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Holier than thou PDF Print
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Friday, 26 September 2008 15:43

By Aloysious Mowe, The Nut Graph

LAST Christmas, after a splendid lunch at a hotel in Kuala Lumpur, my nieces posed with their dad for photographs amidst a glittery forest of Christmas trees in the hotel lobby. Earlier that day they had scrambled to yet another tree, in my mother's house, to open the presents that had been piled up under it in anticipation of their arrival.

None of this is remarkable, except for the fact that my brother-in-law is a strictly observant Malay Muslim, and that at lunch my sister was veiled, as are many Muslim women in Malaysia these days.

 

We didn't pretend, for the sake of my Muslim family's "sensitivities", that Christmas was some kind of jolly secular knees-up. Next to our Christmas tree was set up, as it is every year, a scene made up of carved wooden figures depicting the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem. From the CD player came carols about how he "came down to earth from heaven, who is God and Lord of all", and calls to "come let us adore him, Christ the Lord".

If some people in Malaysia were to have their way, my family would no longer be allowed to celebrate our very Malaysian Christmas. We would be accused of "confusing" my Muslim family, and of being "insensitive" to their faith.


Is Christmas in Malaysia increasingly de-Christian-
ised? (Pic by Arnold Wong, courtesy of Nick Choo)

Mental convolutions

Just before the last election, a group of Muslim non-governmental organisations (NGOs), including the Muslim Youth Movement of Malaysia (Abim) and the Muslim Professionals Forum (MPF), issued a set of demands.  The usual suspects were rounded up for condemnation: "pluralism"; "secular-liberal thought"; the Interfaith Commission; the notion that Malaysia is a secular state, etc.

It is a depressing document to have to read, both for its intellectual dishonesty as well as for its being a fairly accurate reflection of public discourse about Islam in Malaysia today.

The mental convolutions it must take to produce such a document would win a gold medal if intellectual bankruptcy were an Olympic sport. It would be clear to a Martian emerging from her (do notional Martians have gender?) ship in Putrajaya that Islam is an all-pervasive and dominant force in this land. Nevertheless, these Muslim NGOs prefer to paint a picture of Muslims here as a community under siege.

They state that all forms of religious and ethnic extremism must be rejected, and in the next line demand that Muslim organisations have a say in approving the building of non-Muslim places of worship in Muslim-majority areas, because the "sensitivities" of the "local community" must be considered.

It is even suggested that the authorities have been too permissive with regards to the building of non-Muslim places of worship, while being very rigid regarding the erecting of mosques. Does any non-Muslim recognise this state of affairs as congruent with reality as we know it?

The NGOs also call for the strengthening of civil society institutions, and the opening up of greater democratic space. At the same time, they call for the restriction of religious terms such as "Allah" to Muslim use only; condemn those who promote individual rights and freedom of religion for Muslims; and warn the Ministry of Education to ignore non-Muslim concerns about the role that Islamic rituals have in national schools.

Hypersensitivity

The Muslim NGOs also lament the fact that four states and the federal territories have yet to introduce legislation forbidding non-Muslims from proselytising among Muslims. By highlighting this, they perhaps inadvertently explode one of the myths about the Constitution, viz. that it forbids such proselytising. In fact, Article 11(4) states only that non-Muslims may be forbidden by state legislation to preach their faith to Muslims. There is nothing in the Constitution that says this must be done.

These NGOs, however, are the same ones who emerge from under a rock every time there is a Muslim apostasy case, with demands that we should respect the "position" of Islam as guaranteed in the Constitution. Their reading of the Constitution is as dishonest as their interpretations of civil society and democratic space.

One of the dominant tropes in the list of demands is the need for non-Muslims to be "sensitive" to Muslim sensibilities. The authorities justified the recent detention of Teresa Kok under the Internal Security Act (ISA) by claiming that she had injured Muslim sensitivities. Whatever the real political calculations (or miscalculations) behind her detention, the mere allegation of injuring Muslim sensitivities was a sufficient condition to orchestrate a campaign against her.


Some Muslims are feeling that the authorities are not building
enough mosques, compared with churches and temples
(© Keran McKenzie / sxc.hu)

It has come to a point where nothing labelled "Muslim" can be questioned or debated by non-Muslims, and even dissenting Muslims, for fear of injuring "Muslim" sensibilities.

To some, given the dominant position of Muslims in Malaysia, this has the ring of a rich man asking a beggar not to bother him with requests for money: the beggar's pleading is "insensitive", as it highlights the disparity between his enormous wealth and the beggar's poverty. The rich man thinks his comfort should not be disturbed, even if the poor man dies at his doorstep.

Walk into any Muslim bookshop in Kuala Lumpur, and you will come across the works of South African writer Ahmad Deedat. They are filled with vitriol against Christian beliefs, and Christian sensitivities do not enter the picture. A Malay politician slanders the Chinese citizenry of this country (and spouts anti-Semitism in the same breath), and gets away with a three-year suspension from his party, while a journalist who reports his hate-speech is detained under the ISA. When it comes to sensitivities in Malaysia, which community is it that truly has a grievance?

The other point of view

It is easy to adopt a condescending tone when approaching the issue of Muslim sensitivities, especially when it is clear that non-Muslim sensitivities are on a regular basis ridden over roughshod. However, I want to take seriously the idea of the Muslim community's sensitivities. I understand why a pious Muslim could be distressed whenever she sees pork being consumed, or when she sees alcohol being sold openly. A Muslim who finds truth and consolation in his faith will certainly be saddened by the apostasy of another Muslim. These are not trivial matters.


