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Mr. Karpal we just cannot stomach this flip flop government any more .Change it first then hold the elections. It will do the country a lot of good.

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if we wait till PRU 13, the same old shiat will still be there. Rigged elections, EC scums like rashit wannabe will still helm the commission. Bias coverage in the media. Phantom voters, etc.

YOu expect them to play clean come PRU13?

Whislt we may not like the idea of crossover but it is the only way we can save our country. Let PR clean up this mess and then hold a clean PRU13 for everyone. Let everyone decide wisely then.

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I consider myself an idealist as well.
But you read reports of government education institutions not allowed to invite PR state leaders to officiate functions; PR states not invited for SUKMA games meeting you know you are not dealing with a mature democracy.
There is no point of going into the pros and cons of such a move for the fact of the matter is that any hopes of a change to a PR government will have to wait for the next general elections.

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This is one of the most ridiculous statements ever made by Karpal Singh.
It is up to individual MP whether they want to remain with the BN.
It is not for Karpal Singh to "judge" them.

What about SAPP leaving BN?
Was that "unethical"?
Surely it is up to political parties as well as it is a right of indivdual MPs whether or not they wish to stay with BN.

Karpal you better reconsider your position.

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Guys,

PR cannot be too one-sided with the ideas of crossover because it is still being seen as unethical. Hence, YB Karpal is making a clever statement. On one side, you have people supporting it, on the other side people against it.

However, the crossover is still needed because of no confidence against the current government. They already promised early election upon the crossover.

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Mr SINGH..... with all due respect.

The people decides, and the peopel wants CHANGE!!
Yes, it would be IDEAL to change on the ballot, but we have to put idealism on the backseat. Have you not learnt anything of 51 years of BN rule??? You had your chance on 080308, too bad you did not form your government. Another 4-5 years of BN the country would be BEYOND SALVAGE. Did you not see what happened to your Penang, as well as Selangor, let me remind you, missing files, empty offices,etc. After the unholy transition, you are part of the management, then you practice your IDEALISM. Can or not???

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On second thoughts, what the hell, DSAI do whatever it takes to replace the UMNO government. Carry out the necessary reforms, charge the den of thieves for corruption and other astrocities, then call for a fresh election. Let the people decide who falls and who stays to form the new government of Malaysia.

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Step 1 : Form the new govt, with crossovers if necessary.
Step 2 : Clean up the police, SPR etc.
Step 3 : Have GE13.

As a reader pointed out above, we cannot expect a clean GE with BN holding the power at federal.

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Honest Abe Linclon had to fight a bloody war to give live and meaning to his principles. What are we so hung up on principles if it does not bring about change and meaning into our lifes.

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Much as I would love to see BN and UMNO toppled tomorrow with the crossovers, it will be best to call for a snap elections once DSAI has enough MPs coming over to PR. With majority support, DSAI can then form a caretaker government during the intervening period so that EC can be cleaned up with independent and competent folks in place to officiate the snap elections.
This will wipe the slate clean and allow PR to govern legitimately without any accusations of unethical practices.

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Is it unethical to overthrow by crossover an unethical government that steals and rig elections?

What is wrong with members of an unethical government wanting to be less unethical by crossing over, as long as they understand that their decisions will be put to review by the electorate soon after.

Get rid of the unethical government first. Then cleanup the electoral roll & system, and hold new elections like what some PR people had said.

That is a whole lot more ethical than letting things be.

Between the cliff and a hard rock, only fools insist on waiting for a soft bed.

xxx

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written by ilovepakatan, September 30, 2008 10:11:15
Guys,

PR cannot be too one-sided with the ideas of crossover because it is still being seen as unethical. Hence, YB Karpal is making a clever statement. On one side, you have people supporting it, on the other side people against it.

However, the crossover is still needed because of no confidence against the current government. They already promised early election upon the crossover.

This is correct manouvre(DSAI) and correct remedy(Karpal & Tunku)!

They have to be beaten in their own game and then PR form a govt that can call for a new election for a new government to be restored through a transparent, fair election with new clean election machinery and introduce indelible ink to show BN how Pakatan Rakyat practice real democracy.

