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The trees from the forest PDF Print
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Wednesday, 10 September 2008 12:57

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They can work in bars, nightclubs, discos, pubs and karaoke lounges. Never mind if liquor is haram. Just make sure they wear a tudung.

NO HOLDS BARRED

Raja Petra Kamarudin

I conducted a most interesting experiment a couple of days ago. What happened was this. Someone sent me an e-mail disagreeing with something I wrote and I forwarded this e-mail to a friend. My friend then replied to the e-mail although that was not the reason I sent it to him.

The brunt of the ‘disagreement’ was the issue about the tudung.

What I wrote in that article (Inventing new religious rituals) was based on ‘accepted’ historical accounts about the crisis that Prophet Muhammad had to go through when his wife, Aisha, was accused of adultery. And I use inverted commas for ‘accepted’ because this would all depend on whether you are reading the Sunni or Shia version of ‘accepted historical accounts’. After all, is not ‘the Indian Mutiny’ to some an ‘Indian fight for independence’ to others?

My article actually ran into many pages with just a brief one-liner about the tudung. But only that one-liner attracted a response from this chap who sent me that e-mail.

It was like me writing about the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia and I mention in passing that one of those who were massacring the women and children wore a green shirt. The entire point about the ethnic cleansing and about the innocent civilians being butchered is totally ignored. Instead, everyone focuses on the part about the green shirt and an intense debate is centred on just this green shirt.

Anyway, today, I do not wish to talk about the tudung. That was just a one-liner mentioned in passing and not material to the article. What I do want to discuss, however, is the seriousness of my article mentioned above, which analysed why millions of Muslims kill one another until this very day. We all know about the Sunni-Shia conflict. We all know that Shia means Shiatul Ali or the Party of Ali and it is all about the Fourth Caliph, Ali. We all know that Ali was the Prophet’s son-in-law and that it was he who urged the Prophet to divorce Aisha. And we all know, since that day, Aisha and Ali never made up and that this eventually led to the War of the Camel and Ali’s assassination soon after that.

Yes, there was great animosity between Aisha and Ali, the Prophet’s widow and son-in-law respectively. And it all started when Aisha was accidentally left behind in the desert. The young handsome Arab who rode by recognised Aisha because of the tudung that she wore. According to ‘accepted’ historical accounts, the young handsome Arab had never met Aisha before but he recognised her because of the tudung she wore and that he knew, since only the Prophet’s wives wore the tudung, then she must be one of the Prophet’s wives.

That was all I wanted to say. The article was not about the tudung. It was about how the Prophet’s wife was accused of adultery and even she was not asked to swear on the Quran that she is innocent of the allegation. And it was also about, if the Prophet himself never asked his own wife to swear on the Quran that she is innocent of the allegation of sexual misconduct, then how come they are demanding that Anwar Ibrahim do so?

But do they want to talk about this most serious issue? Do they want to discuss how this dark episode in Islam’s history greatly divided the Muslims, which has resulted in millions of Muslims killing Muslims, until today? No, they want to talk about that one-liner mentioned in passing. They want to talk about the tudung.

And that is the debate currently raging in Malaysia Today. The debate is not about the conflict within Islam and the millions who have died because of it. It is not about whether there is such a thing as swearing on the Quran. The debate is about the tudung, though the article was not about the tudung.

That is the mind of the typical Malay. They totally ignore the 99% and harp on the 1% till the cows come home. They ignore the millions of deaths, Muslims dying at the hands of Muslims, and will kill each other over a piece of cloth, the tudung. That is the mind of the typical Malay.

Let us look at another example of how Malays have their priorities screwed up. People have to eat. That is the basic need of humankind. They also need clothes and a roof over their heads. So they need to work to pay for all these needs. And they work in bars, nightclubs, discos, pubs and karaoke lounges that sell liquor, and sometimes sex as well. Hell, they even work in Malaysia Airlines that also sells liquor.

But do these same Malays who appear upset about the debate on the tudung want to debate about this matter? Are they concerned that fellow Muslims need to resort to a ‘haram’ way of life just to put food on the table? If I were to say there is no proof that liquor is haram in Islam, I would get hundreds of messages condemning me. I would be classified as a deviant. Police reports would be made against me. The Minister would threaten to detain me under the Internal Security Act. Why? Because I said there is no proof that liquor is haram in Islam. Of course liquor is haram. How can I say there is no proof it is haram? Outrage, outrage, outrage.

Would these same ‘concerned’ Malays take the trouble to debate on how to help those fellow Muslims, who are forced to resort to a ‘haram’ way of life, find ‘halal’ employment? Would they diligently pay their zakat and ensure that this zakat money reaches those who have no jobs because they are not able to work in bars, nightclubs, discos, pubs and karaoke lounges? Or would they not care because if fellow Muslims have to work in bars, nightclubs, discos, pubs and karaoke lounges then that is their problem, not mine? They can work in bars, nightclubs, discos, pubs and karaoke lounges. Never mind if liquor is haram. Just make sure they wear a tudung.

Yes, much ado about the tudung. Everyone is hot around the collar because of that one-liner mentioned in passing. Who cares about the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia? We want to only debate that green shirt.

And these same outraged and concerned Malays are very silent on the incident where 13 Umno Penang divisions called the Chinese squatters and immigrants. Look at the message below that has been making its rounds and has been posted on a few ‘Malay’ blogs and websites. None of those who sent me e-mails or posted comments about the tudung want to talk about this matter. This is not important. This is not serious. The tudung is.

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YB Brother Anwar Bin Ibrahim (YB BABI) is indeeed a "makhluk perosak", a dangerous pestilent, and a pestiferous living organism!

This is taken directly from Rocky's Bru with permission, and relevant to the country and so I decided to re-publish it. Rocky received the SMS below and I would like all of you like-minded Malaysians to regurgitate this message as long as it takes to understand the gravity of the problem. This message is especially mean to Umno members, those Malay-morons in PKR, and fence-sitter Malays in general on how warped this Malay called BABI is in his desperate and futile quest to be the prime minister of this country. This is what happens when you take money from someone or a country promising that you can be the leader and then will look favourably after the interest of others, this will include giving free water, which Malaysia has in abundance. Below is what appeared in Rocky's Bru:

"Bru: Everyone's doing his/her countdown to Sept 16, the day Anwar Ibrahim says he will topple the government of Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi. This sms is part of the fever that's sending shivers down our collective spine. This one's about how the anxiously-anticipated defection of BN MPs to PR for the sake of 16/9 would reduce cosniderably the Malay-Muslim representation in the new PR government. Sms received last night after buka:

Sebarkan: BN: 140 Kerusi (MP Islam - 89 kerusi; MP bukan Islam - 51) Pakatan: 82 kerusi (MP Islam - 43 kerusi; MP bukan Islam - 39). Katalah jadi 30 yg lompat, semua bukan Islam, maka kerusi Pakatan 43 MP Islam & 69 MP bukan Islam..jika 30 yg lompat, 5 Islam 25 bukan, maka Pakatan jadi 48 MP Islam & 64 bukan Islam..jika inilah yg Anwar kehendaki, maka dia akan memusnah Islam & Melayu di M'sia..kita berdoa agar ia hanya impian kosong & Allah lindungi BN."


So basically if Pakatan Rakyat under YB BABI were to rule the country, Malaysia will be like Bosnia-Herzegovina (B-H) where after Muslims there being massacred those who were spared were forced to accept a "comprehensive" settlement under the Dayton Accord, which allowed the presidency of B-H to be held only by Bosnian-Muslim, the rest of the presidency (or something like a parliament which B-H does not have) will be controllefd by majority Orthodox-Serbs and Catholic-Croats. Mind you after 350,000 Bosnians are unaccounted for, either killed or killed or massacred or massacred, and the Bosnian Muslim only get the dismembered presidency of B-H!!!!

BABI now you know why I am calling you YB BABI because you are indeed a BABI for not knowing your recent history, f*@k you and your "Serbs" and "Croats" for trying to rule this country.

http://www.barkingmagpie.blogspot.com/

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Anyway, here is the latest news from our 50 or so Barisan Nasional Members of Parliament who are now in Taiwan. I was told they have each been given RM50,000 pocket money. But they may not be able to spend it all from the looks of things, judging by the Reuters report below:

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Taiwan shuts last brothel

TAIPEI - AUTHORITIES in central Taiwan have turned off the red light at the county's last legal brothel after the death of its pimp aged 87, newspapers said on Friday.

Ai Le was the last legal brothel in Nantou county in central Taiwan, and police revoked its permit because the 48-year-old business could not be transferred, the Liberty Times reported.

Prostitution has been illegal in Taiwan since 1997, and licensing of new brothels stopped in 1974, but isolated illegal brothels can be found all over the island. Brothels licensed prior to 1974 were allowed to keep operating.

The closure effectively leaves Ai Le's two prostitutes, aged 40 and 50, jobless, the paper added.

A photo in the newspaper shows Ai Le as a building with a pink flower-print facade, rimmed by a tattered roof.

'Actually, with this sort of thing, there's no real loss,' township government Secretary-General Liang Wen Teh said.

