written by cheekhiaw, October 26, 2008 14:01:52
The soil on mother Earth had been host for all sorts of life forms for billions of years. That is not the issue.

The issue is with parasites claiming to be hosts with special rights...

xxx
report abuse
disagree 4
agree 32
...
written by malsia1206, October 26, 2008 14:08:32
Zulkifli Nordin, the voice is out, loud and clear. Have you got the balls to resign your seat and let the constituents decide whom you should represent first - your religion or the voters? Remember you were voted to be the MP only because you never declare your priority the last time before the election. Put your mouth where your words are.
report abuse
disagree 4
agree 13
...
written by Dongra Dude, October 26, 2008 14:12:49
The ******* Zul is like a cancer in PKR. DSAI by still keeping him as PKR member and MP representing PR, you are going to be sorry and loose the majority support. You also forget about forming the next Government. Make a stand on this creep or your going loose the support of the Majority Non Muslims.
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 12
...
written by ROBERTNGTG, October 26, 2008 14:28:49
Zulkifli Nordin said he does not care about other people’s opinion. He is not a true Muslim and he is certainly not a true leader

RPK, NICE TO READ THIS BUT, PLS DO SAY A WORD OR TWO ABOUT YR CONDITION
FOR OUR EASE OF MIND. SAVE YR AMMO TIL YOU ARE RELEASED.
report abuse
disagree 4
agree 9
...
written by Jit Dharma, October 26, 2008 14:50:06
Seems to me that Bro.Zul speaks out from a space of fear located in his heart.
His big fear is that without him to speak out( more like shout) about Islam,
people, especially non-muslims will become arrogant and try to ask questions
about things that, he thinks, don't have anything to do with them.Unfortunately this includes issues where Islam DOES impact the lives of non-muslims.Perhaps his biggest fear is that, given a choice, many Malays might choose to leave
their faith.
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 19
...
written by Eskay Lim, October 26, 2008 15:05:40
Dear Vivarium,
I think you messed up your history lessons in saying that Parameswara brought Islam to the Malay Sultanate in 1919.

Historical facts say Parameswara, who was a Hindu prince and his band of followers fled from Palembang, which was part of the Srivijayan empire and arrived at Melacca in 1403. He easily set himself as the ruler of Melacca.
It was later that he was converted into Islam by the Arab traders and took the Muslim name of Megat Iskandar Shah and started the Malacca Sultanate.
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 25
...
written by ez24get, October 26, 2008 16:15:44
Islam is under attack from all sides - left, right, top, down, inside, out, front and back by whom? Who is attacking Islam? Was it attacking of Islam or discussing things which related to Islam? Why is Zulkifli so paranoid about imaginary foes attacking Islam. The same can also be said of Toyo, spreading lies about a good natured woman politician attacking Islam. Or are these people merely opportunists who exploits religion to the hilt for their own political expediency?

It is the very behaviour of Muslims like Zulkifli which turns people away from Islam. It is the like of his character which insults Islam. When Islam has followers like Zulkifli, it is no wonder Islam is seen as a violent, intolerant and insecure religion. He is an ardent follower of Malaysia Today and he should emulate Raja Petra or Tok Guru who are true followers of Islam.

Muslims should not blame others for misunderstanding Islam; blame your fellow-Muslims in the like of Zulkiflis. And there are many of them in UMNO, who, in the name of Islam, will not hesitate to commit corruption, adultery and other sins but does not bat an eyelid in extolling how holy and virtuous they are in defending their religion. Islam doesn't allow discrimination of people based on race, cast, creed and skin colour nor does it allow hypocrisy and intolerance of other people’s religion!

This man is delusional and should be sent for mental health assessment for he seems to be suffering from psychotic disorders believing he is the only true believer and protector of Islam and there are no other religions besides Islam in Malaysia. Looks like he is a prime candidate to be enlisted for suicide bombing in Afghanistan!

He truly thinks that God elected him into parliament and therefore he is only looking after the interest of God and not after the interest of all rakyat comprising of malays, chinese, indians and other races who gave their votes to him in the last election. If he only want to look after the interest of God (which God doesn't need him to look after His interest), he should not become a Member of Parliament; he should become an Imam or Mufti.

He is more of a liability than an asset to Pakatan Rakyat. PR should just let him go to join UMNO. In addition to good riddance, at least that will expose the hypocrisy of UMNO who welcomes him with open arms. It will also expose his own hypocrisy of protecting God under a most corrupt party that you will ever find that is an exact opposite of Islam! Let him be soiled with all the sinners in UMNO! He will feel more at home in UMNO!
report abuse
disagree 4
agree 55
...
written by Limang, October 26, 2008 16:25:26
Nice to hear from Pete again. Am presently surprised and delighted, but sad he is still incarcerated.

With regard to Islam being a just religion, sorry for being a sceptic, can anyone explain why:

1. Man can have 4 wives and woman cannot have 4 husbands?
2. One Muslim male witness is equivalent to 2 Muslim females?
3. Slavery is allowed in Islam?
4. Muslim man can beat women to discipline them, but women cannot when the men is indisciplined?
5. Non-Muslims are infidels even if they believe in God, and must be killed if they don't sumbit to Islamic rule, and even if they do, they are declared as dhimmis?
6. Women are considered as "a hurt and a pollution" during their courses though it is not their fault as Allah creates them that way, and then condemn them in the Quran?
7. A evil Muslim can be better than a righteous non-Muslim as stated by verses such as "A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman. . ."(Surah 2 - Al Baqarah, verse 221)?
8. The Quran says "Let there be no compulsion in religion" and yet a non-Muslim must convert in order to marry a Muslim in the same book?
9. such discriminatory verses such as "Let not the believers take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers..." as if the best and most righteous of unbelievers are still not good and nothing compared to the most evil and worst of Muslims (and there are many of them in UMNO like Shit Botak)?

I can go on and on but the above is sufficient.

Again the actions of its believers speak of the values of a religion. In this case, look at the discriminating policies of our government. It claims to be based on Islamic principles of justice and fairness. They why is it so unfair and unjust to non-Muslims, catering only to ONE RACE, at the expense and hurt of others and the moment the suppressed non-Muslims voice their grievances, THEY ARE IMMEDIATELY BRANDED AS ANTI-ISLAM OR INSULTING ISLAM, when all they cry for is just for a little fairness and justice due to them?

If Islam promotes justice, should ordinary Muslims who see injustice and discrimination in the country against non-Muslims be the first to oppose such practices and demand fairness for their fellow humans and citizens? Why is NEP that prejudices and discriminates against anyone not Muslims be allowed to exist for so long and worse, seen as a just policy?

Then when bigots like Zul and Ahmad rant against other races and religions, why are they not put under ISA when individuals like Teresa, who did nothing wrong and was slandered, was put under ISA? Explain the double standard - one for Muslim bigots and one for peace-loving and fair-minded non-Muslims?
Sorry, for being a sceptic and find it impossible to accept Islam as a fair and just religion.
report abuse
disagree 7
agree 78
...
written by cubi76, October 26, 2008 17:05:51
Just wonder why all troubles today are in Muslim majority countries or Islam related, when everyone else pursuing love and peace.

