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Nothing but a Red Herring PDF Print E-mail
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Sunday, 31 August 2008 13:56

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What I am doing -- amar maaruf, nahi munkar; which means to uphold truth and oppose evil -- is mandatory in Islam. What I am doing is what Islam stipulates. I am more Islamic than that Arab pretending to be a descendant of the Prophet.

NO HOLDS BARRED

Raja Petra Kamarudin

Kolonel Norhayati is not my ADC, explained Deputy Prime Minister Najib Tun Razak’s wife. She just handles my appointments. Well, I suppose this is akin to someone saying she is not my typist. She just types my letters. And now Syed Hamid Albar says that they are not censoring Malaysia Today. They are just blocking access to Malaysia Today.

Would you expect any less from people who argue that Umno is not a racist party? We just think that Malays are the Lords of this land and the non-Malays are all immigrants who can’t be allowed the same rights and privileges as the Lords of this land. But this is not racism. This is the Merdeka ‘social contract’ being honoured.

Yes, Happy Merdeka, Malaysians. And may the Merdeka ‘social contract’ be given the ‘honour’ it deserves and be placed as supreme.

Syed Hamid says they have sent Malaysia Today many warning letters but all these letters have been ignored. That is why Malaysia Today was not censored but the government only blocked access to it. However, Syed Hamid could not offer any details of how many letters were sent, when they were sent, and what were the contents of these letters. And this is because no such letters exist. The government, at no time at all, has ever sent Malaysia Today any warning letters.

Syed Hamid also did not offer any examples to support the allegation that Malaysia Today has insulted either Islam or Prophet Muhammad. Malaysia Today has insulted Prophet Muhammad and Islam, he said. And that is good enough. It is not necessary to explain in what way Islam and Prophet Muhammad were insulted or to support the allegation with examples or specific incidences.

Anwar Ibrahim has been chided for refusing to swear on the Quran that he is innocent of the allegation of sodomy. The government-owned media went to town in the run-up to the Permatang Pauh by-election to run Anwar down on his refusal to swear on the Quran.

Do I take it that if I too swear on the Quran that I have never insulted Islam or Prophet Muhammad then the matter is resolved? Would the government then unblock Malaysia Today since I have proven my innocence by swearing on the Quran? A hint from Syed Hamid, Pusat Islam or the Religious Department would be most welcome.

I will give the Malaysian government one week to come back with a response. I, Raja Petra Bin Raja Kamarudin, am now offering to swear on the Quran that I have never insulted Islam and/or Prophet Muhammad. I, Raja Petra Bin Raja Kamarudin, take up the challenge they have thrown to Anwar Ibrahim and which they chide Anwar Ibrahim for because he has refused to take up the challenge. Come back to me within one week and indicate that you are prepared to witness my oath on the Quran or forever hold your peace and never mention this matter again.

Want to make a small wager, however un-Islamic that may be? I bet they will not be able to offer any examples or evidence of incidences where I have insulted Islam and/or Prophet Muhammad and they will never accept my challenge that I swear on the Quran. The one-week will come and go and nothing will happen. They will ignore my challenge and will not respond. And this is because there are no incidences where I have ever insulted Islam or Prophet Muhammad.

This is nothing but a Red Herring. They are using an excuse that works well with most Muslims. If Muslims think you are insulting Islam or Prophet Muhammad they will go berserk. So what better excuse to offer than you are insulting Islam and Prophet Muhammad. And since it is the government that is saying so, then this must be true, because would the government ever lie to the people?

Yes, they demand that Anwar Ibrahim swear on the Quran that he has never sodomised Saiful. And when Anwar refuses to do so they go to town with the issue and say that this proves Anwar’s guilt. Well, I too challenge them to demand that I swear on the Quran that I have never insulted Islam or Prophet Muhammad. And if they refuse to demand that I do so, then I too will go to town with the issue and declare them guilty of lying just like how they have declared Anwar guilty.

I remember back in April 2001 when the government detained ten of us under the Internal Security Act. Except for Tian Chua and Gobalakrishnan, the rest of us were put through a three-day Islamic rehabilitation program. For three days an ustaz was asked to sit with us from morning till evening to discuss Islam so that we could be ‘guided’ and ‘led back to the right path’ from which we have strayed.

It was a three-day rehabilitation program. But the ustaz did not give me my three days. On the second day he did not turn up. The excuse they gave me was that the ustaz ‘had something to do’. After we were released from detention, I checked with the others and they all confirmed that they had to go through the full three days, even Ustaz Badrulamin, an ex-UIA lecturer, and Saari Sungib, the ex-President of JIM, an Islamic movement.

Why did they ‘abandon’ me after the first day? Why were all the others subjected to the full three days except for me? Did they discover me beyond rehabilitation and thought that it was therefore futile to continue to try to rehabilitate me? Or did they give up on me, not because I was a lost cause, but because I out-debated the ustaz and they felt, instead of the ustaz rehabilitating me, I might end up rehabilitating him?

If they are still not satisfied and still feel I need to be rehabilitated, then I will throw an open challenge to any ustaz in Malaysia to sit down with me and prove that I am wrong or that I am a deviant. Come on, surely there is at least one ustaz, Tok Guru, Mufti, etc., who dares take me on. Come debate with me. Show me I am wrong. Then I will stop writing about Islam for the rest of my life. Surely this offer is too good to refuse.

Allow me to reveal some points of the ten-hour or so non-stop debate that I had with the ustaz during my Internal Security Act detention back in 2001. Ten hours is a long debate so I will certainly not be able to reproduce the entire thing. But some of these points will probably demonstrate why the ustaz ‘abandoned’ me after the first day and never came back the following day.

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Pak Engku, today there will be no interrogation. For the next three days this ustaz will sit with you and talk about Islam.

He is supposed to rehabilitate me is it?

No, not rehabilitate. Just to talk to you about Islam so that we can get a better understanding of your thoughts on Islam.

The Special Branch officer walks out of the room and leaves me alone with the ustaz.

Before the ustaz can open his mouth I kick off the debate with my ‘opening speech’.


Ustaz, I am not as well versed in Islam as you are. I went to an English school and do not speak Arabic. I have also not memorised the Quran like you have. So my knowledge on Islam is very shallow. Forgive me, therefore, if what I say might not be right because I am speaking as a jahil (ignorant person) and not as a learned person.

The ustaz just nods without saying a word and I continue.

Tell me, ustaz, is amar maaruf, nahi munkar compulsory (wajib) or optional (sunat)?

He opens his mouth but before anything can come out of it I quickly continue.

Let me answer that myself. It is wajlb right? Amar maaruf, nahi munkar is as wajib as praying, fasting, performing the Haj and so on. It is an obligation. It is compulsory for all Muslims to perform amar maaruf, nahi munkar. It is not something you can choose whether to do or not. It is something you must do. It is mandatory in Islam.

The ustaz nods but says nothing.

So tell me, ustaz. Tell me I am wrong in performing amar maaruf, nahi munkar. Tell me it is not wajib, just like praying, fasting and so on. Tell me I should not perform amar maaruf, nahi munkar. Then I shall stop performing amar maaruf, nahi munkar.

The ustaz no longer even nods.

I challenge you, ustaz. (I point to the ceiling). Before Allah and with Allah as our Witness, tell me I have erred in performing amar maaruf, nahi munkar. Tell me amar maaruf, nahi munkar is not an obligation and compulsory in Islam. Tell me it is not wajib. Then let us all stop performing amar maaruf, nahi munkar. And let us also stop praying and fasting plus all those other rituals that are equally wajib and as much an obligation just like amar maaruf, nahi munkar.

The ustaz shuffles uncomfortably in his seat but before he can respond I charge in again.


I am doing only what is wajib in Islam. If you can before Allah and with Allah as our Witness tell me that amar maaruf, nahi munkar is wrong and that I should not be performing it, then let us now, before Allah and with Allah as our Witness, also declare all those others which are equally wajib as wrong.

I do not expect any response from the ustaz and do not wait for one.

I am prepared to stop performing amar maaruf, nahi munkar if you, ustaz, before Allah and with Allah as our Witness, declare it wrong. If you dare do that, then I will also stop performing all those others such as praying and fasting, which, therefore, should be declared equally wrong since they share the same wajib status as amar maaruf, nahi munkar.

This time I want him to respond so I stop to force a response out of him.

Yes, you are right, of course it is wajib.

That is all I wanted him to say.

Then what am I doing here, ustaz? Why am I under Internal Security Act detention? If I am only performing what Islam makes mandatory, what crime have I committed? Amar maaruf, nahi munkar is compulsory. All Muslims are obligated to perform it. I am being detained for doing what Islam forces us to do. I am being detained for obeying Allah. If obeying Allah is a crime then should I also be performing my prayers and fast? Are these also crimes in the eyes of the Malaysian government? What difference is praying and fasting compared to amar maaruf, nahi munkar? All are mandatory in Islam. If one is wrong then all should be wrong. If amar maaruf, nahi munkar is a crime then praying and fasting are also crimes. If I must stop performing amar maruf, nahi munkar then I must also stop praying, fasting, and all those others. Tell me, ustaz. Tell me that amar maaruf, nahi munkar is wrong. Tell me what Islam makes mandatory is a crime. Tell me the government is right in detaining me for performing amar maaruf, nahi munkar. Then, today, now, I will stop performing amar maaruf, nahi munkar, plus all those others that Islam makes mandatory as well. And, from today, now, you and I shall stop performing all those other obligations such as praying and fasting which, just like amar maaruf, nahi munkar, should also be classified as wrong.

*************************************************


This debate continues till the end of the day. But it is not really a debate as much as it is a monologue. I barrage the ustaz with him nodding and hardly opening his mouth. The following day he does not turn up, either because he has given up on me and realises he can’t guide me back to the right path, or because the Special Branch is worried that I would instead ‘lead him astray’.

Syeds are supposed to be descendants of the Prophet. I take it that Syed Hamid is, therefore, also a descendant of the Prophet. But he does not exhibit the proper Islamic qualities.

Syed Hamid is a lawyer who also built up a career as a merchant banker. I take it, therefore, that his English is better than the average Malay. Why can’t he then see that I am insulting Muslims? And this does not translate to insulting Islam or the Prophet.

If I were to call someone a pig, does that mean I am insulting that person or am I insulting pigs? Going by Syed Hamid’s logic, by calling someone a pig, I am insulting pigs.

No, Syed Hamid is not stupid. He does not even have a poor command of English. This is all a Red Herring. They want to block, not censor, Malaysia Today. So they are using the insulting Islam issue as the excuse. That is all.

In fact, what I am doing -- amar maaruf, nahi munkar; which means to uphold truth and oppose evil -- is mandatory in Islam. What I am doing is what Islam stipulates. I am more Islamic than that Arab pretending to be a descendant of the Prophet. And it is they, not me, who are insulting Islam. They use Islam as the camouflage to perpetuate racism and persecution. They perpetuate injustice. And they say this is what Islam is all about.

Comments (221)Add Comment
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written by Fuminari, August 31, 2008 14:12:21
frankly,many people did not quite agree with anwar's declaration of intent to take over the gorverment the way stipulated for 16-9-2008!now many would hav changed their mind !we hav realised,the rakyat hav realised n all the righteous hav realised........
"the best way of triumph to the devil is those good men sitting there but doing nothing"!!!
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written by captmarco ramius, August 31, 2008 14:14:49
Dear YM RPK,

A BRILLIANT PIECE INDEED.THANK YOU.
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written by Horizonline, August 31, 2008 14:24:21
they will not accept your challenges. that is it for sure. those scumbags will not stand for too long now.

merdeka!
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written by Jit Dharma, August 31, 2008 14:29:21
Contract or Con-tract?
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written by fromamovingtrain, August 31, 2008 14:38:09
umno = islam? with people like syed hamid, kj, rafidah aziz, mahathir, nazri aziz, najib ( the milk- bather) and the like, it's a no- brainer.

RPK, you didn't even have to explain and folks, don't waste time looking for justifications.

umno OUT!
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written by HARIMAU BIN ABDULLAH, August 31, 2008 14:39:56
All humans are descendents of monkeys, except the Arabs, who are descendents of pigs. Shit-hamit is a low-class breed of pig, with retarded brain.
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written by Super admin, August 31, 2008 14:42:23
HARIMAU BIN ABDULLAH @ Yeo Kee Liang, it is postings like these that get Malaysia Today in trouble. You are now banned.
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written by sjs, August 31, 2008 14:43:17
Raja Petra Kamarudin, firstly, this "looks like me. sounds like me and it's not me" syndrome runs through the entire leadership of BN component parties!

Secondly, I truly appreciate your consistent stand on the innocence of Anwar and fully supporting the cause of Anwar and his colleagues! I am also pleased that you have remained so faithful to one cause, ie, the people's cause for justice and freedom!

Finally, I would appreciate it very much, if you can take a stronger stand on Mahathir as you have taken on Najib, on framing false sodomy charges against Anwar! The reason, it was Mahathir who initiated the earlier sodomy accusations and influenced the entire cabinet members then, that the false charges were true! I am surrpised that stronger stand is not taken by our blogging fraternities, even though Anwar has forgiven him! RPK, Please keep the ball rolling on this issue!
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written by Kuku Burung, August 31, 2008 14:49:05
Wonder what happens to the poor ustaz. Kena a piece from RPK is no joke. May be he is now enlightened - he might decide to do what he preaches.
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written by Lim Lim, August 31, 2008 14:53:15
so MT bloggers,calling syed hamid a pig is actually insulting pigs!!
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written by Windchime, August 31, 2008 14:57:34
"Or did they give up on me, not because I was a lost cause, but because I out-debated the ustaz and they felt, instead of the ustaz rehabilitating me, I might end up rehabilitating him?"

YM RPK,

This is q classic quote! I just cannot help butu laughed my head off, put it back on and laugh again! Hahahaha! I can just imagine the rehab-ustaz peeing in his pants talking to you!

Good on you, RPK!
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written by Celestial, August 31, 2008 14:59:19
Bravo Pete

Again, logical reasoning and argument wins the day.

Congratulations on your ban on Harimau Bin Abdullah. These type of people do not realise that your blogs are read internationally and his behaviour is a total disgrace. I am now more inclined to believe he is a plant by the BN polical machinery to cause problems.

If any one want to challenge my right to judge these type of people is more than welcomed. Freedom of speech applies to everyone. I judge based on my own value system and as far as I am concerned, there is absolutely no excuse to behave in that manner so my congratulations again. This is my opinion and I am entitled to it. If anyone wishes to continue, I can't stop them, but I will continue to treat him/her with the same contempt and disgust as I have for Harimau and Pete can have the pleasure of exercising the "ban".

It is my right to exercise "amar maaruf, nahi munkar" even though I am not a muslim but I think it is a beautiful teaching to observe and practise.
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written by teo siew chin, August 31, 2008 15:01:58
"AMAR MAARUF, NAHI MUNKAR! UPHOLD TRUTH, OPPOSE EVIL!"
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this has always been the battle-cry of YM RPK from day one.
how can such a call be censored?
how can such a call be banned?
how can such a call be blocked?
so RAKYAT - CAN OR NOT??
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written by doggone, August 31, 2008 15:06:14
I can visualize Syed 'Ustaz' Hamid gathering all his Korans for the weekend so he can brush up on the true meaning of 'amar maaruf, nahi munkar'.

He might disagree with you and say that 'amar maaruf, nahi munkar' is sunat because Islam Hadhari say so. He's got a living sleeping 'prophet' to prove it.

Pete, just in case you have to take the oath, please remember you are required to swear using the Hadhari verse of...

Wahmauzzz, Wahbilazzz, Wahsudahzzz!
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written by K W Waran, August 31, 2008 15:08:47

Dearest YM RPK,

It is nothing but just a Bloody RED Herring indeed.

In fact, my good Sir, you should not even waste your precious time talking about that FOOL, who, just because of his status as Home Minister thinks that he has a good golden opportunity to be a Hero and thus daringly comment on every issues that crops up under the Malaysian Sun and Moon.

Wait till YB DSAI helms Putrajaya, and then see how this fool runs, looking for a lubang cacing. Has anyone seen that fler(borrowing from Sdra Patrick Teoh of the Niamah!!! Fame) walking, may it be, in the Parliament or elsewhere?

I, (thousands of apologies for I am getting a bit personal here), always thought he has two HUGE scrotums that makes him difficult to walk, hence, he walk like that one. HE should know and may be, that's precisely why, he is bravely tokkok here, there and everywhere. Imagine that FLER running.

Dearest Bro Labisman, Super admin et al, please remove this posting if its goes beyond acceptable decency, I won't mind at all.

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written by arazak, August 31, 2008 15:17:47
For UMNO . . .,lying to the rakyaat, stealing the rakyaats' money, racism, oppression and repressions of ordinary rakyaats are "Wajib". They cannot survive without doing these "Wajib" things!!!