'The brothels may have legal permits, but that doesn't mean all the people inside are legal.' – REUTERS, 10 September 2008

Comments (110)Add Comment
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written by MalaysiaBaru, September 10, 2008 13:14:29


Ahmad Ismail is NOT A MUSLIM !

In the recent Permatang Pauh by-election campaign, Bukit Bendera UMNO division chief, Datuk Ahmad Ismail called the Chinese in Malaysia squatters. He claimed that since they are just immigrants, therefore they should not be entitled to the same rights as the Malays. In another word, he believed that the Malays were not immigrants. However, according to the Quran, Allah created Adam and Eve. We are all supposed to be their decendants. Adam and Eve were put in a place near the present day Euphrates River, in Iraq. From this couple, human civilisation begins and spread across the vast expanse of land that God had created. Hence, somehow, the forefathers of the Malays must have migrated from the Middle East and arrived at the present day Malaysia. The same can also be said about the rest of the race who live in Malaysia.

If Ahmad Ismail is a true Muslim, he must realize that all should be entitled to the same rights. In fact, Quran also stated clearly that God is fair and created all men equal. However, this is NOT the view held by Ahmad. Ahmad believes that Malays are not immigrants. If Malays are not immigrants, the only explanation that can be given is that of Evolution. Perhaps Ahmad believes that his forefathers evolved from the Orang Utans who swung from tree to tree in the deep forrest of the piece of land we now call Malaysia. That's why he claimed the Chinese are immigrants, unlike the Malays who originated from this piece of land we now call Malaysia.

So from his assertion, it can clearly be seen that Ahmad Ismail is an Atheist who believes in Evolution.
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written by Mr Smith, September 10, 2008 13:28:36
Pete,
If you take a look at the classified pages of The Sun and Harian Metro you can massage services provided by Malay girls!!!!!! Some them carry Malay names and phone numbers with promises of even 'urut batin'. In fact most of these advertisements are placed by Malay girls.
If you take a walk into one of the golf clubs in the country you will also see Malays drinking beer.
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written by ahmadneil, September 10, 2008 13:29:03
No wonder lah,these MPs who after all these years have been patronizing Ai le's brothel is going back to attend the 87 years old pimp's funeral.
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written by ibabonma, September 10, 2008 13:30:17
I got quarrel with them UMNO, I want them demised and Anwar rules. That’s all.
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written by ellyna, September 10, 2008 13:41:08
Alcohol is relatively expensive. I have seen my Malay factory operators drinking beer and brandy like hard core drinkers. I presume, drinking alcohol is an acquired taste and first timers cannot drink like that. So obviously, these Malay guys have been doing it for quite a while. So whats new??
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written by K W Waran, September 10, 2008 13:41:56
Dearest Bro' YM RPK,

Your versality in the usage of the English word is what that is causing all these confusion amongst the No Spekeh Inglis kind that forces them to harp only on that "green shirt". What to do? Don't we accept the fact that God never created our fingers to be of equal length?

Sir, you can speak/write about the wood, the trees and the forest even, but Dang! , some would still blame you for failing or omitting those birds sitting on those wooden branches. Sheesh!
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written by Spear Bing, September 10, 2008 13:42:46
A public figure will have to accept the occupational hazards that will entail.

So its not surprsing that a man is measured not during times of comfort and contentment but a man is measured during times of challenge and adversity, so said Martin Luther King Jr.

So the mental skill in navigating this 21st century blogosphere is non attachment and non-identification with this verbal and racial slurs and say death to our ego. Leaders need to transcend their mental thoughts and be one-pointed in their principles in being passionate and committed in their inner stuggles to serve above self for the well being and betterment of mankind.

Truth be told, there is a dire need to contain the 'amok' syndrome in this part of the world. If not, history will repeat itself as what had occurred in Medina.
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written by joeawk, September 10, 2008 13:44:22
That Ahmad baruah is a mamak who wants to be more malay than a malay so that the p[seudo malay can continue to screw the malays. Why does anybody think the bapak pseudo malay is going back on his words and rejoining UMNO.

The malays must root out the pseudo malays who have been taking the malays for a ride for a long, long time. may the malays show some malay dignity by separating themselves and the pseudo malays.
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written by Mirage, September 10, 2008 13:48:38
Is he high on grass? I can swear that he look like he is high on grass. Nobody in a saint mind and having merdeka fo 51 years would say something like that, leave alone head of a branch.
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written by sjs, September 10, 2008 13:53:17
Raja Petra Kamarudin,

We must be true to our belief that the new Malaysia must be the “People’s Malaysia”! I request that you change the picture of the leaders under Corridors of Power’ to one that shows multiracial make-up of Malaysia! I hate to see the picture of corrupt Mahathir and Abdullah, every time I read articles under “Corridors of Power” While we acknowledge the current leadership is corrupt to the core, but we are condoning it!
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written by gogsard, September 10, 2008 14:06:20
I suggest who reads RPK article, read it at least 3 times. Then take a 10 mins break to digest. Then you can leave a comment.
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written by Frankfurtguy, September 10, 2008 14:08:39
any person with reasonable mind will not ignore 99% and clinch on the 1% (in fact the one liner about "tudung" is less than 1%)

They just want to catch any word(s) that they can talk or they can catch RPK
These people are crooks and no brainer They keep on missing the point, or purposely missing the point so that they can mislead us

Hello, friends! Our brain are 99% power pact Only brain of you guys are 99% empty!! You think we are rakyat of 1950's or 1960's stupidity and tunnel-vision you are.....hopeless guys
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written by gogsard, September 10, 2008 14:18:22
Aiyo Wanzah. RPK just said it. Its NOT about the GREEN T-SHIRT !
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written by cheemengwong, September 10, 2008 14:32:45
Can you allow me to say this... How can Malaysia be a Muslim country! Will the goverment charge me for sedition if I have said that?

Let me give you some reasons why I want to say like that.

a. We have a Casino operating 24 x 7
b. We have 4 D shops everywhere execpt in Kelantan
c. We have bars, pubs selling liquor till dawn.
d. We have massage parlours providing sex services in most 5 star hotels.
e. We have Muslim ministers like Ahamd saying that apart from Malays, Chinese and Indians cannot have equal rights as citizens of Malaysia.
f. We even have a Prime Minister who practice Islam Hadhari?
g. We have Immigration directors charged for corruption but prays 5 times a day.
h. We have the National Airline serving liqours.
i. Companies involved in liqour, gambling, massage pays taxes and the money in turn being used to build mosque for praying to Allah. Should these companies not pay tax but asked to built roads instead. If like that is it haram to use the road build from sin money?

When does the Government want to do away with Gambling and Liqour? 50 years is long time for no action lah.

Please clarify. Tudung is a piece of textile.

How? Is what is say true?
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written by teo siew chin, September 10, 2008 14:37:42
"...they have each been given RM50,000 pocket money..."
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let me slowly digest this to link with your posting regarding the brothel ... which is about being a prostitute, right? smilies/wink.gif
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written by ahmadneil, September 10, 2008 14:42:27
Dear RPK, You have to pay me RM6 for the Nasi Lemak becos why.You know after reading about the 86 years pimp,I laugh and whatever that I have eaten is now all over the floor.I have to go and buy a new underwear.You owe me a beer.By the way are these MPs giving some pocket money for the 2 jobless pimps.They better do or otherwise these two pimps will start giving RPK names of those who patronize them.WOW,that would be news of the year.
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written by SocratesI, September 10, 2008 14:48:32

Wanzah1 is the epitome of the people RPK talked about regarding the tudung and the green shirt ! Maybe that is all they can focus on and understand, the small, irrelevant issues !

Teo SC is right, Malaysia has "exported" prostitution to Taiwan, in that, the BN MPs who accepted the RM50,000 to go on the trip to Taiwan are no more than prostitutes, and cheap ones at that (RM50,000 / 8 days = RM6,250 per day) cheaper than some social escorts !!

I would also like to open the hornets' nest by stating that LIQUOR IS NOT HARAM IN ISLAM !! Nowhere in the QURAN will you see that liquor is classified as haram ! Pork, yes, because of swine fever that was on an epidemic scale at that time.

What the Quran actually says is that a good Muslim must never be intoxicated to the extent that he loses control of his actions. JJ didn't need to be drunk to have behaved in the manner described by Wanzah1 ... he is capable of doing that without being drunk and he was just pretending he was under the influence of alcohol, as Dutch Courage !

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written by Super Admin, September 10, 2008 14:49:22
WANZAH1, you better get some professional help. Boy, do you need it.
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written by SocratesI, September 10, 2008 14:59:39

Actually, Pete, it is quite natural for people to focus on the 1% and lose sight of the 99%.

Let us conduct an experiment. If you draw a black dot (say, 1 mm in diameter) in the centre of a white card (size of a name card), when you show it to people and ask them what they see, almost everyone will tell you they see a black dot ! And then when you point out that there is white card too, they blink at least twice, before saying either "Oh ya ... hor" or "So ... what has that got to do with the black dot ??" People, Hah !!

