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The Myth of The Islamic State PDF Print
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Wednesday, 15 October 2008 10:23

Book Review:   Islam And The Secular State:  Negotiating The Future of Shari’a, by Abdullahi Ahmed An-Naim

Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA

324 pp, Indexed, US $35.00, 2008.

M. Bakri Musa (www.bakrimusa.com)

Every so often I would read a book that would profoundly affect me.  I have yet however, to get two such books written by the same author, that is, until now.

            In 1990 I came across a paperback, Toward an Islamic Reformation:  Civil Liberties, Human Rights, and International Law,” by Abdullahi A. An-Naim.  I do not remember what prompted me to browse through let alone buy the book.  Its cover design was nondescript, and neither its author nor publisher (University of Syracuse Press) was exactly well known.  But bought the book I did, after scanning only a few pages.

            Despite being only 255 pages, it took me awhile to finish it.  I have read it over many times since.  It is not that An-Naim’s prose is dense (far from it!) rather that the ideas he expounds are breathtakingly refreshing.  They also appeal to my intellectual understanding of my faith.

            That book resurrected my faith in Islam.  Brought up under the traditional teachings of my village Imam, I had difficulty reconciling that with the worldview inculcated in me through my Western liberal education.  The certitudes that had comforted me as a youngster were becoming increasingly less so as an adult.

            I knew however, a religion that gave my parents and grandparents (as well as millions of others) their anchoring stability despite the terrible turbulences in their life must have something substantive to offer.  I took that as a matter of faith.  It was just that I was not getting the message, until I read An-Naim’s book.

            I discovered that many of the issues I had wrestled with were shared with and have been dissected by many great minds in Islam of the past.  This realization reassured me.  Far from weakening my faith, those doubts ironically strengthened it.

Shari’a:  A Human Endeavor

In that earlier book, An-Naim developed further the thesis of his mentor, Sudanese reformer Mahmoud Mohamad Taha, that while the Shari’a was based on the Quran and the Sunnah (sayings and practices of the prophet), nonetheless it remains the works of mortals.  As such the Shari’a suffers from all the limitations inherent in such endeavors.  It is time to revisit it using the same rigorous intellectual tools used by our earlier scholars, while cognizant of today’s universally accepted norms of constitutionalism, gender equality, and human rights, among others.

            That is exactly what An-Naim has been doing with his “The Future of Shari’a Project” at Emory University, Atlanta, where he is the Charles Howard Candler Professor of Law.  Islam And The Secular State:  Negotiating The Future of Shari’a is the culmination of his scholarly effort.

            Like that earlier book, this one is also a slow read despite being written in highly readable prose.  The book is packed with substantive and innovative ideas that require some digesting and much contemplation.  An-Naim’s writing is also precise and concise; he conveys in one sentence what others would take two or three, or even a paragraph.

            An-Naim is a solid scholar but the book is written for a general audience, Muslims and non-Muslims alike.  He uses Arabic phrases sparingly, and there are adequate references in English, Arabic, and other traditionally native Islamic languages including Bahasa (Indonesia).

            An-Naim asserts, “The historical reality is that there has never been an Islamic state, from the state of Abu Bakr, the first caliph in Medina, to Iran, Saudi Arabia, and any other state that claims to be Islamic today.  This obvious reality is due to the incoherence of the idea itself and the practical impossibility of realizing it, not simply to bad experiments that can be rectified in the future.”

            The immediate rebuttal by many Muslims is that there is historical precedent – and a very excellent one – of an Islamic state, that of the first Muslim community in Medinah.  Muslims rightly hold that as the ideal, but it cannot possibly be replicated, led as it was by Prophet Muhammad, s.a.w.  He was both spiritual and political leader.  To have a similar state today would require us to be endowed with another prophet, a blasphemous assumption in Islam.

            Not only is an Islamic state not achievable, it is also not desirable.  The very idea of an Islamic state, according to An-Naim, is based on later European concept of the nation-state and the law, not on Shari’a or Islamic tradition.