We . . ., yes WE, the rakyaat are sick of what UMNO are doing in the past, now and, in the future ("dulu, kini dan, selamanya").
smilies/angry.gif
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written by pkrgulf, August 31, 2008 15:19:34
Great Job Super admin..let us promote healthy discussion and intelligent debate rather than name-calling and rampant cursing. It will go a long way to elevating the status of MT as a respectable website which is truly consistent with amar maaruf nahi mungkar..

The ban on harimau Abdullah is therefore justified and overdue.

Keep up the good work.

ganutulin
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written by fergie, August 31, 2008 15:28:11
Selamat berpuasa, RPK and family .. also to all Muslim brothers and sisters.
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written by teo siew chin, August 31, 2008 15:37:52
oh ya, dah lupa!

Selamat berpuasa to YM RPK & family and all our Muslim friends on MT!
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written by nylong, August 31, 2008 15:44:16
As Usual you are....
SHARP & SCINTILLATING
Bravo.....
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written by akhairiz, August 31, 2008 15:44:30
Salam YM RPK & family,

InsyaAllah diharap di bulan Ramadhan yang mulia ini, kita sama2 mengerjakan ibadat puasa. Amar maaruf, nahi munkar is compulsory. All Muslims are obligated to perform it!

Selamat berpuasa!
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written by macaufan, August 31, 2008 15:57:14
Shit Hamid,
u r being checkmate by RPK again !
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written by IbnAbdHalim, August 31, 2008 16:05:19
Salam Pete,

You're wasting your time on him. He has thick skin. To him and the likes, insulting an ustaz means attacking Islam itself. If you're critical of these guys you're branded as anti-Islam and anti-Prophet. Yes, they can't differentiate that. This applies both to UMNO and PAS, or for the matter to the whole Malaysian muslim communities, with an exception though. They'll jump if you say they're jahil but you know they really are. Generally Malays are followers of As-Syafie. That's the norm here, but do the Malays really adhere to the teachings of As-Syafie? Similarly they claimed to be adhering to the teachings of Islam as brought by the Holy Prophet. Are they? You know the answer and that makes you anti-Islam and anti-Prophet. Forget amar ma'ruf and nahi munkar for in Malaysia it's the other way round. You know what I mean?

Btw Pete carry on with your JIHad. We're with you.
Selamat menyambut Ramadhan al-Mubarak.
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written by pokokmangga, August 31, 2008 16:07:36
Super Amin,

Thank God.
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written by pokokmangga, August 31, 2008 16:08:57
Lim Lim,

I concur. Pigs are one of the most inteligent mamals of the animal kingdom.
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written by FFT, August 31, 2008 16:09:12
Good thing the SB didn't subject you "turning over".

You might have "brainwashed" half of Bukit Aman. smilies/grin.gif

Happy Merdeka to all!

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written by YSL, August 31, 2008 16:19:09
Ustaz Raja Petra Kamarudin,

I say this again, you are truly a Muslim that can convince a non-muslim like me to believe that Islam is absolutely for good!!!!!!!!

It is so clear that Islam teaches us Non-muslim that we, together with Islam, must fight evil known as Tuan ISA, Datuk Seditionact, TanSri Officialact, and Devil Datuk C4 AND Devilumno.

I am a 69 years old free thinker! the above was the first time i read and i strongly believed in Islam and i have indeed been made to believe all UMNO Muslims are useless because they never dare to speak the truth about Islam because they themselves are Devil And Evil of Islam!!!!

Ustaz Raja Petra Kamarudin, by pledging the above influential fundementals of Islam, Malaysia is truly a better Islamic Country with "amar maaruf And nahi munkar" teaching!!!!

I love you Malaysia because of Ustaz Raja Petra Kamarudin.

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written by PRman, August 31, 2008 16:23:01
Thumbs up! This irresponsible people is making a mockery of Malaysia.
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written by HHKim, August 31, 2008 16:26:58
Dear RPK,

Well said!!! I am 500% sure THERE IS NO ONE FROM UMNO / BN dare to take up this challenge from you at all!! For this, the whole BN is a joke.

We also admire your steadfast believe in continuous fight for jusitce.

Cheers RPK! May you win in the final outcome!!
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written by HHKim, August 31, 2008 16:30:25
I am damn sad and disappointed to look at the photo of Abdullah in the Merdeka celebration. He looked downtrodden as if there is no life in him!!! Then how can he represent Malaysians in leading the nation!!!!!!!!!!!

Come on, the raayat expect our PM to look tall and behave tall, not half-dead standing there like a corpse!!
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written by Wudan, August 31, 2008 16:31:01
...then I will throw an open challenge to any ustaz in Malaysia to sit down with me and prove that I am wrong or that I am a deviant. Come on, surely there is at least one ustaz, Tok Guru, Mufti, etc., who dares take me on. Come debate with me. Show me I am wrong. Then I will stop writing about Islam for the rest of my life. Surely this offer is too good to refuse
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Dear Agendadaily,

Would you like to organize another debate between RPK and an Ustaz, Tok Guru or Mufti. I can guarantee you that it will hit more than 1.7 million viewer ship. Your October schedule should be a good date.
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written by SamSan, August 31, 2008 16:31:40
I think RPK just like all of us don't really understand Islam Hadhari as enunciated by Bodowi. The government needs to educate the rakyat on the intricacies of UMNO Islam Hadhari and how it applies to all aspects of our life.
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written by KM Wong, August 31, 2008 16:39:50
RPK sez" And now Syed Hamid Albar says that they are not censoring Malaysia Today. They are just blocking access to Malaysia Today."
And I say "Syed Hamid Albar's mother is a virgin".
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written by talk2stop, August 31, 2008 16:39:54
RPK I think you upset too many Muslims. Your articles on Islam is refreshing. I think many Muslims just can't see the wood among the trees.
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written by mikewang, August 31, 2008 16:48:49
Oh no ... shit.
Pete, you were the manchurian candidate.
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written by Alice, August 31, 2008 16:55:40
As a practising Catholic i feel that Raja Petra Kamaruddin is a TRUE MUSLIM and I really wonder why the MUSLIMS do not feel that way??

He has the capacity to convince a non muslim about the true teachings of Islam however he is unable to convince the UMNO people . STRANGE ISN'T IT??? smilies/sad.gif smilies/sad.gif smilies/sad.gif
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written by temanmu, August 31, 2008 17:16:17
Wow!!!

This is a masterpiece ... hope it gets translated accurately into Malay!
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written by kanokporn, August 31, 2008 17:18:52
dear pete what is wrong with you man? i just went for a short nap and came back and then you have his wonderful revelation and article for me. 4 years ago i decided to stop buying the newspapers and also decided that there is nothing that could change the way malaysia is being run but now i dont'know what i would do without mt. thank you and i am with you on turning this country of ours into a beautiful land that has been snatched right under our noses. i just dont turn my computer off anymore and thats the truth. oh god you never fail to amaze me. happy holidays to you and family
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written by ez24get, August 31, 2008 17:20:37
That is the problem that malays are facing in Malaysia. Unwitting, this problem is self created by the malays themselves.

The problem is that malays (I must say not all malays)let UMNO gets away with unfair treatment of the other races economically as well as religiously.

Malays let UMNO get away with the supremacy of Islam over other religions practiced by the non-malays in as much ways possible; you let religious fanatics storm into inter-faith forums; you allow them to place syriah laws above the Federal Constitution; you allow them to demand other races not to question Islam even in cases where corruption and wrong teaching of Islam are perpetuated by them.

Now UMNO comes back to misuse Islam back on to the malays themselves - using religion and prophet Mohammad in coercing malays not to question Islam. They are using religion now on a righteous and a true muslim which is Raja Petra. They are doing this now because previously they are able to get away with it with the non-muslims.

The same goes for the NEP. Malays (again, not all malays) allow them to discriminate the other races and demand the other races not to questions malay rights.

What happens? UMNO comes back to steal what are meant for the ordinary malays for themselves and their cronies under the guise of NEP! They ask you now not to question them because previously they are able to get away from the non-malays.

This is the law of nature - do not do unto others what you don't want them to do unto you!

God has blessed Malaysia with enough resources for everybody. There is no need to discriminate other people in terms of race or religion in order to enjoy the fruits and abundance that nature has provided us.

If you do, nature has a funny way of biting back at us!
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written by cinapek, August 31, 2008 17:23:21
pokokmangga said :

I concur. Pigs are one of the most inteligent mamals of the animal kingdom

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I don't know about that, but they are surely tasty cooked with kicap.
Superadmin, thanks for taking the lead to keep our community focussed on the issues and NOT getting RPK into more trouble.
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written by roylim, August 31, 2008 17:27:30
I really feel sad that we resort to name callings.

Why can't we have more constructive responses ?
Instead of just posting comments which downgrade fellow human beings,
we should try to post comments which touch at the topic in particular,
with facts that either support or oppose the topic.

This way it will promote a healthy debate which i hope the present government or any government in future will read and realise the numerous mistakes they have done.
Please do not post any comments that will not improve our current lives.
When we post any comment we just want the government to read and evaluate the current issue at hand. So name callings and curses won't help. If we continue doing this, aren't we no different from the person we label as animals.
We have to be more matured and indulge more in a healthy environment.
Please remember that students are also reading all this articles and comments, therefore we should show a good example to them the future generation of our nation.

RPK, do continue your articles if you think that whatever you are doing is the truth. You only have GOD and your own conscience to answer to.

PS : I am sorry if i offended anyone by this comment.
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written by oknyua, August 31, 2008 17:34:57
YM RPK, each word you wrote would force them to look inside themselves. I hardly look at their blocking of MT as a religious or Islam issue - it is just plain hypocrisy. Unable to substantiate their actions, they drag in religion, the usual excuse UMNO men employed for sometimes already.

Back in the 70's and 80's, anything PAS did was accused of by UMNO as religious extremism. PAS's "extremism," if they were extremism, did not have any other strings attached, it was purely Islamic. UMNO's use of Islam is always for political end. Talk about people using religion for politics - that is only UMNO. Do we need to quote examples?
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written by budakindia, August 31, 2008 17:39:49
Selamat berpuasa to Pete & family, to all my Muslim friends! smilies/grin.gif Just ignore Syed Hamid & the gang, they gave Islam a bad name! They also gave us Malaysians bad name too. So just ignore them. They are nothing but boneless, spineless politicians that will jump on any opportunity to make a quick buck.
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written by BOB007, August 31, 2008 17:41:57
hai thr happy merdeka to all MT reader.....

MERDEKA MERDEKA MERDEKA......we all will get real MERDEKA after 13 sep if DSAI take over the goverment...... all malaysian pray to god hope DSAI wil take over the goverment from BN_UMNO racish goverment and work as malasians goverment.....

OUR FUTURE GOVERMENT IS PR GOVERMEN..........
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written by Motherchell, August 31, 2008 17:52:25
No, Syed Hamid is not stupid. He does not even have a poor command of English. This is all a Red Herring. They want to block, not censor, Malaysia Today. So they are using the insulting Islam issue as the excuse. That is all.


He also knows how the poor docile guys , they can manipulate to go berserk . Its not just a Red herring -- its bloodied RED.

My Dear Pete, we are together in it and your wisdom will illuminate!!! Thank you for being there for us all .
INSHALLAH!
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written by onnetline, August 31, 2008 18:07:05
Not censoring MToday but just blocking access to MToday is akin to saying that this Said Elbar is a ' racist moron ' by any legal standards !!!!
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written by densemy, August 31, 2008 18:26:31
Saving face... the reason that Asia will always remain ordinary achievers.

Men with nothing but ego to support them will lie, cheat and do anything underhand or illegal simply to save them from accepting that they are inadequate.
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written by bakas, August 31, 2008 18:59:54
They praise God on their lips, but made a mockery of His command by not observing the true command to do good and oppose evil. They fast and pray, but their fasting and prayer is not sincere, because those who pray and fast for Allah will shut out all evil thoughts and will try their best to do good unto others.

Funny how they observe the rituals, but do not try to understand what is the real essence behind it. Funny and sad how these people even persecute their brothers and sisters in Islam, who practice good values and observe the teachings of Islam, and the rest of people who do not subscribe to their brand of Islam, including the non-Muslim.

RPK does not need to even bet whether they will accept his offer to swear. We all know they will not. Because from the very beginning, what came out from them were lies. Truth will only expose lies, so they will be stupid to take this challenge. Let's see whether they will be consistent enough to follow what they teach, or like so many other times in the past, they will come up with 20 excuses on why RPK is not 'eligible' to swear...

To all my Muslim brothers, selamat menyambut bulan Ramadhan al-Mubarak.

To all my fellow Malaysians, happy independence day..keep up the good fight for freedom and justice.

To RPK, thank you...


Peace to all smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif
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written by roggon, August 31, 2008 19:01:37
not because I was a lost cause, but because I out-debated the ustaz and they felt, instead of the ustaz rehabilitating me, I might end up rehabilitating him?

YM RPK...you are one mean dude...I love you man!!!!!! keep it up....kick these morons
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written by cahaya, August 31, 2008 19:10:00
Of course, nothing but a red herring. The bald-headed minister had to say something, so he made up silly excuses: Malaysia Today had ignored many warning letters. (what letters? how many?) Malaysia Today has insulted either Islam or Prophet Muhammad. (oh really? when? how?)

Those were not the real reasons for the block. Perhaps blocking MT was to prevent MT from drawing attention to the DNA Identification Bill, which was being discussed and rushed to be passed in Parliament?

Some people are asking: Why the haste in passing the DNA identification bill? Someone suggested that perhaps it could be to bring a conclusion to that year-long murder trial. DNA analysis could conclusively confirm how many people (and exactly who they were) had been present at the murder scene.
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written by johntyc, August 31, 2008 19:12:37
If all Syeds are really descendants of the Prophet, then the Prophet must be particularly disappointed with Syed Hamid. smilies/sad.gif
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written by Australian Malaysian, August 31, 2008 19:18:53
I have been so disillusioned with Islam in the past due to the atrocities & admission of blame for damage & carnage done by so called Islamists. These people have a lot to answer for for the denigration of this peaceful religion in Malysia & abroad.

I remember fondly as a kid how we used to get along with our friends, play games, visit each other at our respective homes, respect each other's beliefs & never see the difference between ourselves as we kept our friends in high esteem & valued them beyond diamonds. Our friends were mainly comprised of Malays, Indians, Chinese & Eurasians. We hung out a lot & looked forward to each other's religious celebrations be it Hari Raya, Deepavali, Chinese New Year & Christmas as it gave us the opportunity to share a meal & to celebrate together. Sad to say, "Those were the days" as we reminisce of them today.

What I want to say is "Thank You" to RPK, DSAI & The TRUE Rakyat of Malaysia who have voiced their hope & opinions through MT. You have started a great restoration of the faith in me as you have clearly demonstrated through the MT site. There are a lot of true followers of Islam out there & you have been faithful & strong for the cause & you believe in reconcillation for the better of all Malysians. My faith in Islam has started to be healed especially reading of RPK's detention through the ISA. RPK, you should be become an ambassador for advocating the true values of Islam as you have learly demonstrated so. Hopefully others will follow your example especially certain people in this present government!

"Amar maaruf, nahi munkar; which means to uphold truth and oppose evil"
May God continue to Bless, Protect & Prosper You & Your Family
smilies/wink.gif
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written by anakmalaysia777, August 31, 2008 19:19:45
I am neither a Muslim nor an authority on any religion. However, anyone with simple common sense and some basic knowledge in world religions, will certainly agree that "amar ma'ruf and nahi munkar' are the very foundations on which all religions stand.

Certainly we have not read any excerpts in your columns that had condemned Islam or for that matter any other religion. Yes, you are right, in asking the government and Syed Hamid to more specific when they accuse others of not being faithful to their religion.

What you have exposed time and again in the spirit of "amar ma'ruf and nahi munkar' are those culprits whose deeds would clearly violate any religion, let alone Islam.

If these people felt offended enough by any of the statements made in the blogs, they have all the opportunity to correct those errors. And each one of them have numerous very highly paid secretaries and aides to assist them.

They should know that the Internet is not going to go away. It has become the main medium of communications. If they want lead Malaysia into this new age of technology, then they should show that they can use it effectively. If they cannot, then they are not fit to be leaders.

These leaders simply can no longer expect the Rakyat to accept ‘tak betul’ and ‘tak sesuai’ as sufficient argumentation against any view or opinion. I have to justify to my grandson why he should not or cannot do certain things. NO is simply no longer an answer. The same holds true for the Rakyat.