Ahmad Deedat (Public domain. Source: Wikipedia.org)

However, these neuralgic points are just as painful for non-Muslims as they are for Muslims. It pains me to see a Catholic convert to Islam only because Malaysian law (against the weight of Islamic tradition) says she must if she marries a Muslim. I am offended by the toxic writings of Ahmad Deedat, in the same way that some Muslims were offended by Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses or by the Jyllands-Posten cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad. But what is it that causes me not to demand a ban on Ahmad Deedat's books?

I do not believe that those who offend me should as a consequence lose their right to free speech. Racists and bigots should have their opinions challenged and debated: dismissing them from the public sphere simply drives them underground, and who knows then what noxious weed will grow in the dark?

Neither do I think that the world should always pander to all my sensitivities. To have every desire fulfilled, without discernment or accommodation, is to be an infant. We all know the exasperation we feel at friends who are sensitive to the most minor imagined slight, or who are unable to cope with the rough and tumble of relationships. We want to say to them, "Oh, for heaven's sake, just grow up!"

Societies also can be infantilised, and religious societies with strong authoritarian tendencies all the more so. An infantilised religious community is one that will always feel that it is under siege, for it will never have had to take its creeds and practices into the light of reason and charity, those adult qualities so emphasised in the Quran. End of Article


Aloysious Mowe, SJ, was born after Merdeka and considers himself Malaysian by birthright and not by anyone's concession. The last time he checked his passport, it says he was born in Malaysia, not Tanah Melayu.

Comments (45)Add Comment
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written by Ann Meng Sim, September 26, 2008 16:03:39
Hi guys, please do be careful with your comments on this. Many strange creatures on the prowl here.
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written by ahmadneil, September 26, 2008 16:06:51
Before Yasser Arafat dies,he used to go for Christmas mass.I sometimes follow my mother in-law to church also.There is nothing wrong to visit places of worship.
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written by non conformist, September 26, 2008 16:25:22
"Some Muslims are feeling that the authorities are not building
enough mosques, compared with churches and temples
(© Keran McKenzie / sxc.hu)"

Can someone who is informed please let us know the fact here:

Is it the state authorities' business to build mosques, churches and temples for the rakyat? Shouldn't all these religious people be given the freedom to build as many religious buildings as they could use, AND WITH THEIR OWN MONEY?

A religion that needs the cruthces of the tax-payers money to fund its building and activities is most certainly a religion that brings shame, disgrace and reproach to the god of that religion.

The adherents of a particular religion should shoulder fully the cost involved in maintaining and propagating that religion. If they can't, then shame on them.
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written by SocratesI, September 26, 2008 16:33:51

On this topic of "Holier than Thou" I had a very lengthy argument with other commentators on Malaysia Today while commenting on the article "Red Herring" something or other and our comments went on to a marathon record 221 comments before we called a truce. It was with Teo Siew Chin, sks, and batsman then, and it was over how SuperAdmin handled the banning of some guy who called himself "Harimau".

I was for the banning for the foul language and racist comments, but against the wanton disclosure of his name/ identity. The others were all supportive of SuperAdmin, and I was arguing they should not be "Holier than thou" and think that as they disclose their names, others must follow suit !

Bigotry exists everywhere, and we must be ever-vigilant to nip extremism in the bud as much as possible. These bigots always make the excuse that they are serving Allah, when they are actually serving their own insatiable EGOs. Most of these extremists are megalomaniacs, and are narcissistic.

A bigot's stand is usually "I am right and ALL others are wrong." Totally uncompromising and devoid of human values and common sense.

And when religious bigotry mixes with race politics, an incendiary situation is created which we have to douse with cool common sense, and appeal to the good in all human beings. The politicans in Barisan NAJIS are most adept at using this volatile cocktail to try to intimidate the masses and try to scare everyone to toe their line and let them stay in power to continue with their corrupt practises, and pillaging Malaysia.

We must not let them succeed ! They have already succeeded for 51 years, and ENOUGH IS ENOUGH !

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written by Limang, September 26, 2008 16:40:00
For writing these few words, I am living in fear for being ISA-ed, as by posting these words, I will be considered as anti-Islam and writing against Muslim "sensitivities", although I did not say anything, except these few words, but I do see a lot of Muslim disrespect for others and intolerance of others' cultures and beliefs. My relatives who married Muslims, e.g. were told to cut off relationship with us becos we are KAFIRS or UNBELIEVERS! So they have not come to any of our family gatherings or festivities since then, but we never fail to visit them during Hari Raya!

Oooooh. . . . I am living in fear in this land of Islam Hadhari, that is supposed to be fair, bring peace and prosperity to all, even non-Muslims, except that I don't know why I am still living in poverty, after 51 years and sometimes goes hungry as I have no money, as an old out-of-job man. (By the way, I am using a friend's computer to write these words, so don't think I have a computer, that's how poor I am.)
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written by non conformist, September 26, 2008 16:53:13
The picture about the 'super sensitive squad' give me a big chuckle.

If only they give themselves to do something more productive... the world would be a better place!

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written by Mik, September 26, 2008 16:54:20
Wanna know what is freedom of speech? watch the american president. Douglas gave a very good speech in tat movie at the end of the show.
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written by Malaysiaputra, September 26, 2008 19:16:35
Pope Julius I chose December 25. It is commonly believed that the church chose this date in an effort to adopt and absorb the traditions of the pagan Saturnalia festival.