            Throughout Islamic (indeed, world) history, there has always been tension between ulamas (and religious establishment generally) versus the state and its rulers, with each trying to use the other to further their own ends.  Caliphs and sultans have co-opted ulamas to justify their (rulers’) power, while ulamas are not shy in maximizing the bounty they get from the state from such collaborations.  In Malaysia for example, they vie with ministers and mandarins for government-issued worldly trinkets as the plushest bungalows, sleekest sedans, and most exalted royal titles.

            A few ulamas have been known to leave their mimbar (pulpit) for political office.  Some like Kelantan’s Nik Aziz do not even bother to separate their roles.  Islam is actively being subjugated by political rulers while religious functionaries eagerly prostituted themselves to the state.

            “As a Muslim, I need a secular state in order to live in accordance with Shari’a out of my own genuine conviction and free choice,” An-Naim declares, “… which is the only valid and legitimate way of being a Muslim.  Belief in Islam, or any other religion, logically requires the possibility of disbelief, because belief has no value if it is coerced.”

            He goes on, “Maintaining institutional separation between Islam and the state while regulating the permanent connection of Islam and politics is a necessary condition for achieving the positive role of the Shari’a now and in the future.”

            Caution here, before hurling the epithets!  An-Naim’s “secular” state does not mean the atheistic communist regime of the Soviet Empire where religion is completely vanished from public sphere, rather one where the state is “morally neutral” with respect to religion.

            America proudly cites its “strict” separation of state and church.  The reality is far different.  Prayers are regularly offered at opening sessions of Congress, and as the current presidential campaign demonstrates, religion is never far from voters’ considerations.

            Muslims yearn for an Islamic state without having the foggiest idea of what that would entail, except for some vague mumbling about it being based on the Quran, Sunnah, and Shari’a.  The reason for the longing is obvious; most so-called Muslim states today fail miserably in the basic task of governing.  Worse, they regularly trample with impunity on the basic rights of their citizens.

            Perversely, this obsession with the Islamic state detracts these leaders from their basic task of governing, and citizens from taking their leaders to task for this elemental failure.  Such fundamental and pressing needs as providing heath care, housing, education, development, and a modicum of freedom are best handled less by fussing over the Shari’a or the Islamic state and more with acquiring the skills of modern management. Today’s Islamists would get closer to achieving their vision of an Islamic state if they would first learn how to build effective and enduring institutions of governance.

Negotiations, Not Religious Fiat

While An-Naim advocates the separation of Islam and Shari’a on one hand from the politics and the state on the other, nonetheless he actively encourages nurturing the relationship between the two, including the state’s regulating the public role of Islam.

            This would first involve reexamining the Shari’a.  “For Muslims, Shari’a should be known and experienced as a source of liberation and self realization,” writes An-Naim, “not a heavy burden of oppressive restriction and harsh punishment.  No action or omission is valid from a Shari’a perspective unless it is completely voluntary, and there is no religious merit in coercive compliance.”  The emphasis is mine, and I would have it in huge fonts framed in every JAKIM office!

            In its time the Shari’a represented a quantum leap in intellectual as well as juridical achievements.  It emancipated women.  Whereas before, women were part of her husband’s inheritance, to be disposed off like the rest of his estate; under the Shari’a they were entitled to their own rightful shares.

            As that other law professor, Harvard’s Noah Feldman, wrote in his Fall and Rise of the Islamic State, “ … for most of its history, Islamic law offered the most liberal and humane legal principles available anywhere in the world.”

            Feldman notes further that with Shari’a the scholars provided the crucial and fundamental checks and balances on the powers of the rulers.  This is exactly what is glaringly absent in many Muslim countries today.  Consequently, self-professed Islamic states like Iran and Saudi Arabia have more in common with fascist Germany and totalitarian Russia, both in the traits of the regimes as well as the tendencies of their leaders.

            It was the genius of those early scholars to be able to reconcile the apparent contradictions in the Quran and Sunnah by resorting to “abrogation,” where certain verses of the Quran “override” earlier ones.  With that they formulated a coherent body of laws that had served the community well for centuries.  They successfully reconciled the earlier Meccan verses that there be no compulsion in matters of faith to the latter Medinah ones relating to apostasy.  Likewise, the latter verses relating to the differential treatment of inheritance between sons and daughters to the earlier verses that declare everyone is equal in the eyes of Allah.