Malay in Malaysia hosting non-Malay? Would there even be a nation called Malaysia in the first place without all so-called 'pendatang'? Melayu memang mudah lupa and lupa jasa... pity.

report abuse
disagree 3
agree 32
...
written by Malaysiaputra, October 26, 2008 17:13:56
Zulkifli Nordin wants the world and especially all Malaysian Muslims to know that hie is more Muslim than others lah! As if Allah needed this puny man to defend him.
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 17
...
written by MSIABOLEH, October 26, 2008 19:08:54
So Chipon what is your point about the hosting country you keep on stressing? You only want to be proud of yourself and make youself feel good by twisting history to your advantage. There would not even be a Tanah Melayu if not for the Chinese. The Siamese would have conquered the whole peninsula with their advance armies. If not for the Indian who brought their modern civilisation the Malay culture would be very bland. The language, custom and architecture are greatly influeced by the Indian. So chipon what if my ancestors has been pendatang? My grandfather has fought the Communist even when you were not born. Yeah you are the orang laut/selat, so what?
report abuse
disagree 4
agree 34
...
written by cubi76, October 26, 2008 19:51:04
Dear Chipon,
Clearly you do not have the idea of Malaysia as a nation, as most of Umno members do.

Firstly, Malaysia is made up of Peninsular Sabah Sarawak (of course Singapore as well at the time of independence)

Secondly, when Malaysia achieved independence, I wouldnt say Malays as an overwhelming majority in this country. Bumi at the time was about 55%, out of which I am not sure how many of them were Malays. 44% of them were non-Bumis. So basically Malaysia, at the time of independence, was already a multicultural place.

And this further extended to the time of old Melaka Dynasty when it was a big melting pot of people coming from all parts of the world, hence you have Portugese settlement, Siamese, Baba Nyonyah, etc.

The Malay as percentage of population in this country only increased dramatically in recent times, especially during TDM times through Project IC and huge influx of migrants from Indonesia.

Anyhow, I dont see a point arguing Malaysia as a hosting country, who's hosting who. It will never end.

Open up your mind and adapt yourself into the globalisation, if you still want to see Malaysia as a nation to progress.

Look forward, not live in the past. Be wise.
report abuse
disagree 4
agree 39
...
written by justme bc, October 26, 2008 19:58:25
Dear Pete, great to hear from you again, you will continue to have our support. long live RPK! We are looking forward to your release soon, this is god's willing.

This idiot Zul is a disgrace not only to PKR but to all the Muslim community. A big disgrace to Islam, sending the wrong message about the religion to the whole world. This just showed that he has very shallow knowledge on the religion.

Hidup bangsa Malaysia!!!!!!!!!!
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 15
...
written by cheekhiaw, October 26, 2008 20:19:25
chipon,

why don't you go squat at the holding place your Allah had allocated for you. I can tell you it is a whole lot better place than wherever you came from you wouldn't want to come back here.

As to here in Malaysia, which host are you parasiting off?

xxx
report abuse
disagree 6
agree 19
...
written by sambal muncha, October 26, 2008 20:19:36
ALI CORDOBA & CO:

WHAT DO YOU CALL PAKISTANIS KILLING 3 MILLION BANGLADESHIS? MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD?
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 24
...
written by born2reign, October 26, 2008 22:53:10
Some of you Muslims just don't get it. To defend Islam go after those who blatantly abuse Allah, like those UMNOshiteras. Are they above Allah? You Muslims certainly treat them that way, your Muslim brothers who kill, rape and oppress. Not a whimper at the UMNOshiteras who abuse their power, but the victims of Islam even squeek, you say you are defending Islam by silencing the victims, not to provide solution and mercy. Hypocrites!!

Go fix this one first: 85% of illegitimate births in KL GH is Malay aka Muslims. Why? And please don't tell me that Islam will stone to death the mother and let the father go off scott-free.

If you can't stone your own Muslim devils, please don't get on your high horse, and insult the non-Muslims who takes care of our families pretty well, without any help from the "just and fair" self-declared Muslim govt.
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 24
...
written by pelukis, October 26, 2008 22:54:03
This guy is rubbish...ask Anwar Salih, "we know what you did in Munich, Germany"
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 10
...
written by temenggong, October 26, 2008 22:54:08
Dear Pete...as a true Muslims, why don't you come forward and tell the true story of how the Crusaders skinned the young Muslims in Syria and hanged them head down to let their blood piss from their cut veins?

Why do you only see the 'dark side' of Islam? That does not make you a true Muslim...To be a true Muslim, come forward and tell these goons here how Muslims too suffered from the swords and today from the guns and bombs of the Christians and tell gorshan how the destruction of the Babri masjid has turned India into a hindu extremist territory?



True. Ali Cordoba,

First, why don't you tell the goons over 'ere about the muslim slaughter of 20 million Hindus over 400 years in India alone.

Both christianity and islam were experts at genocide and ethnic cleansing having wiped out over 300 ethnic culture groups to extinction! It carries on now in more subtle ways.

I think I know who you are and will confirm that with Chris Williams, Alan Nuttal and the webguru!
report abuse
disagree 5
agree 20
...
written by Sabahfan, October 26, 2008 23:52:34
ISLAM ISLAM ISLAM.......

AM i really fed up hearing this word from some people who claims only they are the rightful enforcer of Allah, as if they had recieved the appointment letter of Allah, though they know in their hearts that they are pretenders and HIPOCRITES.... Using the name of Allah and ISLAM to propagate their KETUANANs...


DONT THEY EVER KNOW THE MEANING OF SHAME, WHEN THE WHOLE WORLD KNOWS THEY ARE BULLSHITERS....

WHEN ARE THESE UMNOSHITPUTRAS ever realise that you cannot hide under the skirts of Malazut and Islam to cling on to power? That the people eventually will lose their tolerance knowing very well that U are quoting islam just to be CONTINUE YOUR POWER CORRUPT, MONEY CORRUPT, SEX CORRUPT ALA ALTANTUYA... ETC ETC..

GO ON, KEEP USING ISLAM BUT YOU CANNOT STOP A REVOLUTION COMING...
report abuse
disagree 4
agree 29
...
written by truthbespoken, October 27, 2008 01:03:56
Dear LILIN,

I do not doubt your good impression of MP Zulkifli through your personal acquaintance with him.

But you may not realise that you have only met a Mr Hyde. Many other Malaysians now recognise him as Mr Jackal, or visa versa.

If you are right, other Malaysians are right too. MP Zul then must be having a clear case of a split personality, a good as well as a troubled one! Is he good for the interest of the people?

If y
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 15
...
written by truthbespoken, October 27, 2008 01:12:43
sorry folks, 2nd line, it's vice versa.
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 1
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
...
written by AsamLaksa, October 27, 2008 02:45:31
To the likes of Ali Cordoba, you've got no proof one way or the other. Who killed whom more is not the point. The point is, STOP the killings now! If Islam wants to make a difference, then do it, don't waste time debating. Get Muslims all over the world to put down their arms. Violence will not bring quick peace.

Sure the Aghans are targeting the Western forces but there are Muslim collateral damage such as local support workers like translators, drivers, police officers, etc? The Muslim insurgents are not looking for peace. They want power because they are left out of the power sharing deal. The Western forces can go home and they will rise up and kill each other. Don't believe me? Well, we already have history showing us what happened after the Soviets left. If they really want the West to leave, then stop fighting. The faster peace is achieved, the more the West lose their reason to stay.