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"It is commonly believe" is a conjecture. Anyway it is not important. It is just a day which Christians who accept it , commemorate the birth of Jesus Christ, the Al Masih .

If I am not wrong the Hari Keputraan Agong is also not the actual birthday of the reigning Agong.
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written by cruzeiro, September 26, 2008 20:01:02
Come on guys ... don't get worked up over this Ahmad Deedat.
Anyway, Aloysius never said he was going on a jihad to slaughter or bomb any infidels right - he was offended, but is secure enough to ignore it.
All he's saying is you don't have to play it up. He never justified the actions deemed insulting to Muslims.
With regard to Deedat, there are more than enough books/literature and Philosophers who could put him to shame had he allowed a fair debate of equals.

To me, Deedat is just a charismatic showman along the lines of Jimmy Swaggart (and many other televangelists), who'd pay any so called "evangelist" to do & say things for a show.
I wouldn't be insulted by anything said by a man who claims that "Halleluyah" means "Allah-hu" - and hence, the word Allah is in the English bible ...

Nevertheless, much of what he says is particularly targeted at ridiculing Christianity, so as to elevate Islam.
This is a characteristic of one who suffers from the insecurity of an inferiority complex, or a salesman.
Anyway, evangelism is somewhat like sales in its method.
That's all.

However, I don't understand the "need" for this attitude to be propagated by those who are comfortable in their faith/ theology.
(But of course, "religion" is a different ballgame .......)

As for Panca Indera - looks like you've got it all figured out, and have found the "eternal truth"! Truly amazing - I'm so impressed, & good for you.
Anyway, FYI, many don't see truth through the same veil/lens/tunnel as you - so just hold your horses on this "truth" of yours, and just learn the meaning of the word "Reciprocity" first, okay .... then you can move on to speaking about "truth.

As for pagan influences in Christianity - it's true, and many can accept that fact.
However, I'd refrain from mentioning anything about Islam on the same, lest I offend "some sensitivities" ....

BTW, Panca Indera, shamsul Siahan - you guys ever heard of Ravi Zacharias, C.S. Lewis, Tolkien or even Malcolm Muggeridge?
They've got fantastic books that discuss Ethics & Morality without belittling other faiths ....
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written by nanakassim, September 26, 2008 20:08:19
written by Panca Indera, September 26, 2008 18:21:57
Dear readers who put negative votes to my comments.


Dear Panca Indera, do not let the number of votes be a measure of the intelligence of those who vote here in MT. I have seen postings that insult other readers and still get high positive votes.
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written by cruzeiro, September 26, 2008 20:14:14
Guys - if you go to that Sharia Lawyers Assn Blog, be careful
This is a message I got on my browser:

"No-Script has blocked a potential cross-site scripting (XSS) attempt from [http://peguamsyarie.********.com/]. Technical details have been logged on to the console.


Q: What is XSS and why should I care?
A: XSS stands for Cross site scripting, a web application vulnerability which allows the attacker to inject malicious code from a certain site into a different site, and can be used by an attacker to "impersonate" a different user or to steal valuable information. This kind of vulnerability has clear implications for NoScript users, because if a whitelisted site is vulnerable to a XSS attack, the attacker can actually run JavaScript code injecting it into the vulnerable site and thus bypassing the whitelist. That's why NoScript features unique and very effective Anti-XSS protection functionality, which prevents untrusted sites from injecting JavaScript code into a trusted web page via reflective XSS and makes NoScript's whitelist bullet-proof.
If you're the technical type and you want to learn more about XSS, you may enjoy reading the excellent Cross Site Scripting Attacks: Xss Exploits and Defense book.
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written by cruzeiro, September 26, 2008 20:15:37
Agree with you on that nanakassim - votes ain't measure of truth either ...
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written by Alice, September 26, 2008 21:24:00
Interesting comments.

Seek and you will find........ don't depend on other people's experiences too much . You seek and you will find .....regardless of what religion you are. GOD IS LOVE. VOTES DO NOT INDICATE THE TRUTH. We are temporary inhabitants of this beautiful earth ..so let's love one another.
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written by marcusg, September 26, 2008 22:59:56
Woah pretty heavy stuff.. I hope the religious bigots out there take a couple of years to figure out what Mr A. Mowe's article is all about.. (before they decide to pull an ISA... )
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written by Susu08, September 26, 2008 23:54:39
I do not like religious bigotry myself .On the other hand, the comments I read sometimes smack of bigotry and it seems to be either ways. What hope for a multireligious and multiracial Malaysia when one party hates the other?
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written by Fairminded, September 27, 2008 01:11:55
I believe in the existence of GOD but then who has the right to claim that they represent him/her? We dont even have the mental capacity to understand or to visualize GOD except through his/her work of art - the universe. However I do not follow any organized religion. The reason is simple. If you study the history of all the great religions of the world (Buddism and Taoism are not religions) like Judaism, christianity, Islam, Sekism etc, there is a common socio-political reason for their origin - that is to unite the people to fight for freedom and against an oppressive force. In the old days people are ignorant and are scattered into tribes. To unite them it is best to invoke God. The Jews were fighting against the Egyptian's enslavement. To unite them, Moses claim that he is the prophet sent by God, Islam too. Muhammed is smarter in the sense that he claimed that he is the last prophet so that people cannot use this ruse again. Seikism is also uniting the seik tribes to fight the British and the Ottaman empire. As such, religions are like gansterism - join me and dont betray me. Once you have a "tatoo" on your forehead as such you belong. That is the reason why all the preaching and recruiting by various religions. It is to sustain and propagate the powers of the "gang". It is deep in the pschyci of all religions. Otherwise why should they care about me going to heaven or not? If I chose to go to hell (probably meet with all the UMNOPUTERAS there for a party of sex,drugs and rock & roo), why should that bothers anyone if it is my free choice? On the otherhand, if Christians and Muslims belong to a monotheistic religion (one God) then they must be worshipping the same God, so the rituals may differ but why argue? Religious freaks piss me off because they preach religion, fight for religion, kill for religion and even die for religion, but never, never live by religion.
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written by FFT, September 27, 2008 01:38:59
But what is it that causes me not to demand a ban on Ahmad Deedat's books?