            Abrogation was the tool devised by the ancient scholars; it was not a divine mandate.  Today’s scholars should likewise use their insights and intellectual prowess to formulate a new Shari’a which should also be based on the Quran and the Sunnah.  This is the only basis to make it acceptable to Muslims and not violate our basic beliefs and traditions.  Such an exercise must be inclusive, with engagement of the entire community, utilizing the insights from various disciplines.

            If we were to incorporate the Shari’a into the laws of our country, the objective of advocates of an Islamic state, such “negotiations,” as An-Naim puts it, must necessarily also include non-Muslims, especially for a plural society like Malaysia.  The consequence of this is that the Shari’a formulated for Malaysia would necessarily be different from those for homogenously Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, just like there are significant variations in the Shari’a in the various fighs (jurisprudence) in Islam.

            In short, An-Naim separates the concept versus content of Shari’a.  The concept is readily apparent:  a body of just laws applicable to all based on divine revelations (Quran) and the sunnahs.  All Muslims agree to that, while most non-Muslims could be readily persuaded to the viewpoint of “just laws applicable to all.”  The content however, must necessarily vary with time, place, and culture.  That is An-Naim’s central message.

            The central enduring values of the concept of the Shari’a are regularly missed and often confused by Muslims and non-Muslims alike.  In the West, as Feldman noted, the Shari’a is caricatured by such odious hudud laws as stoning to death for adultery while ignoring the Shari’a stringent standards for conviction.  Contrast that to the gross perversion of justice in many capital convictions in America today, as revealed by the Innocence Project.

            The central premise of the Shari’a is that all – ruler and ruled alike – are subject to its rule.  That is the rule of law at its most fundamental level.  That is a novel concept in the West for most of its history (the prince being above law) as well as in today’s self-professed Islamic states.  Malaysia amended its constitution removing the sultans’ immunity with respect to their personal conduct only in 1993.

            An-Naim has advanced and elevated the debate on the Shari’a and the Islamic state by a quantum leap.  His is a much-needed intellectual antidote to those who would mindlessly exhort “Islam is the answer!” to every political problem, as well as those who delude themselves that the myriad problems facing Muslims today would magically disappear once we establish an Islamic state or a caliphate.

            This book will be widely read in the West.  I hope it will also reach a wide audience in the Islamic world.  Muslims – especially leaders – would do well to expend the necessary intellectual diligence to ponder the totality of the ideas and concepts presented in this book.  We should not dismiss them because they challenge our comfortable assumptions.


Comments (21)Add Comment
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written by megabigblur, October 15, 2008 10:43:43
Interesting. I'll have to take a look at this if my uni gets a copy.

Do you think it will be banned in Malaysia?
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written by cheekhiaw, October 15, 2008 10:44:12
There is ample history for one to see if the thing works - a full 1,500 years of it.

xxx
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written by DreamLady, October 15, 2008 11:00:10
Dr. Bakri, I am confused about your state of mind. One minute, you are nicely on the track, seconds later your brain works you up haywire.
You were full of loving songs for PM after he decided to step down. Prior to the singing songs article you wrote a very harsh article condemning him for the the things he did during the month of Ramadan. And today you write a sobering one to soothe the bruised feeling of the readers... to be continued.........
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written by palani, October 15, 2008 11:22:37
Kudos for the author for his intellectual exposition on Islamic State. This sort of discourse must be encouraged for better understanding of Islam.
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written by DreamLady, October 15, 2008 11:28:52
continue..

Is there anything we could enlighten you so that you could make up your mind which side of the fence you choose to sit on? The rakyat's sentiments should be your priority: they look up to you for guidance, they want transparency, they crave for honesty, and they expect sincerity from you...

to be continue..
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written by Rigi9, October 15, 2008 11:48:11
I will put these books on my shopping list for sure. I am a non-Muslim but read books on all religions. One book about Islam which I really would recommend to everyone is "No god but God" written by the Iranian, Reza Azlan - a fascinating account of the origins, evolution and future of Islam
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written by DreamLady, October 15, 2008 12:06:41
continues..