What of Palestine? They are killing each other too, Fatah vs Hamas. Same faith but can't work together for the benefit of Palestinians. Who's in charge? Guess what will happen if Palestine is given independence? These two factions will kill each other.

We have enough examples of Muslims killing Muslims. Why deny them? Acknowledge them and say NO MORE. Why harp on non-Muslims killing Muslims when there's enough Muslims killing Muslims?

Muslims are well known to talk this is bad, that is bad. Where are the Muslims who act? Where are the Muslims who risk their lives to prevent other Muslims from killing other Muslims? Where are the Muslims who dare to broker peace in Palestine, Algeria, Libya, Syria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc? Sure easier to go kill Korean Christian aid workers, eh? Easier to kill infidels than holding back the anger of your brothers and sisters, eh?

Just like Zul, talk only. Die to defend Islam. Nice. UMNO make a mockery of Islam and what have Zul done to really defend Islam? What have the likes of Ali Cordoba done to defend Islam?

When are the likes of Ali Cordoba going to stand up to fight against the Muslim oppressors before they even try to do anything against the non-Muslim oppressors??? Oh, can't see the Muslim oppressors now?
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 22
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
...
written by macanhitam, October 27, 2008 04:00:22
i for once had no problems with religion but i do have problem with people manipulating religion as tools and preaching hate onto others as if they have been decreed by god for doing so. i hope malaysia is not to emulate Iraq like this: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JtXIiiVpZI4
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 8
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
...
written by batsman, October 27, 2008 09:01:14
Dear chipon - i understand what you are trying to say, but the examples you use are rather unfortunate. US, Canada and Australia were countries where the original inhabitants were slaughtered and the land stolen from them. To this day, they are isolated in concentration camps similar to the apartheid "homelands". At the same time, negros (in US) and criminals convicts (in Australia) were imported as slaves and cheap labour. These were later freed after immense struggle and suffering by all races. Today racism continues, but they are smart enough their public relations to allow a negro to campaign for President of the US and to allow sons of criminals to become PMs in Australia.

In Malaysia, unfortunately, the immigrant races are still young and have not taken off their chauvinistic dress yet. As such they show no respect for anybody - not even themselves nor RPK.

RPK argues with reason and intelligence. Unfortunately the commentators here only show rank chauvinism and anti-Islamic motives. If this is the case, I think UMNO will rule for another 50 years. The commentators here cut their noses to slight their faces.
report abuse
disagree 9
agree 11
...
written by batsman, October 27, 2008 09:12:34
To give respect to RPK and assume that he has not started a website that is filled with racist and chauvinistic commentators, let me just say that I think some commentators here are UMNO/MCA/MIC members. They play a very smart game - just as Najib's manifesto, these dirty commmentators are now sabotaging RPK's website with racist and anti-Islamic comments. If the rest do not wake up and fight for TRUE justice, I am afraid UMNO will win - purely because they are smarter than you dumb asses are.
report abuse
disagree 6
agree 8
...
written by truthbespoken, October 27, 2008 09:24:22
Ali Cordoba, Dragonheart and Chipon,

There is just no need to defend Islam or your fellow Muslims the way you are always doing it. Otherwise, your views can also become the other side of lopsidedness.

Remember, God is the Greatest! We don't have to fight for or about God really! PEACE for all Malaysians, bro!
report abuse
disagree 5
agree 15
...
written by Taikohtai, October 27, 2008 10:04:47
Gods do not kill people but people who believe in GOD do.
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 8
...
written by ASK4u, October 27, 2008 10:20:20
What is the issue here? Whatever Nordin claims is not true. He is just being paranoid. Nobody is attacking Islam. Please name one incident, will anyone? The Azan issue has been found to be untrue and the Bar Council was just trying to work out a solution for the family, whose husband/wife/son etc had converted to Islam. How this can translate to "Islam" bashing, I don't understand? Islam has survived more than a millennium. It had withstand harsher weather and assaults. It is a joke to imagine that any one single individual is needed to defend it. People must have faith in the almighty GOD. If he so chooses, an asteroid may hit the earth and we will all be back to the Dinosaur's age. There won't be any religion left for us to fight and defend anymore. Try to be human first. Give up all this vain arguments and learn to respect and love each other first as human beings.
report abuse
disagree 4
agree 20
...
written by gorshan, October 27, 2008 10:20:57
RPK provided you guys this forum so that you can voice out your grievances and frustration with the main motive that at the end of the day learn to see the difference between your religions and comes to an common understanding of each others culture,race and beliefs and learns to get along. but what so some of you guys do? you have daggers drawn at each others throat.

don't you guys know its going to pain his bleeding heart to know that his intentions and subsequent detention has been in vain?

shame on you guys. smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/angry.gif
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 9
...
written by sydput, October 27, 2008 10:59:18
don't waste time having discussion with people of any religion. Time will come when God will deal with them with firmness an justice.
PKR should just sack the MP from Kulim a he is definitely in the wrong party. You must make a clear stand on this issue so that in future, those with fanatical leanings will never join PKR.
Badawi did not make a c;ear stand aftr hishamuddin's kris episode and many voters deserted him.
DSAI is making similar mistake.
report abuse
disagree 4
agree 6
...
written by 2edgedsword, October 27, 2008 11:20:14
Zul made a fool of himself at the Bar council. This, he surely knows, but will not admit because he is ashamed to do it. So, he plays along with kampung politics to justify his actions. This manisfestation of pride is man's worst enemy, and will eventually lead to his downfall. Note that even the Bali bombers refuse to repent. Under-achievers tend to hide behind popular causes, and religion is the easiest and most convenient. Zul should realise that one of the keys to greatness is humility. This he is lacking. He should take this opportunity to come clean and admit his mistakes, and the public will acknowledge this as an act of greatness.

I am appalled what people will do to compensate for ego deficiencies. Playing with relgion will only do this - misrepresenting the truth and the true character of God. Clearly we should not critise another's religion, but we certainly should criisize believers' skewed interpretation of it to satisfy one's own self-interests. In Zul's case, it's clearly to satisfy his pride of life, which is antithesis to any good religion.
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 13
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
...
written by temenggong, October 27, 2008 12:06:08
Folks, Ali Cordoba is a blimey Brit who got entangled with a local (malay) women here and takes up non existent causes to kill time between meals and on weekends. smilies/cool.gif

Ali Cordoba,

Atrocities happened in the past. But today where is the persecution against muslims? Whether in Darfur, Iraq, Pakistan, Kashmir or elsewhere, day in day out we read of muslims killing muslims. You are feigning persecution when there is none.