And with that question, you have hit home the point on the difference between human beings and sunstroked inbreds.

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written by AsamLaksa, September 27, 2008 04:53:13
Panca... Harun Yahya... after I read a few of his articles they just make me sick. He's a pseudo-intellectual who do not argue well against opposing views. Not good reading material.
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written by Tompios, September 27, 2008 07:36:35
As a matter of fact, Aloysious is right! Christmas in Malaysia under siege. Guys, look at the fairness, if you fair enough nobody will complain at you. Christmas is belong to some Christians (not all) followers and will never mean to override the Islamic entity. Just stupid people and narcissist people will be offended of someone business.
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written by Tom n Jerry, September 27, 2008 09:30:47
Sabahans aaaalready experienced such incident many decades ago;during USno regime;in the early 1960*s to 1976;that was when BerjaYA TOOK OVER THE EXTREMIST USNO;todaY IT IS HAPPENING IN MALAYSIA AND EVERYWHERE;its high time to ditch this bull-shit government once & for all! smilies/angry.gif
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written by Thinker, September 27, 2008 09:57:26
Your assessment and comparison on the writings of Ahmad Dedat and Salman Rushie couldn’t be further than the truth and unfairly one-sided. Here is why:

Salman Rushie a is an Indian-British novelist and essayist who wrote the Satanic Verse a fictitious story based on the character of the Muhammad PBUH the messenger or Islam. You can read on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salman_Rushdie

Jyllands-Posten is a newspaper cartoonist who make fun on a man that all Muslims regarded as the Perfect man.An INSULT

Note: As a Christian,how would you feel and react if someone do something similar on Jesus PBUH who you considered as Son of God. No Muslims have and will never poke fun or draw insulting cartoons of Jesus PBUH.

Ahmad Deedat was a was a Muslim author, lecturer, and orator best known for his numerous inter-religious public debates with evangelical Christians, as well as lectures, most of which were centered around Islam, Christianity and the Bible. Refer http://mt.m2day.org/2008/content/view/13118/84/

So how could you put their actions in the same category, when one write fictions, the other draw insulting cartoons and the last attended public debates on issues based on the Bible and Quran, which you and I believed in and considered as the Words of God.

Please Mr Aloysious, do not mislead the readers or confused them.


Let's see. Salman Rushdie wrote a controversial (but boring, imho) book using a fictional character based on Prophet Mohammed and some versions of his biographies by two early Arab biographers.

Deedat writes about the Bible and claims that the contents there are not true in that, among other things, Jesus did not die and was not resurrected when one of the main tenets of Christianity is that Jesus died for the sins on mankind.

I don't think you have any grounds here to tell him not to feel insulted by Deedat if you feel that Rushdie insulted Islam. Rushdie mocked the Muslim prophet's life through a character that parallels some of Prophet Mohammed's life and Deedat implies that Christianity shouldn't exist because it's based on a falsehood.

I feel that both books shouldn't be banned. People should have access to both if they want to and be allowed to read and form an opinion for themselves.
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written by cruzeiro, September 27, 2008 10:06:32
Note: one thing that the Non-Malays must remember is that the word “AMOK” in the English dictionary comes from the Malay word, Mengamok.

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Glad to note that you're proud of a "aberration" in mental states, Pancaindera ... raging is some people's "cool - I inderstand.
Mengamok must be justified in some schools of "thought", I suppose ...

Don't worry, PancaIndera- I understand your definition of "reciprocity" now ... after all your claims on understanding the theology & philosophy of great thinkers!

No wonder you aren't impressed by those who are greatly respected by all known great thinkers who have shaped the modern are .....

Thanks for the feedback anyway.
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written by cruzeiro, September 27, 2008 10:11:54
Typos:-
.... raging is indeed some people's "cool" - I inderstand.

No wonder you aren't impressed by those who are greatly respected by all known great thinkers who have shaped the modern are era.....

Addendum-
Harun Yahya, Sayyid Muhammad Husayn at-Tabataba'i , Syed Qutb, Ali Shariati, Maurice Bucaille,”the Bible, Quran and Science”, must've vouched for "raging"?
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written by cruzeiro, September 27, 2008 10:26:30
written by samesamemam, September 27, 2008 00:24:55

I oso had some difficulty understanding his criticism ......
===================================================

Based on the little that you have written, I can see why you have difficulty in understanding the above.

In many "churches", their hatred for certain schools of thought does transcend the love that they preach.
Just like Deedat and Mahathir, they need to make others look bad just to make themselves feel and look good.
But "goodness" (subject to definition) is rarely what I perceive in people such as these, despite their chest-thumping fiery doomsday proselytizing....