Since everyone in UMNO is so gung-ho about swearing on the Holy Koran, would Najib and Syed Hamid swear in the national mosque upon the Holy Koran that they were neither party to nor were aware of any incident in the PP elections where cash, belonging to the government, individuals or the party were distributed purely to induce people to vote for BN.

We the Rakyat of Malaysia on this memorable Merdeka day, support "amar ma'ruf and nahi munkar' and all those spirits, including of course YM Raja Petra, who promote these simple values that are critical for this beloved country of ours to survive in peace.

MERDEKA
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written by longjaafar, August 31, 2008 19:35:45
"Syed Hamid is not stupid and his command of English is not bad either".......
I beg to differ a bit. He is not stupid, I agree but he is not smart either. So many times he gives ridiculous statements, that should not come out from a minister.
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written by Eskay Lim, August 31, 2008 19:36:12
Well, Shit Head,
Anwar did it with Shabby Chik.
Lm Eng Guan did it with Dr.Koh.
Now, Ustaz Raja Petra has thrown a challenge,
Why don't you pick up the challenge since you talk so much?
Failing to do so would reflect badly on yourself....and kindly disappear.
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written by cruzeiro, August 31, 2008 20:09:33

written by longjaafar, August 31, 2008 | 19:35:45
"Syed Hamid is not stupid and his command of English is not bad either".......
I beg to differ a bit. He is not stupid, I agree but he is not smart either.
===========================================

Longjaafar,
I concur.
In certain political parties, it's wajib that you at least make yourself look stupid, even if you aren't - on all matters of statecraft.
It's however wajib to follow the creed of pirates, and resort to spin and fool the people using anything at their disposal.

It has been the name of the game, ever since the time of one Malabari has been .....
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written by apa jadi, August 31, 2008 20:18:25
There is a chinese saying: there is no shortage of excuses if you want to incriminate someone. Whatever excuse these power-that-be give, it is still excuse. It only shows their stupidity when cornered.
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written by Taikohtai, August 31, 2008 20:26:47
End of the day, it all boils down to selective interpretation, I guess.
Imagine even TDM joining in the chorus to get DSAI to swear his innocence on Conspiracy Sodomy II. Luckily, the final word from the Syariah council confirms that DSAI was following the correct Islamic way.
In the past, the majority of the Malaysian muslims would have been deceived. But today, most realise that there exist different interpretations. Having seen the past record of BN's double talk and hypocritical ways, they come to understand that it is time for a change. Time for the gomen to walk the talk, otherwise it's Asta La Vista!
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written by BennyG, August 31, 2008 20:37:23
RPK, good rebuttal on the warning letters coz' it just struck my mind, did MT has a corresponding address? smilies/cheesy.gif (at Botak (this nickname will insults botak especially since I'm also folicle challenged. Could someone suggest a better one? smilies/smiley.gif )

Anyway, amar maaruf, nahi munkar will always be stuck in my mind. Does this mean that there is no true muslims in the gov't since so much corruptions but so few were punished? Ooops, sorry except for those who share info with RPK.

Selamat berpuasa.
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written by wangchung, August 31, 2008 20:37:36
Pete! Just love your way. Man you are COOL. Keep on stepping on their tails and make them painful but unable to open mouth. smilies/grin.gif
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written by Engineer, August 31, 2008 20:43:01
The most sinful hypocrite in Islam is Old Man Maha Tail.
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written by educationist, August 31, 2008 20:57:36
Dear RPK,
Please excuse my ignorance, I know gambling is forbidden in Islam but cannot a friendly wager of a cup of coffee be allowed.
If it is, for the sake of a chance to sip coffee with you I'll take you up on the wager you threw at the government, even though I'm as sure as you are that there will no response.
Thank you for letting us know that ' to uphold truth and oppose evil -- is mandatory in Islam'.
Need I comment further if I use this as a yardstick against what the UMNOputras are doing?
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written by Anti Jihadist, August 31, 2008 21:12:39
I like to call the Bumis/Malays/Whatever, for all their avowed supremacy and privileges, as the 'Master Race' or the 'Herrenvolk'. That usually elicits nervous laughter, from those who understand the historical reference. The point is, as RPK has stated so lucidly, is that racialism/racism/whatever, even if carried out in the name of the noblest intentions, is an irredeemable evil that must be fought and resisted.

On a quite different topic...is anyone else having problems going to or viewing Malaysiakini tonight? Perhaps the Block/Black Hats of UMNO are setting their sites on that site now.
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written by Anti Jihadist, August 31, 2008 21:13:11
setting their sights, i mean smilies/grin.gif
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written by Richy, August 31, 2008 21:17:27
Former president of India Hon. Abdul Kalam is in Malaysia now. He is a righteous man who is a loyal Muslim, read almost all religious books of different faiths. Ask any Indians, all of them will be full of praises for him.

Indians regardless of their nationality and race and religion have so much respect and love for this man. The truth is he never professes and talks about Islam in public. It’s not necessary I believe as his life style itself reflects Islam. And I guarantee he has helped Islam to be seen as religion with big heart in the eyes of different religion and every other person who comes across him would only speak highly of this religion. This is how one should speak of his religion

How many leaders in Malaysia do that? They talk Islam; they claim they are more Muslim than RPK, others and possibly even Abdul Kalam. But the fact is they are not, Syed Albar too portrays himself as Muslim but do we see any quality of true Muslim in him?

Sorry to say this. It's mere hypocrisy without value.
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written by panca, August 31, 2008 21:31:04
From a direct and clear teaching, it has been and continue to be manipulated by power crazy politicians to cast confusion among the followers. They see the weakness and make them go berserk, it is dangerous minds at work to exploit hazy masses of unsuspecting followers.

From a direct and clear thinking, Pete points and help(if there are hazy ones still)those who hear but not listen to see for themselves and unknot years of multiple layers of confusion.

Finally, the substance instead of form where the ustaz gets the awakening from Pete whereby Pete lead the mind, mindfulness and clarity that rightful actions are manifested.

Yes, we are seeing double....double standard of these power crazy politicians of their practices!
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written by Gargamel, August 31, 2008 22:10:19
Wow, Pete. This is the most beautiful teaching of Islam I have ever read. Thank you. I have a new respect for Islam now.

Those of you who like Pete's "debates", read his book, From Prince to Prisoner. Then you'll see why the SB dare not 'brainwash' him! smilies/cheesy.gif
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written by johnT, August 31, 2008 22:12:10
If RPK insult Islam the goverment shall bring him to the syariah court so that he can defend himself to proff that he is following the quran command and did not insult Islam. From what i see he only slam the muslim people atitude that doest not following the Islam teaching and always make use of Islam for thier own interest. Or I could say that RPK is insult the munafik people.He make sure Islam in the right path. correct me if I am wrong
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written by Lim Lim, August 31, 2008 23:08:36
makkal sakthi !
amar maaruf,nahi munkar!
jia yu ,anwar n pakatan!
long live ketuanan rakyat!
mampus umno.
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written by Sabahfan, August 31, 2008 23:47:27


Pete, U not the first to out-debate an ustaz especially those appointed by UMNO.

My friend does that quite often.

in fact some of us even outdebate our priest and bishops..

That means there is really something wrong with malaysia now.

it is in distress
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written by Fuminari, August 31, 2008 23:53:58
by the way,to RPK n family plus all concerned out there,selamat berpuasa!!
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written by trublumalaysian, August 31, 2008 23:59:50
A government entity which should be purged of it's damaging agendas. BTN. A body which espouses malays to view MALAYSIANS OF ALL RACES with jaundiced eyes.

They are the purveyors of untruths, spewing venom by politicians to create the the divide for us Malaysians. Time has come to hark back to the drawing boards, fine-tune and move on.

I have every faith that all these BTN sods need, is a marathon non-stop session with RPK. (sheesh, 24 hours should do really)

The positive effects will unfold itself. God bless Malaysia for ALL Malaysians.

To all fellow Malaysian muslims, near and afar ... Selamat Berpuasa.
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written by Frankfurtguy, September 01, 2008 00:02:31
Pete,

Stand strong
Stand firm
You are the major factor to form the 2-party system in Malaysia
I used to be noninterested or "numb" in politic
BUT
you have waken me up
Thank you
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written by Msian 2, September 01, 2008 00:06:47
Pete -- Appreciate what U & family is doing to keep us inform on govt abuses. I understand its all done in the name of goodness for the country & its people. Thanks for being the fall guy, special appreciation to your family members on what they have to endure when U take a strong stand on correctness.
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written by cheekhiaw, September 01, 2008 00:08:00
Tiger Antics

The antics from one harimau bin abdullah and the way super admin stripped him of his belang really made me laugh.

The proverbial asking for for it.

xxx
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written by lord, September 01, 2008 00:14:05
This is nothing but a Red Herring. They are using an excuse that works well with most Muslims. If Muslims think you are insulting Islam or Prophet Muhammad they will go berserk. So what better excuse to offer than you are insulting Islam and Prophet Muhammad.

remind me of when you give analogy about PAS-UMNO muzakarah as khalwat. you know it's nothing like khalwat (man woman_close proximity) but you know it's more effective to damage PAS if you use an Islamic term as an analogy. It seem like you also use the same tactic that works well with Muslim. That comment of mine was deleted despite no vulgarity at all just a bit menongkah arus. how is that not censorship like that they're doing to your site now? but it may not be your doing could be the other moderator in here. I'm tempted to say the pot calling the kettle black.
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written by Lim Lim, September 01, 2008 00:19:40
to all muslim n of course RPK n Family,selamat berpuasa n hav a great time out there!oyasuminasai.
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written by Kopi37, September 01, 2008 00:47:10
A perfect discourse for rehabilitation to the naive and gullible souls who continue to believe and support the evilly UMNO hypocrites, the pathological liars with Hamid, Najis and the sleepy goat top the list !........
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written by GeoGeo, September 01, 2008 01:51:37
Bro Pete,

Let's do a 'Tit for Tat' on the Fake Lawyer.

Dig deep into his corrupted, dark exortic, racist secrets and expose them .

The Imam can then rehabitat him.

Do It.
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written by Siapabohong, September 01, 2008 02:11:25
They think Islam only belongs to them, not others. That's the problem why Islam is not accepted by others and not truely propagated because they are giving wrong teaching about the religion and made the religion solely theirs. These people have a lot answers to give when they meet God because they have failed to propagate the religion which can lead others to embrace it but instead make them angry and confuse with the teaching of the religion. If Islam is propagated properly and do not make it to look like it solely belongs to the Malay, then I believe many would have embraced the religion. So to those leaders who have deviated the teaching or used the religion to cover their political motives, you all better prepare answers for anticipated questions from God when you all meet Him soon which possibly about 'why in a multiracial and religious country like this country you all can't convince them to embrace to my religion? Don't blame the non-Muslim for having negative attitude towards the religion but the Muslim leaders of this country that deviated it and give wrong teaching and perception about the religion.
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written by PASOK, September 01, 2008 05:03:42
Super admin

I appeal for you to lift the ban on Harimau. Even though his post is offensive I dont think we should start banning people for comments they make. Probably he just had a fit of anger like what many people have from time to time. Please let us maintain freedom of speech on MT. Once we start banning people it will have a chilling effect and so far the beauty of MT is that people have no fear to say what they want to say.

Please reconsider
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written by talk2stop, September 01, 2008 08:13:39
Pasok
I can’t agree more. The minute you start banning you are putting a restriction. I am sure some rather not say anything for fear he/she will be ban. Just like blocking your site. Who is right and who is wrong is not for me to decide. It is like ISA one strike you are out.
We must educate them not punishing them. Punishing only make things worse. I rather someone respond to a distasteful comment or a warning with a given reason. Most of us a reasonable people.
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written by readmylips, September 01, 2008 08:17:14
I am torn between Super admin's banning of Harimau which I agree as we should try be civilised in what we write and PASOK's input which in a way is true. My two cents is that if you about to take out your anger by writing offensive material, first shout out what your about to write and if no one around you makes any comment, then go ahead and write away. If someone does then think again.......Cheers!
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written by SocratesI, September 01, 2008 09:04:22

Your interpretation of Islam is brilliant, Pete, but you made one mistake above. You are not insulting Muslims at all, either, as those who do not practise what is mandatory as Muslims to practise, such as amar maaruf, nahi munkar compulsory (wajib), THEN, HOW CAN THEY BE MUSLIMS in the first place ??

You were only scolding deviants who call themselves Muslims, but do not practise Islam ... Syed Hamid is just making excuses for banning Malaysia Today, which in itself is already a MORONIC act ! He is but a LIAR who keeps on lying to justify his DICTATORIAL actions. A TRUE DESPOT !!

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written by cinapek, September 01, 2008 09:07:17
Pasok said : I appeal for you to lift the ban on Harimau. Even though his post is offensive I dont think we should start banning people for comments they make. Probably he just had a fit of anger like what many people have from time to time. Please let us maintain freedom of speech on MT.

----------------------------

Freedom of speech does not mean you should be allowed to stand on a soap box in the middle of KL and shout obscenities, then ask to be forgiven because you were in a fit of anger. Then where do we draw the line? Are we to let someone commit murder and forgive him because he did it in a fit of anger?

I dare say more than half of the folks here are angry with something or other. Otherwise we would not be here. I did NOT vote for Pakatan because I like them. I voted for them because I was (still am) ANGRY with BN. I didn't walk up to the BN MP and shout vulgarities at her and ask to be forgiven because I was angry. I did it in the civil manner that was allowed to me - with my ballot.

If your child has a fit of anger and starts shouting obsceneties at passers by, do you close your eyes and accept that it was just a fit of anger?

An un-policed MT community will attract hooligans who simply enjoy that they can come and shit all over the place with vulgar comments and images. Don't think that they are BN supporters or not. Just drive down the road. You see idiots who just WANT to make life difficult for other law abiding drivers because to them, it's fun. Do you think they even care about you?

Similarly, isn't it at all possible that a fraction of commenters here (like Harimau perhaps) are just leaving vulgar comments because it's fun? That they know they won't be cautioned? It looks like they don't give a damn about what MT is all about and what RPK is trying to do. They just want to be allowed to spit their filth on other people. NO rules means chaos.

Please don't lose sight of the forest for the trees. Don't lose sight of the big picture. Even now, as we deliberate about this, the world is looking and perhaps thinking "Well there are voices of reason in the MT community and the people in charge of MT ARE trying to be responsible".

I accept any decision by Superadmin and the MT team. I may not be happy with the outcome, but I will abide by the decision. Sure it's easy to sit in our comfy homes and "encourage" RPK while he's in the lockup because we didn't consider the repercussions of our comments. Let's not take for granted RPK's pricipled stand of not disclosing the identity of his community by spitting on other people's faces with vulgar comments.

Remember the big picture. We can help paint a beautiful picture or destroy it. A nation is at stake.

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written by 1351, September 01, 2008 09:51:39
Greetings RPK, better half and all out there,

Good to note RPK, the fire is burning as passionately as ever. So much so, 'they' don't know what to do but to cling on to the sarongs.

'They' have/are using the cops, rope in sinister characters to do their bidding, bending the Penal Code ever which way to have you threaten BUT presenting you to the courts system also present a danger to them. By my calculations, having you charged(for what) and tried would be the worst folly 'they' could ever make. Perhaps that is why that one Syed was trying to play it cool - have the site blocked(ha-ha) and not have the books thrown at you or in custody.

Bad enough 'they' have to contend with Anwar but if any untowards were to happen to your person - the fallout would be more devastating RPK. Such is the quandry you pose that leaves them uncertain of their own futures.

With Anwar, 'they' can at least predict his next move but who on earth can say for certain what's on RPK's mind !!!

Yazoo RPK and all, selamat berpuasa my Muslim brethens.
Casper
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written by albertan98, September 01, 2008 09:55:39
1. On the banning of Harimau . . . perhaps a policy of 1st warning, 2nd warning and banning should be implemented? This will give a chance for Harimau to learn to be more responsible in his comments.

2. As to speaking up for right and opposing wrong . . . this is fundamental to a civilised society. When the majority remains silent when evil is perpetrated we give boldness to those who are evil (usually the minority) to destroy the country.

3. I happened to join a group of 30 over students and young adults in adelaide, gathering to celebrate Merdeka on 31st August. What did they choose to do . . run down Malaysia? No! Some wore "I Love Malaysia" T-shirts. And after dinner, they had great fun viewing the Petronas advertisements usually released before Merdeka that featured racial unity. They laughed their he*** off. I asked some, do they read Malaysiakini and Malaysia Today? YES! The young Malaysian diaspora loves their country and are hoping for better things for the future. And I think they see that in Anwar and the Pakatan Rakyat. By the way, they viewed the song by the artists of Malaysia (of all races) on You Tube and thoroughly enjoyed it. Just one last comment . . .one young person asked, how come this year's Petronas advert before Merdeka featured only one race (I may be wrong, but that seems to be what we saw) . . . what happened to the poignant adverts of years past that reflected on the common humanity of us all?