The coalition forces in Afghanistan and Iraq are there to prevent shias from killing sunnis, and from sunnis killing kurds. Even in India its the muslims killing the muslims. Nobody reads the fine prints but see the bomb casualties and know that half the victims are muslims. Those dumb jerks detonate bombs, not in Hindu areas but in muslims neighbourhoods!! Can you beat that! This buffoonery is perplexing the Indian police so much that they end up arresting some innocent Hindus!! smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif
report abuse
disagree 4
agree 18
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
...
written by kawaafi, October 27, 2008 14:10:33
Temmengong,
you conveniently miss Israel. and some reports when US rockets bomb many civilians homes in Pakistan...
recent history also shows the serbs and croats killed many many muslims as well.
report abuse
disagree 6
agree 7
...
written by macanhitam, October 27, 2008 14:18:46
zul is an inferior person. much to my disgust, he is fearing his own shadows more than he fear god. when he stated that islam must be defended at all cost, it makes it sounds as if there were imminent threat on islam. from what i perceive, the threat is nothing but a false manifestation of his own infatuated worries. No one was throwing a plonk against islam in malaysia but UMNO and BN themselves. the azan, jawi, pig farming issues are all fabricated with mala fidal intent to assassinate and discredit people and groups like YB Teresa, HINDRAF, RPK and DAP. To my surprise, his statement are just biased and lopsided making him sounded more like a typical UMNO deuche bag to me. Why standing in the platform of PR who upholds justice and righteousness when he for one cannot even lead and show a good example of a tolerant, and mature islamic leader. he had forgotten that Makkal Sakthi elements are at play during the GE that became the catalyst of his win. How dare he claimed that HINDRAF gate-crashed Bodohwi's Raya party when the party itself was actually an 'open house' party. Does that mean open is only to deuche bags like zul and unopen to groups like HINDRAF & RPK supporters? How funny.

regarding the Bar Council forum, many commentaries above claimed that “To you unto you, to me unto mine” which i very much agree. But in making such claims they have forgotten the fact that the forum participants are also attended by Muslims. So, why being biased by throwing the blame just because Amiga is a non-muslim? Lateefa Koya was there too. Is that for the sake of self-gratifying so excuses can be made to attack the so-called threatening 'elements'??

As for Lina Joy, she had made her own choices and no one else but god can judge her. So why are we playing God when we are nothing close to that superiority? Why worry about one 'low quality' muslim when there were millions of more 'alim' muslims out there who are rigorously practising islam and will fight for islam if there was REAL imminent threat. Let her be. “To you unto you, to me unto mine” doesnt apply to her anymore as she is now embracing other religion.

heat your own nerves when you need to, not heating them for the sake of self-gratification and hate.
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 14
...
written by alarcarte, October 27, 2008 14:22:54
How come such a person with PIG’S brain made it to PKR? This so called defender of ISLAM should just shut up! The more he utters anything like defending Islam made him look more stupid!

ISLAM is a great religion and do not need such people to defend, the way to defend Islam is to preach peace and tolerant to all non believers and not “TALK KOCK!”

He has actually insulted ISLAM by saying ISLAM is a weak a religion and need defending!
report abuse
disagree 6
agree 13
...
written by Saint, October 27, 2008 14:36:51
Dear Ali Cordoba,
It is very regretful that it is people like you (not as a Muslim but as an individual)that prevents to "see beyond your self consciousness"; and is creating more problems for the peaceful and "preventing others" form seeing the truth.

Do you really know what is the true meaning of the word "Allah". Are you trying to tell that the Malay word "Tuhan" means something else then Allah. Does it mean that the English word "God" does not mean Allah or the word "Siva" does not mean Allah.

People like you have "mentally idolized" the word Allah to such an extent that many Muslims think that "Allah" is something like a "specific noun" and all other God fearing man are praying to a different "Allah".

Are you trying to educate the human generation that "your own idolized version of Allah" is so stupid that there is not a single Muslim civilization which is 5,000 years old. Are you telling all the generation after Noah and Abraham; forget about "Allah" and did not leave a civilization and only of that of the Egyptians, Indians and Chinese (all infidels) survived.

When are you going to "see" that every faith has the same Allah or Tuhan or God or Siva. This Allah is "Eternal, Omnipresent and Infinite". What you are trying to "preach" is that Buddha was created by the Devil and your "form of Allah" had no power over it. You are undermining the very religion of Islam by interpreting it this way.

Until individuals like you truely believe "that there is only one God and He is the All knowing and NEVER makes mistakes", nothing is going to change and you will be "forcing" people to fight on the name of "your version of the idolized Allah".

Please come to terms with your self and with all religions of that ONE GOD. HE KNOWS ALL. Just have trust in GOD and leave all punishment into HIM ALONE.
report abuse
disagree 7
agree 12
...
written by hellosunshine, October 27, 2008 14:58:15
My dear Muslim brothers and sisters, the forum at the Bar Council was trying to address the hardships that the non-Muslim parties were facing after their spouse had converted to Islam. Zulikifli Nordin Top gate crashed the forum with a bunch of fanatics to stop the forum from proceeding claiming they were defending Islam. Why can't they defend Islam in a civilized manner by participating in the forum like other Muslims that were present? Why the barbaric behaviour? Are they afraid they will lose the debate?
report abuse
disagree 4
agree 17
...
written by temenggong, October 27, 2008 15:08:55
I know of no instance when rpk insulted islam or any religion. I know of many instances when rpk condemned muslims who do not follow the deen, amal makruf, nahi mungkar - uphold truth and your obligations, resist injustices with all your might!

Leave the Israelis alone and they will leave you alone. Remember, they follow the old principle of an eye for an eye!
report abuse
disagree 4
agree 13
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
...
written by ASK4u, October 27, 2008 17:37:52
written by shamsul siahaan, October 27, 2008 11:20:56
What has Zulkifli said that made a lot of people get offended? Should people get offended when he said the non-Muslims should just stay off from the affairs of Islam and Muslims (like the case of the Bar Council)? What he is saying is the truth. The Qur’an has clearly said it, “To you unto you, to me unto mine”. Just as the non-Muslims should steer clear of the affairs of the Muslims, the Muslims too must do likewise


Dear Shamsul,
I stand to be corrected, but I think it is the contrary. By amending the constitution to favour converts, our gomen made a blunder of not addressing the plights of the converts non-muslim family members. This issue has been left dangling far too long. I'll quote one among several examples here: If the convert had made a nomination in his Insurance policy prior to conversion and passes away, the proceeds will not go to his nominees as stated in the policy but will follow the distribution according to the Syariah Law. The same goes to his WILL and EPF savings. Now, here is the problem! how are you going to distribute the deceased wealth to a non-muslim family member according to Syariah Law. This are the type of problems that the Bar Council was trying to address and come up with an amicable solution. By failing to address this issue, our gomen is being irresponsible to the sensitivity and plights of non-muslim when a bread winner passes away plus the financial difficulty they go through in addition to the trauma of not being able to perform the last rights according to their customs and religious believe especially so when the family members are not informed about the conversion. The Bar council was actually trying to help our Gomen to overcome this problem and it was intimidated and criticized for that. Now, whose mistake is this? The convert? The Gomen? or the non-muslim family members? Has the non-muslim family members interfered in the affairs of Islam and Muslims? Tell me Shamsul? I think it is the other way round! Where is the maxim: “To you unto you, to me unto mine”. If you're a true Muslim, touch your heart (with ALLAH as witness) and answer my question above honestly..."amal maarof nahi mungkar!". By writing this piece, I think people with the logic and understanding of a Nordin Zul will shout "left-right-centre" that I have attacked Islam and Muslim? What's your take on this, bro?
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 4
...
written by kawaafi, October 27, 2008 17:47:59
Here we go again.. we are participating in this very forum where the talk about freedom of speech and rights will happen at will..
but when it comes to Muslims who suffers like in israel case. the general notion is we are suppose to close not only one eye but both eyes.
Muslims just deserve it..
hmm... so much about freedom of speech and human right ya..

but do not loose hope pete. at least now we know we are far apart than closer than what we might want to be.. we just have to start some place and sincerely express our thought and principle we stand for. Hopefully we can come to some form of concensus if not now, much later..smilies/smiley.gif
report abuse
disagree 5
agree 6
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
...
written by BAHAZIN, October 27, 2008 18:15:50
To chipon,
I'm a muslim too but the way you've said it, as if Allah is incapable of defending His religion. Only people like you, " self appointed God's representative " rise up to the occasion to defend Islam and sanitized others who held different views. Haven't you heard sidiq, amanah, tabliq and the last important part, fatanah ( wisdom ). I don't think that last part is use in the case of Zul Nordin.
report abuse
disagree 5
agree 11
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
...
written by jrd, October 27, 2008 22:47:44
These figures are a rough estimate of the death of non-Muslims by the political act of jihad.