While you may find a million reasons to criticize anybody else, remember that you don't need to do that to enhance your faith in God - you just need to be a good person, and observe the Golden Rule.

That should be enough to see you through, mate ....
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written by shamsul siahaan, September 27, 2008 10:57:26
An extract of what Ahmed Deedat wrote.

GLORIFYING JESUS (PBUH)

He (the Spirit of Truth) shall Glorify
Me (Jesus): for he shall receive of
Mine, and shall shew it unto you.
(Holy Bible John 16:13)

But when the Comforter is come,
Whom I will send unto you
From the Father, even the Spirit
Of truth, which proceedeth from
The Father, he shall Testify
Of Me
(Holy Bible John 15:26)

This promised Comforter, even the Spirit of Truth in whom Truth is personified, when he comes, will bear witness to the truthfulness of the Messiah and absolve him from the calumnies of his enemies.
This is what Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), Al Amin, the Prophet of Truth, eminently succeeded in doing. He made it possible that today, a thousand million Muslims believe in Jesus Christ (pbuh) as one of the mightiest Messengers of God. The Muslims believe in Jesus’ miraculous birth, which many modern day Christians, even Bishops do not believe. And the Muslims also believe in his many miracles, including those of giving life to the dead by God’s leave; and healing those born blind and the lepers by God’s leave. What a mighty testimony! The moving terms of the story of Jesus’ Annunciation is described in the Holy Quran in Surah Maryam 16 – 22.

More than a billion Muslims throughout the world accept the Immaculate Conception of Jesus (pbuh) on the authority of Muhammad (pbuh) alone. Jesus (pbuh), his mother Mary and the whole Christian world can never be able to thank Al Amin –the Spirit of Truth, enough.

WHAT IS THE JEWISH RESPONSE TO JESUS?

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou
That killest the prophets, and
Stonest them which are sent
Unto thee, how often would I
(Jesus) have gathered thy children
Together, even as hen gathereth
Her chickens under her wings,
But ye would not let me!
(Holy Bible Matthew 23:37)


This mighty Messenger of God went after the Jews like a hen after her chickens but they turned on him like vultures to tear him into pieces. Not satisfied with their relentless assaults and harassment and eventual attempt on his life, they charged his mother for having ill-begotten him in sin!

The Jewish Talmudists said,”The son of the adulteress (i.e. The Virgin Mary) brought magic out of Egypt, by cuttings which he had made in his flesh. Jesus practiced magic and deceived, and drove Israel to idolatory.
Dummelow’s Bible Commentary, page 668

EVANGELIST CORROBORATES JEWS

Josh McDowell’s book “Evidence that Demands a Verdict” quotes extensively from the Jewish Talmud without inhibitions.

Pages 85/86 – Jesus is referred to as Ben Pandera, i.e. the son of Pandera, a Roman soldier alleged by the Jews to have raped Mary to produce her illegitimate offspring.

McDowell is a great evangelist, born again Christian, worshipper of Christ, lolls his tongue when quoting calumnies of the enemies against his Lord and God – Jesus. His books are best-sellers in the Christian world
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written by Panca Indera, September 27, 2008 11:14:28
Dear Asam Laksa
Sure! I can hack it.” one man’s meat is another man’s poison.”
We are all free to choose. However the choice preferably, must be based on accurate logic and reasoning using structured think process.Evaluative and critical thinking will a enable a person to form desirable Values as basis of ones Beliefs.
Example: A Single God creates everything.
It has been scientifically proven that the universe is expanding and therefore must have started from a singular point. Refer Stephen William Hawking a British theoretical physicist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Hawking
“Three excellent reasons exist for believing in the big-bang theory. First, and most obvious, the universe is expanding. Second, the theory predicts that 25 percent of the total mass of the universe should be the helium that formed during the first few minutes, an amount that agrees with observations. Finally, and most convincing, is the presence of the cosmic background radiation.”
Evaluative and critical thinking will prompt one to ask, what or who caused the Big Bang.?
To take Newtons first law,” A particle will stay at rest or continue at a constant velocity unless acted upon by an external unbalanced net force.”a bit further ,” Nothing will happen unless acted upon. So the Big Bang did not happened by itself. And move fast forward a thousand trillion times, Man did not appear by chance either.
Man must realize and understand that our five senses, sight, smell, sound, touch, and taste plus our mind and thought is by itself is insufficient to solve or understand everything.
[31.27] And were every tree that is in the earth (made into) pens and the sea (to supply it with ink), with seven more seas to increase it, the words(KNOWLEDGE) of Allah would not come to an end; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.
For Tompious, “As a matter of fact, Aloysious is right! “
>>I understand why a pious Muslim could be distressed whenever she sees pork being consumed, or when she sees alcohol being sold openly.
There is no logical reason why a Muslim should be distress when he/she pork or alcohol being consumed by a non-muslims based on the verse below
(109:6) To you is your religion, and to me, my religion.

>>A Muslim who finds truth and consolation in his faith will certainly be saddened by the apostasy of another Muslim. These are not trivial matters.
No reason why a Muslim should be sadden by a person who change is religion based on the following verse
2.256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
So, how could Aloysious be right when he speaks without reference to the actual Quranic rulings.
As to Cruzerio comment.” Glad to note that you're proud of a "aberration" in mental states”.
Why did you assume or put words that I did not say?
Please don’t let your prejudices cloud your thinking and judgment.
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written by sang0kancil, September 27, 2008 12:46:49
Ya Allah! Panca Indera.