Instead, you choose to sidestep your responsibilities as an anak bangsa; an upright religious scholar; a justice defender for the innocence; to hit hard against those who use satanic law against their rakyat; and act as a safety net for those who need a shoulder to cry on.......you walk right into the treacherous lane of the destiny best known to you.
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written by richardwong, October 15, 2008 12:35:09
Of course there never was an ideal Islamic State. Having one connotes that there were systems; After the death of the Prophet there was no system to even choose the Grand Leader. A system of governance does not overly depend on a leader's personality, which the "Medina model" did.
Islam, to a layman's mind, is merely God's ordained "orderly way of life to have peace on earth" which is to be consistent with the universal laws of nature, and which fulfills the covenance between God and mankind, ie to serve God Alnoe and to do good in this world, without corrupting the land and being ungrateful to God (such as thinking 'Why should one feed the needy when God would do so if it were to be so willed').
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written by temenggong, October 15, 2008 13:44:56
In over 30 years of readings in religion and philosophy I have yet to read one on the 'principles of islamic state'. If ever such a one is published I bet it would resemble the Human Rights Declaration and the constitution of the United States.

Is this the reason why no muslim nation, party or scholar has yet to elucidate the principles of islamic constitutional law?
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written by ASK4u, October 15, 2008 14:08:03
America proudly cites its “strict” separation of state and church.The reality is far different.Prayers are regularly offered at opening sessions of Congress

Offering prayers cannot be equated with religious interference in the running of a state, Mr Bakri.

and as the current presidential campaign demonstrates, religion is never far from voters’ considerations.

Voters are people. It's not US Govt's open policy. Even individuals that make up the Govt. can have personal preferences. That's their rights, even if they have a fanatical religious or racist mindset but they don't implement it in their "big books". One can be sued for uttering racial or religious slur in the states. Can you see the difference, Mr Bakri?

Shari’a is caricatured by such odious hudud laws as stoning to death for adultery while ignoring the Shari’a stringent standards for conviction. Contrast that to the gross perversion of justice in many capital convictions in America today, as revealed by the Innocence Project.

Is this shari'a the same as some medieval law that necessitates the presence of 4 male witnesses at the crime scene for someone to prove his innocence. Are you also advocating shari'a law over our prevailing Law borrowed from the British. If shari'a is that good, please share with us. Who knows, maybe than, one day shari'a will replace the mainstream law. You also mentioned about the "Innocence Project".At least some civic minded people have initiated the "Innocence Project" back in US/Canada etc. They use post-conviction DNA testing of evidence in order to prove the innocence of convicted inmates. Allow me to digress a bit here. Mr Bakri, compare and contrast this "Innocence Project" with some DNA BILL elsewhere that is going to be enacted into law. The former uses DNA technology to free people whereas the latter, a truly 'double edge sword', can also be used to convict innocent people.

Finally Mr Bakri, a defence against a subject, in this instance shari'a, should be on its own merit. Belittling another system (from another culture) in order for shari'a to look "cute" without providing sufficient proof does not do any good. However, having said all these, it was a good article nevertheless. Keep posting.

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written by Limang, October 15, 2008 14:18:17
NOTE: Comment has been removed as author appears confused between teachings of Islam and practices by Muslims
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written by Admiral Tojo, October 15, 2008 14:45:06
Sweden, Norway, New Zealand are all examples of ISLAMIC STATES - PEACEFUL STATES, where there is justice, law and order and where the citizens are the BOSS. Sunnatullah - God's Law such a slaw of gravity, laws of physics and laws that govern the structuredness of the Universe. Where did we get the idea that Islam is the Arab Religion except from the acceptance of the Arab corruptions and NOT being brave enough to question, implore, reflect and NOT accept anything that we cannot ascertain. We have erroneously taken for granted that ISLAM is the Arab Religion when it is not. The DEEN is a way of life, a paradigm, a state of being and never a religion.