Africa
Thomas Sowell [Thomas Sowell, Race and Culture, BasicBooks, 1994, p. 188] estimates that 11 million slaves were shipped across the Atlantic and 14 million were sent to the Islamic nations of North Africa and the Middle East. For every slave captured many others died. Estimates of this collateral damage vary. The renowned missionary David Livingstone estimated that for every slave who reached a plantation, five others were killed in the initial raid or died of illness and privation on the forced march.[Woman’s Presbyterian Board of Missions, David Livingstone, p. 62, 1888] Those who were left behind were the very young, the weak, the sick and the old. These soon died since the main providers had been killed or enslaved. So, for 25 million slaves delivered to the market, we have an estimated death of about 120 million people. Islam ran the wholesale slave trade in Africa.
120 million Africans

Christians
The number of Christians martyred by Islam is 9 million [David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson, World Christian Trends AD 30-AD 2200, William Carey Library, 2001, p. 230, table 4-10] . A rough estimate by Raphael Moore in History of Asia Minor is that another 50 million died in wars by jihad. So counting the million African Christians killed in the 20th century we have:
60 million Christians

Hindus
Koenard Elst in Negationism in India gives an estimate of 80 million Hindus killed in the total jihad against India. [Koenard Elst, Negationism in India, Voice of India, New Delhi, 2002, pg. 34.] The country of India today is only half the size of ancient India, due to jihad. The mountains near India are called the Hindu Kush, meaning the “funeral pyre of the Hindus.”
80 million Hindus

Buddhists
Buddhists do not keep up with the history of war. Keep in mind that in jihad only Christians and Jews were allowed to survive as dhimmis (servants to Islam); everyone else had to convert or die. Jihad killed the Buddhists in Turkey, Afghanistan, along the Silk Route, and in India. The total is roughly 10 million. [David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson, World Christian Trends AD 30-AD 2200, William Carey Library, 2001, p. 230, table 4-1.]
10 million Buddhists

Jews
Oddly enough there were not enough Jews killed in jihad to significantly affect the totals of the Great Annihilation. The jihad in Arabia was 100 percent effective, but the numbers were in the thousands, not millions. After that, the Jews submitted and became the dhimmis (servants and second class citizens) of Islam and did not have geographic political power.

This gives a rough estimate of 270 million killed by jihad.

http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/tears-of-jihad/
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 6
...
written by jrd, October 27, 2008 22:49:49
What Really Happened in Israel.

http://www.terrorismawareness.org/what-really-happened/
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 2
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
...
written by hellosunshine, October 28, 2008 00:02:37
Comments from this Lilin chap really shows his IQ level. Nuff said! smilies/grin.gif
report abuse
disagree 6
agree 9
...
written by jrd, October 28, 2008 00:07:17
Today, many followers of Islam such as Saddam Hussein, Idi Amin, Momar Gaddafi, Yasser Arafat, Dawood Ibrahim, Abu Nidal, etc. are famed for the brutality of their crimes and terrorism. The entire world is marred by violence and murder, wherever Muslims reside. The entire world is suffering due to the barbaric activities of Islamic terrorists. Pick up a newspaper today and you will note that 98% of terrorist activities that occur involve Muslims. I have named a few of the countries below as examples:

(1) India - Muslims have been terrorizing this country since the 7th century AD. Muslim regimes throughout India have a record of unparalleled terror and torture described in gory detail by contemporary Muslim chronicles themselves. Subjecting all non-Muslims to abject atrocities, plundering their wealth, abducting their women and usurping their houses of worship to be used as mosques and tombs, has been considered sacred duty of every Muslim. Such acts earned for the tormentors the coveted title of Ghazi, to be paraded as a citation of great Islamic glory and greatness. Aurangzeb, one of the last Muslim emperors had 10,000 Hindus massacred everyday for an entire year. He alone was responsible for the massacre of at least 3,650,000 Hindus and destruction of more than 11,000 Hindu temples. William Durant, author of the voluminous "Story of Civilization" has described the Muslim conquests in India as constituting the saddest and goriest chapter in human history. Muslims have destroyed and looted the whole country and have killed countless innocent Hindus in the process.

The Muslims forced the violent partition of India into three parts in 1947 (India, West Pakistan and East Pakistan). Even today, they terrorize the innocent people of India by causing bomb blasts and killing innocent individuals. Currently, the followers of Islam are concentrating their efforts in Kashmir, a northern state in India. Kashmir has been the land of the Hindus since ancient times. The word Kashmir itself is derived from Rishi Kashyap�a great spiritual leader of Hinduism. The Muslims have destroyed this beautiful land completely. Today the Pakistan-sponsored Muslim terrorists continue to kill, torture and rape the innocent Hindus of Kashmir. To cite the most recent incidents: In a cold-blooded massacre on the night of January 25th 1998, 23 Kashmiri Hindus, including 10 women and four children, were gunned down by a group of Islamic terrorists from Pakistan in Wandhama, 27 km from Srinagar. On April 19th Islamic terrorists belonging to the Pakistani Lashkar-e-Tobia terrorist organization claimed responsibility for gunning down at least 13 Kashmiri Hindus in Prankot village near Mahore in Udhampur district. The victims included four women and two children. Pakistan's aim is to separate Kashmir from India and declare it as an Islamic state. I will provide you with more information on Islamic terrorism in India and Kashmir in a separate article.

More to come
report abuse
disagree 7
agree 8
...
written by Sabahfan, October 28, 2008 00:08:12
The more i read all the comments here on religion, the more the religious leaders and their followers defend their doctrines, policies..etc..
'
the more I AM CONVINCED.... RELIGION IS MORE THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL...

the only proverb that has proven over centuries is....

WE HAVE ENOUGH RELIGION IN THE WORLD TO DIVIDE THE HUMANS... AND MORE THAN ENOUGH POLITICIANS TO INSPIRE THEM TO GO AT EACH OTHER'S THROATS...!!!

QED...
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 9
...
written by jrd, October 28, 2008 00:13:16
(2) The Assyrian Nation - The horrible crimes committed by Islamic terrorists against the Assyrian nation is a well documented fact. Between 1980 and 1988 the Iraqi regime exiled thousands of Iraqi citizens to Iran on the charges that they were of Persian ancestry. Many Assyrians were targeted in this illegal and barbarous act. During this bloody war, it is estimated that up to 10,000 Assyrian men from Iraq were killed. The most disturbing aspect of this tragedy is that many of these Assyrians were killed in cold blood by their own Arab countrymen, just for being Assyrians. On December 13th 1997, a group of militants belonging to the Kurdish Labour Party (PKK), treacherously attacked six Assyrians through an ambush laid for them in the district of Mangeesh-Duhok, Northern Iraq. Two of them were killed immediately and the others were wounded, then the armed group charged over them and cold-bloodedly killed the wounded.