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written by Msiasky, September 10, 2008 15:00:42
Wanzah1,
You still miss the point Pete try to bring out.

So if base on your point, arak is haram. Very good point and do you know that with this point alone there will be many many Muslin can not work in Mas Airline. Why I say so because I did drink alcohol serve by the MAS cabin crew and MAS Airline serve alcohol. (Pete bring up this point in one of his article)

So now, the 3 millions foreign workers (referring in your message as immigrant) will increase much more because Muslim is more difficult to cari makan.

I can only say this, you PROVE Pete is right in this article. 99% vs 1%
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written by cwy, September 10, 2008 15:06:14
"And these same outraged and concerned Malays are very silent on the incident where 13 Umno Penang divisions called the Chinese squatters and immigrants."

Many Malays are mentally retarded by the UMNO's "Ketuanan Melayu"!
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written by aryn, September 10, 2008 15:29:23
RM50,000 only? Don't even bother to get out of bed. Thought its more than that.

At least babi need not have to answer God for any sins but those calling others name, I guess is lower than an animal.
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written by Vanquish, September 10, 2008 15:31:41
Wow, nice "trap" you set there (the "tudung article) for the ignorants, bro RPK... Hehehe... smilies/grin.gif
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written by chipon, September 10, 2008 15:38:04
The only way to stop Muslim from having anything to do with Liquor is to promote Islamic Law to Muslims!

There's nothing wrong having liquor shops, biggest casinos, 4D shop, pig farming, discos, karoeke lounges, sex club etc etc..Non-Muslim can still have those..no worries.

Thats why Islamic Life is the way to help the Muslims of this country.
And because of that that I trust Anwar Ibrahim. He was President of ABIM. His inner lifestyle didn't change untill now. He is Islamic. He will definitely encourage all the Islamic Movements/Group in Malaysia to promote Islamic Way of Life. Trust me on this.
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written by Vanquish, September 10, 2008 15:41:56
"And these same outraged and concerned Malays are very silent on the incident where 13 Umno Penang divisions called the Chinese squatters and immigrants."

Sigh... This is, unfortunately, quite true... smilies/sad.gif
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written by FFT, September 10, 2008 15:42:05
LMFAO!!! In addition to the closed brothel, a 6.1 magnitude earthquake hit Taiwan just as soon as the last batch of BN bozos arrived there.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/c...012163.htm

At this point, they should start taking a hint.
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written by cruzeiro, September 10, 2008 15:51:37
Dang!
Pete - I did wonder why an article that didn't really discuss the tudung was being the point of reference in the "great tudung debate"....
I thought I had missed it somewhere along the line!
Now you tell me that there was no such article?

Then we have these guys like wanzah screaming out their ignorance - I actually bypassed(as I do with all screamers) it until I noted your reply .....

Pete, some are just "thick like a brick" (that reminds me of Tull...).
Why don't they just ***** on the ads above (like Suami Anda Pancut Awal?) and not advertise their ignorance, only god knows ....
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written by truthbespoken, September 10, 2008 16:17:58
Bah! Too much talk on religion always create more confusion and constipation.

Be realistic people! Religion is not everyone's main course for sure and it will always remain so till thy kingdom come, whether you like it or not. There is just no need to go on harping on it day in and day out. It's sooooo boring knowing that whatever one say or quote from religious scriptures will always be disputed by others somehow, anytime of the day, you bet.

Our time, instead of arguing about religion, should be put to more productive use to see how the daily bread of the people can be met and the living standard of the people be further uplifted. God has his own better reasons for placing us here.

I dare say so because NOBODY will ever be right or wrong on this subject of religion, never, ever! Period!
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written by Super Admin, September 10, 2008 16:27:12
Ijalz, you mean you also think that talking about the tudung is more important than trying to prevent another May 13 that the Umno Penang cows are trying to start?
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written by Super Admin, September 10, 2008 16:37:59
chipon, please speak in English.
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written by Wudan, September 10, 2008 16:39:58
Ada 'burung murai' sudah kena cabut ekor. Kah kah kah
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written by cruzeiro, September 10, 2008 16:43:07
Hoi wanzah,
Stop crying - it was becos you insist on shouting with uppercase!
Don't be so "Thick"!
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written by teo siew chin, September 10, 2008 16:48:37
It probably will be appreciated if future articles be in the most simplistic form becos it is quite apparent that the words/phrases used may be a tad too tough for many to grasp. Unless if in sms-form? smilies/grin.gif
It's a pity but such is the reality.
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written by charcoy feng, September 10, 2008 16:49:00
Who the hell owns and patronizes hundreds of dangdut joints scatterd all over the country??? Never seen any hallal sign at any of the entrances....
Umno Penang Cows - It's high time to contain the mad cow disease. As Usual... Prevention is better than cure.
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written by Super Admin, September 10, 2008 16:50:34
WANZAH1, pergi main jauh-jauh sikit.
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written by DezMalaysia, September 10, 2008 16:53:08
"Sometimes the dUMBOs just dont get it... and they have nothing at all in their heads after 51years !"

That's the best way to describe em' !
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written by teo siew chin, September 10, 2008 16:59:54
Dear Socrates1 - good experiment! And I have been told that it is very difficult to see the big picture when one is inside the picture. smilies/grin.gif
As for playing with words...the unpunctuated "The teacher said he is a fool" situation abounds.
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written by kawaafi, September 10, 2008 17:03:01
Salam RPK,
I ignored your one liner tudung in the Aisha vs Ali article as well. The Aisha vs Ali story had been discussed widely in a different forum and blog. This blog is about for a better Malaysia and down with the BN/UMNO. Lets focus on that.
I commented on the e-mail tudung issue (even though its a bit wierd you were posting that article) because ur friend response is blatantly wrong and I have some points to make. I would be the 'silence satan' if i were to ignore the ignorance.
I totally agree on the fact that there is no mubalahah in the case of saiful vs DSAI. Or the one where Najib was doing everywhere to swear ^$^%*(&^%^$..
But I do not have anything new to say but "I agree with you" and not about to curse nobody for that reason. So keeping quiet does not mean i did not support what you are saying or agree with the other side.
But for you to post an article and trap your blog members is uncall for.. If you have problem with that one guy who send you the email than settle it with him ya..

regards
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written by laksa maner, September 10, 2008 17:08:18
YM RPK, I am totally agree with you.

BN especially UMNO do nothing to develop Muslim career. They never do their job and survey where are the Muslims in Malaysia working. If they don't know where, then of course they don't ask why & how it happened. What about to propose how to resolve the problem.

Muslim sometimes have to take the job because government not creating enough job for them. Even, the grads also jobless. Gomen with their own interest, bring over the other nationality to allow to enter our country and to be employed. To them, janji dia dapat hasil dari supply manpower & approved permit cukup lah.

How bad living in Malaysia as citizen.
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written by DezMalaysia, September 10, 2008 17:08:46
Hmmm... this article reminds me of something that RPK had mentioned before on the Selangor's Projek Babi Negara...

Makan BABI haram, Untung dari perniagaan BABI, OK ?

For the dUMBOs, sure OK mar... they practice distorted version ever since the Hadhari version was launched.
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written by teo siew chin, September 10, 2008 17:10:01
Dear WANZAH1 - please calm down, take your time and post your comment again.
Do it is a language you are comfortable with even.
I really want to know what it is you are trying to state.
Just keep it simple.
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written by Raja Petra, September 10, 2008 17:13:07
kawaafi, I am glad you brought up that 'silent Satan' point. That, coincidentally, is exactly my point.

freelancer, yeap, I have to admit it, I am confused - confused why Malays bikin tak serupa cakap and cakap banyak pasal Islam tapi tak ikut.
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written by laksa maner, September 10, 2008 17:20:50
wanzah1,

That's why we must reject UMNO & BN totally. SIMPLE. If talk about UMNO morons, I guess u know more than me. Sometimes for certain of them, there is no more word to say.
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written by SocratesI, September 10, 2008 17:21:39
Wanzah1 is unrepentant ! He should go read the Quran and have a good stiff drink while he is at it, so that he won't misinterpret the Quran again !!

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written by smalluncle, September 10, 2008 17:26:14
are you sure about the alcohol part? I remember One Y Babi Besar was so mabuk, he pinch a waitress backside. Probably he drank Halal beer?

Eh, I thought Polis R D M promise to investigate?Y so quite? Maybe like DPP Yusof said in Court today, " tis matter is NOT of pulic interest? "

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written by Ben, September 10, 2008 17:28:10
I am a stickler for proper grammar and usage in my own writing. Bad writing makes a very negative first impression on me as well. I think that if we're a people who share a common language, we should all speak and write it correctly.

Every language has its complexities, of course, but most are in some way simpler. In Malay, once you've learned the sounds of all the letters, you can pronounce anything. The sounds don't change as ours do. In Mandarin, there are no plurals; they say one dog, two dog, and three dog. In German, all the nouns are capitalized. In Spanish, they don't even bother with a word for the concept "it." They just skip the whole thing. If that thing over there is red, they say "is red." Done.