We will highly see majority win shown to PK sides when fair approaches are practiced for all parties. There have never been unquestionable election results of the BN gomen. PK will show them the Rakyat's choice of government is not BN through the Ballot Box.

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Karpal,

132 Pakatan MPs cannot be sitting on the opposition benches and voting against every bill including the budget! Is this what you want - a nation paralysed in economic chaos and the opposition Pakatan unwilling to takeover and form the govt? And the Agong imposing the Emergency for hte remainder of the term because the Pakatan is waiting for GE?

Grow up and accept reality.

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PK should be PR

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I agree with some commentators above. Forget about ethics, if you do form the federal govt reform all the institutions then have a snap election. If you wait for GE13 there's no telling the incumbent govt will go all out to cheat to stay in power.

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i am starting to think that karpal is just another dense moronic politician.

what electorate process? after all the vote rigging, the corruption, abuse of power, you still couldnt see the big picture?

eventho tunM was a dictator, at least he lifted our economy to a new height, set a starting point for us to to work on and improve. if it was not for him Reformasi movement would not have materialised. our people would not have seen the need to pursue economic strength.

what have you done karpal for malaysians? what major reforms have you done? you are fighting a losing battle until DSAI came to lead you fellas. your colleague was just detained under ISA. yet you still want to leave the to cheat you again?

bloody idiot

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drabdulwahid,

Che Det did not lift our economy to new height.

Our economy was lifted to new heights by oil, timber, oil palm, and because more than 2/3 of the world was not in the global economic picture then.

The Malaysian economy today has to do with India, China, Eastern Europe and Africa coming strongly into the picture the last 10 years or so. That is also partly the reason for the Asian Financial Crisis - some people think their Asian Values were so great while blind to the charging trains overtaking them.

We are not doing well today because of what Che Det put in place - the belief that prosperity can be obtained the easy way, and by demanding special rights to it.

xxx

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Dear Mr Karpal,
Under normal circumstances I agree with you, BUT NOT NOW, because the present BN GOVT is unfair, locked people without charging in court. It is as IF we are fighting a bunch of mad cowboys who are armed to teeth but without WEAPON.

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Sometimes it is wiser to remain silence.

Let the 'new , proactive, positive thinking and younger generation' of forward looking MPs decide for a better Malaysians Malaysia.

Let the Multi-Racial , positive thinking MPs who believed and accepted changes that could benefit the RAKYAT decides for the RAKYAT.

Unproductive MPs that rejected positive changes will not survived in this modern society.

My salute to all Peacemakers.

Selamat Hari Raya Adilfitri kepada seluruh Umat Islam dan Rakyat Malaysia , Maaf Zahir dan Batin.

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Hello Kapal,idiots also know that cross-over to form new government is unethical and should be avoided.However,when you are dealing with an unethical government such as BN,you cannot use ethical way to form new government because you do not have the money to challege them.

If you believe in ethic,please do not get yourself involved in politics,join Red Crescent or Saint John.In politics,you talk about defeating your opponents at all cost !

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densemy,

how is that going to happen?
postal vote? by-election organised by the EC?

xxx

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Anwar has promised that after the takeover, and the Election Commission makes changes to the electoral rolls and constituencies, then within 6-12 months elections will be called.

This is good enough ethics!

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Of course Mahathir, Najib, Hishamuddin, Gani Patail, Musa Hassan (if awake), Ahmad Ismail - will all be under ISA then during the GE13!

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It is a shame to learn that this Car Par being a learned lawyer is being psycho by UMNO to conclude the shift of support of MPs towards PR as crossover.

Even a learned lawyer could not different between crossover and transition in support to government.

No wonder DAP is unable to grow before the PR "Change" motive.

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Come on ...what's the fuss with crossovers?

Accept the crossovers, form a new government and call for snap GE13 to get a clear endorsement from the Rakyat!. The snap election may cost us some $$$ but it helps to give the new government a clear mandate to go ahead and save the nation!!!