Ever since the invasion of their homelands by barbaric Muslims, the Assyrians have been fighting for their rights. The persecution of Assyrian Christians by the Islamic terrorists has brought them to the brink of extinction!

(3) Bangladesh - Bangladesh was a part of India before the Muslim terrorists led by Mohammed Ali Jinnah separated it from India in 1947. It was then called East Pakistan. Jinnah lied to the thirteen million Hindus, Buddhists and Christians in East Pakistan and told them that they would not be persecuted against. He promised that they would be given full freedom under the Islamic rule. However, these religious minorities, especially the Hindus and the Buddhists have been tortured, raped and murdered by the pious Muslims ever since 1947. Over 2.5 million Hindus alone were slaughtered during the Pakistan-Bangladesh war in 1971. The types of crimes committed were perfectly in accordance with the Koran. Robert E. Burns, the author of Wrath of Allah states, "The mutilation was disgusting:eyes gouged out, pregnant women disemboweled, male genitals cut off, women's breasts cut off.."

The persecution of "unbelievers" in the name of Allah , continues even today in Bangladesh under the Islamic rule. For example, Taslima Nasreen, the author of Lajja was given a death sentence for just stating the facts and speaking against the inhumane, cruel and barbaric nature of Islam.
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 11
...
written by truthbespoken, October 28, 2008 00:14:02
Dear LILIN,

Your remarks on jrd was not a smart thing to say to a fellow Malaysian. You should reserve it for politicians! It is said with some bad breath spiced with disjointed references on the subject being discussed. In Malaysia, every citizen should be Malaysian first whether they are muslims or non-muslims.

Anyway, I think the discourse here on religion has degenerated into something fit for the market place! It is totally unproductive, turning antagonistic amongst fellow MT contributors and it's against the grain and original shared mission of creating a better overall Malaysia for all through pursuing positive thoughts and changes.
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 6
...
written by slimbrowser, October 28, 2008 00:38:23
So, killing the innocent and blowing people up is fine so long as they do it in the name of defending the weak islam and its god. I understand now. By doing so he is given the highest merit and assured of a place in heaven with 70 virgins.

Nice.
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 6
...
written by AsamLaksa, October 28, 2008 00:44:07
Ali Cordoba,

Islam does not need defending or defences. Islam needs Muslims to wake up, stop squabbling and make the world a better place using Islamic principles as their guide.

By the way, why should you care how I have defended Islam when you say Islam doesn't need defending? Make up your mind, will you? We have one thing in common in that you are also not making Islam sound any better.

I do not particularly care how many Muslims or non-Muslims have been killed. Just stop making more victims.

You accuse me of confusing politics and religion. Well, I am not the one shouting 'Allah is great' while killing others to further their political gains. It is the reality of Muslims taking Islam as the whole of their lives which will always result in their faith indistinguishable from their politics. To politically address Muslims is to address Islam. There is no separation. To Muslims, Islam is all encompassing.

Change your focus. It's not defending or defences that you should worry about, it's about promoting Islam, the religion of peace. As long as there are plenty of small minded Muslims like you who care so much about who killed who more, or who do worse wrong to whom, you will always end up backtracking, making excuses and won't get anywhere fast.

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the West. Now it is slowing down mainly due to curbs on immigration. However there are large numbers of Westerners who have converted to Islam but with the events since 9/11 this has slowed down. In fact Catholicism which was in decline is gaining in popularity. What brought this change?

It doesn't matter where the fault lies now. It's about what are you going to do to make things better, not just for you, your family, friends, but also for the global society. How long do you wish to see the conflict in the Middle-east, Africa and South Asia last for? Haven't seen enough Muslim and non-Muslim lives wasted?

Peace if achievable. It's not easy but all parties involved need to accept the realities that they have all done wrong and no one is cleaner than the other. Please take a look at the Northern Ireland peace process. It is possible to bridge the politics, faith and history. It begins with big minded people with equally big heart overcoming the small minded and small hearted.
report abuse
disagree 4
agree 9
...
written by AsamLaksa, October 28, 2008 02:09:19
Ali Cordoba, the Dragonheart's advice does not apply to me. I do not hate Islam or Muslims. I want Islam and Muslims to rise up because I know the teachings are sound. However it's no use to deny or downplay the wrongs of Muslims and what they have done in the name of Islam.

I want Muslims who are confident and can deal with challenges in a mature manner. I do not want hooligans. Zul may disagree with the Bar Council forum but that does not give anyone the right to force them to abandon the forum. I do not want murderers. Many Afghan Muslims are not happy about alleged proselyting attempts by foreign aid workers in Afghanistan but that does not give anyone the right to murder them.

Call me yellow minded, blue minded, black minded... so what? How does that profit you or your faith?



Shamsul Siahaan, “To you unto you, to me unto mine”, nice. Thus leave the Bar Council forum alone. Why interfere? Do you or Zul own everything concerning Islam? Is this just your selective application of maxims? What do you call this? Hypocrite? Munafik?



Chipon, you talk of freedom of speech. Nice. Zul can say whatever he likes, that is freedom of speech. But Zul invading the forum and impliedly threatened violence to force the forum to end, that is not freedom of speech. That is hooliganism.

You are very confused with freedom of speech. Freedom of speech just means free to speak you opinions. It does not mean free to act however you want.

On one hand, I applaud PAS Youth which has so far shown that they have a better understanding of freedom of speech than you. No matter how unpopular their opinions were, they do not resort to violence. They protested but they have not obstructed. That is freedom of speech.



LILIN: Let all the men in MT marry your wife too...so they can line up and **** her all day round, 24/7...and now u know why women cannot marry 4 men at a time? Stupid donkey!

Enough of your narrow view and pointless chauvinistic rant! Women have a right to say no to sex. Sex without consent is rape. A marriage is not all about sex. It's about understanding. If any partner is not in the mood, they can turn the other down. I hope your argument does not truly reflect on any shallowness on your part. Buat malu sendiri.
report abuse
disagree 2
agree 16
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
...
written by batsman, October 28, 2008 10:10:00
Some dumb asses here keep confusing Muslims with Islam. RPK never makes this mistake. There are nearly a billion Muslims in this world - not all of them are smart nor good. Similarly there are over a billion non-Muslims in this world - not all of them smart nor good. Arguing over the "bad" actions of Muslims or non-Muslims makes little sense unless you do it like RPK does - to fight for justice and right wrongs.
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 4
...
written by shepherdvoyage, October 28, 2008 10:22:35
Hi Pete
Do you know that when i kneel and pray before the Great Buddha in the morning and evening, i always pray for the early release of all the ISA detainees? We really need people like you to drive Malaysia to become a land of harmony and great prosperity. Harsh experiences make great people. There is light at the end of every tunnel. So guys, hang on, stay strong, we are all waiting for the moment to see you guys walk out of the detention camp tall.
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 3
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
...
written by businessman, October 28, 2008 10:39:41
Dear Ali Cordoba,

You said that the French wrote the history book for Algeria therefore the facts in the book cannot be verified because it will sure 'berat sebelah' to picture French as victims in Algeria. Maybe you are absolutely right.