English is also much more concise and less wordy. We can say more in less words, which is one of the reasons that English is the official language of air traffic control worldwide. Please carry on.
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written by cahaya, September 10, 2008 17:29:35
Dear Pete

Why do some see individual trees while others see a forest? Why did someone focus on the “tudung” one-liner while others could appreciate your entire article? The reason is cultural. An individualistic mentality versus a collectivist mentality. David Brooks, “Harmony and the dream”, IHT, 12 August 2008, explains it like this:

The world can be divided in many ways - rich and poor, democratic and authoritarian - but one of the most striking is the divide between the societies with an individualist mentality and the ones with a collectivist mentality.
If shown a fish tank, the individualistic will describe the biggest fish, while the collectivist will describe the fish tank, the context in which the fish swim.
The individualistic countries tend to put rights and privacy first. People in these societies tend to overvalue their own skills and overestimate their own importance to any group effort. People in collective societies tend to value harmony and duty. They tend to underestimate their own skills and are more self-effacing when describing their contributions to group efforts.

This cultural bias probably overflows to politics. As I see it:
Leaders in a self-centred individualistic party will overvalue their own importance, their race or religion, and hence play racial politics.
Leaders in a collectivist party, however, will value the entire community, therefore they will promote multi-racial relationships and multi-religious harmony.

William Leong (PKR, MP for Selayang) wrote recently that racial politics has no future:
Barisan Nasional should stop playing the racial card. They should stop trying to create divisions and strife for their political survival. . . . The world has rejected racial politics long ago. It is only the Barisan Nasional that still uses racial politics. It is because of Barisan Nasional policies that we still have not become an integrated society. It has taken 51 long years but finally the Malaysian people on March 8, 2008 rejected racial politics and on August 26, it was buried in Permatang Pauh. . . . .what is important is that Barisan Nasional and its component.parties accept that racial politics is dead.
http://mt.m2day.org/2008/content/view/12327/84/

Thanks again for your efforts. Hidup Bangsa Malaysia!
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written by dkkl, September 10, 2008 17:35:41
Wearing tudung? Is malaysia gonna hit by sand storm? Ok, then I will wear the ninja turtle suit cover from head to toe....
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written by slash n burn, September 10, 2008 17:45:44
Babi still can be eaten during emegency/darurat/war not to full but just enough to keep you alive. No wonder Projek Babi Negara is viable, maybe Khir Toyo forseen darurat in near future.
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written by johntyc, September 10, 2008 17:54:52
Mungkin Wakil Rakyat BN yang lompat ke PR terdiri daripada 15 yang Islam dan 15 yang lain bukan Islam. Siapa tau?

Anwar berhasrat untuk menegakkan kebenaran dan keadilan. Maka, tak salah sekiranya agak ramai orang bukan Islam memberi sokongan kepadanya. Saya percaya adalah lebih ramai orang Islam dan orang Melayu yang menyokong Anwar, PKR serta PR daripada yang menyokong UMNO dan BN.

Semoga Allah melindungi Anwar serta mereka2 yang bertaubat.
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written by kawaafi, September 10, 2008 18:16:09
Salam RPK,

Silence Satan refered to someone who is keeping quiet on the wrong matter in front of him while he has the knowledge, and able to counter with some points. Keeping queit is a better option than post something stupid or curse people for no reason.

dkkl,
Muslim women wear tudung not because sand storm but to follow (in practice) the word of GOD. For you to say what you had posted, made you at the same with the stupid Ahmad Ismail to say Chinese is 'menumpang' in Malaysia.
And we are suppose to talk about a better Malaysia?

regards
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written by Mik, September 10, 2008 18:45:09
This is funny. From the comments, i see that most of the readers still don't understand what RPK is saying. Dear rpk, are you going to write another article to explain this article ? *lol*
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written by gogsard, September 10, 2008 19:16:01
Pete, I think you should prepare another write up to unlock the "mystery" of this article, like u did with the this piece.
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written by gorshan, September 10, 2008 19:23:26
so if arak is haram then what was in that cup Jesus(Nabi Isa) was passing around among his disciples, air sirap?

i m not trying to instigate anyone here,just needs to know
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written by Durnfordi, September 10, 2008 19:31:11
Hi Wanzah1, I think I understand what you're trying to say regarding the tudung and arak. I think what RPK is trying to point out here is that while these things are important, there are other things that is just as important in Islam like justice. I have great respect for Islam though I'm not a Muslim. Just that it seems a lot of Malays pay more attention to things like tudung but ignore the other aspects of Islam that is just as important. Perhaps we are missing something in between. I think we need to have the right balance. Thank you
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written by lynn, September 10, 2008 19:46:43
RPK,
You can talk until the cows come home & some people just cannot grasp the salient points. This inability to think logically, in an organised manner, their lacking sense of perception is probably due to their upbringing/ background, inferior education, etc. Our education policies are not designed to "encourage" logic & reason. If you speak to a Malaysian 16 yr old and one from the US, you would find a world of difference between the two. One is articulate & confident while the other grope around with wrong words, bad pronunciation & generally sound like a moron. It's our education system, lah. It's designed to create generations of less-smart people who are easily controlled and manipulated. Try telling them the truth, they get angry. Try giving out the truth, you may be charged for sedition. Pathetic.

Some days I wonder where you got the patience to explain to these people. But I salute you, RPK, you are one in a hundred million & Malaysians are so lucky to have you. Thank you for everything.
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written by SocratesI, September 10, 2008 19:50:57
WANZAH1,

Socrates was a philosopher, not and never was a god !! Dionysus is the Greek God of Wine if you would like to know !

Are Muslims so short of Faith and Strength that they cannot restrain themselves from being intoxicated by liquor, if there are no Syariah laws banning them from consuming alcohol ??!! Is that what you are saying ?? Your Ustaz in school probably just tried to keep it simple then to say that liquor intoxicates man and therefore is an evil drink. I would still challenge him, and you to find me that clause in the Quran to say that Muslims are banned from drinking alcohol !

Anyway, we digress from much more important issues ...
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written by Liberace, September 10, 2008 20:48:55
Wanzah 1,

I missed your comment but if it's been removed, my bet is that it was a very rude piece of work. You can disagree as many do on MT, but let's keep it civil. Given the state of your English, perhaps you should also get someone to explain what RPK is trying to say. That should save everyone a lot pain.
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written by Old Man, September 10, 2008 21:10:39
Sir RPK,
Probably, the Govt is telling the Raykat that giving RM50,000/= each for the MP to spend in Taiwan is like giving school going children RM5/= for them to spend for the day.
The sleepy PM is an example of a Chinese Emperor who was brought down by his subjects.
When one of the Ministers told him, "Your Highness, the people got no rice to eat." The Emperor answered, "Then tell them to eat meat balls!"
Wonder when will the sleepy Playbody wake up?
smilies/angry.gif smilies/angry.gif smilies/angry.gif
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written by hamid, September 10, 2008 22:20:16
Yes! you are right RPK, Muslims are ungrateful people! They bite the feeding hand, see the Indonesian Muslims..... usually the US the one that help them first hand in case of any disaster but yet they hate them like anything. Same goes to Malaysian Muslim's, more then 80% of the country tax paid by non-muslims, Muslims don't find it disturbed, but if the non-muslims MPs are more then Muslim's in parliament will make them go crazy.

I use said to every Muslim's, "the great enemy to Muslims is another Muslim's" unfortunately they don't realize that!!
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written by Sofiyant, September 10, 2008 22:27:35
How stupid is stupid? smilies/shocked.gif
Do you want to discover that? Or your friends, relative or anyone wondering to know such important question.smilies/cool.gif

Please asked them to read Malaysian newspapers & watch local TV news related to Politics, Malays & Muslim. Guarantee you will discover it smilies/wink.gif smilies/grin.gif

Malaysian Gov love holidays. Why so much noise 50 MP's went to Taiwan? Why? Nothing new what... We spend millions to send a p.nd.n to space do nothin, nowdays just being celebrity.. forgotten that?. Please laa..
Shame..shame..memalukan..muslim ppl. Nothing new about tudung story & the main point you making Pete. Lemah fikiran, can't take difficult things that needs to be given tought, easy going things are welcome...haha..
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written by hamid, September 10, 2008 22:30:53
I used to said to every Muslim's, "the great enemy of Muslims is another Muslim's" unfortunately they don't realize that!! You can't find any non-muslims country ill-treat muslims just because they are muslims but you can find many muslims country ill-treat non-muslims just because they non-muslim. smilies/cry.gif smilies/cry.gif smilies/cry.gif
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written by The dragonheart, September 10, 2008 22:46:11
If every one read an engineering can becomes an engineer, read a medical book can become a doctor, reads the Bible can be a priest, reads the Quran and becomes an ulamak so on so forth ..we don't need colleges and universities...

Funny though, many people in here are not Muslim, no Aqidah knowledge, no basic understanding what Islam is dare to make Islamic fatwa in here that "nowhere in the QURAN will you see that liquor is classified as haram ". There are 3 different surah talks about wine, the first two were reveal in Mecca and the 3rd in Madinah. only the third surah says wine is prohibited (Haram)

If smart people wants to play with words, and chemistry knowledge , of course wine is not liquor and liquor is not wine...however both are intoxicated fluids.