Malaysia, your people wait for you to open your arms and receive them! There was no malice in any of the students . . just sadness that they are not wanted.

RPK and Anwar . . . keep on fighting for a Malaysian Malaysia!
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written by cta, September 01, 2008 10:07:02
give the harimau a warning.if again,then action.don't ban him like the Gov.Selamat berpuasa to RPK n all the muslim around.sorry if i eat infront of u people. smilies/grin.gif
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written by Mangan, September 01, 2008 10:12:28
Who are they to argue/debate with you, RPK? They might pee in their pants!
Well, we have seen on TV before – remember the BLOG program?

BRAVO RPK!!!

smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif
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written by densemy, September 01, 2008 10:21:56
Superadmin... By banning Harimau you are playing the game that UMNO would want you to play. Censoring your own supporters

Freedom of speech is absolute. Sure it brings with it responsibilities and an expectation of maturity in what one says. But rudeness and profanities are no reason to curtain this freedom

The answer is education, and as cta and others have said, a warning is all that is necessary... even if you have to give him ten warnings

I might add that I have taken up this issue in the past with the administrators of MT, and I can assure readers that RPK would never support any form of censorship
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written by Limau, September 01, 2008 10:37:37
Dear RPK, Not all SYEDs are decent, I am sure alot of them are TIGERS hidden under SHEEP skin.
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written by Rhan, September 01, 2008 10:43:27
and I can assure readers that RPK would never support any form of censorship


How to assure? Even my criticism on Anwar is being deleted by this Super admin, and Harimau name is disclosed without his permission but this Super admin remain anonymous while doing all this censorship. What make you think MT is really different from BN control media?

Look at the style or trend of comments in the last two year and don’t we see it is comparatively more mature as compare to the past, is this achieve through your ****ing censorship?

Brainless Super admin.
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written by JoNg, September 01, 2008 10:48:41
WHO CHOPPED DOWN THE CHERRY TREE?

Legend has it that George Washington, America's first president, chopped down a cherry tree in his youth. The story goes that George gives the tree a good swing and chops it down with an axe. His father sees the damaged tree and asks his son if he knows who did the deed. George is quoted bravely admitting the truth: 'I can't tell a lie, Pa; you know I can't tell a lie. I did cut it with my axe.'

Below is a satire of how some Malaysian politicians circa 2008 may have reacted to the same question:

Abdullah Ahmad Badawi - 'I did not cut down the tree, I was just taking a nap underneath it.'

Najib Razak - 'I swear that I have never MET that tree.'

Hishamuddin Hussein Onn - '...but I only own a keris, not axe, how to cut down the tree?'

Dr Mahathir Mohamd - 'Apa nama cherry tree, yes, I chopped it down because, I don't like the idea of Pak lah sleeping under it.'

Chua Soi Lek - 'Yes it was me, I resign as caretaker of this orchard.'

VK Lingam - 'It could be me, it might have been me but I don't think its me.

Anwar Ibrahim - 'I did NOT do it, and I am not giving any DNA sample for you to plant on the axe handle.'

Mohd Khir Toyo - 'The new state government should just trim the grass and not waste time asking who cut the tree.'

Ahmad Said (Terengganu MB) - 'I chopped it because cherry trees are more expensive to maintain than durian trees.'

Azalina Othman - 'The cherry tree is not included under my tourism MOU so I cut it down and besides there were unauthorised signboards put up around the tree.'

Shabery Cheek - 'I challenge you to a debate on tree cutting.'

S Samy Velu - 'I chopped it because Hindraf members were using it as a meeting point.

Wira Ali Rustam - 'We have planted durian trees for 50 years and we will plant them for another 50 years, we do not need cheery trees, apple trees, pear trees and all these other foreign trees.'

Rais Yatim - 'You must see the bigger picture, Ahmad said cherry trees are expensive to maintain,Ali Rustam said that are against our national identity and I needed to test my new axe, so you see, it is a WIN-WIN situation all around.'

Sharir Samad - 'I cut the tree because we could no longer afford to subsidise it.'

Karpal Singh - 'The bigfoot creature did it.'

Bung Mokhtar - 'The big monkey did it'
Pandikar Amin Mulia - 'There is nothing in the standing orders against chopping cherry trees. Kinabatangan duduk,Bukit Gelugor duduk.

Khairy Jamaluddin - I did not do it, neither did the MatRempits. By the way, what's a cherry tree?'

Lim Kit Siang - 'Cherry tree also you don't know, you are an insult to Oxford!'

Nazri Abdul Aziz - 'Racist, racist, racist! When we cut down durian trees nobody made a fuss .Now...'

Malaysian Citizens - 'Oh for heavens sake! Somebody plant something before we all starve to death!'

Happy 51st Malaysia
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written by Super admin, September 01, 2008 10:50:05
The e-mail Raja Petra sent to the moderators:

Please note the posting below. It seems someone has been deleting his comments on Anwar Ibrahim. I would be grateful of you could confirm this.

written by Rhan, September 01, 2008 | 10:43:27

and I can assure readers that RPK would never support any form of censorship


How to assure? Even my criticism on Anwar is being deleted by this Super admin, and Harimau name is disclosed without his permission but this Super admin remain anonymous while doing all this censorship. What make you think MT is really different from BN control media?

Look at the style or trend of comments in the last two year and don’t we see it is comparatively more mature as compare to the past, is this achieve through your ****ing censorship?

Brainless Super admin.

--
Raja Petra Kamarudin
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written by RitchieLow, September 01, 2008 11:55:00
Harimau banned as in MT blocked ? Is there any difference really.

Dont the -251 vote say something about the Harimau post, both to Harimau and other readers of MT? Is this not a democratic process whereby one is left to judge for oneself the appropriateness and general sentiments for and against a post ?

So why the high handed censorship ? As arrogant as an UMNO goon ?
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written by KetamPadang, September 01, 2008 11:58:39
.. "We just think that Malays are the Lords of this land and the non-Malays are all immigrants who can’t be allowed the same rights and privileges as the Lords of this land....."

Ayaa Malays are an earlier migrants than the Chinese or Indians to the land called Malaya (Tanah Melayu). RPK tells that his grandies arrived in Malaya from the Nusantara and settled and established a settlements. The Chinese, Arab, Gujaret, Indians arrived later maybe and maybe they settled and trades. The Natives like Orang Asli maybe has settled much earlier then those Malays, Chinese or Indians either in this Land called Malaya.

Now Malays are saying that they are the Tuan because they are an earlier migrants to Malaya... afterall... '' we came earlier than you.. perhaps. They are claiming they are Tuan even to the Orang Asli ... which presence in Malaya even earlier then the Malay.
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written by apa jadi, September 01, 2008 11:59:53
I was trying to refrain myself commenting on Harimau's banning. But the rate it is going, looks like someone has gone overboard, both Harimau and Superadmin. It takes two hands to clap,isn't it? I would have no complaint if the superadmin wanted to ban Harimau. But showing up his name is a callous abuse of power. How would you expect people to participate in a discussion when their identity call be revealed anytime at the moderator's wish? Think about it!

While the power-that-be is putting up a red herring to deceive the general public, it looks like we have also been deceived to chase after the red herring. I believe the banning, or filtering or whatever-you-call-it, has nothing to do with the religion issue raised. It was just that someone who couldn't stand the heat of being exposed of his/her misdeeds, doing a desperate move to get the heat out of him/herself(themselves). Don't fall trap to chasing after the red herring.


Btw, the timeout to add comment is too short for people typing online. My typing speed is pretty fast.
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written by JJFoo, September 01, 2008 12:40:43
So far, Syed Hamid has been most successful in self-incrimination. He doesn’t seem to realise that very time he opens his big mouth, without fail, he did just that. Worst, we the tax payers are paying peoples of such twisted mentality their salaries.

Devils incarnate accusing RPK of being disrespectful to Islam. This Hamid guy is quite a joker and the jokes are all on him.
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written by cheekhiaw, September 01, 2008 13:04:15
adMITTING A TIGER

May be Super admin's reaction to Harimau bin Abdullah was a bit too drastic a reaction to a childish antic.

And the Vote Down feature would have served the purpose for it allows the rest to express our disgust and maturity in relation to the irresponsible and inconsiderate.

May be that particular cat did it once too often - it is a matter of self-control.

One should remember that when one shows no consideration, one forfeits one's right to it.

Perhaps this can be re-conciled with Super admin re-admitting Harimau with a new ID - Harimau bin Nobelang?

xxx
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written by Kopi37, September 01, 2008 13:13:44
The case of Harimau Bin Abdullah revealed to me one thing, the facts of life, that, there are too many flea-bags and scumbags, hypocrites, pathological liars and ever flip-flop characters have been in the forefront of political arena posturing themselves to be the top hierarchy 'leaders', with every intends to inculcate upon the decent and gullible citizenry that it's not all due to their grandiloquent lies ability, their tom-fooleries, the despicable subterfuge of witch hunting, and their most condemnable act of character assassination in religious taboo etc., in spite of admitting their mediocrity and incapability to lead the Nation to prosperity and stability, as much as all these live telecast and events ad nauseam had caused Harimau to have his outburst of paroxysm of hate, though goofy, but, is apprehensible and worth to be warned for not to duplicate the same in future.

If Ahmad Ismail due to his piffle may just be mildly 'instruct not to repeat' the seditious statement by the corrupted ring leader, Harimou's quotation may just be taken as a mere irrelevant remarks of impudence from the mouth of a tetchy individual. This is my two cents worth.......................
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written by megabigblur, September 01, 2008 13:23:42
Haha, this ustaz guy who had to deal with RPK seems like he came from a certain type of religious school. And I'm not talking about a type of school that's specific to a certain religion - in every organized religion, you can find seminaries or schools where students are never taught to deal with "real life", to argue, debate, and think critically about their faith. They just tell you to believe, believe, believe but don't examine WHY you believe, so when someone else asks you, you dunno how to answer. And in this case too, the ustaz can't explain why he's blindly following authority.

(I'm a Christian and I know there are a few lousy Christian colleges like that...I'm sure there are similar examples for madrasahs, Buddhist schools, etc. too.)

Btw, regarding the banning of "Harimau" - I don't see it as censorship. What Harimau was doing is called trolling - going beyond simply expressing one's negative opinions and purposely trying to make trouble for the whole MT community. If a small kid shits in a swimming pool by accident, you don't ban kids from the pool, but if an adult pulls down his swimming trunks in full view of everybody and shits in the water, BAN THE BARSKET!
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written by johntyc, September 01, 2008 14:20:39
I do not support banning, censoring, or 'blocking'. At the same time we can't afford to have these type of comments.

No Holds Barred
Not all Arabs are descendants of the Prophet


August 24, 2008 | 12:53:40
August 24, 2008 | 16:47:59
August 24, 2008 | 18:20:05
August 24, 2008 | 18:32:18
August 24, 2008 | 18:58:16
August 25, 2008 | 06:43:33 -- ?
August 27, 2008 | 13:13:17

understand what I mean! smilies/angry.gif
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written by letsbefair, September 01, 2008 14:46:40
I do not condone what Harimau Bin Abdullah posted. It is both offensive and unreasonable to make such comments.

However let us think before we decide. Is he given a chance to defend himself before the super admin ban him? With him banned he have no chance to do so.

Suppose if he is given a chance to explain it all he may say that he did not post it but that someone else hacked into the system. Perhaps someone used his computer to do it. Perhaps he was drunk and did it in the spur of moment. But whether he is guilty or not he should be given a chance before the super admin act in such a way against him. One way to judge him is to review his past postings. Are they all offensive and unreasonable?

The other thing I hope the super admin should not do is to reveal his name! What if he is actually innocent? How would any of us feel if it happens to us? Wouldn’t it freak us all out? Please remove his name!

UMNO will use all kinds of tactics to ban and censure. If it is not these it can be another reason they will cook up. Good example is the arrest of the two Perak PKR assemblymen for alleged corruption just before the Permatang Pauh by-election. They can say that one of the reasons for banning Malaysia-Today was because of comments from readers. If not that they will find something else.

Threats, intimidation and censuring are the hallmark of tyrant government and organization. MT is supposed to champion freedom of speech and human rights. Thus MT should mirror as such and be fair to all.
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written by Lim Lim, September 01, 2008 15:05:57
superadmin,banning 'harimau' based on what he has written here is not an issue ;but revealing his identity while u remain anonymous is somehow not right!this gives the impression that MT from that certain angle is no difference from umno/BN...one way traffic!somehow it does defeat the purpose of RPK's message ...amar maaruf,nahi munkar!
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written by AhLiew, September 01, 2008 15:16:00
Some opinion regrading censorship :
If someone point a finger to you, say your mother is a whore and your father is a pig, will you response " err...I respect your right to express your opinion.."?

There must be a limit until what extend a comment is acceptable. It not easy to draw the line but from Harimau's comment I agree with Super admin that he had cross the limit.
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written by letsbefair, September 01, 2008 15:21:32
Thanks johntyc. I see the logic now in banning this joker.
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written by cinapek, September 01, 2008 16:00:52
AhLiew said :
Some opinion regrading censorship :
If someone point a finger to you, say your mother is a whore and your father is a pig, will you response " err...I respect your right to express your opinion.."?

---------------------------------

It's easy to preach "freedom of speech" when the person who is going to pay for commentors' right to "freedom of speech" by sitting in jail is RPK.

But the reality is that in Malaysia, as Ahmad Ismail has proven, it is all right for UMNO to say that to MCA but if MCA were to say that to UMNO, they would already be hauled up, and facing a judge. As it is now, he is just getting a slap on the wrist and a mild "Now, now, don't be a naughty boy".

Such incidents are building hatred amongst all of us. So shall we proclaim that Ahmad Ismail has the right to say that because of "freedom of speech"? All my life, I have had to watch every word I say to members of a certain race even if it IS the truth, because the unwritten law says that I cannot speak my mind to them but they are allowed to say anything to me.

There will come a time when the last straw will break the camel's back. Unpoliced comments here will only serve to sow more seeds of hatred.
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written by Eskay Lim, September 01, 2008 16:17:18
Dear Super admin or whosoever at MT.

Your time allowed to add comments is far too short.
Tried to add a 50 word comment (with fast typing) failed me 3 times; each time asking me to register.
This is my second attempt.
What a waste of time.
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written by macanhitam, September 01, 2008 16:55:06
hey guys, lets have a petition that our honourable RPK havin a debate with Syed Hamid. what say you? i'd love to see Syed Hamid get bashed, the RPK style!

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written by Malaysia Ku, September 01, 2008 18:53:53
Guys, I think we need to be more responsible when we write our comments. As it is RPK has quite a problem to keep Malaysia Today going or else we not be able to enjoy his writing anymore.. Two days without a PC and I miss him already.. smilies/wink.gif smilies/cheesy.gif Happy Merdeka!
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written by kingelvis, September 01, 2008 19:01:12
Repent Harimau Bin Abdullah! We don't want 1 form of racism to be replaced by another. But it's Pete's writing and call for revolution that has the AG and IG office switching onn the shreading machines just in case! After Sept 15 as far as the gomen is concerned, everyday will be Sept 15...yes anytime the takeover will happen..piss in your pants shithe***. smilies/grin.gif smilies/smiley.gif
And then it's the AGs head first I bet.
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written by kingelvis, September 01, 2008 19:02:16
Yes Malaysia ku I agree.
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written by shangrilapeace, September 01, 2008 19:49:33
To Eskay Lim,

Leave your current MT page 'red herring' with the written contents intact eventhough it is out of time. Then open a new MT site, sign in, copy your earlier comments on 1st MT page and paste it on your newly signed MT page 'red herring' and hit
'add Comment'
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written by Angel, September 01, 2008 20:24:06
Am not sure what the procedure is but I too have problems sometimes when I write and need to rewrite several times because am told I have to log in and be a member to write. Looks like I have to relog in to write comments for each article.

Can't we just log in once and not have to log in again and again each time we post a comment? We log out when we leave the website. It is tedious.
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written by Taiping60, September 01, 2008 20:39:21
RPT,

If everyone is sincere to pursue the truth and righteousness then there will not be any difficulty to explain and reasons out. Anything other than that can never make sense.

This explained why the Ustaz has difficulty answering you.

This explained why the government has difficulty justifying blocking you wedsite.

Well, we only have one hope.

The truth will prevail

Good eventually beat the evils.
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written by SocratesI, September 01, 2008 22:14:44

A great article marred by 2 things:- An insensitive stupid remark left by Harimau bin Abdullah, and the high-handedness way in which Superadmin handled it.

I am an avid advocate fro freed speech, but derogatory idiotic comments should be avoided as whoever says these comments would have them reflect back on himself rather than those he has so intended to insult.