Diam la ko. Kau tu bukannya tahap ulama sangat pun sampai rajin-rajin nak tegur orang.

Yang bagi suka-suka bagi pendapat tu. Kita sama-sama dengar dan ambil iktibar.

Jika dia tersilap, sebaik-baiknya dibiarkan saja dia kerana lambat laun, dia akan tahu juga kesilapannya.

Don't try to act rightous... kerana yang lebih itu hanya Allah yang satu sahaja!
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written by Panca Indera, September 27, 2008 14:27:57
Dear SangOkancil
Refer the Quran
It is a duty and responsibility of every Muslim, NOT JUST ULAMA to remind his brother do good deeds and abstained from sinful or wrong actions ..
It is also the responsibility of every Muslim to defend Islam from mischief .

[2.12] Now surely they themselves are the mischief makers, but they do not perceive
[42.41] And whoever defends himself after his being oppressed, these it is against
4.85] Whoever joins himself (to another) in a good cause shall have a share of it, and whoever joins himself (to another) in an evil cause shall have the responsibility of it, and Allah controls all things whom there is no way (to blame).
[2.286] Allah does not impose upon any soul a duty but to the extent of its ability; for it is (the benefit of) what it has earned and upon it (the evil of) what it has wrought: Our Lord! do not punish us if we forget or make a mistake; Our Lord! do not lay on us a burden as Thou didst lay on those before us, Our Lord do not impose upon us that which we have not the strength to bear; and pardon us and grant us protection and have mercy on us, Thou art our Patron, so help us against the unbelieving people.


>>Jika dia tersilap, sebaik-baiknya dibiarkan saja dia kerana lambat laun, dia akan tahu juga kesilapannya.

Macam mana nak memperbaiki keadaan kalau diam saja?

Lunchai terjun dengan labu2 nya, biarkan, biarkan(is it?)

Don't you think you should defend your belief insted of condenming a muslim brother who is trying to defend. Please tell me where and why I said was wrong
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written by shamsul siahaan, September 27, 2008 14:40:00
written by cruzeiro, September 27, 2008 10:26:30

In many "churches", their hatred for certain schools of thought does transcend the love that they preach.
Just like Deedat and Mahathir, they need to make others look bad just to make themselves feel and look good.
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Maybe we will be able to read Ahmed Deedat‘s thinking by looking at another extract of his writing to find out whether your statement is justified or not. Who are the ones that Deedat made look bad, in order that he feels and look good? I cannot be speaking on behalf of Mahathir.

GOD’S OWN STANDARDS

God Almighty chooses His Own Messengers. He uses His Own Standards although we may not always understand the wisdom of it. Paul alias Saul cries the anomaly:-

For the Jews require a sign
(miracles to convince) and the
Greeks seek after wisdom.
(Holy Bible 1 Corinthians 1 : 22)

God chose Moses (pbuh), a man who was a fugitive from justice and a stutterer. The Holy Bible calls him a man with “uncircumcised lips” (Exodus 6 : 12).

Despite his difficulties when commissioned to confront Pharaoh, the greatest tyrant of the age, Moses (pbuh) cries out to the God of Mercy (Surah Ta Ha Holy Quran 20: 25 – 36

WHY “SUPPOSED”?

Then comes Jesus (pbuh) who was chosen by God. According to Christian teachings, he was a carpenter and the son of a carpenter, with dubious genealogy as recorded in the Gospels:-

And Jesus himself began to be
About thirty years of age, being
(as was supposed) the son of
Joseph …
(Holy Bible Luke 3 : 23

It is obvious that the followers of Christ created two separate genealogies for a man who had no genealogy. Between the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, they give this mighty Messenger of God sixty-six fathers and grandfathers. And of these two separate lists, only one name is common to these two lists and that is of Joseph the Carpenter, who does not fit in anywhere because as Luke records above, he was only the “SUPPOSED” father of Jesus.

EVEN BISHOPS DOUBT

In a “SHOCK SURVEY OF ANGLICAN BISHOPS” in June 1984, it was revealed that 31 of their 39 Bishops thought that “Christ’s miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the Bible”

In deference to the Bishops of the Church of England (the “Anglicans”), the Church of Scotland most respectfully omitted any reference to the “Virgin Birth” from its most recent publication “A STATEMENT OF FAITH.” The topic of the miraculous conception of Jesus (pbuh) is getting increasingly hotter for Western Christianity to handle (please refer to The Daily News, Tuesday, May 22, 1990).
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written by cruzeiro, September 27, 2008 18:45:11
There is no logical reason why a Muslim should be distress when he/she pork or alcohol being consumed by a non-muslims based on the verse below
(109:6) To you is your religion, and to me, my religion.

So, how could Aloysious be right when he speaks without reference to the actual Quranic rulings.
=======================

Hat's off to you, Panca!
Very true what you say here - many more should come out in support of this statement in their conduct as Muslims, I suppose.
Resorting to scripture in defence isn't the answer here though.
He wasn't discussing "Islam" - he was discussing "Muslims" (or at least those who claim to be - depends on how you look at it). In fact, he was addressing a very human sentiment which he himself feels, but wouldn't (and cannot) use to impose upon others.
That's all ...

We are not in the midst of a theological discussion here, Panca - nobody is attacking Islam, as you seem to perceive.
It is only the hypocrisy of human nature that's being discussed here.