Islamic Jurisprudence have four sources of law, i.e. The Quran, the Hadist, Ijmak/Itihad of mutajahid islamic scholars and Qias.

LSD, Marijuana, Morphine, brandy, toddy are all not in either the Quran or Hadist... so those who are smart with their words would say "Nothing in the Quran says these substances are Haram. so u may consume them cause Islam is a practical and easy religion". Help me God and show me the right path...

No point of me explaining how ijmak or qias works... I don't think people here are interested to know...but the point is, read to understand and read holistically.. if you have doubts, go to the experts and knowledgeable people.

We hate to see the blind leading the blind... 3 blind men will learn that the shape of an elephant is like a serpent (based on the trunk) the second would say it is like a wall (based on the abdomen) and the 3rd man says it is like a tree trunk (based on the legs).

I strongly feel MT should concentrate in matters they are fully verse in and not something that is not their bread and butter...

MT have done a great job in promoting democracy and as a watch dog for corrupted leaders.... keep it up... when talking about Islam, we sometimes don't realized that we are actually spitting up in the air and at last the spit drops back on our very face... and the ignorant listeners becomes the 3 blind men...
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written by Panca Indera, September 11, 2008 00:07:27
Borrowed from http://almizan.org/new/introdu...troduction

There are two methods of explaining the meaning of the Quran i.e. its exegesis.

i) The exegete takes a problem emanating from a Qur'anic statement, looks at it from academic and philosophical point of view, weighs the pros and cons and with the help of the philosophy, science and logic decides what the true answer should be. Thereafter, he takes the verse and fits it anyhow on that answer which, he thinks, is right.
note: Most Muslim philosophers and theologians usually followed this method; but, as mentioned earlier, the Qur'an does not approve of it.

ii) The exegete explains the verse with the help of other relevant verses, meditating on them together - and meditation has been forcefully urged upon by the Qur'an itself - and identifies the individual person or thing by its particulars and attributes mentioned in the verse.
No doubt this is the only correct method of exegesis. I.e. using the Quran to explain the Quran
Allah has said: ...and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything (16:89). Is it possible for such a book not to explain its own self?

Also He has described the Qur'an in these words: a guidance for mankind and clear evidence of guidance and discrimination (between wrong) (2:185); and He has also said: and We have sent down to you a manifest light (4:174). The Qur'an is, accordingly, a guidance, an evidence, a discrimination between right and wrong and a manifest light for the people to guide them aright and help them in all their needs. Is it imaginable that it would not guide them aright in its own matter, while it is their most important need?

Again Allah says: And (as for) those who strive hard for Us, We will most certainly guide them on to Our ways (2 9: 69). Which striving is greater than the endeavor to understand His Book? And which way is more straight than the Qur'an?

Allah taught the Qur'an to His Prophet and appointed him as the teacher of the Book: The Faithful Spirit has descended with it upon your heart that you may be of the warners, in plain Arabic language (26:193 - 4); and We have revealed to you the Reminder that you may make clear to men what has been revealed to them, and that haply they may reflect (16:44); . . . an Apostle who recites to them His communications and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom (62:2).

And the Prophet appointed his progeny to carry on this work after him. It is clear from his unanimously accepted tradition - I am leaving behind among you two precious things; as long as you hold fast to them you will never go astray after me: The Book of Allah and my progeny, my family members; and these two shall never separate from each other until they reach me (on) the reservoir.
And Allah has confirmed, in the following two verses, this declaration of the Prophet that his progeny had the real knowledge of the Book: Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, 0 people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying (33:33); Most surely it is an honored Qur'an, in a Book that is hidden; None do touch it save the purified ones (56:77-79).

And the Prophet and the Imams from his progeny always used this second method for explaining the Qur'an, as may be seen in the traditions that have been narrated from...

So RPK, its not about the tiff between Aishah and Ali, Its about the one from the 72 different sects who all think they are right until Allah Himself will show it to all on Judgement day.
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written by hamid, September 11, 2008 00:46:23
If every one read an engineering can becomes an engineer, read a medical book can become a doctor, reads the Bible can be a priest, reads the Quran and becomes an ulamak so on so forth ..we don't need colleges and universities...

Dear The dragonheart, have you ever find any confused engineer or confused doctor? but you can find many confused so called religious leader, why??????? Because Religion invented through believe system. Every religion has they're own believe system, just like you believe that your mother is the most lovelily person as for me my mother is the most lovelily person! So don't ever confuse between "universal truth" and
"believe system ".
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written by FFT, September 11, 2008 04:28:32
While the lot of you keep arguing over green shirts and purple panties, Che Det is galvanizing his troops to burn down the forest!

http://www.chedet.com/

Will you dumb Malaysians be played for fools again and be held at ransom to madmen? Like the mob that went after Frankenstein's monster, so too should the "villagers" gather to drive Che Det out of the country before he reduces all of you to ashes.
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written by kawaafi, September 11, 2008 04:35:24
Hello Hamid,
Please check your facts before posting something stupid.
let me give you some pinters to ur posting Israel, Serbs, Kosovo, Chechnya, Mindanau (Philipine) or how about Southern Thai...?
Am not a supporter of the BN government, but please check your facts right..

regards
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written by kawaafi, September 11, 2008 04:49:02
Salam Gorshan,

Arak is only prohibited during Prophet Muhammad pbuh time and its only happen after more than 10 years of his prophethood. So its perfectly ok for Jesus to hand over the arak for his deciples at that time..smilies/smiley.gif

RPK, i know there are other bigger points you want to make but there are some small facts need to strengthen out here..smilies/smiley.gif
keep up the good work..
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written by hamid, September 11, 2008 06:24:15
by kawaafi, September 11, 2008 04:35:24
Hello Hamid,
Please check your facts before posting something stupid.
let me give you some pinters to ur posting Israel, Serbs, Kosovo, Chechnya, Mindanau (Philipine) or how about Southern Thai...?
Am not a supporter of the BN government, but please check your facts right..


Its you supposed to check before label others stupid! Can you show me in they're constitutions, that is non-muslims has a upper hand in they're rules or the non-muslims has special privilege then the Muslims??? Everyone has equal treatment in the eye of rules, not like Malaysia, Muslim's or so called Bumiputra has a special privilege then the others and its wiritten in the constitutions.

Talk about Israel, Serbs, Kosovo, Chechnya, Mindanu and Thailand..... this is what you will get if you goes against government !!!!!!!!!! Do you think Malaysia non-bumi will get special treatment when they're fight against government???? Get a life you Idiot !
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written by sampalee, September 11, 2008 06:40:18
In duality,good have no meaning if all people behave and think like umno as the bad as we know come about from the dichotomy of the thinking mind.The conflicts energise itself and can only be brought to rest when illusive duality return to source[zero or emptiness as prior to the big bang or the death of the universe]
'I am the alpha and the omega,the beginning and the end'Holy scriptures are filled with pointers leading us to source from which we never left[simply being confused like the prodigal son]
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written by truthbespoken, September 11, 2008 09:40:31
Dear All,

I must say religionists are not realistic people. They are all mostly led by the nose by old scriptures and smarter people who uses religion to control them and waste their whole life arguing, searching, even fighting for the elusive truth which will never ever be confirmed by anybody else in this life. Most of their minds seem to be bottled and corked-up and unable think out and beyond what they were trained to believe from young. How silly the world is!

AND BE WARNED! FFT is absolutely right! (Sept 11, 2008, 4.28.32 above). Check on where the real danger is lurking for all Malaysians and are supporters of democracy and M2Day.

Mahathir has in recent times quite successfully created something out from thin air called a Social Contract for the country. Where is the Contract if there is one at all? Only in his bloody racist mind to justify the wrongs he had committed on the country? How can there be not anything written and documented like our Federal Constitution, if the contract is so important as espoused by this man? Why is he bringing out an imagined contract and making it look as though it is now more important than the Constitution?

Is anyone familiar with this so-called contract or even heard of it in the 50s, 60s or even 70s? No? Hence I strongly believe that it is only created and brought out now by Mahathir to cover his dirty tracks over the years. In the process, this trouble maker that he is now, is backtracking the nation's progress as a nation of Malaysians for Malaysia!

Mahathir is and always will be a self-centered and selfish person too proud and too good for other people because he thinks he is never wrong!

He is actually nothing more than a schemer at heart and only fools will continue to believe and led by him to the proverbial river and be drowned. He is an old time racist pied-piper and certainly not good at all for the future of a united Malaysian society.
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written by panca, September 11, 2008 10:16:04
written by hamid, September 11, 2008 00:46:23
So don't ever confuse between "universal truth" and
"believe system ".


hmaid, you hit the G-spot smilies/grin.gif
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written by DontPlayGod, September 11, 2008 11:40:09
Generally speaking, all religions emphasis on ritals. The belief is that following the rituals will be sufficient to ensure their place in heaven. Islam, in its present form, stresses much on rituals, and the followers have been led to believe that following rituals is all that is necessary to ensure that they enter syurga.