Whacking all the Arabs because of 1 bad apple, S*it Hamid All-Bare, is not on. If he just whacked S*it Hamid without going after everyone else, it would still be acceptable, as S*it Hamid had the GALL to ban MT and in such an UNJUST manner, then he is open season for anyone to comment on his character, or an absence of it !

One thing Superadmin did which is not forgiveable is to publish Harimau's name without permission. Censorship and moderation of the site is one thing, and if Superadmin and Raja Petra condones this sort of censorship on the MT site, that is up them. But to disclose the identity without cause is something else.

This is not good for a site that is supposed to be fighting for free speech and a civil society !! I hope there will be lessons learnt from this and no repeat of Superadmin's behaviour in the future ! For the sake of Malaysia Today !

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written by MasterYoda, September 01, 2008 22:31:09
RPK,

get this straight.
After what Super admin has done (as in the style of handling)....I quit commenting.
I would rather you have them vote down or delete the comment.
Yes its your site and you have the right to censor indecent comments. and I agree.
but the way it was the ban was meated out... it was very crude.
You must juggle between the people and the bloody government.
The style of treatment cannot be the same.
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written by Mag M, September 01, 2008 23:57:31
The banning of Harimau is justified but the exposing of name is not. Comments like his makes others feel uncomfortable just as racists remarks does to people. Let common sense and maturity in posting prevail.
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written by A MI, September 02, 2008 07:07:01
Is Syed Botak really of Arab descent? Even if he is, does genealogy prove he is the Prophet's (PBUH) descendant?

Wikipedia seems to show that the term Syed as used by Malays here looks like the one used in the Indian subcontinent and Iran

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid smilies/grin.gif

Great piece as usual and a good challenge YM RPK but is Botak man enough to take it up?

Anyways, people let us all in the amar maaruf nahi munkar see what we can do in the by-elections waiting to happen. Let us help the people in those constituencies get the truth about the ruling corrupt politiicians.
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written by teo siew chin, September 02, 2008 09:01:00
"...but the way it was the ban was meated out... it was very crude..."
---------------

and vulgar offensive inappropriate comments posted are not crude?

and what is HIDING behind a pseudonym to post vulgarities considered as?

every single time we hide BEHIND YM RPK in our nameless posts, we are jeopardising his freedom - how's about we all declare OUR names and let YM RPK off the hook!

I will never fault Superadmin or any of the MT-Team any of their actions which are aimed at protecting and defending YM RPK & MT.

"He who merely observes forfeits his right to be a critic."


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written by SocratesI, September 02, 2008 09:22:03

Teo Siew Chin,

I admire your blood & guts approach, but let us see this a little deeper. Why would RPK & Superadmin run a site like Malaysia Today, if they wanted to be "protected and defended" ??

If protection & defence is what they want, Malaysia Today would be NO MORE !! It is precisely taking the burden off the common man and offering himself selflessly for the Malaysian Cause that is what makes RPK, RPK ! Knowing how dirty the Govt. is in prosecuting the RAKYAT having been a victim himself, he has chosen to take this crusade on his shoulders, which Superadmin has suddenly laid squarely back on the reader's/ commentator's (Harimau) shoulders by disclosing his name.

Is this what RPK wants ?? I don't know, but if it is, then RPK, it is time to retire and close Malaysia Today down !

Somehow, I don't think this is what our feisty champion wants, so Teo, I think you are being holier than thou at this point.

RPK, would you care to comment ?!!

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written by teo siew chin, September 02, 2008 09:55:17
Socrates1

It is SuperA and the MT-Team who has taken it upon themselves to protect that Big Guy who always marches onwards regardless.
SuperA and the MT-Team choose not to take "#%^&$% from us which endangers RPK - I respect that!
And if that protection involved removal of threats to his safety from unreasonable pointless vulgar comments from us, so be it.
There are plenty of well-reasoned commendable comments worthy of note - why the need to resort to vulgarity? Whose level are we going down to when we take that path? Whose "hand" are we playing to?

Say what? you want RPK's comment on this? You want him to take side between his Team and us? puhhhhleeees!
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written by dkkl, September 02, 2008 10:05:34
and we living beings are made of sand & mud as what recorded in bible and quran? err... I really doubt that... because we all know that from archeology that there were big foot, cave men and other homosapien exists before the modern humans. On the other hand, egypt, romae and other powerful civilisation existed way back long ago even before bible & quran was written.
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written by mamak, September 02, 2008 10:06:26
Agenda Daily.

Please arrange the 'Debate of the year'.

Syed Hamid vs RPK.


Many of our current leaders are totally lost.

I would like to propose that our PM , Najis, SIL, dll to attend the three-days Islamic rehabilitation program at Kemunting Training Centre.

They are totally lost... sesat...

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written by dkkl, September 02, 2008 10:06:27
sorry, romae -> romans, civilisation -> civilised nation smilies/wink.gif
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written by businessman, September 02, 2008 10:21:46
KILL A PERSON TO WARN THE OTHER 100
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

In Chinese saying, there is such a thing as kill a person to warn other 100. In Harimau case, he should be sacrifies to warn the other 100 persons. Super admin at least do the right thing eventhough it is a harsh one. But our PM here dont even dare to take the same action as our Super admin.



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written by skc, September 02, 2008 10:58:49
Dear SocratesI,
I have not read all the comments on this article yet, so if I have offended you I am sorry.
Now to the point you have make on "by disclosing his name. (harimau)"
What is wrong with that, if you write with care then there is no fear of exposure, if you are standing on your principle then there is even less to fear. But if a person is just out to *&^% for no reasons at all, what does that make him or her ? Does such a person deserve defending ? What does that tells me about the people who wish to defend him ?
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written by skc, September 02, 2008 11:03:40
Dear MasterYoda,
Now after reading more, I come across your posting. What is wrong with you people ? When a thing is not right, it is not right, regardless of whatever reasons (or decorations) you might come up with. What should we get angry when the Government do something wrong, and keep quite when one of us has make the same mistake ? You are just as bad as the government, when we do it, it is ok but not for you ???????
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written by Rainbowseahorse, September 02, 2008 12:12:24
I bet you rehabilitated that Ustaz who then had to be debriefed from your..ehhh…debate!
If you ever get an invitation from any Ustaz Mufti, Tok Guru…or even a bomoh…do let us know yah! I would love to be there or at least a transcript of what transpire as I surely can use some of your debate materials.

Syed Hamid Akbar a descendent of the Prophet?? Nooo lah! His head is too big! A Merchant Banker?? Ahhhh, that I believe coz he has a very lucrative business in his ancestries homeland of Yemen…you know, the two pirated MISC tankers recently? Very lucrative business! Worth at least rm10 million!
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written by jasongaust, September 02, 2008 12:35:21
I want to comment on the banning of Harimau.
"Suspend" him from posting for a period of time (say 1-3 months?) would be a more appropiate punishement I thought, giving MT is the champion of free speech, fairness and all good mankind.
Repeated offences will lead him to longer suspension and eventual removal from membership roll if he persisted after a final warning.
By announcing his full name to the MT public as a warning to others or for whatever reasons is wrong, and very very wrong. Harimau's offensive posting can be considered mild compared to some of those animals in UMNO.
Give Harimau an opportunity to opologize to the MT readers and likewise, I think MT admin owes him an opology as well by publishing his personal details.
Lets work together to rebuild our beloved country and a Bangsa Malaysia!

Melbourne, Australia.
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written by dkkl, September 02, 2008 13:06:12
banning Harimau? err..... what has happened to the concept of "No Holds Barred"
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written by johntyc, September 02, 2008 13:31:36
No Holds Barred
Not all Arabs are descendants of the Prophet

written by HARIMAU BIN ABDULLAH, August 24, 2008 | 12:53:40
Arabs are descendants of PIGS. That is why they do not eat pork, although many of the new generation eat pork, and drink pig's urine. Some even **** and sodomise pig. They are all faked mulims, and now yet the people of bolehland blindly follow them.

written by HARIMAU BIN ABDULLAH, August 24, 2008 | 16:47:59
Arabs are mentally sick animals, and bolehland people are blind, and no better.

written by HARIMAU BIN ABDULLAH, August 24, 2008 | 18:20:05
Bolehlanders blindly ape the Arabs, and blindly follow their faked religion.

written by HARIMAU BIN ABDULLAH, August 24, 2008 | 18:32:18
Arabs are descendants of syatan.

written by HARIMAU BIN ABDULLAH, August 24, 2008 | 18:58:16
Arabs worship syatan, and we blindly follow them.

written by HARIMAU BIN ABDULLAH, August 25, 2008 | 06:43:33
The ichibawa has gone to the US to prostitute herself for free.

written by HARIMAU BIN ABDULLAH, August 27, 2008 | 13:13:17
Prophet committed a lot of sins, including forcing an underage girl to be his wife. The Arabs are worst, and committed even worst kind of sins. Needless to say those who ape the Arabs, including people from Swearland, are unfit to be human.


Dear jasongaust. You consider these MILD! Try change the word Arabs to Malay or Chinese or Indian or whatever race or ethnic you're from!

DON'T get MT or RPK into trouble with all this!

*personal details publishing without permission is WRONG!
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written by skc, September 02, 2008 13:40:53
Dear johntyc,
Wa you actually gone and search for Harimau's comments, hahaha, yes now lets see how many will be willing to defend Harimau.
The actual thing here, I believe, is that people are scare that admin might publish their name also, so much for standing up and be counted when it matters. Lol
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written by jasongaust, September 02, 2008 13:58:11
Dear jasongaust. You consider these MILD!
-------------------------------------------------
Dear johntyc, I said mild COMPARED to statements uttered by some of those UMNO animals from time to time.
I have concluded MT is a first class Blogger site and its owner RPK is a very decent human being. I want both these God given gifts to continue leading us out of the dark tunnel and into a brighter future for all Malaysians.

I'll defend MT and RPK to my last breath!
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written by Su Dhanoa, September 02, 2008 14:08:23
Dear RPK, Selamat Berpuasa to you and your family. I admire your gutsy approach. It brought some good laughter around.

It is common to see people who are shiny as washed wax; They seem and look very clever and very virtuous, but in reality, they are without understanding and are very corrupted - especially in our Government. Which is really really sad!!!
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written by jalapeno, September 02, 2008 14:13:51
Dear all, after reading Harimau Bin Abdullah's past comments as revealed by Johntyc (Sept 1, 14:20:39), I do seriously think Harimau is mentally disturbed and Super admin must have banned him out of desperation to keep the MT of its standard.

Sorry Harimau...I think you should consult a doctor. You sound more like an extremist than any of the religious extremist out there.
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written by saintalf, September 02, 2008 14:29:18
Banning on Harimau.

Who is gonna be hit or punish if we comment irresponsible?
Government block sites cos of?
What if a commentor or reader was a mole or have a evil plan in his mind to destroy MT?
Does RPK responsible for his Hold No Barred comment?
If you guys wanna comment like the hold no barred,would you ready to face the music by the police like RPK?

Everyone likes to watch boxing and comment,but no viewers would like to get hurt.MT is allowing you guys to comment in his house,not burning the house down.Who is going to pay the repair and damages if it burned?You,me or the irresponsible commentators?If you wanna comment like the Hold No Barred i suggest you set up your own site or blogs and blast whatever you like on your own expense and risk.If you dare to comment something why not stand up to show the real you who comment.Dun act like an coward.If you dun dare to reveal yourself then dun comment.

Hope some of you get my point here.Please look at the purpose and duty of each individual of a person who fight.I am not defending anyone here.Please think about it.Be more responsible and less selfish.

Peace
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written by saintalf, September 02, 2008 14:31:51
Sorry guy,Hold No Barred should be read as No Hold Barred.

My apologize.
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written by densemy, September 02, 2008 15:53:45
Asians have a rather quaint concept of Freedom of Speech... you can say whatever you like so long as you agree with me.

They also have a deeply embedded desire to tell everyone else what to do. Not surprising really because that's what their childhood consisted of

There is a famous quote regarding Freedom of Speech "I dont like what you have to say but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

That's what Freedom of Speech is all about. It is absolute. And whether you disagree with what the author has to say or whether you think he is a raving looney you have to respect his/her right to say it

Anything other than absolute freedom is what you have now where every Tong, Dileep and Khairy thinks they have the right to limit your right to say what you want.

There should be no punishment of Harimau... you just have to put up with him and show by your vote that you dont agree with his comments
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written by skc, September 02, 2008 17:05:43
Hey densemy,
I am not defending any freedom of speach thingy, I am saying wrong is wrong and right is right. I do not need to taste shit, when it looks like shit and smell like shit, to confirm it is shit. OK.
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written by skc, September 02, 2008 17:07:18
Sry should read "speech"
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written by skc, September 02, 2008 17:09:48
Just wonder,
Does freedom of speech cover this :-
I am forcefully converting other to my religion by calling all theirs fake, or a religion of satan, put there to confuse us, my is the only true religion and god.
Dear densemy, care to comment ?
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written by skc, September 02, 2008 17:14:05
Absolute indeed. Just cant stand people with those black is black and white is white with grey out the window.
Most people just forget the most basic of things - we should try to be better human first before anything else. If we cannot even be human, the rest is just so much hot air.
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written by teo siew chin, September 02, 2008 17:55:30
Dear Densemy

Surely freedom means freedom to say what you SHOULD say and not whatever you like!
I really cannot see the logic of defending pure unadulterated filty words whatever the circumstance they were used in.
I definitely will defend Harimau's call for clean honest governance but NOT when he calls for %%%^^& clean %^^&** honest $#%^& governance by removing %^&*%$$$% civil servants who are %^&*()%$. Duhhhh!
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written by SocratesI, September 02, 2008 19:25:49

Teo Siew Chin,

Who are you to judge what can be said by who ?? You can argue and differ but you cannot stop us from having our own opinion otherwise you are no better than Barisan NAJIS !

RPK and Superadmin can ban people from the site as it is their prerogative, but it is not on to disclose Harimau's name for no reason. That is the crux of the issue. Sure I take exception to Harimau insulting the Arabs as I have many Arabic friends, but that doesn't mean we can betray Harimau !

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written by Rhan, September 02, 2008 20:12:49
I seldom comment on the No Holds Barred section nowadays to adhere to RPK advice that the subject are sometimes not suitable for those who mindset is at kid level or too sensitive, like myself, especially on topic related to Race, Islam and Muslim.

Meanwhile, we must not forget that RPK writing style could be touching, passionate, satirical, enraged, and often straightforward but at the same time metaphorical. Therefore we can’t expect all the readers would have the same level of comprehension and put in their comments within the expected allowed boundaries.

Base on search done by johntyc, we know that Harimau has been writing the same offensive way for quite a while but we don’t see any warning from MT, could this be the reason that convince him to believe that MT is a truly no holds barred?

If the intention is to kill one Harimau to warn the monkey due the recent development to check bloggers, this could be an unavoidable decision, otherwise I am in the opinion that MT shouldn’t disclose his name. By saying this, I agree with jalapeno that Harimau should consult a hmmm…veterinary.

RPK, sorry for the rude language on my previous comment, I have low EQ.
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written by SocratesI, September 02, 2008 20:32:34

SKC,

2 wrongs don't make a right, and although you are full of righteous bravado about "if you are right, what is the problem with disclosing the name ??"

The problem with that is Harimau may not share your same sentiment and it is his right to do so. He was wrong to insult all Arabs, but Superadmin was wrong in disclosing his name without permission. It is MT, Superadmin's and RPK's right to ban him from the site though, if they see fit as MT is THEIR site.

That is the point !

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written by nero287, September 02, 2008 20:35:05
I think that if Harimau actually has the balls, then he should set up his own blog and utter all these profanities and absurd comments in his own blog. He should be like RPK, reveal who he really is and then state his case. I strongly support his banning. We don't condone racism, either by the ruling party or by people hiding under assumed identity. Good riddance Harimau!!
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written by SocratesI, September 02, 2008 20:46:34
Nero287,

Frankly, I support the banning too as I have many Arabic friends and they are great people. But, I just needed to make a point about profanities, and racist remarks like what harimau said was wrong, but revealing his identity without his permission or at least consultation, is also high-handed and wrong of Superadmin.

It is their prerogative to ban him, however, but it does take the STING out of "No Holds Barred" when that is done. Anyway, it is their right.

But I agree with Harimau on the S*it Hamid bit !

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written by lord, September 02, 2008 20:49:42
****** will tell you that this Yeo Kee Liang who used the Malay sounding name complete with 'bin' probably to deceive his true identity is actually a committee member of Seu Teck temple. hiding behind this pseudonym he talk smack about Malay, Arab and Islam. this guy is worst than scum.
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written by saintalf, September 02, 2008 20:54:25
Article 'The 'offending' article that got MT block

No Warning??? Then what is this?