But then later you went on to speak how the non muslims kill all the muslims in Crusade war. By the way, how do you know? Read some books also? Can the books be verified? Are you sure it is not 'berat sebelah'?

My point is our judgement and perception is mould by the way and environment we grow up from. Therefore whether we like it or not, we tend to believe what we want to believe. But what we believe may not be the neccessary truth. So just keep what we believe to ourself, please dont condemn others just because what they believe is different from what we believe.
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 6
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
...
written by amoker, October 28, 2008 12:48:55
Hey, I am back to be able to comment. Anyway, kudos to RPK for being able to write.

Kawaafi,

I agree that Muslims can and should defend their religion if attacked as any religion would be. And they would have our support to equally defend. While Zul Noordin can defend his Islam, his 'high and mighty' approach, only Muslim view are valid and justifications is the context. So, his claim of an Islamic champion falls hollow to the lack of rational argument that is based at least on Islamic principle of justice.

Chipon
"Off course we must be fair. Islam is fair. Islam still allows non-muslims to live and carry out daily life in Muslim states. Islam allows non-muslims to drink alcohol, go to disco clubs and have pre-marital sex among them. Non-muslims can still have those while being in a Muslim country. "

I dun think it is fair to accuse Non Muslims as adultorers, party goers and alcoholic. We are bound by our constitution which is secular in nature and are not thankful that we are 'allowed' to carry on with our life. As a citizen, all are equal to have access to reasonable work & progress. Your sense of reality is nonsense.
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 4
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
...
written by cheekhiaw, October 28, 2008 16:52:12
If that fella was not invited, surely he can setup his own idiots' forum.

He has every right to that. No need to go disturb or infringe on others's right to theirs.

Only an idiot see no difference in the 2 approaches.

xxx
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 3
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
...
written by AsamLaksa, October 28, 2008 18:40:17
Shamsul, as you said the forum is to discuss. So why get upset? Is discussion wrong? Are they even a threat to Islam? If they are not, then why get upset?

Is the law clear? Who says that? No law is ever clear. You need jurisprudence. No Islamic law is identical in any country. What is so clear about it? Go gather all the ulamas and you will find discrepancies.



Ali Cordoba, I am not lying when I said I want Muslims to be confident. How would you know? Have you read my previous postings? Confidence is not a matter of being in the right. Confidence is when you are secure even if you are in the wrong. Only with a confident Muslim society would they stop resorting to violence and move towards dialogue. It is the weak that lashes out when given the opportunity but the confident will keep to their principles.

I want peace. To get peace I need Muslims to be confident. Is that wrong?

So, Islam doesn't need what I want, eh? Peace is not what they want, eh? Seems like it. All I can see are Muslims bickering. Sure is fun moving back towards jahilliah. It sure is easier to control an insecure society. That's one of the basis of divide and rule. Make each party suspicious of the other fuelling their insecurities while the puppet master play them to their tune.

Look, what do you really really want, Ali Cordoba?

You want people to leave Islam alone? Fine. But Islam is encroaching on others.
You want people not to hate Islam? Fine. But Muslims are not showing good examples to be loved by others.
You want world peace? Fine. Then stop propagating hate and fear. How is getting worked up about who killed who more any good?

It's really idiotic to close your mind from different opinions. That is yours and Zul's loss. The prophet never tell you to only learn from your own kind. He would go so far to suggest you go far far away to learn, even in the land of the unbelievers. The prophet is right, you are wrong.

Zul, gentlemanly reply just shows he can be a gentleman. It however fails to make him look less of a fool. And that pleases you? As long as the form is nice to read the substance is immaterial? Ah... this is so like many Malay Muslims that RPK is talking about.



Kawaafi, I have no qualms about Zul not caring about what other people think. But he does not have full luxury for this as he is in the public domain as MP. How will he be effective representing the people who think differently from him? Should he represent the people who voted him or his own convictions? There needs to be a balance.

He should also act as he sees fit. However he should know his limits in carrying out actions. He has no right to stop the forum. He can protest all he wants outside as long as he wants. He did not directly threaten the forum but his actions gave the impression that violence is imminent. It doesn't matter if the threat of violence is real. What matters is whether the persons in the forum appreciates the threat. Just like if I came up to you saying I'm not happy and who knows what will happen to you unless you get lost. It doesn't matter if I have any weapon or any posse, it's about whether you appreciate the threat to your immediate safety. A threat is a threat. It is wrong.
report abuse
disagree 4
agree 6
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
...
written by mamak, October 29, 2008 12:14:13
Zul..
please use your brain...
bikin malu aje...
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 2
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
...
written by AsamLaksa, October 29, 2008 16:28:52
Shamsul, how do you define a topic which "infringes" Islam? Is it any topic? Who decides what "infringes" Islam? You? Ulamas? PAS? UMNO? Or are you more concerned that topics on Islam is discussed among non-Muslims?

1. Why is it wrong to discuss topics which "infringe" Islam? Any special reason(s)?

2. Why is it wrong for discussion on Islam to be carried out by non-Muslims?

3. Was the forum insulting Islam?

4. Did the forum exclude Muslims?

5. Are you upset about it because they didn't consult the religious authorities first?

6. Are you upset because there were no Syariah court judges in the forum?

From your reply it's clear that you do not think Islam is under any threat. It's really about "infringement", not danger to the faith. This is because if it's a threat to Islam you would need to define what the threat is. I can see why Malaysia did not have the inter-faith forum with people like you around.

This "problem" will repeat not because people like to "infringe" on Islam but because there is a real problem. Sweeping it under the carpet will not solve it.

Let's just take one example, what would your suggestion be to address the issue of body-snatching? I'm really curious to know your opinion. There is no use denying the problem. AAB thinks family members must be informed of all conversions. Do you agree with this as well?
report abuse
disagree 5
agree 5
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
...
written by slimbrowser, October 29, 2008 17:48:27
The problem with many of the so called "Islamic Defender" in this forum is that they feel that they the god given right to LORD over others of different faith. They fail to see others as human beings rather than a christian, hindus or other faith. they continuously think that they are indeed Allah's choice and have the right to be superior than others. These people are indeed Hitler Incarnate.

This "Islamic Defender" think that other faiths drinks alcohol, commit adultery, etc and they are clearly clean of all these "sins". And most think that they are duty bound to clear the world of sins by strapping bombs on their body and kill others of different faith. Some very creative ones hijack planes or handphone activated bombs and use it on soft targets.

I do pity these "Islamic Defender" of faith. Their mind is so consumed by their koran and the need for faith cleansing that they lag behind others in mental development. Their only forte is making bombs.

They, like their ulamas, emanate fiery statements condemning other faiths in their sermons, prefering only to keep to themselves. The slightest provocation drive them into fit of anger and go berserk.

People of other faiths who wanted to discuss conversion to Islam and the social problem brought about as a consequence is duly disrupted by this "Islamic Defender". They have very little knowledge on what is being exchanged, but prefering to have it in their mind that others have put their faith in danger.

If they keep it this way, their faith will be in danger.
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 4
...
written by AsamLaksa, October 30, 2008 02:55:22
Slimbrowser, as much as I agree with you in general, I must say that this is Malaysia where Islam is the majority faith thus Islam is discussed a lot whether anyone likes it or not. In the wider world, there are similar defenders of other faiths who are just the same. I have seen plenty of hypocrisy among Muslims and I have also seen plenty of hypocrisy among non-Muslims. We are all humans. (My posts here have been on Islam and Muslims as it is in context with the article by RPK. It is not that I particularly like picking on Islam and Muslims.)