Any State that is touched by this Arab Religion is in a state of turmoil where injustice prevails. If you follow the DEEN on the other hand, you will be at peace. PONDER!!!!

Separation of State and belief is Islamic, as per our Federal Constitution before Arabism crept in like a cancer.

Shalom
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written by temenggong, October 15, 2008 14:49:33
Well said Admiral Tojo!

Although much of the concepts underlying sharia principles 'may' have been original, the contents of it were mostly tribal laws as well as already existing jewish laws. Which is unacceptable to Malaysians.

Needless to say, the context is totally out of place in this 21st century where nearly every nation is multiracial and multireligious and where is the state is expected to play a smaller part in the lives of citizens and most is left to the realms of personal privacy.
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written by Raja Chulan, October 15, 2008 15:16:26
Dear Limang

An excellent views. Please keep it coming
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written by kenny, October 15, 2008 16:16:55
DreamLady, October 15, 2008 11:00:10

DreamLady, I second you, and admire your outspokenness too.
Also, appreciate the fact that you're not just another reader.

I had confusions about Bakri Musa too since before the GE.
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written by Proarte, October 15, 2008 21:37:31
Let us not forget that the idealised 'Islamic State' in Medina during the military rule of Muhammed in Medina saw saw alot of bloodletting of Christian and Jewish communities as well as the majority Arab 'Kafirs' who were polytheists since time immemorial prior to Muhammed. Clearly the Medina Islamic State cannot be a model for a fair , democratic, plural and multi-religious state.
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written by DontPlayGod, October 15, 2008 21:53:41
The Christian countries of old also used the Church to lend legitimacy to their rule, but it has created endless problems and they have since separated the church and the rulers. In other words, they have stopped playing God.

One wonders when the Islamic theocrates or priests will stop playing God? In my humble opinion, there can be nothing more monstrous and heinous than people playing God and punishing/killing people on behalf of God.
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written by renoir, October 16, 2008 02:40:17
First, Dreamlady - you're one sharp femalesmilies/smiley.gif

>An-Naim asserts, “The historical reality is that there has never been an Islamic state]]

Neither has there ever been a Christian state, if by being a "Christian state" we mean one that's literally a "City on a Hill." Come to think of it, the "historical reality" is that there has never been a democratic state either, nor a communist state, nor any other state worthy of its label. This is the case if we go by the requirement for what we consider should be for an Islamic state, that its governance must match exactly what's stated in Islam.

Let's discuss briefly as to why no other form of state has ever existed according to its label, that is, to the principles underlying that label. Take democracy. From its very beginnings in Greece, such states were slave-owning states. Democracy existed only for Greek citizens, not slaves who were mostly non-Greeks. Women too were discriminated - indeed their status dropped precisely during the period of democratization, from about 600 BC to nearly 300 BC. Prior to that, during the Homeric age, women were seen more as partners than as creatures subjected to their menfolk.

The American Founding Fathers were much influenced by Greek civilization, which meant the new nation also kept slaves, deprived women of voting rights, besides going about exterminating Native Americans. Not all whites were treated alike - the right to vote depended on how much property a person had, a measure calculated to marginalize large numbers of landless people. Indeed, nothing frightened the Founding Fathers more than "the mob" and the subtext of the much ballyhooed federal versus state debates could be said to be how to prevent the lower classes from seizing power (and as Howard Zinn noted, suffrage movements such as the Anti-Renter episode and Dorr's Rebellion are seldom mentioned in American school textbooks). So much for democracy.

Let's skim over the communist system as well. In most communist states, but especially under Stalin's Soviet Union, the communist ideal was turned on its head. Marx envisioned a system in which citizens would slowly and steadily acquire an autonomous self, until the day comes when the state itself wouldn't be necessary. In other words, communists were to strive for the abolition of the state. Under Stalin, the reverse occurred: the state was to triumph over the people. Admittedly, there was a reason for this monstrous flip-flop: the Soviet state's survival was threatened with extinction right from the beginning, when the capitalist West interfered with its founding and sent troops to dislodge the Red Army. At least a million people, mostly Russians, died as a consequence of that Western invasion (which also is seldom noted in history books). However, the Western armies were stopped and forced to pull out by around 1920, and from then to the 30s Stalin could've shown what communism really meant, at least at the village level. That he opted for dictatorship was a blow and a betrayal to those who fought for that great ideal.