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Karpal, it is rather magnanimous of you to talk about ethics. After all, you have a thriving business, a nice home, successful children, nice cars, etc, etc. However, although you have made a comfortable life out of the position you have opted for, please think about the starving jobless Indians, the brilliant non-Malay children who cannot pursue further studies due to lack of funds and unavailability of scholarships, the Indian boys who have been murdered in our jails, the corrupt gangsters who steal from us (our money) in the pretext of being police officers and other government officials.

In short, please do not preach ehtics from your pedestal unless you have the billions of ringgit to replace all those stolen by UMNOputras. You have just disappointed me tremendously. You should leave PKR. The same goes for your rich vice-chairman Aziz also.

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Agree with Tuan Karpal! Don't entice those BN goons to cross over! Better have a clear mandate from people!
On the other hand, PR should work on clean and efficient basis. And if this open the eyes of BN goons who care to cross over; then thats different matter! Voluntary cross over to any of PR component party to form new goverment should be most welcome!

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One more thing Karpal, just take a guess what the bandits in UMNO are thinking of you now? It's along the lines of, "We have an ally in DAP to help us rape the rakyat for another 4 years, hahaha", but with more racist derogatory terms about you.

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Your good intention is understandable for suggesting careful selection of MPs to form an efficient government. 2 years wait is considered a long time.
Unfortunately, the inefficiency of BN to govern has led Anwar in a haste to recruit crossovers as a last resort to stop further damage of our country's health. Understandably, pressure on him is great.
It is not smooth sailing for him to pay back voters after being elected.
He must deliver at least:
1) The release of RPK & Hindraf under ISA.
Hardcore voters demand may push him to deliver as fast as he could.
After all, RPK and the Indians helped & played a major role in his
by-election success.
2) FDI activation to help our economy and to cut red tapes & corruption.
To attract Investors confidence & introduce fair policies.
3) To lower the fuel price for the affected and unaffordable.
4) To stop being a laughing stock worldwide especially to our next door
neighbors.

Please try to understand his goal & determination to change the government as the cost of opportunity will not come again in the very near future or perhaps ever again.
Hope the majority of the Coalition members & voters will continue to support him in this long & delicate journey.
As a tool, the 13th general election 2 years later will itself discipline the traitors and turncoats crossovers.
Guess they would buck up on the day they cross over.
They will change and serve with a good Captain on board.
Please give Anwar & us our best chance now to take over the country's driver seat and form a new government.
To a better tomorrow.

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"Such acts (crossovers) are deplorable and unethical, and won't have the stamp of approval of all right thinking people."

I believe that I belong to the "right thinking" group of people and you don't speak for me.

"Honour amongst thieves" is a valuable ethics that thieves know well to follow if they do not wish to incriminate each other. Are you saying that the MPs follow such ethics ?

There are higher principles and laws involved. If a set of ethical standard do not conform to these principles and laws then every right thinking person ought to reject it. The MPs swore to uphold and defend the constitution and if the government of the day violates the law of the land on a whim or to defend it's selfish interests then it is the duty of all MPs of right conscient to answer this higher calling.

Dear karpal, do you not agree that the country is in serious need of change particularly the judiciary, the election system, the PDRM, the civil service etc. If so and if PR can get enough MPs to initiate meaningful and long term change for the betterment of the nation don't you think that it is not only ethical but a moral imperative that the MPs must answer to ?

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Mr Karpal, I too do agree abt crossovers which in principal is not right,,,,but for the sake of our country we seriously need a change in government immediately...who can stomach all these craps from the current regime ., obviously you cant too i believed...so just once for all bangsa malaysians ...just do it and do it quick before we sink deeper is a mess os shit.

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Dear Mr Karpal. May I remind you that if BN continue to rule, they will CHEATS horribly during the next General Elections! No disrespect though.

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Dear Karpal Sir,
How democratic has the Umno government been?
While I agree with you on mattters of "idealism", keeping these pirates in power would be compromising these ideals of yours to a greater degree - after all, their ability to shift the goalpost is legendary.

What is so wrong about having an early elections after the crossovers, so as to return the mandate to the people??
You still get the best of both worlds, don't you?
Or is it that you fear that you (DAP) would be 'weakened' in a larger coalition?