Islam in under the international spotlight at the moment. You can find a lot of literature on Islam published in the past 2 decades. Most of the time the public in general do not care about the local "oddities" in other countries but in this era a little odd Islamic action in a distant country gets international attention. Many enjoy reading negative news on Islam. This is the time we live in.

I think this should not be the case but unfortunately the weakness of many Muslims who succumbed to anger, distrust and hate continue to paint Islam in a bad light. I was glad when I read that there is an initiative by Muslim leaders including Pakistan in trying to open dialogue with the Taliban to seek peace in Afghanistan. I was equally dismayed when Taliban rejected the move because Western forces are still in Afghanistan. I believe a formal channel for dialogue should exist even if the Western forces are still in the country. The Western forces will leave eventually. The faster some form of peace is in place, the earlier they will leave. The examples are Bosnia and Croatia where foreign forces leave once peace was agreed. South Ossetia is on the way too.

I have no quick answer to the problem of Islam's bad rep. But I know being defensive and practising narrow mindedness will not help.

Where do we go from here?
report abuse
disagree 4
agree 3
...
written by emirateswenger, October 30, 2008 08:50:41
Does God need to be defended? I personally don't think so. But I will need someone to "defend/represent" me when I stand before God.

Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself,"you are doing right. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For he who said, "Do not commit adultery,"also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."


Peace.




report abuse
disagree 3
agree 2
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
...
written by PASOK, October 31, 2008 04:57:33

Yes I agree. Islam and Justice have nothing in common.
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 2
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
...
written by AsamLaksa, October 31, 2008 23:18:58
Shamsul, can you please look up the provisions set out in the legislation where it specifically states that no one could discuss matters on Islam with the exceptions of muftis and the royals. I could not find any.

Anyway, laws are not always right. Just answer the questions with sound reasoning. It's a cop out simply saying "the law said so". If you use this mentality, you might as well say ISA is right because the law says so. I promise if your reasoning is sound, I will accept it. So, why was the Bar Council forum so wrong in the eyes of Islam (forget the eyes of Muslim, it's the eyes of Islam that's of real importantce)? One simple question. Ask your mufti is you need help in finding the answer.

Anyway, that is not what is about. The Bar Council was looking at the issues from the point of view of the families affected. They were not looking for the views of the muftis. They are not coming out with solutions. The non-Muslims need a middle ground to voice their problems with the issue. Once the problems are better recognised and categorised then the Islamic authority should approached to find a solution. This is a first step which only looks at the legal issues. There is little need for any mufti's presence as it's not a matter of settling what is right or wrong. It is simply a forum, a first step. Whatever comes out at the forum will not affect Islamic law.

On regards with informing post-conversion, why should anyone be obliged to inform any family member what religion they are converting to. It is the person's choice to inform or not. The problem will arise when the convert failed to inform, does that mean that the conversion is void? There is no point in adding this inform family procedure. However converts should be encouraged to inform the family themselves and this may include a Muslim counsellor. The counsellor provide advice and support and should not force anyone to inform their families.

Even with a law forcing others to inform family of their conversion it would not help in the case like Mr Gan's as there is a case of the inability/unsuitability of Mr Gan to consent to the conversion. Thus even if the eldest son informed the rest of the family, should be it taken for granted?

Mr Gan's case is very interesting. The evidence for his conversion is shaky. Thus are you really sure he has converted? As much as Muslims do not want a non-Muslim to end up in kubur Islam, some people may have other agendas. There would have been no problem if the proof of Mr Gan's conversion is solid. Can you be 100% sure he died a Muslim? Even if Mr Gan's family is informed about his conversion, that may not conclusively make his conversion legit because the process of conversion itself is suspect. For more info on the facts check out the reported articles on this case including the family's view.

The most distressing issue with body snatching is the brusque attitude of the religious authority. They lack sensitivity to the bereaved. There is no need to rush in and claim the body. There need to be dialogue with the family. It gives the impression that the religious authorities are bullies that can have their own way all the time. There was no counselling from the religious authority to help the bereaved come to terms with the sudden relevation of conversion. The family themselves if given convincing evidence of the deceased's conversion would have nothing to oppose a Muslim burial.


cont.
report abuse
disagree 4
agree 3
...
written by AsamLaksa, October 31, 2008 23:19:54
cont.



By default who should have the immediate right to decide on the fate of the deceased's body? Should it be the family or religious authority regardless of who is right in their allegations? Even if the family is wrong, the family should have the first say of what they want to do with the body. It should be up to the religious authority to prove the deceased was a Muslim and convince the family to have a Muslim burial. This is because final rites is a very personal issue. What is the danger if a body is not buried the Muslim way in Islamic teachings? Would a person who lived an Islamic life be denied entry into an Islamic view of the afterlife if the burial is not in accordance with Islamic teachings?

Thus even if the deceased is really a Muslim, the religious authority did not deal with the issue well enough.

It doesn't help that the law is also seen as unfair where a Muslim's estate cannot go to non-Muslims after death. This brought upon the accusation of abuse of the conversion process brought on by the eldest son of Mr Gan.

Shamsul, as a Muslim you may not be upset with the Bar Council forum but other Muslims are obviously upset about it. So perhaps you can tell spread the message to them not to be upset about it. The non-Muslims are upset because it was another clear attempt in censorship and more evidence of religious bullying. This is how censorship works with Muslims, make a big fuss of it, threaten violence and you keep your opponents silent.

Shamsul, just take your time to open your mind and heart to the point of view of your oponents and think about it. What I have said is in no way insulting or challenging the principles of your faith.
report abuse
disagree 4
agree 3
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
...
written by pixieface, November 01, 2008 11:56:53
Religion is a personal choice. Its a CONNECTION between oneself and GOD ALMIGHTY.
ALL RELIGION IS GOOD. ONE DON'T HAVE TO CHAMPION OR FIGHT IN THE NAME OF RELIGION.
BECAUSE NO RELIGION DECREE VIOLENCE.
TOLERANCE IS STILL THE BEST RELIGION.
LETS AGREE TO DISAGREE ON ONE'S PERCEPTION OF EACH RELIGION.
report abuse
disagree 3
agree 3
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
...
written by shamsul siahaan, November 07, 2008 18:02:27
written by AsamLaksa, October 31, 2008 23:18:58

We are just going round and round. The issue at hand is why the need to hold a forum on a non-issue. If someone converts to Islam, he/she would be provided with the necessary documents to prove it. There’s no such thing as 95%, 90% or lower level of proof. Division of property etc is also clearly defined in Islam if the spouse decides against converting to Islam. So is the responsibility for the children’s welfare and education. I also cited the case of Nyonya Tahir, who carried a Muslim name but was proven not practicing Islam in her life time, thus was buried according to the religion that her next-of-kin claimed it to be. So what is the fuss?
report abuse
disagree 1
agree 0

Write comment
This content has been locked. You can no longer post any comment.
You must be logged in to a comment. Please register if you do not have an account yet.

busy
 
< Prev   Next >
 
Some Images Hosted With
Thank You ImageShack!
 BLOGGERS AGAINST ISA

Powered and Optimized for:
Malaysia Today by MT-TEAM