Nevertheless, the Soviet Union did, within a few decades, emerged from an almost medieval society to become the second superpower of the world. And the standard of living did propel it to nearly First World level - until the Union fragmented itself and experimented with capitalism, an experiment that halved Russia's GDP and resulted in millions of deaths from malnutrition and starvation. Russia became the second country in the industrialized world to have more deaths than births, a phenomenon that lasts to this day (the US was the first, during the Great Depression, again something that history books have ignored or denied).

All systems, then, have their pluses and minuses. For all its faults, democracy does, for much of modern history, allow greater democratic space than any other system. But like all human systems, there would be flaws. Churchill considered democracy to be the best of all bad systems.

I've gone into some detail over this topic because both Muslims and non-Muslims seem to think that there's something weird with the absence of an Islamic state anywhere in the world. They tend to forget that, given the same requirements, that the governance of a state must match its ideals in every aspect, then there's no such thing as a democratic state or any other kind of state we can put a label on either.

If, however, we accept that a state could be labeled as such because it has sufficient features for that label, then it's possible to have a democratic state. Since we're not dealing with the hard sciences, this is the definition I prefer, which is why I call the nordic states "socialist states" even though it does allow capitalism, and why I call most "democratic socialist" states "capitalist states" because in many cases the workers are being swindled by the capitalist elites.

To be continued
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written by renoir, October 16, 2008 02:41:39
Continued

And, in the same fashion, there can be such an entity as an Islamic state. Such an Islamic state could, for example, exploit the concept of abrogation to include laws and customs that might differ from the Quran or existing Sharia laws, but which remain proper under the existing context. I would fancy that the best state is at once Islamic, Christian, Buddhist, etc., as well as democratic and socialistic. I believe that all ideals tend to reflect the common aspirations of mankind.

>Throughout Islamic (indeed, world) history, there has always been tension between ulamas (and religious establishment generally) versus the state and its rulers, with each trying to use the other to further their own ends.]]

If we see ideology as a form of religion, then the same situation could exist in other forms of government as well. Communist countries with a strong bureaucracy would find the party faithful advising it how to run affairs - perhaps the culture ministry would be told to stop screening films that might "pollute" the people's faith in socialism, etc. During Bush Jr's first term, the Christian Right's moral police persuaded the government to allow them to implement a program for schoolchildren that would teach kids to abstain from sex (which many school districts objected as they didn't think the Christian Right people were qualified sex counsellors). Behind this "moral" crusade was, of course, millions of dollars of contracts for teaching materials, all given to friends of the Bush administration. It's human weakness, not restricted to ulamas, that such corruption exists, though that's a popular misconception.

>A few ulamas have been known to leave their mimbar (pulpit) for political office.]]

And in the US people leave their offices to become CEOs of large corporations. Some will go the other way: Henry Paulson went from Goldman Sachs to the Treasury and stood idly by as firms such as Lehman Brothers collapse but - surprise, surprise! - asked Congress for bailout money when Goldman Sachs was next in line.

> Some like Kelantan’s Nik Aziz do not even bother to separate their roles.]]

In this unique case it's precisely because of his religious beliefs that we've a clean government in Kelantan, and why Kelantanese continue to elect him despite monetary enticements from UMNO/BN. Anyone prefering Dr.M to Nik Aziz ought to get his or her head examined. And I say this as a Christian.

> Belief in Islam, or any other religion, logically requires the possibility of disbelief, because belief has no value if it is coerced.”]]

I agree. It would also be nice if Naim were to say to his American hosts: "Belief in the American way of life, like any other belief, logically requires the possibility of disbelief, because belief has no value if it is coerced." Naim might like to know that the US used to include, in its visa form, questions about the applicant's ties to any Communist party, which would be grounds to reject the application.