Maybe I shouldn't have read too much into your words on the 'mengamok' thingy .... it definitely isn't something one should proudly proclaimed (as in the Umno AGM) as if it is to be envied - that was truly shameless of them.
Anyway, I apologize for presuming that you were proud of this condition which requires Haloperidol.

As for Shamsul,
Go on and feel free to shout it out - we all know what happened to Mufti Murtad (aka MM2007) when he was bold enough to address certain issues.
I shall therefore refrain from saying anything on matters with regard to the Islamic faith (although you can freely say what you like about others), lest I "offend" someone hyper-sensitive league ....
Anyway, say what you like if it makes you feel better.
Anything said for or against any religion/scripture is immaterial
- all that matters is if a man espouses values worthy of a "Man of God", or simply a "Godman".

Assalamualaikum.
Hallelujah, praise the Lord!
(or should I say, Allah-hu ... as Deedat says I should?).
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written by cruzeiro, September 27, 2008 18:47:08
t definitely isn't something that one should proudly proclaimed (as in the Umno AGM), as if it is to be envied - that was truly shameless of them.
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written by Panca Indera, September 28, 2008 03:23:21
Regarding Mr Aloysious statement
>>It pains me to see a Catholic convert to Islam only because Malaysian law (against the weight of Islamic tradition) says she must if she marries a Muslim .

I agree with Aloysious on this point. Its not Islamic tradition though, but in the Quran.
Refer the verses below
[5.5] This day (all) the good things are allowed to you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; and the chaste from among the believing women and the chaste from among those who have been given the Book before you (are lawful for you); when you have given them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for paramours in secret; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

[2.221] And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman, even though she should please you; and do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you; these invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His communications to men, that they may be mindful

From the verses above it is very clear the God said that a Muslim Man cannot marry woman who worship idols e.g Hindus, Taoist, Buddhist i.e. statues or other then the one and only god.

A Muslim man can marry woman form the people of the Book, ie. a jewess or Christian according to 5.5 with provisions given.

The Sharia law in Malaysia however forbid marriages between Muslim men and women from people of the Book. The rational/logic given by these scholars is that the people of the book nowadays are not the same as in the past and they have deviated from the true teaching. Every word in the Quranis the word of God and valid till the end of time. Here are “Muslims” who say that that some of the rulings in the Quran are not applicable any more. It seems they know better than God.

[28.85] Most surely He Who has made the Quran binding on you will bring you back to the destination. Say: My Lord knows best him who has brought the guidance and him who is in manifest error.

Note: In most Mid-East countries Muslim men are not forbidden to marry women from people of the Book.They mid East Ulamas must be wrong according to Malaysian Ulamas standards.

>>Cruzerio, No problem, thanks for the understanding

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written by shamsul siahaan, September 28, 2008 15:24:24
written by Panca Indera, September 28, 2008 03:23:21

A Muslim man can marry woman form the people of the Book, ie. a jewess or Christian according to 5.5 with provisions given.

The Sharia law in Malaysia however forbid marriages between Muslim men and women from people of the Book. The rational/logic given by these scholars is that the people of the book nowadays are not the same as in the past and they have deviated from the true teaching. Every word in the Quranis the word of God and valid till the end of time. Here are “Muslims” who say that that some of the rulings in the Quran are not applicable any more. It seems they know better than God.


Who are people of the Book? A Christian? Which Christian belongs to the Book? The Bible in essence consists of parts of the Taurah, the Book that was revealed to Moses (pbuh) and Injil, which was revealed to Jesus (pbuh). Because only parts of the Taurah and Injil were taken to form the Bible, it’s then called the Old Testament and the New Testament respectively. Numerous alterations have also been made to the Bible. Besides, there are hundreds of Christian denominations. Some of them are opposed to one another. So, how can present day Christians be called the people of the Book when they neither adhere to the Taurah nor the Injil?

Now, what about the Jews? Aren’t they also people of the Book? Present day Jews follow the teachings of the Taurah partially. Instead, they have another holy book written by their rabbis called the Talmud and strict Jews called themselves Talmudists. Trying asking them where is the original Taurah, they’ll give you a blank look.

The Syariah authorities in Malaysia are right in their stand not to recognize present day Christians and Jews as people of the Book. You cannot accuse them of acting as if they know better than God because they have a very good and valid basis to do that.

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Note: In most Mid-East countries Muslim men are not forbidden to marry women from people of the Book. The mid East Ulamas must be wrong according to Malaysian Ulamas standards.


In practice, it’s difficult to differentiate between a Muslim and a non-Muslim in the Middle East. They speak the same language, dress similarly and have looks that are Middle Eastern. Please remember as elsewhere and as in any other religion, there are strict Muslims and there are “loose” Muslims who don’t give two hoots about their religion. It’s not at all a question of Mid East ulamas being wrong in the eyes of the Malaysia ulamas.
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written by shamsul siahaan, September 28, 2008 23:56:01
By Aloysious Mowe, The Nut Graph