If that is what you fear, be prepared to eat humble pie, as you have in the last fifty years - although you won't have to do it for that long, considering your age ....

Nevertheless - idealistically speaking, I agree with you, YB.

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And oh yeah - YB, you need to come out of your "old-school" mindset - ASAP!

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I feel there is no need to form a government with cross over members. The PK or DSAI can secure the agreement of those members of the ruling coalition who are not satisfied with the present BN government and arrange for a no confidence motion against the BN government. If the BN government is defeated, it has to resign and seek a fresh election. Pakatan Rakyat could at that election try to secure a majority and form a government legitimately.

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With the highest due respect with Mr. Karpal Singh and Tengku Aziz, I think their sense of ethics is misplaced in this case. It is the people who wants a change of government, not just DSAI or the MPs who decides to cross over. With the current government led by UMNO bringing down the country by the day, it is simply nonsensical to insist BN MPs with a conscience should still stay put and let the country rot for the next few years. And what makes these two YBs think that those who voted for BN in the last election cannot have a change of mind? And what makes you think the BN will not rigged the next election for an unethical win? Why is people like Zaid Ibrahim resigning from the government? The issue of ethics should never arise as the constitution permits it and the people support it. Unless there is a change in circumstances where it is no longer viable to change the government, I say lets change it now! If you worry about the people's true wish on the matter, hold fresh election (after cleaning up the election commission) to test your mandate.

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kapal, where is RPK now ???

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My open letter to YB Karpal Singh on the morality of crossovers.

YB Karpal,

It is with a heavy heart that I read your stand terming crossovers as unethical and immoral.
2 decades ago Sharir Samad resigned and recontested as an Independent in Johor Bahru,
Sharir did just what you are proposing, he did not hop, but got a fresh mandate from the constituents.
This led to the ammendment of the federal constitution in 1990, specifically clause 48(6) which stipulates that
if you resign you are not allowed to contest for the next 5 years, so even if one wants to go back to the people
for a mandate one has to wait 5 years.

Having enacted this ammendment more due to "loss of face" than for reasons of expediency, the BN
with impunity engineered defections in PBS to take control of the Sabah government.
They only take the moral high ground now, when the tables are turned.

So to legislate and anti hop law, without repealing clause 48(6) is patently unfair, as it does not afford a
parlimentarian any recourse in event the will of the people is that he changes affilliation.

A 5 year mandate is not a carte blanche to do as one pleases, maintaining both the anti hop laws as well as
clause 48(6) in its current form accords no remedy in cases where this mandate is abused.

If BN's actions of invoking the ISA to quell political dissent, dangerously playing up racist sentiments, sabotaging opposition ruled states and
grossly mismanaging the economy is not abuse, I don't know what is.

Surely as a veteran parliamentarian, respected constitutional lawyer (my late father used to term you as the best
constitutional lawyer the country has ever had) and influential politician - you can appreciate this.

Besides Anwar has promised that after the takeover, and the Election Commission makes changes to the electoral rolls and constituencies,
ridding us of the dreaded ISA and stabilizing the economy,He will call for fresh polls within a year.

As it is , it is hard enough on Anwar, what with Hadi Awang of PAS declaring that he will not support a
government that does not comprise of a Muslim majority in term of total seats.

I will write Tuan Guru Hadi an open letter too, after Hari Raya and put forward an appeal on behalf of like minded citizens.

Meanwhile I wish you good health and happiness.

Best Regards
Vijay Kumar Murugavell

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Yeah, like when 'nasi sudah menjadi bubur' then you wanna act?
Like when Tun M quelled the pro-refomasi movement in 1998 and Ops Lallang and all the opposition voice 'disappeared'.

It is people like you, Uncle Karpal, is the number one enemy to democracy and human rights.

When you can do the right thing now to make the country a better and dignified one but you choose to hide your cowardice behind big talks such as election.

When PR form the government with 'turncoats and traitors of parliament', it is your duty to see to it that they either accept PR's rules for a trustworthy and a government of integrity or they can remain in BN.

Or maybe, DAP should never accept Tengku Aziz because he is a 'turncoats' too, Uncle Karpal?

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May be our karpal is a bit lost at sea...

xxx

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