This is the article, published on 16 January 2008, that resulted in Malaysia Today getting blocked. However, it seems it is not the article but the 172 comments from readers below that article that was the brunt of the government action. Maybe now you readers will be careful with what you post lest, again, we suffer the same fate. You readers will have to be more responsible with what you post to avoid future action by the government.

He is telling you guys in a mature manner,if warn you guys with stern action some may not like it.Please la guys,stop arguing.Are you guys seriously reading or not?

Peace LA
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written by Concerned_Citizen, September 02, 2008 23:06:10
RPK is really a guy that admire most! A lot that I must learn from a humble man that stands for justice and the truth!
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written by theedenproject, September 03, 2008 05:36:21
I keep laughing to myself picturing tomorrow's would-be headlines on local dailies that "YB RPK swearing on the Quran" next... That would be awesome... and if that really happens, Saiful's swearing will really be a joke even among the Muslims. smilies/smiley.gif
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written by AngryTaxpayer, September 03, 2008 10:30:49
Dear RPK,

And that is precisely why the goons from UMNO would cower in fear whenever you throw them a challenge smilies/wink.gif
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written by batsman, September 03, 2008 10:39:52
Does she make appointments with C4 experts too?
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written by skc, September 03, 2008 10:54:29
Dear SocratesI,
What I am trying to say is that all of us have being born as human should first and foremost be a human being. And here you are defending Harimau's right to say those things he has say or written in this case, think about it for a sec. Does someone who try to create hate and maybe subsequent harm later have the right to speak at all (At least those hate inducing type of things) ?
We are the only being on earth who hunt for spot, now what is harimau trying to do ? Worst then those who hunt for spot ? Below the animal level ?
So if you support that, then you must also support free speech that terrorist uses to push their followers to commit suicide booming ? Right ?
Never forget the basic, we must be human first, the rest comes later. Free speech applies to human only, ok ?
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written by skc, September 03, 2008 11:07:04
Support free speech is good, support for free speech that induce hate and cause racial clashes is a big no in Malaysia. Not sure what other countries stand on this is and frankly not too interested either.
As to exposing his (harimau) name, on the site, well, first of all is that his/her true name ? Secondly as saintalf has say, we have been warn. People just give it a rest, superadmin has my support on this ban and exposure. We are trying to make a better Malaysia here and that means better Malaysian first.
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written by Mirage, September 03, 2008 11:22:51
Firstly, thank you for removing a torn (the toothless Harimau) among the good constructive feedbacks and fantastic forum. This is the first time in years and years as far as I can remember feeling a sense of unity in Malaysia. This is brought about because ppl are fed up with the administration of non performing and opportunitic goverment. And the problem is magnified because the rakyat have now a common problem and its binding them. I am saying this just from simple daily infomation that readers can get from the daily newspaper and not even from MT. Imagine if the rakyat has 100% access to the MT or other forum open and transparent info, the results would have to be worst than the political tsunami described.

I hope we can continue to see beyond this race and religion issues which is getting us nowhere.....or what our Love Guru has thought us......Nowhere to Now Here!! While the Gov or to describe certain constituencies having their own mind, the mistake here is still thinking that the problem is race or religion related and focussing there. Let me say this ...the fact is currently all races are facing the common inFLATION problem which is getting us together. See how binding? Do we for one moment believe that this is permanent?? I believe so because as long as the present Gov is focus on those issues, they are not seeing the real thing brewing behind the scene. Even a blind man can see that Globalisation have remove a lot of boundaries, with more franchise, more foreigners, more competition and etc. This means that OUR citizen, community, ppl, MALAYSIANS in general will have to compete more and more and more so in an inflation enviroment. And yet we are worried abt race and religion which should have been behind us.

Analogy.....See if you can worry abt others or help them when you are critically ill or trying to help someone financially when you are broke.....or even improve the community in your area when you have no means of security.

This is where we are heading.....so don't be blinded .....as someone in the forum mention having our own believe system and value. Our religions have all thought us well and its now time to use this moral teaching coupled with our logical thinking to move forward.
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written by teo siew chin, September 03, 2008 11:27:22
From Socrates1 - "...but that doesn't mean we can betray Harimau !
----------------------------

Dear SKC - I think i can gauge Socrates1's reasoning in this.
He is of the opinion that it is alright for us to betray YM RPK's trust in us not to endanger his liberty by our comments
but it is NOT alright to betray Harimau's trust in MT not to reveal who he is when he posts dangerous crap.

So basically it's ok for YM RPK to take the heat becos of our comments but no way hose our names must be revealed cos it'll mean we have to take the heat too!

And heck, all those nasty comments could even have been from the cyber-troopers in disguise!
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written by skc, September 03, 2008 11:42:54
written by skc, September 02, 2008 | 13:40:53

Dear TSC,
That is why I have posted yesterday "written by skc, September 02, 2008 | 13:40:53
The actual thing here, I believe, is that people are scare that admin might publish their name also, so much for standing up and be counted when it matters. Lol
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written by teo siew chin, September 03, 2008 11:45:17
Dear Socrates1 - I am all for expressing of opinions whether similar to mine or not. It is the HOW that I may object to. You and I can be considered as 'fighting' now, and we do so with civility, with not even one 4-letter word used, right? And if the occasion permits, we can sit down and have a chin-way while teh-tariking even, right? smilies/grin.gif
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written by skc, September 03, 2008 11:46:28
It is great and fine while other people fight our battle for us, it is also fine when others put their life on the line fighting for what we perceive as our right, but when it comes to just naming, OMG, not me, leave me out of it. YOU BETRAY ME.
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written by teo siew chin, September 03, 2008 11:47:10
Dear SKC - but to be fair, i can understand the fear cos heh, it aint no fun being 'interrogated' more so 'jailed' by 'unreasonable' methods smilies/grin.gif
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written by skc, September 03, 2008 11:49:46
Better Malaysia with better Malaysian first ?
Dear YM RPK,
Sorry to say that the end of the journey is still a long way off for you. Not to say I am not happy with it, in fact you are stuck for a while here and I can continue to enjoy your writing. Hahahaha.
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written by skc, September 03, 2008 11:55:26
Dear TSC,
Sometimes a person has to do what a person has to do, the cost is irrelevant. That is a Chinese says that goes like this (I think) :-

Something cannot do (Even with the best of intension)
And other must be done (Regardless of cost)

Or some shit like that, my Chinese is not too good.
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written by HeeHaw, September 03, 2008 11:58:26
Pete,

you could just file a complaint with the Syariah Court, saying this fellow is fitnah-ing you with such a serious thing. They'll then have to investigate, and finding you innocent, the fellow will have to be punished with some strokes of the whip smilies/smiley.gif You would literally have caught him with his pants down. Bet he never thought of THAT!
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written by teo siew chin, September 03, 2008 11:59:54
I have been with MT for only about 2 years but have read YM RPK's articles on how and when he was ISAed those years back.
It was a painful read, frightful even.
But despite all the sufferings he and his beloved family have to go through, it has never ever stopped YM RPK's quest for truth, justice and exposure of corruption.
He constantly stands in harm's way for us, the rakyat of Malaysia,
and he is doing his bestest for a better nation, for a Malaysia for Malaysians and for that we have a lot to thank him for.

Dear SKC - i can understand your chinese shit thanks smilies/grin.gif
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written by Rhan, September 03, 2008 14:19:59
Dear tsc n skc

Can’t stand to read how you two masturbate yourself to self-orgasm, can I join?

When the media mention again the most influential person in Asia, would the name tsc or skc included?

The authority concern is on RPK article or our immature comment?

Apart from RPK, the MT crowd puller is the very articulate comment like those from tsc, skc or the rough one from fft and harimau?

Just in case the worst do happen, would MT in no hesitation to submit all the commenters name to the authority?

I think what Socrates1 mean is that the name disclosure action would cause MT a price too. Is it that difficult to understand?

What is wrong if I scare the admin to publish my name?

Is my writing done in a civility manner?

Don’t you think Jeff Ooi blog is a better choice for you both?

Lastly, shall we stop here?
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written by SocratesI, September 03, 2008 15:21:22

Dear SKC & Teo Siew Chin,

I would have no problem at all having a chin-wag with you over a teh tarik, anytime.

Rhan has summed up my point, and I have said I support the banning of Harimau as his remark is racist and offensive, and is a travesty of the freedom of speech, IN MY OPINION, but I will defend to the end harimau's right to express what he thinks, AND also any Arab's right to sue him for every RM he has got, at the same time. There is recourse, legal and otherwise (Ban from site) for Harimau's remarks.

The difference is that I also do not think Superadmin should just disclose Harimau's name without his permission, OR, a court order.

You 2 expound on being human and human values, but may I ask by whose definitions ?? Yours ?? I would hate to live in a society where we have to live to YOUR definition of a human being ! That is so dictatorial of you guys !

There are always consequences for our actions and words, spoken or written. Some of us may have different ideas as to the timing and value of these repercussions, and all of us come from different circumstances, so I am being reasonably accomodating to say that Harimau can keep his identity secret if that is his choice, and if you SKC, and TSC, want to make known your names and broadcast your bravado, you are also most welcome to do so, BUT YOU SHOULD NEVER IMPOSE ... NEVER IMPOSE your values on other people, or you will be as despotic, and dictatorial as Maha-Shithead himself ! Congratulations on matching his distinction !!

I don't mind stopping here at all, Rhan, but some of them may not have been enlightened enough and want to carry on, and I am willing to assist them in seeing the light.

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written by batsman, September 03, 2008 15:50:52
I must say some of the actions taken by MT since RPK no longer exercised control over it has been disturbing. It seems to me MT is suffering bureaucratic arthritis even before its time. MT was started with its audience in mind (if I am not wrong). The MT admin should bear in mind that even in soccer, the most skilful players cannot help committing fouls. This is the nature of the game – if you want to be effective, you have to risk crossing the line each and everytime you play. Most of the magic is at the margins. MT admin must therefore handle the margins well. Being fearful of crossing the line means staying well below the line. This is called bureaucratic arthritis. No arthritic sportsman can ever hope of competing for medals at the Olympics.

The magic of RPK is also the way he plays at the margins. He is master of the art. MT admin must learn from RPK if they are to fill his shoes. So far it doesn’t look good. Blaming commentators is not incorrect, but then again it is not altogether correct either.
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written by teo siew chin, September 03, 2008 16:47:39
"Blaming commentators is not incorrect, but then again it is not altogether correct either."
--------------------

Dear Batsman - that really cleared it all up thanks! smilies/grin.gif

In all fairness, I believe YM RPK has never revealed any of the names of commenters to the powers-that-be. All our kesalahan was masuk-ed into his own account.

And Batsman is right in that MT-admin have big shoes to fill to walk in the Master's steps. And this time round Superadmin chanced a decision which he knew would incur the wrath of the commenters. He took a chance - good for him! Wonder whether the Master made him haul 50 buckets of water up the hill though smilies/sad.gif

Socrates1 now considers me a dictator smilies/cry.gif
Rhan now banishes me to another blog smilies/cry.gif smilies/cry.gif

I totally need a kit-kat now, maybe even 2 smilies/cheesy.gif
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written by shahidan, September 03, 2008 17:20:19
RPK has contributed immensely to our political consciousness, including his exposure of the degutting of Islam of its essence through the hypocritical practices of the religion by the powers-that-be. It takes a committed Muslim to take such a progressive stand. His articles are sharp and loaded with sarcasm, wit and irony, which qualities are much appreciated by his readers.
Every time RPK appeals for rational debate and non-abusive postings, a spate of contrite postings follow. Before long the same contrite commentators fall back into their old ways posting vulgarity and abuse in the name of freedom of speech. Bad habits are clearly hard to kick.

For instance, a dense headed writer who misses the woods for the trees asserts, “That's what Freedom of Speech is all about. It is absolute. And whether you disagree with what the author has to say or whether you think he is a raving looney you have to respect his/her right to say it.” If you believe freedom of speech is absolute and it includes abusive language and bigoted commentary, why hide behind a pseudonym, densemy?

Even advanced developed countries impose certain forms of censorship and restrictions on the freedom of speech in the media, the arts and so on, in respect of incendiary racist commentaries. In the UK, the Race Relations Act was enacted to prevent racist yobs like some of the contributors to MT from polluting the media with racist invective and bigotry. Whereas before the enactment of the RRA, advertisements for accommodation and employment, for example, could carry words like “No coloureds need apply”, but under the provisions of the RRA, this would now be deemed as violating the law and landlord/employers subjected to prosecution.

The appeal by some commentators who object to Super admin’s action with regard to a certain Harimau/teo may be because these discussants themselves are on the same frequency of abusive postings. As for the identity of Harimau being exposed, it’s no big deal really, he can find a new identity and this time he will probably have to put on his thinking cap before posting. If he is a Malaysian, he will heed cinapek’s advice that, “Remember the big picture. We can help paint a beautiful picture or destroy it. A nation is at stake.” In fact, the whole of cinapek’s comments are noteworthy and so are teo siew chin’s comments on the issue.
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written by SocratesI, September 03, 2008 18:15:32

The point is, Shahidan, whether densemy or harimau wants to divulge their identities or not is entirely up to them. Who are you to Judge ??

If they want to keep it secret whatever their reason, it is up to them, and the same goes for you.

If you want to broadcast your name and show that you challenge the powers-that-be openly, that is your choice, and you are welcome to make that choice. So, then, allow densemy and harimau to make theirs !

Do we have to behave like Shahidan to win your approval ?? Do you think we give 2 hoots about your approval ??

You are entitled to your opinion as we are to ours, and if we agree to differ so be it, nobody is "holier than thou"! That is what a CVIL SOCIETY is all about. It is not about being conformist, believe you me !

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written by MasterYoda, September 03, 2008 18:18:29
Dear skc,

I will comment this once again. I agree with the banning. Hello, I agree. I only disagree with the way it was meated out. ie. the exposing of the commentor's name. Perhaps Super admin wanted to let the other readers know that Harimau bin Abdullah is not a muslim. and that by exposing Harimau, it would teach everyone else a lesson on not stirring racial / religious tension.(Good intention, good action, WRONG implementation) but there are always two sides of the coin, when such actions are taken. Yes i guess Harimau is exposed and the readers are carefull... however...

Other readers will fear commenting from now on (on pain of being exposed).
Some of the weaker minds will start commenting mildly... and that's when the idea of freedom of speech is redefined on MT. Until the Harimau eposide 'freedom of speech' was not defined on MT.

when a banned is meated out, i strongly feel:
1. the commentor should be noted via email.
2. the comment deleted or voted down
3. a column when banned names are recorded and the reasons given.
this and a bit more of gentle reproach is much needed.

And... the people have long been under the 'repressive / oppressive' system of the current government. MT is currently, the only picture we have of how our new government will serve us when the day comes. MT is a reflection of Malaysia's New Hope... where freedom, justice and so forth are upheld, liberties are not taken away, but where crime does not escape the law. So MT better know it and work in that direction.
Super admin in my guess acted alone and did not consult the others piers/ boss... this is not good!
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written by SocratesI, September 03, 2008 19:10:34

Well put, Master Yoda, Jedi Knight ! I concur !

Superadmin has over-reacted in this case ! Looking at RPK's remark to the moderator, it is apparent that Superadmin's action is not in RPK's good books.

But what really concerns me is the fact that there are still so many amongst us who want to "FORCE" their beliefs, and Value systems down other people's throats, and try to make us conform ... sigh ... must be the long tenure of Barisan NAJIS culture that has worked itself into some of the people's sub-conscious value systems, that causes them to act in such an unreasonable and dictatorial fashion.

There is much work to be done by DSAI & PAKATAN RAKYAT to ensure and safeguard a CIVIL SOCIETY with EVERYONE'S CIVIL RIGHTS intact !! i don't envy them !

And Siew Chin, you are not a dictator, but your wanting other people to practise your value system is a dictatorial act.

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written by Rhan, September 03, 2008 19:21:43
Wow, one of the most fierce west basher now presents his thought on freedom of speech benchmarking against the west standard.

If we really want to see less religion basher or race basher comment, we should advise MT to talk less on these two issues.

Shihidan, why not you forward your advice to the right person?
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written by batsman, September 04, 2008 08:55:56
Grow up! If you want to go to "cowboy" town, take your own precautions please! Don't entrust you own security to others. MT is just giving you a lesson in real life. If you don't respect MT's security and utter things that cause it to be blocked as well as provoke racial tensions, why should MT respect yours?
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written by batsman, September 04, 2008 08:58:00
Having said that, I do feel MT admin could have handled their responsibilities better. It is not just sufficient to pay attention to getting good news articles and comments. The commentators have to be led and managed too. MT is careering between getting blocked and banning commentators. It does not seem to be getting the mix right.
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written by teo siew chin, September 04, 2008 09:35:06
Dear Shahidan

Indeed, many of us miss the woods for the trees.
And I can get totally lost!
I need you and your ilk to guide us lost ones out of the jungle.
As for YM RPK, he is wayyyy ahead of us and he's gone
bear-hunting!