They state that all forms of religious and ethnic extremism must be rejected, and in the next line demand that Muslim organisations have a say in approving the building of non-Muslim places of worship in Muslim-majority areas, because the "sensitivities" of the "local community" must be considered.
It is even suggested that the authorities have been too permissive with regards to the building of non-Muslim places of worship, while being very rigid regarding the erecting of mosques. Does any non-Muslim recognise this state of affairs as congruent with reality as we know it?
The NGOs also call for the strengthening of civil society institutions, and the opening up of greater democratic space. At the same time, they call for the restriction of religious terms such as "Allah" to Muslim use only; condemn those who promote individual rights and freedom of religion for Muslims; and warn the Ministry of Education to ignore non-Muslim concerns about the role that Islamic rituals have in national schools.
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You must be out of touch with what is happening. Let me quote you a few instances where strict control must be enforced when it comes to construction of places of worship. Some time back, one funny tree somewhere along the Gopeng-Ipoh main road has a kind of milk-like juice flowing out of a particular spot in the tree bark. Someone must have discovered it. Then, devotees of a particular religion started paying homage to the tree, claiming that their god has sent milk through the tree. Hundreds of people began thronging the area around the tree offering prayers. Eventually, they requested to build a place of worship at the very spot. Of course the authorities did not approve it for various reasons, including the possibility of traffic hazards. Finally, the Forestry Dept had no choice but to cut down the beautiful tree.

In a certain part of Klang, a number of mini praying spots were constructed by the road side because the adherents of a certain religion discovered that those spots were where a number of spiritual datoks appeared and have answered the prayers of a lot people. Their construction of course caused a lot of havoc to traffic flow. Surely the authorities have to step in.

Building of mosques is not as easy as most people perceived. There are a number of conditions to be followed, the most basic being that there should be not less than 40 adult male Muslims within the vicinity who must regularly use the mosque. It is rigid indeed. Are there mosques being torn down? Yes, a number of mosques have been brought down because they were being built without the approval of the authorities. At least, I can quote two, one in Kampung Berembang along Jalan Ampang and another one in Bangi.

I studied in a Catholic school (primary and secondary) in the late sixties until the early seventies. Every morning, a religious session is conducted in the classroom for about half an hour. Of course, Muslim students were not forced to attend the lesson. But how come they were not aware or not “concerned” about the concerns of the Muslims then? Weren’t the Muslims also Malaysians?

The insistence on the use of Allah to mean God by religions other Islam in Malaysia is a new development. Up until recently, it has always been God just as the Germans addressed God as Gott. Why not use Alaha which is God in Aramic/Syriac, the original language of Injil (the Gospel)?

Anyway, it’ll be great to hear Malaysians expressing “Oh, my Allah” instead of the usual “Oh, my God!”

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written by shamsul siahaan, September 29, 2008 11:22:23
written by Panca Indera, September 28, 2008 22:56:31
Salam Brother Shamsul,
hear me out
>>In practice, it’s difficult to differentiate between a Muslim and a non-Muslim in the Middle East.
Not True, I have lived in Mid-East over eight years in two different places. Even I, an “Ajnabi” can differentiate betweem them and they don’t dress similarly! A lot of Muslim dressed like Christians (shirts and long pants and tie)
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In one instance, you said it’s a not difficult to differentiate between a Muslim and a non-Muslim in the Middle East. On the other, you said a lot of Muslims dressed like Christians (shirts and long pants and tie), which means they could be mistaken for Christians. Anyway, let me relate to you my own experience in one of the Middle Eastern cities. I was looking for the mosque. I saw a man dressed in “jubbah” just like most Arabs. So I decided to approach and asked him where the mosque was, using some broken Arabic, “Assalamu ‘alaikum, sheikh, aina al masjid?” (Brother, can you tell where the mosque is) He replied, “’Alaikum salam, ana la a’rifu. Ana masehi” (I don’t know, I am a Christian).
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Who are the Muslims? Do they follow the whole book or only those verses that suits them
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Why don’t we stick to the original argument, i.e. the Muslim view of the ahlul kitab or people of the Book. I argued that from the Muslim point of view, people of the Book must be followers of the original Books that were revealed to Prophet Moses (pbuh) and Prophet Isa (pbuh) (or Jesus, as the Christians addressed him). I am sure you are fully aware that the Taurah was corrupted by later generations of the Israelites. Therefore, the Israelites and future generations disqualified themselves from being the “ahlul kitab”. Then God sent Jesus and revealed to him the Injil (i.e. the Gospel) to bring back the Israelites from their wayward path. The Israelites refused to accept him and have him crucified (at least that is the Christian version of the disappearance of Jesus). So if they went to extent of “crucifying” Jesus, can they claim to be the “ahlul kitab”? Then came Paul @ Saul, who treated Jesus as his arch enemy during Jesus’ life time, but claimed that he has visions of Jesus asking him (Paul @ Saul) to expound and spread the teachings of Jesus (with a number of basic abrogations and additions). Can this people be accepted as the ahlul kitab?
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Another point Think! my man, by your definition, there will not be any Muslim man marrying any women from People of the book without her converting?
Wouldn't it be better to let the marriage take place and let the couple learn Islam together?
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If it is clear that they are not ahlul kitab and still allow Muslim men to marry them without the women converting to Islam, do you realize that the couple will be leading a life “in zina”? Who would be responsible for their committing of the zina and producing children out of wedlock?

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written by sang0kancil, September 29, 2008 16:16:32
Panca-indera...

I don't to bash you but... Are you 100% sure all Muslim really protects and willing to sacrifice for the sake of their Muslim brothers?

Last a few weeks, quite a lot of self-bombing incidents had happened in numerous Islamic countries, such as Pakistan, Iraq and Syria. So what actually motivated these Jihad bombers to do such horrid acts toward their own peoples, their own blood Muslim brothers?

Hopefully Panca-indera can give Us more solid facts about the strength of Muslim “Ummah” in front of Us, the Non-Muslims of Malaysia!
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