A glaring case in point are the Somali pirates in the Gulf of Aden, where MISC ships and other ships from Islamic countries have proved to be popular targets by these pirates. These pirates can have access to halal foods on these ships, hence taking halal food is all that is necessary to ensure their place in syurga(with virgins thrown in to boot), never mind if they mindlessly torture and kill at the slightest sign of disobedience, etc. Is it halal to torture and kill mindlessly, but a grave sin for eating non-halal food?
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written by kawaafi, September 11, 2008 11:55:27
Hello Hamid,

I did not say you are stupid, only your posting is not correct.
Talking against the government, kids comeback from soccer field is fighting against government?, babies and little children also fighting against the government?. Now are you saying that its ok to shoot Muslim in the masjid and slaugthered unarms street protesters by the hundreds as long as their constitutions say they all are equal...?
How about slaughtered the whole township (Sebrenica)..? is its still ok as long as their contitutions did not say the Muslims is lower citizen.
All these act was done by government army against the citizen of their own country.

Please ur comment right.."You can't find any non-muslims country ill-treat muslims just because they are muslims but you can find many muslims country ill-treat non-muslims just because they non-muslim."

You are talking about "treatment" not constitution..*^%^*%%*
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written by hakuna, September 11, 2008 14:20:41
Pete - please continue sharing your knowledge, even how trivial it may seem. Let us be the judge of it, whether to accept it or not.

I know your recent issue of the TUDUNG ruffled some feathers but that's life. What surprises me is that how come a religion that was propagated more than 1400 years ago is now considered taboo to talk about or to be analysed. It has survived the test of time and yet the folks back here consider everything pertaining it to be a NO GO area. I can bet my last dollar that the people who accepted Islam then had more brains to seek the logic in it than the present scenario here. If it was not the case, then it definitely would not have lasted until now. If ALLAH/GOD wanted everyone to follow without questioning HE would not have given us brains, it would have been easy to just have us as ROBOTS with microchip installed. ALLAH/GOD will have less headache then.
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written by fairnessforall, September 11, 2008 16:33:12
No matter what religion one is, the most important thing is to have a good heart and not to do bad or hurt anyone intentionally. Im sure while all religions have their rules and teachings, they are all good. its people who misuse the teachings for their own benefit.

While on the topic of the tudung, I still remember one episode of Edisi Siasat which covered the problems of immoral activities by muslim youth. They even showed a video taken of a malay woman wearing a tudung, sitting on a big stone in a waterfall in a public park and giving a malay guy a blow job. Of course the blurred out that area but it was obvious from the way the girls head was moving and with the guy standing there, what was happening. So one would ask according to islam, is doing that ok and accepted as long as she is wearing a tudung. Of course not as we all know that sex with someone other than your spouse is haram for muslims. But I would think that wearing the tudung and doing something like that is even more insulting to islam. Just the same as the 1000s of muslims who gamble and yet they accuse the non malays of insulting islam. Aren't these muslims themselve insulting islam. I can understand RPKs point of view and agree with him. Before one accuses others of insulting them or their religion, they should first set a good example and not insult their own religion. Why throw stones if you live in a glass house. Don't insult your own religion by doing things which are forbidden and claim to be a good muslim as then you are insulting islam. This is similar to the UMNO goons who accuse RPK of insulting islam, when they are the onces insulting islam by doing everything that is forbidden by islam such as indulging in corruption and bribery, cheating, stealing the rakyats money, consuming liquer which we all know many ministers do and then sexually abusing the waitress, obtaining the services of prostitutes and the list goes on.

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written by est, September 11, 2008 16:44:22
Now on chedet.com, TDM has made comments about Tunku. Read in between the lines and it quite clearly confirms what is reported here by RPK.

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written by Proarte, September 11, 2008 20:11:45


Has there been an improvement in any index of morality in the Islamic community in Malaysia since the widespread use of the Tudung?

Has sexuality promiscuity decreased? Has teenage pregnancy decreased? Is Muslim society more moral since the introduction of the Tudung?

If the Tudung is considered vital to being a Muslim, one would have thought the early Muslim immigrants who brought Islam to Malaysia would have insisted and enforced its usage. But this has not been the practice in Malaysia for the last 500 years. So why is it suddenly vital for Muslim morality?

It is a new phenomenon which was influenced by 'Islamic revivalism' as a consequence of political ructions in the Middle East. The purpose was political and driven by Muslim Clerics who saw Islam as a force to be exploited for political control. If you claim to speak on behalf of God, who could challenge you? They were the 'authorities' and individual interpretation of the Koran was not encouraged. Imposing the 'Tudung' was part of this strategy of control.

Because Muslims in Malaysia do not read the Koran , the interpretation is left to local 'Ulamaks' and 'Tok Gurus' who themselves have no real confidence in Islamic matters and take the cue from 'political Islam' in the Middle East. Local politicians have done the same as they see it as an easy means to control a people such as the Malays who have a very simplistic and ritualistic attitude towards Islam. Outward form such as dress code, prayer rituals, fasting rituals are ostentatiously paraded and emphasised in order to proclaim their peity. Little do these people realise that religious rituals are only a means to an end and not an end in itself.

This is the problem of Muslim society in Malaysia - they confuse ritual with morality. The ultimate aim of religion is to make us more moral and to submit to God. Wearing a Tudung will not achieve that.

In any case, the Koran does not mention Tudung. Muslims confuse Arabic tradition which is pre-Islamic with 'Islamic' dress code.Dress codes change with time. Let us hope, like the mini skirt and bell bottom jeans in the 60s and 70s, the 'Tudung' fashion will die a natural death like most fashions. It is diabolical to attribute morality to a superficial act such as covering hair ,even more so when it has no religious basis.

Recent scholarship on the language of the Koran has revealed that many words have been misinterpreted througout the ages. The Arabic of Muhammed was not the same as the Arabic of today.In fact there is an early version of the Koran dated 715 found in Yemen which intriguingly has differences in words to a later version of the Koran which became extant after. With regard to the passage which has been interpreted as wearing a veil, the actual meaning is wear your belt(chastity). Similarly, the idea that there will be 'virgins' in heaven again has been mistranslated- the true meaning is grapes not virgins! Sorry Guys!
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written by gorshan, September 12, 2008 00:03:03
written by kawaafi, September 11, 2008 04:49:02
Salam Gorshan,

Arak is only prohibited during Prophet Muhammad pbuh time and its only happen after more than 10 years of his prophethood. So its perfectly ok for Jesus to hand over the arak for his deciples at that time..smilies/smiley.gif



whooa there, now i m more confused. first God says no problem to liquor and all the prophets from Adam right down to Jesus drinks and makes merry but then during the times of Prophet Muhammad liquor consumption was banned. so in other word you are telling me that God is just like the ministers of BN subjected to flip-flop policies ?

saya cuma mahu tahu saja bukan nak api api kan sesiapa, maaf. smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/angry.gif
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written by Oyster, September 12, 2008 00:18:44
MalaysiaBaru wrote:
according to the Quran, Allah created Adam and Eve. We are all supposed to be their decendants. Adam and Eve were put in a place near the present day Euphrates River, in Iraq. From this couple, human civilisation begins and spread across the vast expanse of land that God had created.

My question is this, Who did Adam and Eve's children marry?
Logically the answer seems to be , they married each other! EEEEWW!
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written by gorshan, September 12, 2008 00:35:26
dear Oyster, i have been grappling with this issue since i was 10 years old.another issue i could not answer was the issue of Abel and Cain, sons of Adam and Eve. one sons killed the other and was punished by God to leave the Garden of Eden. killer sons exclaimed that others outside Garden of Eden may killed him and God says punishment of 77 times or something like that. who was these others that killer son was referring to? smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/angry.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/angry.gif
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written by kawaafi, September 12, 2008 11:46:55
Gorshan,

I do not think you really want to know. But only want to make fun of the answers given.



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written by Panca Indera, September 12, 2008 15:55:17
Dear Oyster,
>>> My question is this, Who did Adam and Eve's children marry?
Logically the answer seems to be , they married each other! EEEEWW!


Did you know that Adam and Eve lived to about 900 years and let say their child bearing years were 800 years?

If they have one child every two years and a set of twins the following two years, then would have a total of 600 children, right?

Now 600 children over a period 800 years is a high number by any standard. 300 men and women will not know each other intimately nor will have the same bonding as siblings of a small family(3-4). Scientific studies reveled sexual attraction may flourish when there is no bonding between siblings. Anyway read the article below to know more about sibling marraiges

Sibling Marriage and Human Isolates
There are several reliable examples of human communities where incest and/or close inbreeding have occurred on a regular and systematic basis. These examples include not only the well known cases of royal family incest but also incestuous practices among commoners. This social class distinction is important to note because human sociobiologists have dismissed the many instances of royal incest as exceptional and of no consequence to the debate…. ***** to read more. http://family.jrank.org/pages/...ates.html.
Look at the facts that we now know:
Refer http://www.dailymail.co.uk/fem...t-20s.html ; where siblings of one common parent fell in love and got married and have children.