Socrates1 - i will note YOUR value-system, absolutely. I sure aint gonna practice it, but i'll note it.

Batsman - MT-admin probably prefer to hand the reins back to YM RPK but you know how it is smilies/sad.gif
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written by Rhan, September 04, 2008 10:50:09
Hi Teo,

Never share with me your kit-kat huh? What a selfish bastard!

When Deng open up the China market, he said China will adopt only the good of capitalism and leave out the bad. Did he succeed? Yes and no right?

As long as the comments here could lead us to think and learn, we should feel happy about it.

Next time don’t eat alone huh! Must share share mah.
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written by SocratesI, September 04, 2008 10:59:00

Batsman,

"The commentators have to be led and managed too. MT is careering between getting blocked and banning commentators. It does not seem to be getting the mix right."

You sound just like Maha-Shithead and S*it Hamid All-Bare ! MT has the right to its own moderation policies, but managing the commentators ?? Might as well not have any commentators that do not "CONFORM" with Batsman's views, eh ??

Siew Chin,

We should respect one another's value systems and exchange and learn from forums like MT, and I respect your stand towards profanity, but not your not sharing your Kit Kat with me ! ;o)

If we all have the same value systems or have to conform to 1 value system, how boring and uninspiring this world is gonna be !

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written by teo siew chin, September 04, 2008 11:44:27
ahhh the epitome of generosity!
to share my one (1) numero uno satu kit-kat with sooooo many - errrr let me think about it first, k smilies/grin.gif and Rhan probly gets the smallest piece for calling me a ******* but heh, sticks & stones may break my bones but....

Yo Socrates1 - operative word is 'banning' and not 'managing' and just for a lark, hows about we ask Superad between Batsman and you, who will be 'banned' smilies/grin.gif.
Ok sudah lah - do i need to go stand in a corner now? smilies/tongue.gif
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written by teo siew chin, September 04, 2008 12:16:36
oh.. and just so you know, if i sit with a trucker, i can profane just as good.
and in multiple languages even!
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written by shahidan, September 04, 2008 17:30:40
SocratesI, wrote:

’The point is, Shahidan, whether densemy or harimau wants to divulge their identities or not is entirely up to them. Who are you to Judge ??’

It is perfectly understandable for commentators to want to keep their identities hidden if they want to post critical comments against the authorities. However, you can’t invoke freedom of speech as being absolute and then attack the race and religion of those you disagree with. If racism and religious bigotry are major ills in our society, and I doubt anyone will dispute that, then clearly indulging in racist and bigoted attacks do not help cure the ailment but only worsens it because it invites tit for tat exchanges and certainly does not endear the reader on the receiving end to the race/religion of the person writing the comment. Some of the racist discussants on MT spew their perverted views not because they seek to understand the problems and thereby seek solutions so that we may become a more progressive, cohesive and developed nation, but they rather indulge in abuse and couldn’t care less about the consequences because they are anonymous.

Furthermore, consider the contradiction of the champions of absolute freedom of speech. When a moron like Ismail Ahmad makes an incendiary racist comment, they are up in arms about it. Why do they not take the position that freedom of speech is absolute and the racist politician is entitled to his view and is merely exercising his right to speak and that they will defend his right to make such insensitive remarks?

It is legitimate to reprimand and condemn this racist politician because his comments insult and hurt the feelings of a sizeable segment of our compatriots. This clearly implies that he should exercise freedom of speech with responsibility and he is not entitled to make incendiary racist comments anymore than are the rest of us.

It is also absurd to suggest that because some of us argue for more rational debate and less abuse that this is tantamount to ‘FORCE their beliefs, and Value systems down other people’s throats.’

Would you consider RPK’s appeal as forcing his beliefs and value systems down your throat when he writes: “Maybe now you readers will be careful with what you post lest, again, we suffer the same fate. You readers will have to be more responsible with what you post to avoid future action by the government.”

“Wow, one of the most fierce west basher now presents his thought on freedom of speech benchmarking against the west standard.” Says Rhan. Actually it is the exponents of freedom of speech who benchmark the West as their source. I was merely pointing out that even in the West there are limits imposed by law. In any case I have always praised the freedoms of speech, religion and other rights which were fought for and won by the labour movements in the West. You can hardly describe me as a basher of the West just because I oppose colonialism and imperialism which is the root cause of conflict and poverty around the globe.
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written by SocratesI, September 04, 2008 18:15:19

Shahidan,

I would argue that ahMad Ismail should be free to speak whatever in on his mind and yes, free speech is absolute ... but the consequences need to be borne also !

So rather than coercing and "managing" peoplespeak, rather let them talk by all means, anything and everything on their minds, but they ultimately will have to be responsible for what they say, as a direct consequence of what they say !

You are just trying to force your idea of "rational debate with less abuse" onto others, and this is totally unacceptable. This is what Barisan NAJIS is doing with their "Guided Democracy" - by whose guidance, and whose standards ??

Why should we debate on your terms, Shahidan ?? Who gives you the authority to do so ?? Some dictator ?? You think you are on moral high ground to say this about free speech ?? I beg to differ !! We should be given free rein and you make what you can of it. Even RPK respectfully "SUGGESTS" to his readers to be careful about what we post. He doesn't IMPOSE it like you are wont to do !

There are many laws out there for defamation etc. but I don't interpret the existence of these laws as limiting free speech. Rather, I interpret them as the Bastions of Free Speech, with consequences, and sure, responsibilities, but totally and absolutely FREE SPEECH nonetheless !!

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written by SocratesI, September 04, 2008 18:15:58

"is" not "in" typo
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written by teo siew chin, September 04, 2008 20:14:19
"....they rather indulge in abuse and couldn’t care less about the consequences because they are anonymous."
--------------------------------------

Precisely! thereby the dictum "Name them and shame them!"

======================================================= ====
"...free speech is absolute ... but the consequences need to be borne also !"
----------------------

Precisely! One shall be named and shamed!
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written by Sofiyant, September 04, 2008 22:03:08
Pete, I realy dono wat to say about how cheaply Muslim religion has been put down by majority group of this country who believe they are greater muslim then prophet Mohamed. Wat a joke!!! This people are insult's to muslim religion.smilies/cry.gif
No one will take your challenge mate, not coz u r arogant but bcoz u r a true muslim and wonderful Malaysian. Atleast we have someone who got guts to tell what is muslim religion - trullysmilies/smiley.gif
The Syed u mention is not any Syed, he just using tat name bcoz he fill using it will make him greater and higher standard. He is true UMNO man atleastsmilies/smiley.gif
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written by batsman, September 05, 2008 09:34:13
Socrates - Every physical entity has a limit beyond which they break or are destroyed. When ideas have an impact on the physical world, they must have a limit too. If you don't impose a limit on your ideas you are essentially saying they don't have an impact on the physical world. By this argument - you are irrelevant. QED
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written by batsman, September 05, 2008 09:51:14
BTW Socrates, you sound intellectually impaired too. Since when has "led and managed" meant forcing people to subscribe to one's views? Intellectual impairment can lead to psychological impairment. Let my advice "lead and manage" you in taking corrective action please. heeheehee
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written by SocratesI, September 05, 2008 10:25:17

Batsman,

You are welcome to limit your few and far between ideas, in fact, you are welcome to limit them to yourself, too, as I am quite certain the world will no doubt be a better place for that favour you have done us !!

How can society and the world improve if we were encouraged to "limit our ideas" ??!! What a LAUGHABLE and NAIVE whim (not worthy of evencalled a "thought"!!) !!

If we were to limit ourselves, we should SCRAP the OLYMPICS by your line of highly defective logic, batsman !!

"Leading & managing" involves unsolicited censorship and that limits free speech and human endeavour, so that in itself is a very dangerous route for Malaysia to take. But I am of course talking to a complete nincompoop who refuses to understand that !

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written by shahidan, September 05, 2008 16:05:06
SocratesI’s justification for the notion that we should be allowed to abuse and engage in racist postings on the grounds that ‘free speech is absolute’ and any appeal to inject rationality and respect for fellow citizens of different races/religions as being tantamount to coercion is clearly flawed, inaccurate and illogical.. He qualifies his call for absolute free speech with, ‘…but the consequences need to be borne also!’ Precisely because ‘the consequences need to be borne’ that we must exercise some self-restraint. After we all engage in tit- for-tat hate commentaries against each other’s ethnicities/religious beliefs and the like because we believe we should have the absolute right to say what we like by engaging in the kind of racist comments that now dominate MT’s commentaries sections, are the consequences not totally predictable? You obviously want to have your cake and eat it too. Building solidarity and respect for each other requires effort and is much harder to do than creating division, enmity and hatred.

Just because you have the power to spit, you don’t go around spitting anywhere you like. In a restaurant during a meal, out of respect for other patrons you don’t spit unless if you happen to be an ignorant lout. By the same token, though you have the power of speech, civilized norms require you to exercise restraint and not say hurtful things to others, unless, of course, if you happen to be an ignorant lout. This incidentally is not with reference to power holders who are by virtue of their power over others fair game, though here too critical analysis is preferable to abuse.

SocratesI also asserts: ‘…let them talk by all means, anything and everything on their minds, but they ultimately will have to be responsible for what they say, as a direct consequence of what they say !’ Now enlighten us how anonymous bloggers are to be ‘ultimately responsible for what they say’? The consequence of their stirring the racism pot will be borne by others and not the racist bloggers who exercise unrestrained free speech.

The only sanction available is to ban them or have the threat of a ban hanging over them. As for the ignorant lout who was banned for his offensive postings over a period of time, instead of acknowledging that it was just desserts, SocratesI is appealing for him/her to be allowed to pollute MT’s commentaries sections further. And please note his abusive comments were always voted up by his fellow morons.

Is it not illogical to suggest that, ‘You are just trying to force your idea of "rational debate with less abuse" onto others, and this is totally unacceptable.’? I am arguing a position to make MT even more effective as a tool of information and raising political consciousness through intelligent and rational debate. In arguing such a position, it is absurd to suggest that I am forcing my ideas. I could equally well argue that you are forcing your ideas of irrational debate and abuse down the throats of those who think differently from you, and that is unacceptable.

The terms of the debate should be in accordance with standards rooted in our culture and value system and one of the fundamental underpinnings of this is to respect each other and help each other better our society so that we and those who come after us can optimize their full potential as part of a common humanity.

One final brief observation on SocratesI’ comments. He brings up a totally irrelevant point in respect of blogosphere when he argues, ‘There are many laws out there for defamation etc. but I don't interpret the existence of these laws as limiting free speech.’ How do you bring these defamation laws to bear on those who defame at will when they write anonymously?
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written by SocratesI, September 05, 2008 17:03:17

Have you ever thought deeply enough in that organ within your skull that you call a brain, Shahidan, and ask yourself, why is it that Blogs like Malaysia Today ALLOW bloggers to register under pseudonyms and stay anonymous while saying their piece ??

In the alternate media, such as Blogs, free speech is very much encouraged almost to a fault, and further fueled by the PRECISE fact that the bloggers can say what they want, anonymously !! If anything, it is Blogs like Malaysia Today who are trying to fan the flames of DEMOCRACY with first encouraging free speech ! A very noble pursuit indeed, and necessary, to set the foundation of a CIVIL SOCIETY !

Superadmin probably came in with experience from the traditional media and that was why he/she reacted the way he did, and was chastised by RPK in being called "Brainless". We all learn from our mistakes.

I shall try to keep this brief. My second point is I am not imposing or forcing my ideas of irrational debate and abuse down the throats of those who think differently from me, but I am trying my best to keep the Malaysia Today Blog to be as OPEN as possible, so that even not so educated "louts" and others who do not have such opportunities in being highly educated as yourself can still come forth and TRY and express their views ! Who are we to call them louts anyway ?? The one that points his finger at others and calls them louts, has 4 other fingers pointing back at himself !!

You, on the other hand want to force your idea of rational debate with less abuse on everyone at Malaysia Today, which in most Fascist regimes, and dictatorial countries, this is how it starts out ... REGULATION, then POLICING, then, PERSECUITION of the non-conformists, and then INCARCERATION or worse !

Whilst i am trying my best to keep Malaysia Today as OPEN as possible, people like you want to impose your moral standards upon others and deny other people who think and act differently from participating in discourse. That is the essential difference between what we are arguing about. Me, for access and expression of the MASSES notwithstanding education background, values, race, colour or creed, and there you people go tg to only allo certain TYPE of people into the Blog, that YOU APPROVE of. If that is not dictatorship, what is it ??!!

Also, I supported Harimau's ban as fitting punishment for his racist transgression against the Arabs, but I am against Superadmin revealing his name, for then what RPK has started and built up as a FORUM for free speech and encouraged by letting bloggers come in anonymously has been shattered by Superadmin in ONE FELL SWOOP !

Consequences are, next time, only bloggers who are more educated and who behave like you and Teo and SKC will access Malaysia Today and you all can all agree with one another all the time ! Ho hum ... how boring ! Malaysia Today will "pay" for what Superadmin did in revealing the name, and not for banning him. So will CIVIL SOCIETY and free speech, then some segments of Malaysian society is going to not express themselves and Malaysia Today and will lose touch with certain parts of Malaysia.

If Malaysia Today wants to embrace the tenets of traditional media then all the bloggers that come on line they should register with their real names and IC numbers but can use a pseudonym. Do you want that, RPK ??!!

I think not.

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written by batsman, September 05, 2008 17:16:36
Socrates - You are obviously an avid supporter of the rank commercialism of American MBA programmes. Using the obscene and vulgar ideas of US ra-ra cheerleaders may take you far in Microsoft or Intel, but in politics and philosophy, it just shows up your bankruptcy. Your pathetic Americanism is so obvious to me. I don;t know if others can see it too.

BTW, even in the Olympics, sportmen know there are limits. That is why they have to undergo drug tests.
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written by SocratesI, September 05, 2008 18:04:07

Batsman,

I was educated in Britain but don't let that make you think I am infused with British thinking either ! How quaint ! First time I have been accused of having "American" ideas !! Also, I have worked in local, Japanese, Korean, British, American, French, Swiss, Dutch, Singaporean, etc. companies before, most of whom are listed somewhere in the world.

i would prefer to think that I am a citizen of the world and I am for a world without borders, though that may take some time in coming and no,i don't think i think like an American.

For the first part, I am anti-Zionist which America is not, and Ithink for you to just "classify" me in your simplistic mind, may be a task beyond your ken.

BTW, the Olympics is all about BREAKING LIMITS (Olympic records, world records), and setting new ones to be broken in the future, without performance-enhancing drugs, of course ! How weird your brain works in thinking the Olympics is for maintaining limts or the status quo !

How is the Human Race going to improve unless its limits are being challenged ?? Have you not heard of the saying,"Necessity is the MOTHER of ALL INVENTION" ?? If the Earth was populated by people like you and Shahidan, Nazis and FASCISTS would rule the world and we would never discover the theory of relativity etc. Where is your spirit ??

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written by batsman, September 05, 2008 18:52:42
Socrates - pls la! Positive things do not need limits. Destructive ones do! Such simple thing oso cannot understand!

Let me challenge you with a further extention - sometimes too much positive things can oso be destructive - kapish?? heeheehee
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written by SocratesI, September 05, 2008 19:14:22

Ah, but Batsman, who are you to say which is positive and which is negative ?? There we go impinging our world view onto other people again !!

Frankly, I am partial to the Yin Yang philosophy where there is no such thing as an extreme that exists in this realm. -275 degrees Kelvin is absolute zero and we can prove it mathematically and theoretically all motion of the atoms etc. ceases at that temperature, but so far we have not achieved it yet ... maybe one day ... then the paradigm of the Universe would change as well.

Take infinity and negative infinity in Maths. Can we really fathom such extremes ?? And if space time is curved, then infinity and negative infinity would be "looped back" and then what do we get in this space-time continuum ??

What is destructive by your standards may not be by others, and what may be positive by your standards again may not be for others. That is the whole point !

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written by SocratesI, September 05, 2008 19:15:08
1273 degrees Kelvin ... typo not -275
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written by SocratesI, September 05, 2008 19:15:30
typo again -273 not 1273
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written by bakas, September 05, 2008 20:26:46
I have been following these interesting discourses on free speech by all of you, and I must say that both parties do have some points.

I believe that free speech should have 'no boundary' in the sense that, for a civil society, the free speech must also be civilized and does not border to rabbles and babbles of a drunkard or a lunatic. When one resorts to cursing and downgrading others, it’s just wrong. When he incites hatred among others and creates uneasiness which le*** to chaos, which is also wrong. No way can two wrongs make a right.