>Muslims yearn for an Islamic state without having the foggiest idea of what that would entail,]]

Same thing with many who yearned for democracy. Don't get me wrong - as mentioned above I prefer democracy to any other system, but not too many people really know how democracy functions, or indeed how the idea arose in Greece or in modern Western states.

> Worse, they regularly trample with impunity on the basic rights of their citizens.]]

It's a rare government that doesn't do that - trample on the basic rights of their citizens. It's more a question of degree than of occurence.

> fascist Germany and totalitarian Russia]]

Quite often, a nation's system is derived from historical roots. German fascism has similarities with the Prussia of Bismark, and Russian totalitarian the iron grip of the Tsars.

> All Muslims agree to that, while most non-Muslims could be readily persuaded to the viewpoint of “just laws applicable to all.”]]

Yes, as I said above, they should reflect the common aspirations of mankind.

>Malaysia amended its constitution removing the sultans’ immunity with respect to their personal conduct only in 1993.]]

Not necessarily because the Tun wanted the sultans to be responsible, but because he wanted to be the sole dictator in the land. The Tun himself had said that dictatorship was a good thing.

LChuah
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written by Surich, October 16, 2008 10:32:12
written by ASK4u, October 15, 2008 14:08:03
America proudly cites its “strict” separation of state and church.The reality is far different.Prayers are regularly offered at opening sessions of Congress

Offering prayers cannot be equated with religious interference in the running of a state, Mr Bakri.

ASK4u, I beg to disagree with you on this.

http://www.ffrf.org/faq/govt_prayer.php
Prayers at government bodies continue to be litigated because they so frequently “cross the line” and because they are politically divisive. (See legal analysis following for what conduct tends to “cross the line.”) If after reading this analysis you believe a governmental body is clearly violating the law, the Foundation may be able to help you complain, but will need documentation.

Surich
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written by ASK4u, October 16, 2008 12:23:44
Dear Surich,
Thanks for the link. I went through it. Your quote from ffrf website:
Prayers at government bodies continue to be litigated because they so frequently “cross the line” and because they are politically divisive..


The sentence [frequently “cross the line”] draws my attention. The Govt does not endorse or allow that. Again it is the people. US is not free from Christian extremist either. That is the reason why the Govt, as a check and balance mechanism has the "Establishment Clause" to continue litigate Govt bodies.

I said "Offering prayers cannot be equated with religious interference in the running of a state". Religious interference happens when a secular state incorporate some religious law in its policies. Even in Malaysia, non muslim's(even from the opposition party)do not complain when a function starts with 'doa' and ends with 'syukur'(Islamic prayers). Nobody perceive this as religious interference in the running of a state. I hope you can see the difference here. You cannot draw parallels on this two. In US, legislative prayer is in their constitution but there is a "rider" attached to enable citizens to exercise their believe, i.e., "The Establishment Clause". below:

The establishment clause has generally been interpreted to prohibit 1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress, or 2) the preference of one religion over another or the support of a religious idea with no identifiable secular purpose. The first approach is called the "separationist" or "no aid" interpretation, while the second approach is called the "non-preferentialist" or "accommodationist" interpretation. In separationist interpretation, the clause prohibits Congress from aiding religion in any way even if such aid is made without regard to denomination. The accommodationist interpretation prohibits Congress from preferring one religion over another.

Moreover, in Marsh v. Chambers, 463 U.S. 783, 790 (1983). In the Court's language:

To invoke Divine guidance on a public body entrusted with making the laws is not, in these circumstances, an “establishment” of religion or a step toward establishment; it is simply a tolerable acknowledgment of beliefs widely held among the people of this country.

If a legislative prayer were to exceed the confines of the circumstances outlined in Marsh, then no such exception would apply. First and foremost, the prayer opportunity must not be “exploited to proselytize or advance any one, or to disparage any other, faith or belief.” Marsh v. Chambers, 463 U.S. 783, 794 (1983). This applies to the content of the prayers, the selection of the prayer leaders, be they clergy, representatives, or government officials, and the audience to whom the prayer is addressed.

Either way, as per my understanding of "religious interference in the running of a state", I don't see it happening in the US.
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