I hope you understand more now, and not pass jdgement on something you have no knowledge of.
To Orshan:
[5.27] And relate to them the story of the two sons of Adam with truth when they both offered an offering, but it was accepted from one of them and was not accepted from the other. He said: I I will most certainly slay you. (The other) said: Allah only accepts from those who guard (against evil).

Do you think Adam and Eve had only two sons all their lives?

The two sons mentioned in Bible and Quran was to draw attention to the good and evil ways. There was no need to mention Adam’s other children in the Holy books.
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written by gorshan, September 12, 2008 19:28:42
dear kawaafi and panca indera,there is no intention of making fun as religion is a sensitive matters. i have doubts that need clarifications,thats all.

don't be too sensitive lah,okay. i m no Ali Sina,just someone in doubt. smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/angry.gif
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written by Oyster, September 12, 2008 20:15:59
Dear panca inder,
No i did not know that Adam and eve lived to "about 900 years' and that they had 600 children but if neither the Holy Bible Or the Holy Koran mention this then please can you tell me where i can read these so called "Facts".I do not wish to insult Christiancs or Muslims or any other religion but i want to be able to ask question and learn the truth. Your 'opinion' ( for it is merely this if it is not supported by reliable reference) does not , in my mind qualify as FACT. Also can you please tell me if either of the two books recommends,extolls the 'virtues' of incest.TQ
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written by Oyster, September 12, 2008 20:42:48
Panca Indera( apologies for the misspelling of your name)
One more question... Do You mean to say that The Daily Mail or some.com website is more reliable than the the Holy Books?!!! Now who is insulting who?
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written by Oyster, September 12, 2008 21:25:30
Panca Indera,
According to YOU, "300 men and women will not know each other intimately nor will have the same bonding as siblings of a small family(3-4)."

This may be true, but even if they would not know each other, they would surely know who their parents were, as there was only one Adam and one Eve. OR Is it possible that these children grew up without ever laying eyes on their mother and father?
I can accept the arguement that GOD's existance does not rely on logic or scientific fact-merely on faith and belief. However as far as your argument is concerned I am still "as puzzled as the Oyster."
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written by Vik, September 12, 2008 22:38:38
Panca Indera,

Just a FACT. If at all, the 600 children of Adam and Eve got together and did jiggy, the children would have a high chance of being retarded. And this is quote from on of the two articles you cited. It refers to the siblings who fell in love:

They accept that, even if they were to remain lovers, they can never have children together because of the genetic risks to the child of inbreeding.


Would you want your children to be retarded? Would you like to be retarded? Would you mind if your brother and sister were caught in bed together? I mean, Adam and Eve didn't right?

Erm.... Even marriage among cousins has a high chance of genetic risks in the babies.

And mate, 800 years? It is mentioned so, but hello! C'mon. Sometimes the books are just fables.. Don't live by it. Live by the teaching of the book, not by its literature.

How dumb people can be never fails to astound me. This takes the lead though!
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written by Panca Indera, September 13, 2008 00:52:58
Dear Oyster and Vik
>>>No i did not know that Adam and eve lived to "about 900 years' and that they had 600 children but if neither the Holy Bible Or the Holy Koran mention this then please can you tell me where i can read these so called "Facts"

Refer below
Patriarch Age Bible Reference
1 Adam 930 Genesis 5:4
2 Seth 912 Genesis 5:8
3 Enosh 905 Genesis 5:11
4 Cainan 910 Genesis 5:14
5 Mahalalel 895 Genesis 5:17
6 Jared962 Genesis 5:20
7 Enoch 365 (translated) Genesis 5:23
8 Methuselah 969 Genesis 5:27
9 Lamech 777 Genesis 5:31
10 Noah 950 Genesis 9:29

I shall not delve into the rest of the topics regarding the marriages of Adam’schildren, suffice to say I have proven my point on the ages.
Please do not comdemn or make remarks when you have no knowledge of it.
An all the knowledge of science that we know is miniscule compare to Allah’s knowledge. refer

[31.27] And were every tree that is in the earth (made into) pens and all the seas (to supply it with ink), with seven more seas to increase it, the words (knowledge) of Allah would not come to an end; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.
Vik
>>How dumb people can be never fails to astound me. This takes the lead though!
Hmmm Yes I agree !!!! smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif
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written by Vik, September 13, 2008 02:39:37
And again.. Panca Indera said
I shall not delve into the rest of the topics regarding the marriages of Adam’schildren, suffice to say I have proven my point on the ages.


Proven WHAT? Did you build a time machine and go back and get photographic proof? You didn't prove anything. You cited books that are theological works of MAN. You cant use that as proof.

Man i agree that these things are mentioned in the books.. But the fact that you bring it into Mtoday and try to justify it is simply appalling. And the fact that you seem hellbent on instilling upon us that it is the absolute truth is even lower. Allah, is probably nodding his head at people like you and is probably shocked at how much you missed his basic points.
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written by Vik, September 13, 2008 02:52:42
Here's a guy still thinking that the Earth is FLAT, because thats what it says in the Koran.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wppjYDj9JUc

And then there's a scientist trying to convince him otherwise, based on scientific logic. Its like an arguement between you and me... The guy, at the end of the debate, still thinks that the world is flat, as he just doesnt have the mental capacity to think about things in the logical sense. So, you're not the only one like this.
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written by Panca Indera, September 13, 2008 09:56:42
Dear Vik
>>>Like i said, the books were written by men. The bible was written by St. Augustine, a couple of hundred years after Jesus died (an it was in Latin, a language Jesus and his disciples never used).

The bible is made up the Old and New Testament.
The Old testament is based on the Torah, the Holy book of Judaism, The Torah was written about 3300 years ago after the Teaching of prophet Moses. refer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah. Did you know that?

>>It was written by his disciples, their friends, and then copied by hand by someone else. The same goes to the ANY holy book. Even mine. Its written by men.

Think! who or what else can/will write the teaching down for us to read?
Humans are the only Beings taught by Allah to read and write. No other creature can..
Tell me if there is any.

[2.121] Those to whom We have given the Book read it as it ought to be read. These believe in it; and whoever disbelieves in it, these it is that are the losers
[96.1] Read in the name of your Lord Who created.
•[96.3] Read and your Lord is Most Honorable,

>>You think I am actually going to spend time looking all those ten genesis up?
>> the books are just fables.. Don't live by it. Live by the teaching of the book, not by its literature
??????????

[2.17] Their parable is like the parable of one who kindled a fire when it had illuminated all around him, Allah took away their light, and left them in utter darkness-- they do not see.

>> Would you sleep with your sister?
Would you?

5.102] A people before you indeed asked such questions, and then became disbelievers on account of them.
[10.39] Nay, they reject that of which they have no comprehensive knowledge, and the final sequel of it has not yet come to them; even thus did those before them reject (the truth); see then what was the end of the unjust.
69.49] And most surely We know that some of you are rejectors
[9.125] And as for those in whose hearts is a disease, it adds uncleanness to their uncleanness and they die while they are unbelievers.
[55.41] The guilty shall be recognized by their marks, so they shall be seized by the forelocks and the feet.
[54.48] On the day when they shall be dragged upon their faces into the fire; taste the touch of hell.
[87.13] Then therein he shall neither live nor die.


Remember this

[24.35] Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth; a likeness of His light is as a niche in which is a lamp, the lamp is in a glass, (and) the glass is as it were a brightly shining star, lit from a blessed olive-tree, neither eastern nor western, the oil whereof almost gives light though fire touch it not-- light upon light-- Allah guides to His light whom He pleases, and Allah sets forth parables for men, and Allah is Cognizant of all things.



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written by MalaysiaBaru, September 13, 2008 20:05:22
.... Even marriage among cousins has a high chance of genetic risks in the babies.....And mate, 800 years? It is mentioned so, but hello! C'mon.


Dear Vik,

Will it baffle you if I were to tell you that some trees live to be more than a thousand years old? If you can accept that, then there is no reason why you cannot comprehend that Adam can live up to 930.

First of all, being Allah's personal creation that is made in His image, Adam and Eve will be genetically perfect. Moreover, in the beginning of time, the elements(air, water, fruits, etc) must be totally unpolluted and clean. They are also given authority over the other animals and therefore didn't have to worry about their safety and security. Infact,they don't have to worry about anything, everything was in abundance and they didn't have to work for a living. In that kind of environment, free of diseases, stress and pollutants; of course it is natural that human can have a much longer life than the hectic, polluted, disease-filled environment we live in today.

You mentioned that the children of Adam and Eve must have married each other for procreation, and that their offsprings would have a high chance of being mentally retarded. However, the fear of genetic risks from the offsprings between the son and daughter of Adam and Eve did not arise because as I mentioned the genes were perfect back then. It was only after thousand of years of being subjected to external and internal negative elements (such as unhealthy diet, pollution, contaminants, diseases; stress, anger, fear, hatred, etc..) that our bodies developed bad chemicals and our genes became defective.