But, I also believe the banning could have been handled better, Super admin could have just banned Harimau Bin Abdullah and not resort to claim 'an eye for an eye'. Harimau may have endangered MT, but to expose his real identity is uncalled for. What was the whole point of doing that? Instilling fear, so that we will be 'careful' when we write?

In any house, of course there must be order. And all visitors or family members (if you think you are one of MT) must adhere to the rules. But when a visitor or family member errs, you do not resort to 'halau' them out, right? You will chastise them, yes, and if he still insists on his uncouth behaviour, then you can show him the door. But to humiliate someone like that is just not right. By all means, be courteous and show him the door and don't open it anymore if you don’t want to.

"When fear dictates, logic flies".

Compare to what the message of truth does, it liberates people, rather than shackles them in fear.

We can of course, agree to disagree, in a CIVILIZED MANNER.



Peace to all smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif

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written by SocratesI, September 05, 2008 21:37:13

Finally a sane voice in the wilderness ! Thanks, Bakas. Actually for those who thionk they are fearless daredevils who register their real name and blog here and expect everyone else to live according to their coventional standards, maybe should try turning to the MSM instead and the brick & mortar world.

This Blogging world may be too "wild" and unbridled for them, the fainthearted !

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written by Berean, September 06, 2008 03:43:48
Guys and Gals.... This debate is taking too much time to read !! My view... IT WAS INAPPROPRIATE TO GIVE OUR HARIMAU'S aka. That should always have remained confidential. That is how much all of us trust RPK and MT's team.

Questions
How do we know that Harimau registered with his/her real name???
How does MT verify info or names etc given to them?
WHAT MAKES US TRUST THAT MT (Superadmin) will NEVER give our "registered personal names" away to Shaffee Abdullah or members of the Gov?? smilies/angry.gif
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written by Rhan, September 06, 2008 12:55:04
Hi Batsman, referring to your comment on DAP.

No doubt Lu Xun is one of the greatest writers in the twentieth century China but all of his writing is done during a period when China was in the weakest form in term of economy, science, government system, supremacy of it soil, and a period when the imperialist West showing off one of their ugliest “fashion trend”, to colonise and openly rob the poor using gun powder and battle ship. What I am trying to say is, Lu Xun wrote with a purpose.

Chinese culture is not exclusive, it is exactly the opposite, is inclusive but feudalistic in nature which is common among culture with long history. Don’t want to go that far on how a foreign religion Buddhism and the west ideology of democracy and communism is being adopted to become the Chinese core belief, we can read the struggle and rivalry between the more Chinese culture bias Chinese and LKY, we would found out who is inclusive and who is not.

If UMNO goon is morally right and less corrupted, then MCA inclusiveness is one of the major contribution to the build up of a success Malaysia. What a waste of 22 long years under the governance of one selfish and greedy politician.

I think we both should agree that DAP exclusiveness has nothing to do with Chinese culture, it is kind of western mentality, seem open but look down on others.
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written by shahidan, September 06, 2008 16:07:05
SocratesI, you are sounding more and more ridiculous and childish with each posting advocating the freedom to abuse tagline and would do well to take your own advice by using the ‘organ within your skull that you call a brain ‘. Practice what you preach. If you agree with a free for all, as you so strongly do, how can you possibly accuse those you disagree with tou of imposing or forcing their ideas down your throat? How can you accuse me of being dictatorial for taking a position on how we can advance rational debate? Surely, your response to my comments for non-incendiary anti-racist rational debate should be to respect my right to express my views against racists who pollute MT instead of accusing me of imposing my ideas, being dictatorial, etc. Or are you only tolerant of comments that are abusive and consider abuse to be a qualification for being a contributor to MT and in blogosphere at large?

You also distort my comments and give it a totally different slant. I have no where suggested that there should be educational qualifications for expressing one’s views on MT, or anywhere else for that matter. It is you who suggest that my reference to ignorant louts equals lack of educational qualifications. In fact one can be an ignorant lout regardless of educational qualifications. I have referred to racist louts and racist yobs that pollute MT. It is you who mentioned ‘not so educated "louts" and others who do not have such opportunities in being highly educated as yourself can still come forth and TRY and express their views !’ Please do not attribute to me a position I have not taken.

You also ask, ‘Who are we to call them louts?’ This kind of value-free position is a no brainer. Let me quote from the ignorant lout harimau from one of his postings (courtesy of Johntyo). He wrote on Aug 24 2008, “Arabs are mentally sick animals, and bolehland people are blind, and no better” In your cockeyed value-free world, we are not qualified to call him/her an ignorant lout even as he equates Malaysians with mentally sick animals as are all Arabs. This kind of abuse may be acceptable to nincompoops like you (I am merely referring to the four fingers pointing back at you when you called another discussant a nincompoop), but I think we need to raise the bar of the quality of our debate in blogosphere. We will then be taken more seriously.

It is also idiocy to suggest that “… bloggers who are more educated and who behave like you and Teo and SKC will access Malaysia Today and you all can all agree with one another all the time ! Ho hum ... how boring !” Who says by opposing abuse we are proposing we all agree with one another all the time. We may agree on this issue and disagree on a whole bunch of other issues, which is what robust debate is all about. If there was no racist abuse, it does not follow that the debate will be less robust. Conversely, even as I disagree with you on this issue I agree with you on your anti-Zionist stand.

Why do you find it so difficult to accept the notion that we should argue and debate passionately without being disrespectful to each other? If we continue to debate in the language of racists we will remain in the cesspool of racism. If you want to develop civil society you need to set an example by being civil to each other.
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written by batsman, September 06, 2008 16:31:05
Socrates – Going by what you say, if something is destructive to one yet is positive to another, then isn’t it time to take sides? What MT considers destructive, you consider positive. What MT considers positive, you consider destructive. So what are you still doing here? Appealing your cause? Begging for an audience? Intellectual wanking? What? heeheehee
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written by batsman, September 06, 2008 16:34:29
Hi Rhan - Guess I have to agree too.
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written by SocratesI, September 06, 2008 16:43:01

So by the same logic, you are a lout and I a nincompoop ! i can live with that !

You don't seem to comprehend very well what I said, or perhaps you choose to be argumentative for the sake of doing so. BTW, you have every right to do that if that is what you wish to do !

And you have every right to argue for "rational debate" (what is rational by your reckoning may not be rational for others, though), which is not what I was so dead against, if you read with comprehension. the argument I was forwarding is to allow every Tom, Dick, and Harry, into Malaysia Today, and even if they are such unenlightened ones like Harimau, so that Malaysia Today would be THE place to surf to and blog for it has the TOTAL PULSE of Malaysia.

By being over-zealous as you suggest to only limit rational debate, we shall miss out "reading" the minds of all those who do not debate rationally, and yet can cast a vote, and we shall not have any inkling about what they think or feel. That is the beginning of the end for MT as an open forum.

I accept the notion that you can argue and debate passionately without being disrespectful of one another, but I also accept the notion there are many more out there who may not want to follow your "guidelines" as you laid out here, and I still want to make their acquaintance and get to know them and what makes them tick.

It is this insatiable curiosity I have, so thanks, but no thanks, I am still arguing for a MT for FREE SPEECH for the MASSES ! But as I am consistent, you are most welcome to state your stand differently ! That is the essence of free speech ! You can state your stand, but it does not mean I will not disagree with you. Simple, isn't it when you look at it this way ??

Perhaps the Star or NST or Utusan may be better places for your "rational debate". The Blogosphere is FULL of Debate regardless of whether it is rational or otherwise ! So cool !
205 comments and going up ... must be a record of sorts !
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written by SocratesI, September 06, 2008 16:52:37

Batsman's comments have deteriorated in terms of content quality ... tsk tsk ...

Simple example in point. If the farmers need rain for their crops at this time of year and especially now after El Nino has left the fields high and dry, but you want to have a picnic and wants good weather, then are you going to say that the rain that came down was destructive to your picnic ?? Yes, of course !

But the farmers will say the rain was a blessing from Allah so that their crops will grow and they can feed their families ! Same rain, different result !

So if it was MT going on the picnic, it should ban the rain as it is "destructive" for the MT picnic ??

Anyway, it was not MT's fault but Superadmin, and it is human to err, so let us move on to a new topic, shall we ?? This is getting boring, flogging a dead horse !

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written by batsman, September 06, 2008 20:27:33
Socrates - digressing are we? Shifting the goal post? Moving from "LIMITS" to "NEEDS" of farmers or picnickers? Are you sure your brain can handle your own shiftiness? How do you like my goodbye present? heeheehee.
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written by teo siew chin, September 06, 2008 20:52:47
Dear Shahidan - you tell em and you tell em good man! Though it probably will be lost on someone who is shifty smilies/wink.gif
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written by Rhan, September 06, 2008 21:59:35
I agree that Shahidan is hardly a basher of the West, just like I never see FFT as one who bash Islam, he is merely pointing out the bad of Muslim.

I am trying to read and understand the last few comments from both Socrates1 and Shahidan and to tell frankly, I don’t know what you two talking about. If this is what you call civil and fill with respect debate, it lack passion and emotion and the language is too deep.

MT is here to engineer a revolution of mind, the message must reach the mass. In order to attract as much readers from different level of society, some uncivil language include profanities is acceptable. Otherwise it doesn’t serve the purpose.

If RPK talk like a university lecturer, I think not many are interested in his speech. The same apply to MT.
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written by SocratesI, September 06, 2008 23:12:52

And that is why so few people read and comment under Dr. Azly's column, Rhan ! Unfortunately Shahidan wanted to go in deep, so I thought I should humour him. Just as batsman is the one that is being shifty, shifting from destructive and positive to "goalposts", once he has NO ANSWER to the fact that something as simple and universal as rain can be "destructive" to picnickers but positive to farmers !

Therefore, what is looked upon (comments in MT) as destructive by some, can also just as easily be interpreted as positive by others. Hence we should let everyone come onto MT with no conditions or exceptions ! Which is what I have been talking about all this while.

If we put conditions on such as Shahidan's "rational debate" that will be the beginning of the end for MT.

We have to be wary of not only the outrightly evil like Barisan NAJIS, but also these well-meaning crusaders, like tsc, skc, shahidan, (I wouldn't classify batsman here as he is too shifty to be a crusader), who try to set conditions for people like us bloggers who come into MT. They are just as dangerous, and much more insidious !

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written by batsman, September 07, 2008 13:28:46
Socrates - Going by your own reasoning that one man's meat is another's poison, you sound a bit hurt by my comments. Sorry if this is the case. Long ago, i learnt that pain is a better teacher than praise as long as it is not excessive. That is why the old teachers with their canes were much more effective than teachers today. So don't agonise too much. heeheehee I am just saying - be an upright person, don't get too emotional or too egoistic if you want to play the margins. If you are too egoistic, some people may be tempted bringing you down a peg or two. heeheehee. bye-bye!
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written by shahidan, September 08, 2008 02:38:55
In answer to my question to SocratesI, “Are you only tolerant of comments that are abusive and consider abuse to be a qualification for being a contributor to MT…”

The answer by SocratesI is clearly a resounding YES when he asserts: “If we put conditions on such as Shahidan's "rational debate" that will be the beginning of the end for MT.” In his view it is the abusive racist commentaries that keep MT alive and therefore were there to be a preponderance of non-abusive comments this will spell the end, or the beginning of the end, of MT.

I wonder if the apologists for racist and abusive comments have noticed that though there are over a million hits a day on MT only a few hundred comments are to be found on the site as a whole. Most who visit MT read a host of writers on the site who offer an alternative point of view to the mainstream media plugging the official line. It is these massive numbers of visitors to the site who constitute the bulk of the voters from amongst MT’s readers and who value the news and information so that they may make informed decisions as voters. God help us if these voters were to rely on the couple of hundred commentators who think heaping abuse on the race and religion of those they disagree with is a right that should not be questioned. They scorn the very notion that someone should suggest we raise the bar of the debate among fellow citizens on MT through critical thinking and respect for the race and religion of fellow discussants. To suggest such a course is deemed to be dictatorial and a form of coercion.

Respect for the race and religion of fellow discussants does not mean that leaders who use religion as a tool to divide and are hypocrites in their religious practice should not be thoroughly exposed as such exposure is in fact a regular theme with RPK, Dr Azly Rahman and Farish Noor in their writings on MT.

In championing absolute free speech, including the right to racist and abusive comments, SocratesI also suffers from double standards and hypocrisy. Because he disagrees with some of us, particularly tsc, skc, (batsman just gets away with it) and myself, he deems us to be just as dangerous as “Barisan NAJIS” and “…much more insidious…” Wow! I rest my case.

This discussion has taken us off tack from RPK’s article because of the ban on an ignorant lout. Shows you how distracting racist abusive comments can be. We will probably take this issue up on another occasion as it is not going to go away too soon.
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written by SocratesI, September 08, 2008 09:39:07

Batsman, sticks and stones will break my bones but your aimless comments will never hurt me. Thanks for your concern and your unsolicited advice nonetheless.

Shahidan, Unlike you, I have full confidence in my fellow Malaysia Today bloggers & readers to know what is good and what is offensive material. Look at Harimau's votes for e.g.

Given that confidence, then naturally, I am all for a Malaysia Today that encourages Free Speech, and you, tsc, skc and batsman are more than welcome on the MT site as well as all the others. You see, my formula leaves no one out, whereas yours would preclude others who do not "qualify" in YOUR opinion for "rational debate". If that is not dictatorship or censorship, then what would that be called ??

Barisan NAJIS has always used the same PLOY to MUZZLE the RAKYAT, saying this issue is "too sensitive" to be discussed, or "too racial" or "irrelevant" ! That is Barisan NAJIS' interpretation of "rational debate" then and that would garner your support and approval ?!

So, that is why doing it your way spells the beginning of another Barisan NAJIS regime, only this time, Shahidan, TSC, SKC gets to define "rational debate" and that gives them the right for their holier-than-thou attitude to DENY others of their voice or opinions that is different from yours ?? Most INTOLERANT !!

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written by teo siew chin, September 08, 2008 10:33:28
Dear Socrates1

No where in any of my comments or those of Shahidan, SKC or Batsman, reflected objection to free speech.
What I object to is a free-flow of empty mindless racist abusive comments done under (2) anonymity AND (2) that endangers the freedom of YM RPK.
What would my calling you a 'recalcitrant shifty cantankerous specimen' accomplish ? not that i am calling you such mind you.
What happened to taking responsibility for one's own words and actions?
Or did my parents teach me wrong?
Or did my schooling teach me wrong?

And if one can have a 'vulgar rational debate', heh i'm all for it!
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written by SocratesI, September 08, 2008 11:48:18

If calling me that would give you pleasure just like batsman thinks he derives pleasure from thinking he has gotten under my skin, you are most welcome to do so, as I know who I am and what I am, and what you say will provoke some self examination totally devoid of emotion, and that is it.

What you learnt from school or your parents isn't wrong, just don't lump those values onto others, and DEMAND they act like you, capische ??

I am going to assume you guys don't get it anyway, and 1 of you do, perhaps, but just want to have his last word on it and that is also cool with me ! Ciao !

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written by skc, September 09, 2008 11:59:16
Dear All,
Wa you people are still at it ? Give it a break lah. Should we not be polite first and foremost ?
Dear SocratesI,
Ideal is fine and good but sometimes sooner or latter you need to deal with reality, wake up do not be the next bodowi. There are certain consequences we cannot accept regardless of the best of intentions.
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written by SocratesI, September 09, 2008 19:12:11

This I have to agree with you, SKC, good intentions alone not only are not quite enough, but it is precisely these good intentions that do more harm than good, when actions stemming from good intentions are performed with a lack of Knowledge.

If you look at Life analytically and from different viewpoints, you will see that these people who are friends with good intentions are actually more dangerous than your worst enemy ! They mean well, and you know they mean well, but the end result may not result in your happiness other than the homile, "It's the thought that counts !".

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written by skc, September 10, 2008 10:28:32
Dear SocratesI,
For once we should not go to too fine a point on this issue (or any other for that matter). I am happy that we do have different view points on certain things. If all of us will to share the same view point all the time, then life will be not as fun. Imagine have nothing to disagreed on here in MT, ahhhhhh what will I do for the rest of my life ? Hahahaha, have a nice day and a great life.
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written by teo siew chin, September 10, 2008 14:51:41
Dear SKC

Dont worry lah... we here in MT may bicker and fight all the time but end of the day, we still love each other wat ... and united in the cause smilies/grin.gif
Socrates1 can really sock it to us and will probably prefer to have the last word in but heh... it's ok ... but just as a matter of curiosity, are you a member of the fairer sex? smilies/cheesy.gif
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