Yes, in the beginning of time, marriage between the son and daughter of Adam and Eve was necessary for procreation. But there was no genetic risks back then. However, with so much deficiencies in our genes nowadays, close relatives should not inter-marry because a same defect will be repeated & manifested, as there will be no good gene from a spouse to compensate for a certain deficiency in the gene of the other partner. For instance, if the mother of a child has visual deficiency in her genes but the father has no such deficiency, the stronger trait will prevail and the child will not be inflicted with the particular deficiency. Hence, close mariages can no longer be accepted in the world we live in today.

Anyway, let's put our differences aside and focus our priorities now to free RPK and our beloved nation from the unscrupulous regime of Barisan Najis!

Cheers smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif smilies/cool.gif
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written by Proarte, September 15, 2008 10:43:01
I have no issue with people wearing a Tudung, but I feel it is important for Muslims and non-Muslims to point out that it is not a mark of moral superiority over Muslim women who do not wear the Tudung.Given that more than 50% of women in Malaysia do not wear the Tudung and the fact that entertainment norms in the Malaysian media routinely feature women without the Tudung, it is ridiculous to attribute not wearing a Tudung as sexually provocative.

After all if it is considered sexually arousing, would the Koran allow boys and husbands and other close relatives to see their daughters, wives and aunts without a Tudung in their houses? Malays must have confidence in their religious faith and not try to emulate Wahabi Arabs who have different cultural values and norms. Malays should be proud of their faith, culture and dress which has served them well for the past 500 hundred years and not be slaves to Political Islam which is an invidious curse on this nation.

I have observed that Raja Petra's wife Marina has appeared in public not wearing the Tudung. I clearly remember her covering her hair a few years ago. Are the Tudung brigade now going to cast aspersions on the morality of this courageous lady who has tirelessly fought for Anwar's release during his incarceration and who has been the pillar of support to Raja Petra who has shown himself to be a great Malaysian fighting for a more civilised and just Malaysia?

It is diabolical to attribute morality to a superficial act such as covering hair.
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written by Panca Indera, September 16, 2008 08:17:57
After all if it is considered sexually arousing, would the Koran allow boys and husbands and other close relatives to see their daughters, wives and aunts without a Tudung in their houses?

[24.31] And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known; and turn to Allah all of you, O believers! so that you may be successful.

I have observed that Raja Petra's wife Marina has appeared in public not wearing the Tudung
SO ALSO A LOT of OTHER GRANDMOTHERS!

It is ALSO diabolical, NOT to attribute morality to an act such as covering hair. smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif

Three is enough just like Trinity
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written by Panca Indera, September 16, 2008 09:56:59
Dear Vik
>>Jesus was just preaching a way of life. …More so of a European Buddha if you will.

Jesus preached about obeying God through him as a salvation of man and Buddha was a spiritual Teacher who preached Spiritual Philosophy without the need or a Creator. Refer : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Buddhism
By the way , Jesus PBUH was not EUROPEAN! He was MIDDLE-EASTERN.

>>Again, this was my point: ...the books are just fables..Live by the teaching of the book,.
Refer http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Fables
fable - a deliberately false or improbable account; fabrication, fiction; falsehood, untruth, falsity - a false statement

You contradicted yourself man and yet you asked others to follow the teaching of the Fables..
>>Its like an argument between you and me...
Really? I thought it was a banter.
>>Bugger off?
I would,nt want to be your down syndrome ward with your attitude , would I?

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written by richardwong, September 18, 2008 20:34:14
Presuming that the Quran translation of Chapter 2 verse 256 is as follows: [ There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the right path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieve in Taghut (anything worshipped other than the real god) and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break . . ]

Many people interpret the verse as stating that everyone is free to choose any religion and that we should not force anyone to adopt just one religion.

Or we can interpret the verse as follows: God has decreed a structured “Path of Peaceful Life” or “Islam as in “surrender or submission to God’s universal laws which was decreed upon creation of the universe and all living things”; which inherently implies Living peacefully with man’s environment and not transgressing the permitted limits of misconduct, whilst adhering to moral tenets and doing good, avoiding evil and untruths.

With the revelation of the Quran (readings) the right path is now clearly defined and the Quran contains Explanations and Examples to convince its readers of the truth, and therefore through reasoning there is no excuse for anybody to reject the “Pathways of peaceful life” decreed for mankind.

No one needs to be forced to accept “God’s decreed way of life” (ie compulsion) but he or she will be convinced of the “truth” once he or she reads the Quran.”

But how many people read the Quran with understanding, so that he or she could be blessed with its wisdom? The religious leaders might be able to read the Quran in Arabic and be able to help translate the Quran in other languages, but the interpretation of verses is a different ball of game altogether.

Yes, translation is important. If the verse 185 from Chapter 2 is read as “The month of Ramadan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the distinction…”, then the non-Arabic reader can be mis-led.

What if there is “no one holy month – Ramadan” (ie other months, not holy?), what if the verse states as: “Months of shedding of thoughs which is transmitted in it – the Quran – a guide for mankind and the explanation of guidance and criterion for right conduct. . . “

What if Chapter 2, verse 255 read as follows: “There is no compulsion in the orderly way of life. Certainty is now clear between the guidance from the wrong ones. . . “

Notice that the word “religion” is not part of the verse. What if the “Pathways of peaceful life” is the antithesis of “religion of rituals, acts of bowing and other institutionalized prayer and worship” (so apparent in Idol worship, and adhering to the commands of “priests and religious authorities, who earn their keep from “religion”)?

The Quran warns of idolizing anyone (priests and prophets, included. Prophets serve to convey the message, and the value in God’s service ends there, nothing more.)

Perhaps the above helps to clarify that mere experts in the Arabic Quran are not necessarily the right interpreters of the “readings”. But the non-Arabic reader needs to understand the message of the Quran (perhaps, starting with various translation), by reading the Quran in totality to understand the true meanings.
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written by richardwong, September 18, 2008 20:34:49
Irrespective of different translation versions, isn’t the meaning from the Quran the following, viv-a-vis:

a) Q66:11 . . . the wife of Pharoah won God’s favour and mercy through her Islam (not, presumably via any adherence to the religious rituals and institutionalized prayers of the Jews of that period . . . not necessary the Islam of Moses, the Islamic Prophet of the time)

b) Q19: 25-26 . . . Mary (mother of Jesus) whilst “fasting”, was offered dates and the suggestion to eat and drink, but to adhere to her vowed “syiyam” (or “practice of retrain” or “fast”) of not conversing with anyone that day. Note that “syiyam” in this instance has nothing to do with not eating or drinking.

And if Araham was taught the pilgrimage ritual around the Khabah, why in the Readings (ie Quran) there is no commentary of other prophets, including Issac (son of Abraham), Jacob (son of Issac) and Joseph (son of Jacob) following the practice. Did Araham neglect to tell his siblings of the “Islamic” practice?

But in the Quran, the Creed of Abraham is recommended for all and sundry. Isn’t his creed freed of the idolers’ practice of rituals and institutionalized prayers?

In the Quran, the true believers do not follow the manmade laws and teachings of the religious authorities of the day (whether they be priests or what not). Vide Q12:40 . . .the command is for none but God; God commands that man serve none but God alone.

Therefore, who claims that he or she can set religious law and obligations for mankind? Prophets serve to convey God’s message, and their value in God’s service ends there, nothing more. Vide Q33:21 . . .excellent exampler, who constantly praises God, Q3:79 . . .who taught the book, having studied it, Q50:45 . . .remind or warn by means of the Quran

Christians abide by the Bible, Those who profess to be Muslims presumably abide by the Quran. How many Muslims know their Quran? What does the Quran say about “riba”. Do you follow one part of the Quran and ignore another?
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written by Panca Indera, September 19, 2008 10:53:10
Dear Richardwong,
Refer your comment below.
>>) Q19: 25-26 . . . Mary (mother of Jesus) whilst “fasting”, was offered dates and the suggestion to eat and drink, but to adhere to her vowed “syiyam” (or “practice of retrain” or “fast”) of not conversing with anyone that day. Note that “syiyam” in this instance has nothing to do with not eating or drinking.

Mary had just given birth to baby Jesus PBUH by herself, do your seriously think that she should not eat or drink for a whole month when she needed to breastfeed her baby?

If you read further(which your didn’t) you would discover that her vow not to speak to any man was, following the command for GOD. i.e.
19.26": So eat and drink and refresh the eye. Then if you see any mortal, say: Surely I have vowed a fast to the Beneficent God, so I shall not speak to any man today.

The rational is simple. Why complicate the issue and try to explain to the people something they don’t comprehend?
The BEST way is to let the baby Jesus PBUH speaks for himself as what the Bible and Quran said.

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written by Panca Indera, September 19, 2008 12:12:29
206. There are people who worship God to gain His Favors, this is the worship of traders; while there are some who worship Him to keep themselves free from His Wrath, this is the worship of slaves; a few who obey Him out' of their sense of gratitude and obligations, this is the worship of free and noble men.
http://www.al-islam.org/masoom...ing5.html smilies/cool.gif
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